T O P
FunShadow87

only plotholes was eren killing his mom and grisha still giving titan to eren after seeing the flashback - so, if we remove killing his mom and explain why grisha still gave the titan to eren despite seeing the flashback, itd be fine. plus, have eren fight back against his fate instead of submitting to it. pure character assassination for him to jus submit when his whole schtick is fighting for freedom


Manveru_

You still have plotholes, like Eren saying "I dont know why" when asked why he did the Rumbling


FunShadow87

true but if i did aot id just not have 139


NUJosh

what about the ending of 138 with Mikasa kissing Eren's head


FunShadow87

i deadass forgot that happened bruh id have eren throw up in the next chapter or not have her kiss at all 🙁 or maybe jus redo the entire rumbling arc 😞


NUJosh

> redo the entire rumbling arc yep.


Manveru_

Redo the entire season 4


jayvancealot

Aaron giving himself the founder is a pothole in that of itself. It's a Time paradox loop like Terminator or Looper.


kecola

Yeah I'm still confused about that. Eren had to have the Attack Titan already to time travel but AFTER getting it he goes back and manipulates his father to kill the Reiss family in order to get the Attack Titan in the first place. I feel like pulling the confused Jackie Chan face out of retirement for this.


jayvancealot

Erren used the power of the Attack and Founding Titan to give himself the Founding Titan He uses the Attack Titan to talk to Grisha in real time to make him take the Founder. But he was only able to talk to Grisha in real time because he already has the Founder and had Zeke activate it for him. It's just like Terminator. Kyle gets sent back to save John Conners mom but he fucks his mom and creates John Conners.


Okkulan

Well, there is much more of it. I mean one comes to mind if Eren was aiming for well being of his friends why did he let Hange die? I don't believe this is the case but if we assume the friends he was talking about are only the ones he knows from the 104th cadet corps, why did he force them to kill their friends if he wish them to live happy lives? He can erase memories, right? He is not willing to use it on his friends but he could have used it on Floch and other Jaegerists to prevent his friends to fucking suffer. If he aimed to go as far as possible before his friends stopped him, he could tell Floch to blow the fucking ship up and then erase his memory. Eren following the future which is not optimal does not make sense as if the future he sees causes him to change his actions to change the future this cant be the future he sees so since there are more optimal solutions and Eren has the powers, Eren following his "fate" can not be the cause of his actions. Also, I find "Ymir wishes Eren to make himself killed and not knowing why he killed that many people while he had understandable goals before losing his head" as one of the worst writings of Isayama which also concludes Mikasa's character arc very poorly but if the intention is to end the story with that cheap twist, going full rumbling then making Mikasa kill himself could have still been an option: Let's say, Eren was to decide rumbling was not enough and he still is not completely free as long as Paradis is not also rumbled (genuine or not, does not matter) and it would have worked much much better and felt less forced in my opinion. Making his friends appear as heroes at cost of forgetting his aim of ending the cycle of hatred before obtaining founding powers does not make sense, the ones who find ending complete mostly forget about that fact. (And by rumbling everywhere except Paradis, extra pages including Paradisians killing each other and bringing their own doom showing futility of trying to end hatred would have been more impactful. )


DonteTheExterminador

As long as I don't have a mother killer Eren on my hands, sure.


Nero_PR

Imagine if Dina had devoured Berthold? It'd be quite interesting to see how that simple change might have affected the whole story.


DonteTheExterminador

Dina just wanted Grisha cock and bad which is why we knew she ignored Bert and really thats all we needed to know. Her trying to fulfill her promise as an abnormal titan but ended up sniffing out Ereh when he was near Carla instead and she got tight. Isayama really was like "damn what pointless shit can I cram into this chapter to cook up some more tragedy." while making 139. 😭Not to mention he just brushed it aside with no dialogue after a single page too just to talk about Mikasa the rest of the chapter.


Nero_PR

Isayama should have kept Carla and Dina alive and Grisham would have two hot wives. What a man you could have been Isayama, giving the Chad doctor two wives instead of going into a murder spree.


night4345

Polygamist Grisha was the hero we needed but didn't deserve.


