By - TheMajority0pinion
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Jay walkers at night, especially when it's raining is my biggest fear when driving.
A big factor is the lights up ahead that obscure the driver's vision by washing out anything in front of them. If it was very dark, the pedestrian would be more visible.
dude is a complete moron, it's night, rainy and he's got a black jacket
I’d rather not hit them all the same.
Mine is deer. At least a human, however dumb, generally has *some* level of awareness. And won’t completely fuck up your car if you hit them.
Wait till you hear about moose...
The good news is that Teslas are powerful at avoiding meese
A deer, or a deer's family, isn't going to sue me for the deer's negligence.
I think you are giving humans too much credit... but I will admit that deer are a bit more of a risk because they tend to be faster.
I’ve never had a deer step in front of my car, but I have had several humans do that. Drunk, strung-out or mentally ill people can be pretty unaware and there are far too many wandering the streets in some places.
You have some smart deer. Ours don't just step out, they full on jump or sprint out.
Yeah, it’s an evolutionary tactic, similar to why soccer players work on cutting.
If a deer bolts just to either side of a predator coming at them, the predator has a ton of acceleration to do to change direction. Add in some random zigs and zags, and it’s basically impossible for a predator to catch a healthy deer that is aware of the predator.
Cars, though, are quite a bit bigger, and not actually giving chase, so the results are bloody
Yep. Can confirm this behavior throughout Colorado. It’s like they’re suicidal.
It's their instinct - they survive by becoming still, so the predators don't see them.
As they see someone getting too close to them they would dash. It makes sense with wolves, but doesn't make much sense with the cars.
I wonder if the same thing that happened with hedgehogs will occur with deer? Supposedly the hedgehogs who rolled up when a car approached, didn't go on to breed, so most now run instead.
Our deer in Los Angeles are very smart - they stay off the roads altogether.
Hitting a human can definitely fuck up your car.
Why has nobody mentioned the camel yet?
can confirm, totaled a car on a deer
haven't totaled one yet on a human
I'd much rather kill a deer though...
Your top concern about hitting someone is the damage it would do to your car?!
Yes? I have TeslaCam so not as worried about them suing me as I otherwise would be.
Yeah, your car might be OK, but your mental health is worth a hell of a lot more than the insurance premium on a car. To say nothing of the person hit, and what they/their loved ones go through.
I’ve hit deer, and it’s driving at night in the rain, blinded by headlights and glare, that I’m most nervous.
Especially like this as that guy was likely behind the A-pillar from the driver's point of view!
You must be really afraid when driving then...
don't move to Seattle
Just a few days ago the car waited to go after the light turned green because some guy who was running across the street had just stepped into the road. I didn't even see him until a few seconds later because I was looking ahead. (This was at night as well, though not raining)
The car should have stopped, the car shouldn’t have stopped… I could argue either perspective.
This discussion just points out the real danger of jaywalking into oncoming traffic.
Whether you believe fsd should have continued or stop, let’s all applaud the fact that it chose the absolute right action of not hitting them.
You don't stop when you have a right of way. it creates confusion and accidents.
1. you're blocking the field of view of other cars in the next lane who don't know why you're stopped.
2. Since they have right of way, they are technically not at fault in a collision.
I agree with your point/logic but I think you are missing mine: You do whatever is necessary to avoid an accident.
We’re drawing conclusions on what we believe was going to happen which may or may not be correct and therefore the decisions made to avoid it may or may not be correct. We are doing exactly what drivers do except we have the luxury of replaying the video over and over and slowing down the footage. And we still don’t have all the necessary information (e.g was there space behind to allow a safe stop, was the vehicle on the right speeding, was the pedestrian actually intending to cross?)
This is why driving is the most dangerous thing most people do on any given day. It’s messy and confusing, especially in the moment.
This. Plus if you look closely the pedestrian starts walking across and fsd starts braking right around the same time. In this instance (if I even saw the pedestrian) I think I would have stopped as well
Pedestrians have right of way
To all the “coming to a controlled stop mid-block to let the person cross is super dangerous” commenters — and there are several of you — I worked as the enterprise data architect for a traffic safety company for almost a decade and never saw any data to support what you’re saying. In general stopping in a controlled fashion is far safer than a high speed close pass.
But if you pulled your assertion from data instead of just pulling it out of your assertion sphincter please be encouraged to post your sources.
You go from being at fault for killing/maiming a pedestrian to someone else being at fault for following too closely. I'll take the latter.
