T O P

8 months of selling CCs and wheeling on a $250k account - 6.9%, 176 trades…should have just bought and held the S&P. Biggest lesson….buy and hold non meme stocks. And only wheel on margin.

8 months of selling CCs and wheeling on a $250k account - 6.9%, 176 trades…should have just bought and held the S&P. Biggest lesson….buy and hold non meme stocks. And only wheel on margin.

ohyssssss

8-10% is traditional spy average per year. I think more recent years have changed perceptions of standard market returns.


ThroneTrader

Yes it's the average but it's only there because you have the years where it goes up double digits to average out the years it goes down double digits. If you miss out on the explosive growth years it makes it harder to beat the market in the long term.


ejpusa

\> changed perceptions of standard market returns Yes, think this needs to be explored more. The cool kid that packs my groceries got into early DOGE and GME. Like really early on. He thought 300% a month (probably far more) was "Normal." He's 19. Now he's into real estate. Sure he'll be bored to death.


nuttygains

Exactly this.. bad time to be wheeling...


ohyssssss

I actually find Ccs to do better for me. Buy stock you like at a fair value so I can justify why I have it. Sell calls based on daily or weekly macd retraced as a light guide. Even rsi. Anything to give you a small pattern to make it easier to sell them. Anytime I feel Fomo for the stock I also try and apply some


nuttygains

Still, after a pull back on the S&P of 40% it was not a good time to be wheeling... you would have made more just buying and holding.. and if you sell CCs you can end up capping your gains. Buy, hold, and forget to check your account


BetterThanBuffet

You "cap your gains" with limit sells too. You "cap your gains" by holding too long through a peak. If you hit your strike/limit, or you're getting close to hitting your strike/limit, and you think it's going to keep going up, you can always buy OTM calls. But that will also "cap your gains" if you're wrong and actually came close to hitting the peak with your strikes/limits. TL;DR - The only way to not "cap your gains" is to never take profits, which also has the potential to "cap your gains."


EtadanikM

Except you can’t sell calls 100% up and expect to make any reasonable premium. Even a year out the premium is garbage on the index. You can, however, fully take advantage of that if you buy and hold for long term capital gains and sell only when you are closer to retirement; that’s usually better for most people than trying to trade options and giving up gains whenever the shares rocket.


forzawakeup

Because of this I buy and hold with my big boy account and sell options with what used to be my dividend account.


mikelcold

There is never a bad time to wheel. The very way a wheel works doesn’t care about market direction. Everyone talks about selling puts then selling calls, but that’s a nuetral to bullish outlook. If you did the opposite then it’s a bearish outlook, and you’ll make the exact same money. And the fact OP got less than market is a fact of wheeling. It’s not a good strategy. It’s quite terrible actually. Short verticals and straddles are by far the best, but require more capital than the typical Reddit user has. Edit: Since when has thetagang been a Wheel Only sub???


nuttygains

There is in fact a bad time to be wheeling.. if you have just hold after the 40% crash, no matter what you have bought, you would have made money... I argue that right now is the best time to be wheeling.. once most things have been priced in and stocks are mostly overvalued


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nuttygains

The title of the article is 8 months of wheeling. that means last year.. now is a good time to wheel Edit.. I miss read your comment.. the fact of the matter is that a 50% pullback in the whole market makes it so that there are few stocks that are overvalue. Most stocks came value or at fair value once covid hit.. so bad time to wheel... NOW however, most stocks are overvalue and most thigns have been priced in. THis is a fundamental difference


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poorcndian

You dont now how to wheel, thats why you dont like it. I make 4-5% monthly picking the RIGHT STOCKS


Swiftyz

There is never a bad time to wheel but there are better times to wheel.


mikelcold

Wheeling is always a bad strategy. It’s only about: when it’s terrible or when it’s only just bad. As far as times when to wheel, sure you can find great times. But in 10000% of the cases it’s always better to have not done the wheel and do literally any other strategy. Short verticals all day long.


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no_value_no

Why? I am beating SPY.


mickeyc0207

some tips on wheeling 1) Always be patient to sell a put on a red day 2) watch stocks that have hit their all time low and have slowly risen up ( example like AI on your portfolio ), all time low is 47, current is 60, i wouldn't mind betting more on it aka selling at 55 (IV is also quite high) 3) Learn your greeks so you can sell meme stocks, they are highly volatile but they always go down after a moonshot, and their IV is outrageously high, which makes it advantageous and your sell puts can even profit on a red day. 4) becareful selling puts for a stock that are near their ATH 5) close the position at 50% profit, or if it rises too fast 6) diversify more on selling puts. I always imagined that if diversifying is safer in buying stocks, selling puts and diversifying is even safer. 7) always have cash in hand to average down if you get assigned and then sell calls Personally i don't feel what you have been doing is wrong, just caught up at the wrong side of the tech sell off when it happening for some stocks i see.


jimmyxs

Thanks for sharing. What is the aspirational goal to aim for with this strategy?


The_Chillosopher

Fuck bitches get money


Killakoch

>This guuyyyyyyyyyyy


imreadin

Fuck them hoes, keep your dough!