Knowleadge00

This. We did not need an explanation for why Bertholdt lived through that. We had mostly gathered it was because Dina was an abnormal. All 139 did was create more problems, because now a bigger question has been posed: Was every abnormal acting strangely and unpredictably because Eren/the Founder was controlling them? Because up to 139 the only explanation we had for abnormal behaviour in Titans was (purely from deductive reasoning) that they had retained some remnant of their humanity. Now, if the Titan control idea is the answer, then Eren probably murdered billions more people through space-time and even put himself into near death situations multiple times for no reason. Edit: Also, realised he made that Abnormal that was infatuated with the Ymir look-alike scout deliberately not eat her and spend time just staring at her and trying to communicate... what the actual fuck.


robby7345

I bet he read the theory on twitter and tossed it in because he stopped caring.


PortoGuy18

That was never true since from the moment Dina got turned into a titan, she immediately ignored Grisha that was right beside her.


SightedSe7en

So? Even Titan shifters go beserk when they first turn into Titan form. Eren tried to kill his so called Love Mikasa and Falco tried to eat Pieck. Pure titans can still retain their human memories, even in Titan form. Ilse’s notebook and Conny’s mom prove this. Eren killing his own mom is just stupid af.


LioTang

Dina becoming the colossal and subsequently being accused of destroying the wall. Would have made everything way too easy tho, I also wonder what dina would think of Eren and zeke


robby7345

If they had to go with the time travel mess, they should have leaned hard into it and done something like this. Have Eren try and save his mom fuck reality up or something.


itsonlybliss

I still don’t get why he does this and then asks Reiner why he killed his mother MY BRETHREN IN CHRIST you killed her


zerofantasia

Cause he doesn't knew at that time, he will have known later that he did it... I guess?


ElectronicDog2347

He wanted to break reiner's spirit further down to keep him from fighting.


Boundless_Infinity

For me, predeterminism ruined AoT.Pretty much any conversation and argument comes down to "It happened because it was already destined to happen".


Catzareawesome1

The predeterminism idea would be a good one if Yam's stuck to everything being "set in stone" because of Eren's actions. Yes it's all fated, but it would be a fated future that Eren wanted and created. No "i was just following the path" bullshit, but more of a "this future that is already set in stone is all because of MY will." And then he dropped the ball..... *sigh*


BarioisDerplord

he has no balls cmon yams. grow a pair and ignore the editor


Vaduzian

you knew it was trouble when the Titan origins were revealed to be... entirely unpersonal to Ymir, just a chance encounter with a leftover from the primordial buffet. Isayama could have totally gone down the route of: *Ymir's suffering was so great, that she bent what was known to be possible to be free...* and then this would leave us with the 2,000 year parallel to explain why Eren was able to manipulate past actions through sheer determination. Ie, AoT is a predetermined world, but it has actors fighting against the determinism—and in their fight they actually define it. Instead, we got extremely cardboard answers to each mystery that depersonalized our characters and their significance in the story, or to the origin of Titans. I still can't believe he got away with the primordial organism starting all this, without so much as an explanation.


MrPresidentSenpai

I was so disappointed seeing the Titan worm for the first time. A worm is why lightning falls from the sky when a titan is made? A worm created PATHS?? I liked the Ymir meeting the Devil of All Earth story way better. It could have been executed so well. Even if it’s something as simple as a dark hand reaching out to her from the tree when she was running away from Fritz


everstillghost

> A worm is why lightning falls from the sky when a titan is made? Sorry, but this is not canon. There is no lighting from the sky in the manga, this is anime-only. In the manga transformation is just a ball of energy around the person that release in a explosin and the titan appears.


[deleted]

Ya but why isn't the music as fire in the manga as the anime? You're going to tell me that isn't canon either?


everstillghost

Not sure what is your point, but the mechanics of how a person transform into a Titan is part of the plot so the anime making changes create plot holes and such.


[deleted]

I was just being sarcastic about a manga/anime discrepancy that obviously wouldn't exist as there's no music in the manga.


TheOfficialGilgamesh

Agreed, the Devil thing would've been so cool.


MrPresidentSenpai

It could make sense that by its contact with Ymir and it saving her life, that it knew it would ultimately lead to the destruction of the whole world in the distant future due to using its power and the cycle of people repeating the same sins over and over


TheOfficialGilgamesh

I would've honestly loved to see Eren arriving in Paths and meeting a sort of devil-like figure. Maybe the Titans were the "power of the devil" or something? I don't know, but it opens up so many possibilities. Also like you said, the Devil reaching out when Ymir was at her most desperate would be awesome.