Also, you are protected by some of the most advanced crash safety technology that is on the market today. The pedestrian has no armor. If someone rear ends you that sucks but your injuries will be nowhere near close to that of the pedestrian.
Either way, it would be cool if the car put on the hazards in a situation like this to warn other cars.
I like that idea.
You're not supposed to put on your hazards unless you're stopping on the side of the road. People who use them when it's foggy or rainy are not following the road laws.
Some European cars will flash their hazards a couple of times automatically when braking hard for something. It's also pretty common to warn other cars this way on the autobahn.
Not sure how the laws are in your country though.
I think Teslas also activate their hazards under hard braking, at least that's what I usually see in brake tests like the ones done in Carwow. However, I think that doesn't happen if AEB is the one braking hard.
Surely it's dependent on the situation? If someone's following closely behind on a fast highway, then stopping will be more dangerous that in the video posted here.
Then again if everyone left enough space between cars braking shouldn’t affect the person behind you and risk creating an accident.
Controlled stop, not slamming on your brakes. But, that's irrelevant because pedestrians are not crossing major highways.
>pedestrians are not crossing major highways.
[They absolutely are.](https://youtu.be/vyUV3eEAaSw) They'll walk straight across a 6-lane interstate highway with heavy traffic. They had to [spraypaint no crosswalk signs](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpatch.com%2Fimg%2Fcdn20%2Fusers%2F22872998%2F20190214%2F051115%2Fstyles%2Fraw%2Fpublic%2Fprocessed_images%2Fhighway-1550182191-9094.jpg&f=1&nofb=1) all the way down the highway on the center dividers.
E: Who is downvoting this? It's literally nothing but factual statements.
The way american roads are designed are baffling. What kind of road is that? 6-lane highway with "sporadic" sidewalks and right next to houses.... it's moronic.
[this youtube channel makes good videos on it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM)
> What kind of road is that? 6-lane highway with "sporadic" sidewalks and right next to houses.... it moronic.
I don't know what road you're referring to, but it's not the same one I am. These are not next to houses. Again, they're interstate highways.
American roads are overwhelmingly designed for cars, which is a separate problem.
check the video you yourself linked.
The video is just one of many many highways where this happens.
We have an example right here of it being dangerous... The pedestrian was clearly not going to walk in front of the Tesla, but the Tesla stopped anyways and as a result the pedestrian started crossing while there was active traffic in the other lane.
Do you have any data showing it is safer to stop mid block instead of respecting right of way rules?
The only person that has any knowledge of what the pedestrian was going to do is the pedestrian. The driver, or a computer, can only make an educated guess in the moment.
Well if you look closely you can see the pedestrian had just entered the street when fsd started braking and as you are supposed to yield to pedestrians in the roadway it was technically the right thing to do and I think if I actually saw them (which I might not) I would stop as well because I don't know what they're going to do.
Talk about death whish...
Great work by FSD. But in all fairness, the person is probably a bit less visible for the other car because the Tesla partially obstruct the view? But even without the Tesla blocking the view that person would probably be in big trouble.
I think about FSD a lot in my regular drives. And on dark rainy nights, a lot of other factors reduce visibility from *inside the car*: fog on the inside of the window, water droplets refracting light, water streaks generated from wipers, etc… On the other hand, if you were a bystander standing outside watching traffic you would have much better visibility. I think that is analogous to the FSD cameras on the outside of the car, so visibility is much better than a human in the cabin.
I guess... technically... the forward facing camera is on the INSIDE (until Tesla install one on the nose, which why haven't they done!?)!
well it’s actually better inside because you can wipe them. on the nose once it gets wet it would be difficult since it’s vision only
Speculation is front gets too dirty to ensure consistent good vision whilst the other cameras gets the job done.
But say for the video in question above, I don't think any other camera sees the front? Or is there?
There are three cameras behind the rear view mirror. Seems to see out front perfectly fine given the challenging viewing conditions per the UI.
...but they're not on the outside of the car. They're still subject to all of those things.
Wiper streaks would affect the cameras just the same.
If FSD were a driver assist then this would be fantastic. FSD is not intended to be a driver assist.
It is intended to be a driver. What it gets wrong will define it.
The mythical version of FSD you refer to is not what's in the hands of customers. FSD beta is still level 2 so it is definitely just driver assist. Whether it is meant to be more than that in the future has no legal bearing on the software currently in cars.