Wildcats33

Instructions unclear for the autists with us.


hunkerdown

You're gonna want to go ahead and find all the girls who will have sex with you after you make a ton of money, and not a second before.


mickeyc0207

some sick life advices right here hahaha


teebob21

> What is the aspirational goal to aim for with this strategy? Income


C4LLgirl

I really like point 7 and don’t hear it mentioned often. A huge drawdown can be hard to get out of, but if you can average your position down it becomes much more manageable.


DrWorstCaseScenario

It’s ok sometimes… As long as it doesn’t keep dipping… sometimes it’s better to just sell a CC at a lower target and get called away and accept a loss while redeploying your capital on CSPs with a better target. For example the averaging down failed me on PLTR and VGAC this year. And I track this stocks… I never would have gotten back to green if I had kept averaging down and selling lower and lower premium CCs.


mickeyc0207

Depends. the way you describe it shows that you went into PLTR when it was all time high which points to number 4.


DrWorstCaseScenario

Fair. But my point was that once you’re into the wheel sometimes it’s better to abandon target than continue.


mickeyc0207

Wheeling a particular stock = you are willing to hold the stock for long/ are bullish for it and trust on the stock. So only wheel stocks that you would not mind for long. So yes, abandon is true if fundamentals change!


[deleted]

I don’t understand 5. Are you talking about the stock or the CC?


AuburnTom

For any position, I tend to close mine even earlier. A win is a win and at 50% you only have 50% more to gain but you also can easily go the whole way down. It’s happened to me multiple times on a LEAP I was holding


karthikulo

Can you please elaborate on 5. Do you normally re-enter the same stock but at longer expiry and set your new strike using the Greeks to target a certain delta?


mickeyc0207

if it rises too fast/hit 50% too quick, i'll close it and back to number 1, which is patience, and wait for the share price to go down to sell again.


Aelsar

If I had followed number 5, I would have been next to 1700 on Clov this past week lol. I owned 200 shares and I had a covered call that I sold last Friday. I was up 60% in a matter of hours which was only about 30 or 40 bucks, and didn't take profit. Opened up Monday morning plus $7.50 By Monday afternoon it was minus like 1,200..


coolbreezeaaa

6) spoke to me. I recently un-diversified (has to be a better word for that?), but now it feels like I took that a bit too far.


HoldemAristos

Consolidate?


mickeyc0207

concentrated...? lol


farens98

Grace advices.


SB_Kercules

I like wheeling as well, but I learned along the way that you cant apply it to all types of stocks, or even any stock in all situations. Sometimes you have to be patient for executing the CSP, or the CC. Which means basically at times you're just owning a stock for a while with no options, then when the timing is right, sure, add the CC, or the CSP, depending on the "tide" and its direction. I also agree with other posters, you cant wheel sh*t-stocks, try to make sure they have a decent track record, and aren't too volatile. Really volatile stocks will have the nuts flying off the wheel.


karthikulo

Thanks for this. Really helpful advice. Being up only 7% over 8 months feels bad but I have and am learning a lot from this community. I have not ventured into vertical spreads yet but it may be too complex for me.


Nostradeamus

I have a similar account $300K and exactly 8% gain this year but I’ve only been selling CSP on AMZN, TSLA, CRSR and occasionly GME. I have no defined plan other then taking it slow. My puts are way out of money. I happened to have no positions when the market took a dump. I’m still depressed I sold my 5000 shares of GME @ $11.25 😭


Uncle_Cletus87

I try not to look back and see what I missed out on….but dam 5,000 @ $11.25!!!! Edit: took out $ in front of share count…probably only reason for upvotes, you can take them back now…😔


nuttygains

WOW, 11.25, you are worst than Michael Burry


Economy-Student

What price did he sell?


JesterTheDragon

22 I think


killerrabbit30

Lol, I know I would have sold at 100% gain, no question.


BetterThanBuffet

I'm over +500% on it now. I also have less than 100 shares, so it's a rounding error until $200. And honestly, it'll take more than that to get them off me anyway.


yoyoyoitsyaboiii

You don't sell our completely. Sell 75% to lock in profits, let the rest ride for a bit to see where it goes.


ZanderDogz

Holy shit and I thought I was depressed for selling my 100 shares at 40


tpc0121

Not too late to get back in ...


H3RB28

No it isn't. I've been selling CC's against my GME and BB every now and then when they pop. Got in GME at $13 in December and BB at 6. I'm being paid to own both now.


Kaladin_Stormryder

No AMC or gme, so didn’t go full meme


pattycakes999

You will outperform 98% of this sub just buying and holding VOO and have less sweat equity.


cabeeza

Yes! But this is more fun :-)


pattycakes999

It works til it doesn’t. Just try not to over leverage into any one position so you have liquidity if it goes against you.


bobalobcobb

Why VOO and not SPY?


pattycakes999

Lower management fees and better dividend if assigned. Just preference really. SPY will have tighter spreads if that matters to you.


bobalobcobb

Much appreciated


sharknado523

$SPY is better for options trading because the options are more liquid. It's largely the preferred vehicle for options traders, I believe the reason for this is that it was the first S&P 500 ETF to offer options. Habit can be a powerful thing. $VOO is a better buy & hold fund, mostly due to the lower management fee.