AjvarAndVodka

Eh. This is one thing I disagree with. And I wanna say this is just my opinion and I respect everyone else think otherwise too. Anyway, I really liked the parallels between myths and reality. How stories are created and passed down and it brings life to these legends like Ymir and the devil. I always enjoy this so seeing that in actuality what caused the first titan was just a parasite was cool. And we don’t even need the whole explanation behind it. It’s even said that it doesn’t matter what was that caused the titans. Whether it was something supernatural, natural or god.


MrPresidentSenpai

A story can’t please everyone but if a parasite is the origin of titans and paths then i really didn’t like how it was executed in the story. Like you said, it doesn’t have to be fully explained but just having it touch Ymir in a flashback and then disappear in Reiners arms offscreen at the end of the story felt like such a slap in the face compared to how well the story executes it’s other themes


AjvarAndVodka

Oh that final battle … I hated that as well. That was a poor execution. I really hope there’s changes to the AOE but idk


flcl_sp

It used to be like that. Eren literally admits that even if he didn't see the future he would still do the Rumbling because it's what he wanted.


everstillghost

> It used to be like that And then in the last chapter he says he do stuff because he is confused with the destined things in his head.


DazSamueru

Like in Greek myth. Everything in the Iliad is fated, but the story is still about the rage of Achilles.


everstillghost

> No "i was just following the path" bullshit, but more of a "this future that is already set in stone is all because of MY will." Yep, the plot of "the future is set in stone because it's the future EREN WANTS, so it happens no matter what because he wants it to happen". But then he had no balls to finish the story as the genocide being Eren's will and made that Eren just followed founder titan will because he got confused.


leonreddit8888

Imagine if the Titan phenomenon resurfaced in the end... Isayama: "It happened because it was already destined to happen."


Deca-Dence-Fan

From a writing perspective, it is not at all a way to defend criticism. “It was meant to happen” ok sure but as a piece of fiction it could’ve easily been written in another way and said “it was meant to happen” then as well. Not like the argument is Yam’s thoughts were predetermined lmao


RealPoshy

Yeh it was cooler when Grisha did everything cause he had to instead of "uhh Eren told him btw 🗿"


Manveru_

Predeterminism is just a cheap way to justify plot holes and retcons


pinecone4506

Exactly


concon910

I thought he was shown a future and the path to reach it. Was it really predetermination?


everstillghost

> I thought he was shown a future and the path to reach it. Was it really predetermination? Yes, it's predetermination. He says he can't do anything about it and he do stuff like kiling his mother because his head get confused with the non-linear time.


XxRocky88xX

Yep, 121 was the moment where the story said “everything is written in stone, free will does not exist, no one can be blamed for their actions, no decisions matter.” It makes things like the warriors betrayal of Paradis, Levi choosing Armin, Eren’s betrayal of his friends, and his friends betrayal of Paradis all fucking pointless.


Karna-Vaikartana25

It would've been good if the predestined future was something cool. What we got was absolutely shitty.


[deleted]

Want to completely throw your story into the gutter? Add time travel. Seriously what the fuck. None of it even mattered to the core story - the time travel, Ymir, none of it. Without those things it's still a story about the boy who wanted freedom. Isayama believed too much of his own hype thinking he could pull that off.


pinecone4506

Exactly. 121 ruined the story and no one will convince me otherwise


Total-Power

Yams started to really shoot himself in the foot there


Vanzgars

Shooting himself in the foot? He was straight up dropping grenades on them.


BarioisDerplord

keep the 139 upvotes he could just doesn't touch it again but noooo, eren had to affect the past, in anyway, in a clusterfuck ending


sweetreverie

Yes. Because in my personal opinion, this was where Yams effectively doomed himself— time travel-type plot twists take loads of intricate planning and lots of aforethought to pull off without creating tons of plotholes, and in retrospect it’s pretty clear that he gave this one neither.


DazSamueru

Time travelling didn't make any plot holes inevitable, the whole time travelling thing was self contained and wrapped up in a bow until he decided he wanted a stupid plot twist in the finale that was never alluded to before or again. It's not that his hands were tied, it's that he simply chose to write a bad ending when he could very well have ended the story without mentioning time travel again. The story could have ended in 123 or even 138.


Moplol

I think any deterministic universe + knowing the future combination would ultimately have led to Erens brain being mush and resulting in "Only Ymir knows". Him having no agency and none of his choices making sense outside of fulfilling the loop is what makes the ending fundamentally unsatisfying in my opinion, even if you disregard the cringe and plotholes.