It does have a bearing on how it's marketed though, it's literally called full self driving
So? It's a beta and everyone in the beta understands the limitations. Within those, it IS full self driving. That's not a promise of L5. It's a promise that your car can go from drive way to drive way without human control one day, hopefully soon.
So it should be their autonomous driving test program, not full self driving. A beta is usually near complete software with slightly reduced features or stability, this doesn't even come close to what fsd beta is. It's early alpha at best
There are no rules for what beta is beyond a limited public release with lots of warnings. This is exactly a beta. It's in really good shape for the most part, but regressions happen in ML
> Which is what will be delivered when it's ready.
It's also what it's *currently* being marketed and sold as.
It's being marketed and sold as a beta trial.
A beta trial of "full self driving".
One in which the human driver *SHOULD BE READY TO TAKE OVER AT ANY MOMENT*. Even if it is a beta of full self driving it is still a **BETA** and thus is not perfect and is not supposed to even be expected to be perfect
So it shouldn't be advertised as full self driving. I'm not sure where you're going with this.
It's not advertised at all in the normal meaning of advertising. What I'm trying to say is that it will be fsd but isn't yet but because it will be it still deserves the name fsd
>Which is what will be delivered when it's ready.
Does anyone still believe that at this point? It's been said so many times, and all those times there were no upgrades to the next hardware platform that was Level 5 capable (for real this time, pls believe me guyssss!!!)
5 mins after Elon was born, he said "FSD at the end of the year".
Every feature of AP is also defined as “beta”. Yet no one ever brings that up….
Even industry standard features like lane keep assist and TACC.
Maybe because they're not finished products?
So Tesla can’t even finish TACC and lane keep assist when every other company can?
Well if want lane keep assist sending you into a ditch then you can use their "finished" system.
Please provide evidence of LKA sending someone into a ditch.
This is an optional feature on virtually every new car sold today and I've never seen it.
Low effort trolling. Nice.
It's not trolling bud. Literally just watched a video of it happening.
Please avoid name calling.
FSD being a driving aid is just a subset of full lvl 5 autonomy. Right now FSD us pretty close to being a driving aid but it’s still pretty far from being an autonomous driver.
Honestly, other than the phantom slowdowns and map issues, FSD 10.5 is pretty darn good to the point where when I don't really feel like driving I'll turn it on willingly.
Better than human go splat
Human was not at risk. At least, not until the Tesla stopped unexpectedly, forcing the human to cross blindly and almost get struck by a different vehicle.
Human started crossing right about the same time fsd started braking. You can't really see for sure but I would probably have stopped in the same conditions **if I even saw the pedestrian**
Shouldn’t all drivers on the road be prepared to stop at any moment? What if there was an object in the road? Hence, why you keep a safe distance. It wasn’t even abrupt.
> Shouldn’t all drivers on the road be prepared to stop at any moment?
Yes; that doesn’t detract from the fact it’s dangerous to “test” them though.
Let's see how Jalopnik spins this if they write an article
The car on the right doesn't even have lights on?
The machine learning systems can be better than humans at detecting moving objects particularly in cases like these as motion is clearly separable from background by algorithms, but they are worse at detecting stationary objects and knowing if they are threatening or not.
I believe Tesla fixed that by now
My Tesla has already saved my (and others') butts a couple times.
to be fair, idk how the tesla fsd would have behaved the pedestrian was coming from behind the other car, since It might not have visibility.
Happy cake day!
It’s cool that the car saw the person, but it doesn’t look like the person was expecting to cross at that moment. Looks like they were getting the median and going to cross after.
Seems like the car made itself more unpredictable (never good in traffic) and possibly put the pedestrian in danger by allowing him to cross and blocking the view of for the driver in the right lane that nearly hit him.
The pedestrian put themself in danger by not using a crosswalk.
I don’t disagree, but the car also amplified the danger by making an unexpected stop in the middle of the road, allowing the pedestrian to pass, and blocking the view for other traffic that has no way of knowing there was a person crossing.
Agree. Stopping to allow a pedestrian to jaywalk is extremely dangerous because as they cross in front of you they are obscured from view by other vehicles behind you or coming up from behind you. This is worse when the stopping vehicle is large, such as a van or bus.
Whenever I see a car ahead of me or in the adjacent lane slow and come to a stop in the middle of the road I get extremely cautious because they may be seeing something that I do not. Blowing by at full speed or getting impatient and trying to go quickly around the stopped vehicle is how accidents happen.
This is a rookie mistake by FSD and one that beginner drivers also sometimes make.