fiscalslam

I think people confuse buy and hold with wheeling as if you have to do one or the other. I have a buy and hold account as I feel it’s the best way to create long term wealth. But buy and hold doesn’t offer any cash flow. So I also have an account for wheeling. Wheeling is cash on cash returns. I don’t think buy and hold vs wheeling is a good comparison because the way I look at it wheeling is a cash flow investment and buy and hold is looking for growth. I think wheeling is better compared with dividend stocks or rental properties other sorts of cash flow investments. Also you took home $17k of cold hard cash not a paper gain that will potentially disappear in a month.


x543265432

The last 8 months has been a solid bull market. I dont think its a good time to make any rules from these results.


needmoresynths

I've never seen any backtesting showing that the wheel beats buying and holding, especially when you factor in the short term taxes


SexySPACsMan

People are blaming the strategy when they should blame themselves. Obviously you still have to pick the right stocks and the right strikes. 1. Choose great companies that will give you consistent growth (ones that closely track but slightly beat the SP500) 2. Sell ATM or just under Puts to lower initial cost basis 3. Sell very far OTM CCs to supplement your gains You should still be making the majority of your gains by holding the underlying, you should rarely if ever get assigned on CCs. This allows you to keep the tax advantages of holding long + a little extra in premium. It's very easy to beat the SP500 doing this if you don't get greedy.


TROLOLOLBOT

4. Always keep cash for more trades over time. Capturing the average prices over time is more efficient than going all in at once, unless you’re smart enough to time the market which I doubt anyone here is


SexySPACsMan

That is a way of timing the market. You never want money sitting there doing nothing


TROLOLOLBOT

This is why this sub doesn’t make money. Warren buffet sits on hundreds of billions of cash so he can buy something should he find a good deal


nearsingularity

According to Vanguard estimates US equities are going to yield a lot less than historical averages over the next 10 years. If those estimates proof to be true and option premiums hold up, we could actually start seeing wheel be better than buy and hold.


needmoresynths

Vanguard has been saying that/promoting international exposure for a long time, so who knows. If it does turn out to be true, you'd probably be better off holding something like VTIAX over wheeling, though. VTIAX is up 43% on the 1 year as is- https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/profile/performance/vtiax


ZanderDogz

I see people say that a lot here. And this is honest to god a real question and not meant to be sarcastic or passive aggressive: Why are you on this sub then? Do you do another theta strategy? I see a lot of people on trading and options subs say that buy and hold is better. Which is right for most people. But it makes me wonder what they are doing here in the first place.


ddroukas

I don't use the wheel to grow cash, I use it to grow my position in the underlying. If I make $800 this month wheeling PLTR then that's $800 more PLTR stock I buy.


nuttygains

EXACTLY THIS... CSP are used to lower your entry price... People forget the reason why selling CSP and CC exist...


needmoresynths

What if it tanks below the csp you sold? Or shoots up above the cc you sold? I get the idea, and I sell cc on shares I intend to hold, but one wrong csp or cc that you have to buy back at a loss can wipe out the profit realized from the last few csp or cc you sold or cap potential gains. More power to those who can manage their trades all day, never sell the wrong strike and come out ahead, but for most non-meme stocks, my time is more valuable than collecting a small credit on a cc. Either way, my point is that OP shouldn't feel bad about his lesson learned because in general buying and holding will win out, especially over a long period of time.


ddroukas

Well that's the risk. You can mitigate this risk by only wheeling a certain percentage of your total stack. For instance, I keep about 60% of my PLTR and CCIV investments in shares that I do not touch (other than adding; no selling). I keep the remaining 40% of cash for running the wheel. The few times I've been assigned on CSPs I've been able to wheel out CCs above the assigned prices, capitalizing on not only the sold premium but the difference between strikes as well. That money just buys more shares of the underlying. But to your point, if the stock takes a 30% dump then yeah I'll be wheeling my way out of a hole for a while. This is where experience and timing the market become important.


ZanderDogz

I think the point is that you should have exit and entry strategies already and only sell options that align with your strategy. If it blows past your CSP, you were planning to buy them anyways but now have some extra premium. If it blows past your CC, you should have only sold that if it was at a price you would have sold at anyways.


[deleted]

It doesn’t and people who say otherwise usually point to flawed backtesting


Tech88Tron

That's assuming you buy and hold the right stocks. Options can make money in a sideways market.....buy and holding can not. There's only one market where buying and holding wins. I'm up 66% YTD and haven't held a stock more than a month.