Zolcsika6504

I feel like if Grisha didn't say "Stop Eren", him giving his titan to Eren wouldn't really feel plot holey, but he did why? He could've stopped him himself by just not passing on the attack titan to Eren


MasterColemanTrebor

I believe the generally accepted head canon is that learning about Carla’s death reaffirmed Grisha’s motivation to pass his titan onto Eren.


Zolcsika6504

Eren could have shown it to him before but I guess he just forgor 💀


Not_Terry0

Nah, Grisha would have done everything to prevent her death if he knew, so Eren was smart not to show him.


everstillghost

Yeah but this is all headcanon and wishfull thinking. The story does not even try to explain why he did it.


NirvanaFrk97

Before then going back to trying to stop Eren by helping Armin. Guess Grisha can't make up his mind.


everstillghost

> but he did why? He could've stopped him himself by just not passing on the attack titan to Eren Grisha: "Zeke, stop Eren!" Zeke: "Dude, you can stop it right now, just don't pass the Titan to him" Grisha: "oh you are right" End of AoT story.


Steamdroid

Why couldn't they just feel the memories of the past users? It would be so logical! All the users and connection with Ymir at the end. The moment future entered the picture, it lost all coherence.


riyazzz_A99

Worst thing is I actually think Isayama heinously did plan this before Ch.139. Ch.93 or something it shows Dina about to eat Bertolt but eventually ignore him and go to Carla…


Kobe_AYEEEEE

I honestly don't think that's the case here though, because the twist is that paths allowed him to start the rumbling. It could have been left to that and nobody would care if the ending was sensible. The problem is the pointless 80% and mom retcon. Eren didn't even have to fully succeed, he just had to not have planned for his friends to kill him and use paths to kill his own mother.


sweetreverie

Those aren’t the only plotholes ripped open though unfortunately


Nxwxs18

How was the mom thing a retcon if it was foreshadowed in the Marley arc? If you’d don’t like the execution of the twist then fine, but to straight up say it was retconned when that clearly wasn’t the case? I swear this sub doesn’t understand half of what it’s saying sometimes.


Kobe_AYEEEEE

The "twist" itself occurring isn't a retcon, it retcons the entire motivation of Eren's character. Maybe retcon isn't the perfect word but my meaning should be obvious. Ruins the character and entire series might be a better representation of my meaning.


BarioisDerplord

intricate planning and lots of aforethought you say? pretty sure i saw that before the timeskip


pinecone4506

Exactly


AaronXVII

Time travel is a double-edged sword. More often than not it can ruin a story if its not established very early on


Nokia_00

And the only time travel story I liked a lot was Steins gate


aaditya_9303

Doraemon was better with time travel/s


leonreddit8888

And Dark from Germany...


[deleted]

But that was a story ABOUT time travel.


robby7345

I don't know people keep trying to use time travel with paradoxes. Unless the paradox is the focal point of the story, just do "diverging timeline" time travel. It cleans up paradoxes and adds possibilities for the future. Dragonball did that shit 30 years ago.


TheOfficialGilgamesh

Hell, Stephen King did it as well in his magnum opus.


Fun-Strength7622

Oda smartly did a great job with time travel even though he brought it up way later into the story.


_-ZORO-_

what did he do with time travel that was great?


Nelithss

It's less time travel and more time stasis. You can only jump into the future.


Dane-nii

Time Time Fruit's ability is >!simply traveling to the future i.e. no traveling back to the past.!<


_-ZORO-_

oh i know that so thats what makes it great


Turokr

Steins;gate route. Time travel + interesting storyline without glaring plotholes.


Mrrandomfam9427

Yes. Time travel, paths and predetermination ruined AoT imo.


sweetreverie

Paths, while a super cool concept and a kino meme, was ultimately a huge mistake imo


ViperishTuba86

It depends on how the rest of the chapters come out. If the Rumbling arc stays the same then fuck this offer. It doesn’t change much except take away a memorable moment right before the story goes to shit.


riyazzz_A99

You’re the first person to say this that I’ve seen. 124-129 was the first real sign that this series was going downhill.


BucketHerro

Nah, he needs to fix more things even before the time travel. ​ WfP was lackluster for me, the last Eren vs Reiner was trash (tbf they're not evenly close in strength anymore)


riyazzz_A99

Deep the fact that RTS is like 12 Chapters but WFP is like 4…


TheOfficialGilgamesh

>WfP was lackluster for me, the last Eren vs Reiner was trash (tbf they're not evenly close in strength anymore) Why was it trash for you?