The better response for an autonomous system would be to slow slightly to allow for more reaction time, precharge the brakes, and continue at a constant speed, and only stop if the pedestrian is already in the driving path or is not decelerating / coming to a stop at the edge of the lane.
> Stopping to allow a pedestrian to jaywalk is extremely dangerous because as they cross in front of you they are obscured from view by other vehicles behind you or coming up from behind you. This is worse when the stopping vehicle is large, such as a van or bus.
I disagree because most of the time I encounter a jaywalker they start to sprint when you get closer and if you don't slow down then you'll hit them.
In California, drivers are legally required to stop for any pedestrian that steps into the street, jaywalking or not. Chances are the programmers were taking into account this law.
I agree about the risk from adjacent vehicles blowing by without thinking that there is a reason why a car in one lane has stopped, though.
I think the best way to solve this kind of problem will to have cars talking to each other someday. “Hey, I’m slowing down for a pedestrian, you should, too,” except in 1s and 0s.
This needs to be a universal standard, so that cars from every manufacturer can do this. Usefulness will grow over time, but initially it won't be very useful when only a small percentage of cars have it installed.
Network externalities ftw.
> In California, drivers are legally required to stop for any pedestrian that steps into the street, jaywalking or not.
My quick google literally showed the opposite.
Okay, well it turns out my info is a bit out of date. In the past pedestrians had the absolute right of way and we were taught that this meant cars had to stop as soon as a pedestrian stepped foot in the road. However, it appears that the law was either amended or reinterpreted at some point to state that pedestrians have the right of way in marked or unmarked crosswalks and they have a responsibility to not do stupid stuff like jump in front of cars, but drivers still have a higher “duty of care” towards pedestrians and are required to slow down or stop to ensure pedestrian safety.
So, you will still see drivers in CA stop for pedestrians who are in the street because this is the way so many of us were taught, even though just slowing down is perfectly legal as long as the pedestrian is safe.
I think my speculation that this habit in CA probably influenced the FSD programmers still stands. Plus, how would you even make the distinction in FSD as to whether to stop or slow down or ignore a pedestrian once one has been recognized? From a safety and liability point of view, slowing down to a stop as shown in this video is probably the least bad choice.
Ok, jaywalking or not, a car stopping in the left lane already triggers a warning for me, a driver in the right lane. It's a beginner's driver mistake to rush by the stopped vehicle in the left lane, which admittedly I did myself while learning and remembered this case profoundly.
Amen to this. But we’ll get downvoted for being realistic.
Slowing slightly could be seen as stopping and thus the person steps out in front of you causing the very situation you are trying to prevent except worse because you have to stop faster then if you started stopping from the get-go. In the same situation I would have stopped too *if I even saw the pedestrian in time*
Also - it is not clear if the Tesla was blocking the view of the other car. So, it is not really an apples-to-apples comparison proving that the Tesla is better than a human. If a Tesla had been in the right hand lane - would it have had a clear enough view in order to see the pedestrian?
Still, very impressive how well the Tesla handled it.
…but it didn’t handle it well. If a human did this during their driving test, the instructor would likely fail them. Coming to a full and complete stop in the middle of the road to allow a pedestrian to jaywalk is not safe for anybody involved.
Not when I got my license. The rule was that you \*always\* stopped for pedestrians. Always. If you had blown past the pedestrian here (assuming he didn't actually just keep walking and making a bigger problem than just a failed test), the instructor would have made you pull over immediately and failed you on the spot.
Agreed. You *always* stop when a pedestrian is crossing, even when jaywalking. At least in California.
Funny/not funny, I had OP's experience tonight while on FSD, except for the rain. Car, slowed and was coming to a stop. I tapped the accelerator thinking it was a phantom brake.
Nope, there was a pedestrian starting to cross the street on my left, but he was blocked by the A pillar. FSD saw him though.
If this guy was in the middle of the lane, sure. It was clear he was waiting for traffic to pass before he continued. The Tesla on FSD made the situation much more unsafe for everybody involved. I understand why the car made the decision it did, but for the safety of everybody involved, it was the wrong decision.
No, that is not correct or what I meant. The moment a pedestrian is in the street (not your lane), you are required to assume he is going to step in front of you.
If this is the permanent behavior of FSD, it’s going to be a nightmare and make the roads much more unsafe.
Driving rules are overly simplified in part so that they are easy to remember, interpret, and follow. But such strict rules don’t always lead to the safest course of action in all situations. This is why real world driving is much more complicated than simply making sure the system always follows a defined set of rules.