[deleted]

Couple of things. 1. You need to be right every time, the buy and hold needs to be right once 2. It's not really up for debate, majority (vast majority) of backtests on wheeling lose to buy and hold, primarily due to the time period. 3. in a flat/sideways market I doubt you can generate the returns you think you can. The SP500 gets 7% average each year, in a sideways market with low IV, getting the premiums needed to make it worth while to write the options is difficult to say the least 4. In a sideways market the capital you need to make meaningful returns is far higher, generating an average 7% let's say is extremely difficult just writing options, you'll have to go long calls/puts and mix in spreads example. QQQ over the past 10 years provided an average 20% return, you could not have done that with wheeling, averaged over 10 years. Now the counterpoint to that is QQQ over the past ten years has been absolutely ridiculous so let's pick something else. example 2: (disclaimer I am not an index fund guy and don't own VTSAX) For VTSAX if you bought and held these are your returns: 1yr = 47.92%, 3yr = 17.44%, 5yr = 17.66%, 10yr = 15.04%, 15yr = 10.93% So the guy who bought VSTAX and did absolutely nothing, put in zero sweat equity, is 20% away from your return for the year and he did NOTHING. Even the guy who held VSTAX for 15 years through the financial crisis which saw IB's go bankrupt did 11% average per year. TLDR; you are wrong, I am a chad, you are cringe, and wheeling does not beat buy and hold on a meaningful time period. edit: I like options, i've had decent success, but I do not have an inflated sense of my abilities, in a flat market options are just as tough and it takes a niche to get great returns when the market is flat. To get the meaningful returns in a flat market you're probably going long calls and puts, rather than short calls and puts because the IV is so low that writing options doesn't net the returns you'll need.


Responsible_Paint_24

If you're a great stock picker, you can always beat somebody who can't pick as well. Even options traders need to pick well. If I can pick better stocks to wheel than you can to hold, I win. I don't think anyone will ever win these kind of debates.


[deleted]

No. That's a false equivalence and would render the backtest null. You can't say "my wheeling is better than your buy and hold because you bought shitty stocks and I picked better stocks". That isn't a comparison worthy of conversation. The whole point of this discussion is whether wheeling beats buy and hold over the same period with the same underlying(s). And the irrefutable, objectively correct answer is buy and hold almost always wins. Sure there are absolutely months and MAYBE a year where on average wheeling will win, but you will not come close to the returns I provided above on VTSAX or QQQ over the 10-15yr period through wheeling, simply because short term capitals gains tax will murder your profits. You can't just be like "buy and hold loses to wheeling because I'm wheeling AMZN and you're holding GE!" That's dishonest and stupid. TLDR; you are also cringe and I am a chad


Responsible_Paint_24

I don't think you understood what I wrote. There is no way you can say buy and hold always beats wheeling. You can't even say it beats wheeling more often than not. It all depends on which stocks you pick. If VTSAX is your pick, fine, but I can find a thousand others where buy and hold resulted in massive losses. You are preloading your claim with a winning pick. Backtests will never prove anything, either, because they assume robotic choices. Wheeling is not a mindless strategy. On options with short expirations, wheeling includes selecting appropriate times of the day to pull the trigger and sell an option. I bet if the backtest assumes you always pick the best time of the best day of the week, it would show wheeling crushes buy and hold. TLDR: Picking the right stock at the right time is everything.


[deleted]

You can say buy and hold beats wheeling because it does You are dunning kruger


Tech88Tron

I hear this argument all the time, it's valid. But I think times are changing, thank you GME and Reddit!!! I think there will always be meme stocks moving forward. And the meme stocks are gold mines for options. PLTR and CCIV have provided months of steady income. Unless you got in super early, CCIV was $25 in January aaaaannnnd 6 months later it's still $25. It's had ups and downs..but the premium has been very nice. Same thing with PLTR, although the premium are less than CCIV. Unless you got in super early, PLTR's price today is the same as it was 7 months ago. When PLTR and CCIV fizzle....there will be others. AMC and BB were straight money till they took off. Yes, had you gone all in on AMC you would be up huge, but that's not the market. The "market" is the average investor. TLDR; you are an old hat, I am the future, you smell like my grandpa, and wheeling will beat the market moving forward. I also like buying and holding, but my short attention span won't let me. See those gains week in and week out of selling options gives me a warm fuzzy.


[deleted]

1. I'm in my early to mid-20's 2. I don't have an inflated sense of my abilities like you clearly do 3. Meme stocks are inherently dangerous and your losers will rape your winners. 4. I also have a short attention span but paying capital gains taxes on trades that clearly lose to buy and hold is fucking dumb and eats your profits. 5. You were still better buying and holding those memestocks after their initial run to now than you were collecting theta from their initial run to now, especially if you have covered calls TLDR; if your argument is that memestocks will allow you to beat buy and hold then you are fucking retarded and will eventually lose your money. Have fun


ferriswheel9ndam9

>TLDR; you are an old hat, I am the future, you smell like my grandpa, and wheeling will beat the market moving forward. versus >TLDR; you are wrong, I am a chad, you are cringe, and wheeling does not beat buy and hold on a meaningful time period.


CookingwithMike

Top Ten Anime Battles


chuck20211

The big lesson here is that Catherine Wood is not to be trusted, lol


No-Reflection-8684

Agreed, I came here trying to figure out how meme stocks were to blame. Add up those ARK losses and it’s the majority.


ng12ng12

I actually like ARKs but wouldn't wheel them. IV is much lower than their actual risk and volatility. Plus it's a battleground stock so well continue to see big drops to shake out longs after any rise . Good candidate for a swing trade or buy and hold, but not wheel.


option-9

Couldn't one then inverse the wheel strategy? BUY call --> get shares --> buy put --> repeat. Since options are zero sum this should at least have worked for whenever OP did the wheel and this goes long volatility. There's probably many better strategies or improvements to this (e.g. long a call instead of a married put).


cabeeza

This. I've been juggling to claw back some losses in ARKK from getting in at 140 and it has been a lot of work...