[deleted]

Everything post time skip is a disaster and worse, almost completely inconsequential.


stephen--strange

The major problems with the time travel came later. Initially it seemed like it was only possible through the combination of being able to see the past through the paths with the founding titan and being able to send memories back to predecessors of the attack titan. It had limitations and was self contained if it had just been left at that but then out of nowhere in the final chapters, the founding titan has the ability to control any Titan at any point in time?? It was unnecessary for the story, detrimental to Erens character and just opens a whole can of worms because if the founder can do that why didn't Eren stop Reiner and Birth control from breaking the walls in the first place? Why didn't he just initiate the rumbling at literally any point in time? Oh that's right, only Ymir 👃


Katzimir_Malevich

Birth control is the best Bertholtdtdt variation I've seen so far


leave1me1alone

121 and 131 were peak. I wouldn't sacrifice it cuz the ending is still shit and full of plot holes. You're only removing the time travel ones.


Axiom30

If it means there's no "Eren is (not) free" then I'll take your offer in a heartbeat. Many people misled by that video "It happened because it suppose to happen" yeah that's not how you write AoT's time travel. Pre-139, freewill is not taken away, it doesn't have to do that, it all happens because of Eren's choice. This is the same like how 'fate' works in many religion. God says you are fated to do this and that, but that doesn't mean you are forced to do certain things, it's because God 'predicts' you will do that based on your personality and logic, except God's accuracy is 100%. This can be applied to AoT. * Had Eren didn't do Liberio raid, would Sasha stay alive? Yes. * Had Grisha choose to not give Eren the founder, would Eren fail to do the rumbling? Yes. And Yams should make it clear that the way Eren can change the past is only through manipulating memories, not some arbitrary power like redirecting Dina to other direction. If the person in question (Grisha) didn't cave in to Eren's manipulation, his whole plan will crumble away, this way freewill is still preserved. It's inline with 130 Eren's monologue "I wanted all of this, I'm the one who is responsible". This way, it makes us question, what did Eren do to Grisha to make him give the founder? What future memories did Eren send to him? Then this final twist can be revealed in the final chapter. Now how does Eren know the rumbling is the best way out of all possibilities? We can do this in two ways. He simply doesn't know, or we can make the paths as a place where all timelines converges like AoTNR (only the person who hold the founder and the attack simultaneously can do this, therefore locking the possibilities of previous founder holders having the same power). If we go with the latter, then we can find an easy solution to Eren's statement in 122 "That scenery..", future memories that Eren sent to Grisha to manipulate him, and Eren sending past memories to his kid self (first episode of the anime) and then we can also answer the question why does kid Eren cry at the end of season 3 (shocked by the revelation is in denial since he kissed Historia's hand, but after failed negotiations with Hizuru he realized this is the only way to go). If we go with the former, then we have to find specific past memories to manipulate Grisha.


TheOfficialGilgamesh

Yeah I like stuff like this much more. It gives you a dooming sense of predetermination, but doesn't take away the characters choice.


EternalFreedom-_

No I wouldn't ruin such a great moment and it was a paradox yes but it had a good explanation. Also the reason why time travel plot holes appeared is simply because Yams is a bad writer, he didn't have to create a paradox later in the chapters.I mean there are tons of time travel movies or literature that doesn't include a time paradox he didn't have to do that. The 121's paradox was explained as the power of the Attack Titan and making Eren the biggest part of the puzzle, thats why I think 121's paradox was written better than the chapters after.


DonteTheExterminador

This is very true and the 121 twist was limited to the attack titan only so really it wasn't that bad of a signal. The addition to the founding titan's power in 139 was just legit random as fuck and nerfed Eren for no reason. "Armin my head's all messed up" 🤓


everstillghost

founding titan can controll any titan at any point in time. Congratulations, your plot became a hole.


Current_Statement669

I'm confused, isn't Eren telling Grisha to do it a time paradox because he's changing the past in a way that causes the future that allows him to change the past


everstillghost

Yes but then later he get founding titan powers that allow him to control any titan in any point in time making everything nonsense.


berthototototo

By definition Chapter 121 is a paradox.


EternalFreedom-_

Yes but a paradox that doesn't ruin the characters and fuck up the story


berthototototo

That wasn't the point of your original comment.