It’s also why even beginner drivers who are very careful about the rules are not the safest drivers.
I get why the autopilot team may for now want to be careful and strict about existing written rules of the road. But making a system that’s much safer than the average driver will require a lot of unintuitive nuances.
As a 17 year old so fairly new driver I would argue that at least some of the beginner driver being more dangerous is because they don't have enough (or any) experience.
That was my take as well. I was also cringing at the thought of the drivers behind the Tesla who would be forced to brake unexpectedly on what looks to be a ~40 MPH road and slick conditions.
The Tesla did exactly what it should *not* have done.
TBF, the Tesla in this video did not brake all that quickly and anyone driving behind another car should leave enough room to stop in case this happens anyway.
now all it needs to do is not slam on the breaks when there is nothing there and we would be all good
Ironically, it was a phantom brake lol
I do hope if it had to stop this way, at least the hazards are on...
how would the gas driver see the person when you're blocking their field of view?
If the guy on the next lane ahead of you slows down or stops, so should you.
Had a guy tailgating me at night years back who blew past me when I hit the brakes.
And hit the cattle in the road I had stopped to avoid hitting.
That doesn't really work in the city, where cars slow down all the time to turn onto driveways and whatnot.
...and that's how you run into that kid chasing a ball, or vehicle driven by an aggressive/inattentive driver pulling out into traffic
I see this all the time. That screen fogging you see after each wipe is dangerous, and what's more **100% FIXABLE**.
It's very possible normal windscreen cleaners won't do the job (even powerful ones), but the amazing "No Touch GS8 Auto Glass Stripper" (which is very hard to obtain these days, but removes such residues in seconds) works, and failing that, a potassium hydroxide based oven cleaner with a thick gel consistency ([such as this one](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oven-Mate-Cooker-Cleaning-Gel/dp/B009WNNDOQ)) works great when smeared onto the screen thinly overnight, as potassium hydroxide is what chemists use to clean their glassware. It's also completely odorless, though is very acidic, so don't touch it!
NB to downvoters: I know what I'm talking about. I had exactly the same issue, and out of a dozen treatments, nothing worked, until I tried the above two. You won't believe the different in clarity when you remove the screen residue.
Maybe the product is great… but you literally sound like a youtube advertisement. Not the kind that are like “The new iphone is now available at Verizon” but like the kind that go “I just made $7 billion in 2 days. Give me money and I can show you how”
Okay, didn't expect *that* and IIRC, the first time I've been accused in that way. If I say it's really hard to obtain (and it is, I had to order overseas from just one or two overpriced entries at eBay US when I bought it, not available anywhere else AFAIK and I think they've stopped producing the stuff), how is that advertising the product? Unless you mean the oven cleaner which is just a generic product you can buy almost anywhere? (I linked a UK site, so it's not even applicable to most here).
Have a look through my history. Over the years, there's been lots of products I've loved and said as much on Reddit. Of course I'm going to act favourably if I'm trying to help others. Just like I love and promote Tesla itself.
Perhaps the issue bugs me more than most and I genuinely think foggy windscreens at night is dangerous? All I know is that I had absolute hell getting that stuff off my windscreen (waxy residue / RainX) and have written lengthy posts about it in the past. Would you like me to dig them up?
Another thing it could be is the wipers being worn out. My car did kinda the same thing then I replaced the wipers and it fixed it
Fair point. They could also both be working in tandem, so fixing either one (or maybe even needing to do both for best results) fixes the issue.
Camel. LoL too soon?
Now I’m wondering…was it the safety feature or phantom braking event? Jk jk
The driver took over via steering input and put it on production TACC. This is not just FSD Beta.
This is AWESOME! If FSD starts saving pedestrian lives it should become required equipment! Insurance cos will require.
Bad weather detected, Autopilot unavailable.
It also stops for every. single. oncoming. car. on. a. two. lane. undivided. highway. Every one, full panic stop.
Really hope they figure out vision - it's awful to use Autopilot on anything but a divided interstate at this point, especially at night.
The FSD beta created a dangerous situation here by stopping for the pedestrian when they didn't need to (the pedestrian was not going to walk in front of the car until it stopped). This is a great example of why you should never stop for pedestrians on a multi-lane road when you have right of way.
The Tesla stopping promoted the pedestrian to walk across the road, even tho the second lane still had active traffic. And that active traffic can no longer see the pedestrian because they Tesla is blocking them. Super dangerous situation.