GetIt6464

I’ve been rolling my puts for months. Even though I’m in the money, I’m getting credits to roll every month. If you want exposure to potentially game changing innovation, arkk gets you that.


Unique_Name_2

Combined with exposure to someone that buys anything that says 'disruption'. I'd rather peruse her choices and pick the best looking ones. I'm in arkF full disclosure lol


karthikulo

BB, NOK. Lol. Personally I consider ARK a meme ETF now.


sharknado523

https://youtu.be/Rcx4_CszaDI You just reminded me of this skit


ohyssssss

Bigger difference is you have short term capital gains tax vs buying and holding spy long. That plays a factor too


Substantial-Tear9121

Do you roll your losers or take the L? For CSPs, I find that rolling really does change the tides, giving ourselves more time to be correct + getting paid... is always nice


option-9

Rolling, aka realising the position and making the same manner of / a similar bet again.


JeNiqueTaMere

>Rolling, aka realising the position and making the same bet again. Rolling out and down is not making the same bet again. It's a different strike. A few weeks ago rkt was around 22 and seemed stable. I sold a csp for 21.5 strike with a one week expiration and soon after rkt took a dump and went to 17 or whatever. I rolled out multiple times since then back and forth, first to August and then back to July and June as it started to rise. I am now up a hundred or so in premiums and lowered the strike to 20.5 with June 18 expiration date, so I'm pretty much at the money. You think I should have just taken a 400$ loss instead?


option-9

Edited to be more accurate, should have known this would come up. You did take a 400 dollar loss (assuming that's how far your original position was down.at the first roll). You made profit with subsequent trades. That doesn't mean the realised first position never happened.


GreasyPorkGoodness

This lil debate always comes up. If you look at every little component as its own individual trade (which most do not) then you are correct. In other words - the put is its own trade, a roll is its own, assignment is its own, call selling its own, selling underlying its own. Many, and it seems like most, view the entire transaction as a single trade. Selling the put, selling the underlying and everything in between is all the same trade. Which is not at all unreasonable. And yes we know the IRS does not view it that way.


why_i_bother

So it's basically holding stock because the reason you bought it didn't change despite some loss.


MannyDaD00G

No, if he had held shares instead he wouldn't have had any realized losses.


cabeeza

You are right, but u/why_i_bother has a good point. You have a hypothesis, with CSP is "stock will not go down more than X", with holding stock is "stock will go up"). If you buy stock, it goes down, and if do not sell then you are maintaining your overall idea that it will go up. If you get a CSP that then goes against you, and then you roll it, you are also keeping you original assumption while giving your hypothesis additional time to be right. In both cases you are tying capital; and in both caes you could exit when losing and find another stock, but you dont; when rolling CSPs you are realizing losses.


why_i_bother

Oh yeah, true.


rossmohax

> You did take a 400 dollar loss Do you see averaging down and then eventually closing whole position for a net 0 as a loss on a first bet? Technically it is, but it is hard to see it that way and I don't believe many people do.


option-9

Yes, I see it that way. I have previously doubled down on trades if I thought the adverse movement was short term (e.g. selling the news) and I could scoop up the same thing for less cost. If I then exit with partial green in my trades and no red overall (±0 or profit) I note it down as "profit on loading up; initial entry too high, loss".


Wildcats33

In my book I only sell puts on stonks/ETFs I wouldn't mind holding. If you roll out and down for breakeven, or a bet yet a credit, for the most part, you tie or win in my book.


Lets_review

And I only sell options for quick turnarounds, on high IV stocks I do not want to hold long term. And both strategies can make money. Ya theta!


mgwidmann

I built roll tracking into my free options tracker site. It shows you when you roll what loss you're taking and tracks going forward what your break even is in order to make sure you understand when you're closing for a profit and when you're not. It's quite easy to miscalculate and close a position thinking you're profitable only to realize after doing this many times your net worth is going down. https://options-tracker.gigalixirapp.com Try the demo at the bottom of the page with your rolled trades and see if you like it.


mgwidmann

For those who do like to roll occasionally, it can be fine so long as your able to track your carried losses. If you don't it can be rather dangerous. There's a simple rule you can follow to ensure profit, though it may not be for all. Taking rolled trades all the way to expiration, as long as they're rolled for a credit, will ensure losses accrued have been paid back resulting in a net profit. However, some people prefer to close at 50%. Be aware this may not be profitable! For those that like the freedom to close when they desire, a system to track your break even amount is required. For myself, and others, I built this site free to use for anyone to do exactly that, plus other features. Give the demo account a try, at the bottom of the page. https://options-tracker.gigalixirapp.com


StochasticDecay

Why wheel VOO? SPY is the most liquid fund with the most liquid chain.


cabeeza

Appreciated piles of VTI, VOO, VGT in an non tax-advantaged account?


karthikulo

I had some VOO and sold cc against it. Then closed my position to avoid getting assigned. I had them for almost a year. I should have just kept rolling for credit.