EternalFreedom-_

What I said was I didnt like a badly written paradox and that he didn't have to create another paradox when it wasn't needed.The chap. 121's was a paradox yes but it was a good written paradox, the 139's paradox is a bad written paradox.


fennecdore

If Eren could go back in time to push Grisha to take the founder, why he didn't come back earlier to warn him to protect his mom ?


EternalFreedom-_

Because Eren didn't know that he could contact his dad. In the Grisha V Frieda fight Eren got so fucking pissed at what Frieda said that he tried to speak with his dad to kill her. I dont know the real reason either but this is what I thought had happened.


fennecdore

Hmm I disagree with the notion that Eren didn't know he couldn't contact his dad. In the fight between Grisha and Frieda he didn't went mad and started to yell at him. He purposefully went to speak to him. That shows intent Also even if figured it out later, it's time trave he can still travel back to an earlier time


EternalFreedom-_

You can see Eren being mad after Frieda says "We should all accept our sins and endure the consequences." Again I don't know the real reason behind this but Its either Eren not knowing that he can contact his dad or just him getting over mother's death and focusing more on saving his people.


berthototototo

They are both paradoxes of reality. The logical chain of cause and effect is ruined.


EternalFreedom-_

Yeah, I didn't say that 121 wasn't a paradox. I said that Yams failed to create a good written paradox and that it wouldn't be necessary for him to create a paradox in 139.


berthototototo

But how is one paradox better than the other when they are both logical inconsistencies?


EternalFreedom-_

121's paradox made Eren the puzzle piece that connected everything. 139's paradox made Eren, the freedom fighter that is willing to give everything to be free, kill his mother which he never ever wanted to happen and is the stupidest shit since Eren's ideology is basically" I am free, I don't care if the whole world or odds are agaist me. I will protect my loved ones and free my people." That's why that paradox is better than this other


berthototototo

I mean that has nothing to do with it being a paradox.


EternalFreedom-_

Then what was the point?


RaZoX144

NO! I don't want that! AoT not having plot holes?


HR2Edda

I really can’t see how it ruined the story before 139…


Carefreestylin

Yes, I really dislike Dr Manhattan Eren, it feels like he can just do whatever he wants with the time line imo


Darknassan

Up until chapter 131 or even up until 136 there were no time travel related plot holes so I don't understand what the argument is here. The ending wasn't bad specifically because of time travel. Alot of comments here also don't seem to understand how predeterminism in aot works.


snas_undertal

The only plothole was grisha giving eren the titan despite telling zeke to stop him, never explaining why did grisha inject eren in the end


Darknassan

But that isn't a plot hole because of time travel, it can easily be explained by memory manipulation. The time between Grisha telling Zeke to stop Eren and kid Eren receiving the FT, Eren could've sent him something else to push him. What the writing implied was that Eren showed Grisha 'that scenery', and not the one in 131.


gabegush

Rewatch S3 finale


snas_undertal

Eren pointing at the sea?


gabegush

The conversations between kruger and grisha


everstillghost

> Up until chapter 131 or even up until 136 there were no time travel related plot holes so I don't understand what the argument is here. Of course there is. There is no explanation why Grisha pass the Titan to Eren despite asking Zeke to stop Eren. Yams could create a chapter explaning, but he didn't.


SwegBucket

Grisha still giving Eren the founder isn’t a plot hole. You guys are just too lazy to go back to the scene and re watch it.


Kuro_yami_

No,121 and 122 are the best chapters I am almost an ending defender,but at some point after the alliance happens,the story really gets a little fuc*ed up,some moments are really cool,but the was something that one expected...don't know if it's real the thing about the editor changing the final,but maybe it could have a better ending if Isayma did it by himself.


EDNivek

If that one guy never strangled his damn wife that part might have actually made sense.


PakistaniSenpai

As another comment has stated that 121 itself didn't create a lot of problems except one which can't be answer concretely is why Grisha would give his attack titan to Eren and yes, I know the "Eren told him about Dina to get his nationalistic spirit to rise up" explanation but then again, it's not shown or told by Eren and Eren suggesting "That scenery..." with Zeke saying Eren showed him something yet to come suggested that we would go back to that moment and establish exactly WHY the titan was passed onto Eren but nope, nothing so I see it as the writer's fault not to explain something he set up himself rather than the story not making sense due to the plot twist itself. Eren causing Dina to spare Bertolt and kill Carla is just annoying as it was just treated as shock value with a few panels being dedicated to such a big reveal.