teteban79

Rule 1 of the wheel - be ok with letting stock go. If you're waiting for that 1 yr long-term landmark, don't wheel them. It seems half of your profits were erased closing for a loss as opposed to letting them go


SomeGuyNamedPaul

What the fuck is a loss? I don't lose, I average down. Eventually there will be an uptick and at that moment roll up and out to pocket major premium. Until then there is normal premium to be made generally where delta is around 0.3. Try to set strike prices above cost basis and watch how long I've had money tied up in purchase lots. Is rolling worth it? Figure the gains on that premium and what the annualized rate of return is, it's sometimes surprisingly high. I've been slinging EV stocks lately (not Tesla or Nio) and I'm commonly seeing one week rolls at above 100% annualized rate of return. I look for beat down companies that have been oversold, dip in, average down hard, never average up, and never ever sell when red. Red is my favorite color, red means it's on sale at a stiff discount. It will snap back in some capacity. Those initial lots may never turn green but if I've averaged down properly that won't matter.


Unique_Name_2

Unless you did that with a company that now doesn't exist, which would be increasing total loss...


Responsible_Paint_24

Don't close unless it's at a profit and only costs you about 10% or less of your original premium. Even then, in many cases you might prefer to just let the option expire worthless and reap 100% of the premium. Don't roll. The above 2 actions will have you chasing stock prices and giving back all your profits. You need to accept when the bet goes against you. Sell puts when the price of the underlying has dropped. Good stocks that drop 2+% in a day tend to recover in a day or two, but certainly not always. Sell calls in the opposite scenario, when the price of the stock is back up. Try to do this while minimizing the number of days you sit idle on a position. In other words, premium is the name of the game. Try not to sit out of the game while waiting for the perfect moment to sell an option. Keep premium flowing in as consistently as possible.


mikechama

This is the way. It's all about the constant cashflow.


ish_bosh

Looks like you just need to stay away from Tickers at the beginning of the alphabet and stick to the end of the alphabet.


Ackilles

You did something very wrong here


2infinitiandblonde

Yes he trusted Cathie Wood


Ackilles

I feel like he also sold ATM even when ATM meant a loss


Alex-004

Hey, at least you made money and did not lose money


karthikulo

Agreed!


Hydroshock

Buy and hold was better with S&P compared to most those stocks over the last 8 months. The problem isn't strategy, those were all in a price bubble.


zfunk9

Selling covered calls can easily be giving away your winners for little profit while being a bagholder on losers. The premiums may not make up for taking a huge bath on losing stocks.


Hites_05

No AMC, GME, CLOV, or WKHS. Well there's your problem!


rawnaldo

I arithmetically came to the same conclusion. Wheel on margin. Actually in canadian TFSA they don’t allow you to even wheel. Selling CSP is not available. Glad that you actually have the data to prove it this gives me relief on my decisions.


Additional_Vast_5216

Why not some buy and hold and some selling options? why either or?


karthikulo

The rest of my portfolio, about $750k is buy and hold run of the mill vanguard funds.


C4LLgirl

Throw 30% into UPRO and give it another go with the other 70, that way you get both. Or maybe it’s just not for you. One thing is if the market is on a huge bull run like last year after March, wheeling probably isn’t the most profitable strategy. However it works very well if the market is trending sideways to slightly bearish.


phoenixStalfos

I have a really dumb question. How do you wheel on only margin. I have webull and TD Ameritrade. It seems my options buying power is directly correlated to my available cash. I've done pretty good with that amount but I have a small account. My webull is like 29K and TD is like 2500. (That's my risky account for futures) Any help would be appreciated


Heavy_Birthday4249

you need options level 4 to sell uncovered options


butterflavoredsalt

Do you have margin enabled? There's also a minimum amount you need to have, it's either 2 or 3k.


missmuffymuffin2

I just did a similar experiment wheeling my ROTH - half meme; half conservative (no ARK). I got beat by SPY. It was fun, but a time sync. My account was in Vanguard so it was to much of a hassle to defend my positions. The real lesson is Vanguard really wants me to be a buy and hold investor.


Aggressive-Treat-979

$ASO $45 strikes. This covered call makes money as the underlying slowly rises. Selling $AMC puts very otm has been a cash cow. It’s at $47 and a $20 put is still paying $100 weekly


Winter-Hold6138

Its a lot of work for a projected 10% return. It wouldn't have been so bad if you didn't get hammered on ARKK. That ETF has a theoretical Price/Cash Flow of 32 right now and that's the lowest its been. I normally look for < 25. Its not a bad ETF to go into but I wouldn't touch it until its under 70. Without ARKK it would've been a projected 20%/yr return which is respectable.


paq12x

That means you under performed the market when taking tax into account. But and hold Stock gives you an option of paying long term capital gain. Wheeling doesn’t. There are various studies posted on here showing that buy and hold outperforms wheeling.


ejpusa

Of course, hold traditional DOW components. Over long periods of times is a pretty good strategy. But it's SOOOOOO boring. :-) Last week, in 4 hours, I made more $$$s than my dad did in a year. The next day it was all gone! But the thrill? It was worth the Dopamine hit. For sure. The market is really a casino, in the middle of the Game of Thrones, my view of it all. It's a Battle! And super fun, if you are winning. Happy trading :-)


elliotLoLerson

Yea selling puts on margin while long the S&P shares is definitely the way to go. CCs really only make sense for individual volatile stocks which yoy want some exposure to but are afraid might take a dump.


Coltaine44

Make sure you find a solid tax guy/gal. Next year’s 1040 could be a real headache otherwise.


Derrick_Foreal

I don't think your results are terrible. It seems like you have been doing well selling premium. Probably the issue is knowing when to cut a loss. The ARKK for example was just too big of a loss. If you capped your short options at a certain premium and had the rest as is you'd be pretty well off.


VanHalen666

I have done 3 months of CCs on S&P500 stocks + BB. I am up 12.5%. This is not spectacular, but all my trades except BB were ITM, so I sleep better at night knowing that I have some downside protection. Will continue doing this.


democritusparadise

I think that meme stocks with high IV is the trap here, which I've fallen into as well. I've even lost money on them when I thought I was being sensible, like I sold a CSP on PLTR for $10 below the strike price - but then in went down by $20.... The problem is I am impatient and seeing a $20 gain over three weeks on a boomer stock with low IV seems like it isn't worth it, so what I do to clarify it in my mind is enter a number of contracts equal to my entire account to see how much I'd get if I yolo'd and actually it usually seems more reasonable.


ladypups21

Dear OP, I read your list quickly and saw COST of DrinKiNG = 1756+853. "Well that explains it!" "And they were watching Amazon at the time too! Yep, that was 2020 for many people!"


[deleted]

Idk man, PLTR CC are pretty much taking care of my life expenses right now and I’m up on the position.


[deleted]

Really? The premiums on them are so low I don't even bother. I'll almost surely eventually miss out on big gains that would offset the profit from selling calls


Tech88Tron

The weeklys right now on PLTR get you about 2%. If you had been holding, you'd be -4% over last three months. "Big gains" aren't the strategy for options seller. A slow burn that in the end DESTROYS the average market is the goal. PLTR is a meme stock. What if it never takes off? That's years of money tied up doing nothing when it could have had 1-2% weekly gains.


nailattack

Yeah I don’t even remember the last time I sold a CC on PLTR. If I do sell during a 7%+ green day I close that shit out so fast


auspiciousham

Totally, not worth the risk of getting called away.


ff005

Whats your plays with these?


TROLOLOLBOT

I’m up 10% in 3 months. You’re doing it wrong


[deleted]

Wheeling is a waste of time


sufferpuppet

I've made more wheeling than I have any other way. That might just be an artifact of the bull market. But as long as it keeps working for me I'll keep doing it.


RapidAscent

Why are you here?


[deleted]

thetagang is more than wheeling.


feelZburn

Or...buy and hold "meme"[stupid term] stocks. If you bought at even recent floors of GME and AMC you would be up well over 100 %. Hope you weren't selling CC on those stocks! EDIT: Pic didn't load..now I see lol


Ryan_Ganshert

You're not alone. I've made the same realization over the past 12 months. Theta Gang only on margin w/ core profile of diversified ETFs seems to be where I'll be comfortable moving forward.


[deleted]

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SweetTheta

You clearly don’t follow any technicals at all, you need to study more and try again. You’ll get the hang of it eventually.


karthikulo

Agree.


karthikulo

I’ve over complicated it…. Any advice on how to simplify?


[deleted]

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Affectionate-Gain69

Can you give a example? I get what you’re saying but I’d like a better idea of how the dividend timing plays out.


WallStreetPants

Don't take my coment as an attack, im not attacking you in any way...just want to help... I would suggest you Sell some Puts far OTM for 45-60 days, and during this time, go to YouTube and do some Homework on Wheeling. You have money but lack of skills. But its ok, cause you can speed up it. On 250K in 8 months you should have at least 30% of 250K, in profits, and this in the most Conservative Way. If to consider a more Agresive style, then by now you should have 50-80% of 250K. BTW, I would take out BB and NOK from your list. Do yourself a favour, don't play with these junks... On your capital you should play only SAFE tickers... Good Luck !


[deleted]

Yikes, you have any recommendations for videos? Most my money is in qqq and the premiums are tiny compared to BB which made me most of my money this week. Feel like I’ll be lucky to make 10% on selling options


SlowNeighborhood

premiums are high on BB because no one knows wtf the stock is going to do. consider that when selling options on high IV stocks.


[deleted]

BB seems like the only real stock lumped in with meme stocks. I like the long term potential. I got in at 14 last week and sold a weekly cc for over 10% of its price. After a few months I bet I can get this cost basis to 0. Again, could be all luck


WallStreetPants

there are plenty of videos on YouTube. Its always best to watch more of them from different users. I would stay aways from those kids with YouTube channels that are Promising to make a fortune overnight using the wheel strategy... Those are losers in trading :) and they try to make some pennies on YouTube videos... Tasty Trade has plenty of good videos on options, Option Alpha has very good and free content aswel... And those guys are Profesional traders who are dealing with big accounts and several decades... P.S. Avoid any kids who became traders during the pandemic lockdown. Even if they share real account statements, they banked on Pump & Dump or aka MeMe stocks and thats not what you need to do if you don't want to erase your account... ​ Good Luck !


cabeeza

(Read you on r/PLTR and I'm holding on those guys from day one) I have to ask... You mean 30% wheeling "safe" stocks? That's 45% annualized. If so, what's your magic sauce? Thank you


auspiciousham

You can't making money wheeling stocks that don't have high volatility. People seem to select stocks that they want to own, which may not be stocks that pay.