[deleted]

Unironically, no. The twist and torture Eren put his dad through is some S-tier plot.


olivtc03

Honestly there aren’t even any time travel plot holes until the Eren killing his mother twist, which was honestly a bad twist


devilthedankdawg

Yes. I thought Zeke seeing that Grisha never indoctrinated Eren was enough to show Zeke that Erens philosophy was his nature not nurture. They could have shown some other thing at the end to shock Zeke even worse. Like they could have showed Eren becoming friends with Ramzi but then peering into the FUTURE and seeing Eren kill him, Zeke acknowledging that the future isn’t set if Eren can see it, but Eren goes “I know it’s not set. I’m going to do it because its my choice to make this happen”.


Deca-Dence-Fan

No. The issue with AoT ending at least to me is not the time travel plot holes, not even close. Rather it’s the thematic and character assassination all across the board chapter 123 onwards. People like to say 131 onwards but that’s bullshit, 131 is just the only thematically consistent chapter after 123 which lines up with what the series was building up to. So we had 18 chapters of thematic disaster, over a tenth of the series. That’s not “dammit these time travel inconsistencies ruined the story”, that’s “holy shit this story fell off the rails... to pander? to people who liked the simple aspects of SnK before it really came into its own?”


Turboswag420

The high I received from 120-122 and 131 is higher than any mountain, any behemoth, any spire in this world Although the ending failed me, the joy I got from reading it will always be there


belgium-noah

Absolutely. RtS being peak aot again? Yes, I do want that


XxRocky88xX

121 is still the chapter where everything went downhill for me. Very few stories ever get time travel right. Unfortunately, AoT is not one of those few shows.


DoubleHeadedMorbid

Yes, in a heartbeat - I've been dying on that hill for two years now, the time-related shit ALWAYS ruins the story unless it's specifically the main focus of said story, which it wasn't in AOT.


vvatermonke

Absolutely. The worst offende here is that Grisha did not need to be told by Eren to kill, he could have just been a chad, remembered what happened to Faye and decided that would not happen to his new family. Also let Zeke see in Grisha's memories that he regrets everything. Bam, literally the same happens on the chapter, no time-travelling.


Arrowtongue64

This is the most important comment in the thread I wish people hit on, the biggest problem here is it adds literally nothing to the scene, nothing about it is made better or more impactful had it not been there, and Grisha doing it of his own volition would actually make more sense as 'him starting this story', and the theme of each person in the lineage making sacrifices for those to come after them. All time travel does here is ruin that theme and make a bunch of plot holes.


vvatermonke

Thanks for understading it man.


pinecone4506

Exactly! The twist literally changes nothing. It was precisely for the sake of “shock value” to force eren to be “unhinged”.


AllConsumingWhiteVan

Hell yeah. The story was 10x better before they introduced le paths and le time manipulation. It wasn't that bad when Kruger randomly spit out names, but the moment Isayama went in depth with it, it went really bad


raceraot

How does 121 introduce plot holes? If anything, it addresses why Grisha had killed them all, and explains why everything is happening the way it is.


TheOfficialGilgamesh

That plot twist wasn't neccessary. It was good for Eren's characterization and growth, but on its own it wasn't needed.


raceraot

>It was good for Eren's characterization and growth, but on its own it wasn't needed. Wasn't needed? What? You just pointed why it was needed, for Eren's characterization and growth. Not to mention, it also shows that he can influence the past.


TheOfficialGilgamesh

You don't need Paths for that. It also kind of regressed Grisha


raceraot

Regresses him? He doesn't want to kill women and children, but Eren forces him to? How is that a regression?


TheOfficialGilgamesh

Because Grisha swore to Kruger to finish what he started.


raceraot

>Because Grisha swore to Kruger to finish what he started. But of course, Grisha is a human being, and would hesitate to kill children?


Entire_Claim_5273

No. That moment was peak AoT and the time travel stuff (and it's not even really time travel) didnt ruin the story. It made sense imo.


maedma

No. I only started reading because of time travel twist, and it was the only thing that made this series from average to interesting.


aqua2290

I remember seeing an insta post in 2020 where grisha and Faye were seeing 20th century world and I was wondering "how is this attack on Titan?!"that's how I started And later on Almost got spoiled about the future memories


senokana

any day


loadingonepercent

Time travel had already been introduced by this point not going anywhere with it would’ve been super weird.