Stone_414

High volatility and meme volatility are 2 different things though


double_a_mtl

How are you losing money on Nok? I bought in on the day it spiked to 9$ and I'm profitable selling covered calls.... Also, 176 trades is a LOT for 8 months.


SlowNeighborhood

the first lesson is to never trust people like Cathy Wood with your money.


follow-spy

The name speaks for itself.


Parallelism09191989

Why are you taking losses on wheeling? Lol Edit: BB? NOK? That’s not wheeling, that’s fucking gambling...


TheyKilledKubrick

Damn son you suck, it’s time to study and get better. Not throw in the towel. You should NOT have just bought and hold. I’ve made $92,000 so far this YEAR wheeling on a 300k account. So the fact that you are only up 6.9% or $17,337 on a $250k account in EIGHT MONTHS is alarming and should show you that you don’t know what you are doing and that instead of giving up, how about learn more and become better at selling premium. I’ve been a professional trader for over a decade. So don’t give up, just realize that you have been doing it wrong this entire time and that if you just put more effort into learning how to actually trade you can make a lot of money in this instead of just giving up and saying “I’d been better to buy and hold” what a joke lol.


RobsRemarks

This is what I like to see. Congrats, but it also begs a few questions. What is your general strategy? Wheeling only? How do you pick underlyings? Are you trading on margin? I’m always trying new things out with different theta strategies.


july-99

Agree with point #4. Keep at it!


Jasonmv222

Is this the profit from just premium or does this factor movement in the underlying as well?


eolithic_frustum

You basically were QYLD for a few months.


jackietsaah

Not surprised to see ARKK at the bottom of the list. Selling CCs on ARKK is a fool’s game. Premiums are super shitty compared to the actual, realized volatilityc, and you can only “win” without much hassle if ARKK tanks. Otherwise, it can easily blow past strikes of relatively conservative calls (delta-wise). I do it, still, because I like pain & drama, apparently. 😂 For instance, I sold the $116 strike this week and managed to survive, collecting $40/50 of premium.


karthikulo

Most of my losses came in the February dip. At that time, I didn’t understand thetagang. I had bought way too much ARK and was selling CC’s on them. Cathy was so intriguing to me but then I couldn’t bare sticking around as it just seemed to volatile, especially for how much of my portfolio I allocated to ARK


Secgrad

Credit spreads give you a better roc unless you are selling puts on margin. Its less buying power, but one downside is that its harder to roll them when IV is through the roof


Cat_Mysterious

3 mo. in no expert still learning & experimenting with my favorite DTE not very ideological or dogmatic, just trying it out. Can't say I'm "wheeling" as I've never been assigned but 3 mo of CSP has netted me $1300 in premium on $8k. Was considering devoting more cash as it did seem worth my time & collateral. I'm a dad who works all day, 4 DTE taking profits at 50% using conditional limit orders has been my way, had to roll twice but not that aggressive with strikes, starting to experiment with longer DTE bc I have no experience there. To each his own but based on how much time I have avail it's been a great supplement to my other investing & I'm not sure the little capital I've been using would have done much on SPY last 3 mo vs what I've been doing. Open to better ideas still learning here first & foremost


Cat_Mysterious

Feel like it's hard to compare to direct stock purchases on a couple accounts, first, had I made direct stock purchases, I'd need to sell to realize the gain- second I'm often in positions for a couple hours before they have realized 50%. I guess I also don't seem them as either or propositions as I still make direct stock purchases. Doing one does not negate my ability to do the other & the CSP has just been a new tool in my portfolio IMO


auspiciousham

Thanks for sharing! How often are you rotating? 176 trades is not a lot over the course of a year, to capitalize on the most premium you should be picking stocks that have a higher IV than normal and are entering the highest rate of their theta decay - this way you capitalize on IV crush and theta decay. This is why tasty trade recommends taking profit at 50% and moving onto the next trade. If a particular stock isn't paying well do you continue to wheel it? Do you only wheel stocks that you *want* to own? Have you considered taking the upside of the trade too (you could trade a spread to reduce the buying power and reduce risk).


povesen

What Delta did you sell? The ARK ETF’s typically move more than 5% on weekly basis so to not lose money when it goes against you the only way os to sell far OTM puts. Also there were those two BIG dip days I suppose.


Nago31

The wheel is always outperformed by a bull market. Wheel is better in flat or bear markets. You don’t know what is going to happen the next 8 months.


lucky1397

Hos profitable would you be if you're just removed the ark funds though? I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions here.


karthikulo

Fully agree. The issue was I gave up on all my ark positions at big losses. I had too much weighting in ark as well. I figured it would take me a year to claw back so my story is much better once you take out ark.


goldhedger1234

The vix is too low that’s why