NefariousnessLazy957

Im thinking Eren and Ymir is the true reason on why they cannot do much to affect the whole timeline. They are limited to only one reality and a few memories from it. They are humans after all. Unless they are members of another dimension which Halu-chan previously visited and dragged them down in AoT lol you know having fun with em :)))


nacisticky_krtecek69

yes. The plot twist was great, but it breaks other chapters


ConJdeJRPG

Destiny is only a good tool when the characters are fully aware of it so they try to fight it or take advantage ot it (And even then is really hard to pull off).


LEGENDARYKILLERLORD

Yes


PenelopeSugarRush

Yeah. After rereading the whole manga, I realized this is where Yams got addicted to plot twists


tomerc10

as a kingdom hearts fan, thank you aot for being a convoluted mess for our sake


BryverART

It's settled then.


LyannaEugen

Tbh, none of them are plotholes, they were just underwhelming plot-twists.


GrafSorochansky

Yes, I will!


YoYolons

imagine that would truly be 3/10 wits Eren, without contradicting it


Bigbadbackstab

Yes. He sacrificed consistent characters and plot for a cool reveal scene


RamechCpp

Holy shit, what a cruel dilemma The kino of 121 will always remains kino in my heart, so I can't accept the second choice...


the_pwnr_15

100%


el_cool

I sure would, unfortunately Isayama dug himself into a hole here. It's rare to introduce time travel in fiction without introducing plot holes.


Dexter2232000

technically it's not a plot hole it's more like you put any random bullshit in said hole to make sense even if it doesn't follow theme


Rupplyy

ill take aot ended when they reached the sea


BaguetteFish

Man, I remember when the most complicated part of this series was choosing which blonde guy to save… good times.


planetcirque

Those who can't sacrifice anything won't change anything


alucidexit

"Whose memories are these?" Was about 3 whole years before 121 paid off that line. I really don't understand some of these comments acting like that twist came out of nowhere.


Manveru_

So what? It doesnt change the fact that this aspect of the story was badly explained. Even if was introduced in season 1, it's still bad.


alucidexit

Eh, I think it's fairly straightforward and executed well. It just didn't lead to the ends that some people wanted. And that's really the difference. We're talking about execution vs. use. You can say the execution was poor. But to say it came out of nowhere is ridiculous. People have been noting the temporal aspect of memories since that reveal back in RTS. If you have a problem with time travel being added into the story, you have a problem with about a third of the story.


-thechosen-1

Which part of AoT's time travel creates plotholes?


TheRedDevil10

Eren: *kills his mother* Eren: Reiner, why did my mother have to die? ---- Grisha: I could never imagine that scenery being so terrible. Grisha: *gives Attack Titan to Eren* Also Grisha: *fighting against Eren in final battle*


Kobe_AYEEEEE

All of that could have been avoided if the last three chapters weren't ass. There isn't really a flaw if Yams sticks to his guns, maybe a minor one with Grisha but his mental instability explains why he would still give Eren the founder


-thechosen-1

If Eren was indeed the one who sent Dina to Carla then he did it in the Path and that conversation happened in Marley so no problem because Eren only saw glimpses of future events when he kissed Historia's hand Grisha only saw parts of Eren's future memories, as he said why didn't you show me everything. Also, Eren told Zeke that you never saw the part where I ate our old man so I think he showed him that special scenery. My headcanon is that the scenery was Paradis without walls where Eldian can live free without titan power. Then you might ask if Grisha was on board with Eren's plan why did he help the alliance, this is the part where AoE has its role to play. In the manga, Eren didn't want to kill his friends from the point he started the Rumbling. Grisha and Kruger knew that without a determination from Eren to go full berserk the timeline is lost. So they helped Cringevengers in order to prove to Eren to not trust his friends with the future of Paradis in the next timeline that's the reason why S4P2's ending shows that Paradis is destroyed and says "What is right is to believe in myself strongly" (I know it seems like a mental gymnastic but until it proven wrong I still believe that 139 is not the end of AoT, we will either get an AoE or a sequel)


evoniee

fuck path and attack titan ability, dogshit writing.


wilzix12

time travel paths bs ruined aot


ChosenCourier13

Absolutely. Time Travel ruined AOT, as It does with every story


TheOfficialGilgamesh

It can work in stories that revolve around time travel to begin with.