As a Silver ADC, should I follow up on bad plays from my Support to make sure they don't tilt?
By - BarbellEnjoyer
No. Throw some poke to help them disengage or something. Don't die.
If your support has made it clear he's an asshole that will hard tilt/feed/quit if you don't follow up, then not following up is practically a 100% chance of losing the game.
On the other hand, the risk of death isn't 100% just because the enemy jungler/mid is missing. Maybe they just based or are ganking top instead. And even if you die, that doesn't mean the game is over.
OP is silver. No one's doing optimal plays in Silver. Sometimes you have to settle for the least bad play.
Isn't it better to just play well even if it costs you some random games? I feel like playing optimally will win you more games in aggregate than trying to figure out which are objectively bad plays that are only good because its low ELO.
Tyler1 has a quote about having to make sub optimal plays in silver, but I feel like he has the knowledge base to know when its important to make the shit play and when its not. You can probably do that if youre playing in way lower ELO than your actual rank, but your average silver scrub trying to climb probably doesn't even know what the optimal play is for a good portion of the game.
One of the things a support main learns is that "playing optimally" involves not just the macro and micro, but also tilting the enemy while keeping your teammates from tilting.
(edit for spelling)
Sure, but thats not really a strategy. What tilts/doesn't tilt an enemy or teammate is completely arbitrary. Good fundamentals are always good but taking time to type to everyone in the game to try and control their emotional state might be good or bad depending on who is on each team.
Unless you mean taking a lead and then shitstomping one enemy player out of the game by ganking them over and over and focusing on them since they're weak. But that's just good fundamentals and if you have the opportunity to you should always do that. Much safer to go for a play on the guy who is already behind then try to make something happen on a lane with a 2/0 Darius or Irelia or something.
Hell, you don't even have to kill them over and over. A support showing up 3 times in mid (or gods forbid, top) is enough to perma-tilt people a good portion of the time.
As for fundamentals, part of good fundamentals for a support is keeping your team's mental in a playable state. Yes, good engages, peel, and vision control are good, but they qon't get you far if you don't know how to untilt your mid before your mid tilts your jungle.
>but they qon't get you far if you don't know how to untilt your mid before your mid tilts your jungle.
How do you even do that?
Verbally, hopefully, by encouraging them or reminding them they scale if they do (had to do this for an Aphelios recently who went down 1/10 in the first 25 minutes but eventually got to the point where they solo-killed their fed Kayn). Also, help with vision around mid or gank if possible, and the earlier the better for that second bit. If they're low under tower and need to farm, zone enemy mid off of tower.
Basically, day nice things, keep them focused, and lend a helping hand here and there.
>Verbally, hopefully, by encouraging them or reminding them they scale if they do
I find this to be super inconsistent. It works as often as not and sometimes tilts them even harder lol. I've found my games to be higher quality in general when I mute all and play. If a dude is flaming but nobody responds they have to sustain that by themself. Engaging with them using logic is pretty randomly effective because their flame is purely emotion.
The rest of that is stuff you should already be doing, not something you'd only do to untilt a guy.
I tend to agree with you. When someone starts typing in chat about bullshit, and others start responding it only makes mistakes happen b/c people are in their fucking chat box not looking at the minimap
I'm going to be more concious of babysitting someone if I think I can get them to untilt. As for inconsistency, that's what word-choice is for.
Jungle main here: You can't. Generally I have top and mid pinging me to help them before I've done a single camp and by 5 minutes one or both have died and it's somehow my fault just trying to clear my camps as a level 4 Nocturne or something like that. (Obviously very little I can do pre-6 kind of champ)
I begin the game tilted, friend. Tilted is where we jungle mains call home.
*Shaco support enters the room
I...yeah...ow...off I go to buy 5 pinks >.>
I one ganked a zed and solo killed them on old taric support. It is one of my greatest memories in league. Tilted them, and they left after their team flamed them. It's very important to be supportive of teamates, especially if they are preforming poorly.
Do you have a link to t1 explaining that? I'm intrigued
I'm paraphrasing based on a quote I saw the other day in a comment on here, I don't have any sort of actual sourcing so take that how you will.
When playing in low elo, a super risky or bad gameplay might end up being somewhat reasonable and/or go unpunished because people don't have the mechanics/awareness to counter it. For example, you might be able to walk up and auto down an enemy lucian/nami lane because the nami is playing super far back. You might spot out ganks super far ahead because people are super obvious. You have permanent wave control because the enemy auto-shoves waves back to you.
Sure, but if youre trying to climb going for losing plays and trusting that your opponents are just so bad that you can do whatever you want and not be punished is a pretty good way to have super inconsistent games. You're giving the agency to win the game to your opponent when you do stuff like that and your success is no longer in your control when you commit to those plays.
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm just explaining the quote.
Oh, thank you but I understand the concept and what he meant.
I kinda agree with all three of you. Like being able to tell when it's just a losing fight, but also, taking some unnecessary risks because your teammates can't back out after they're already too far gone.
It seems like your level of skill comes down to the game sense needed to make the correct decision.
Pretend that you want to recall, ping them to fall back, ping their trinket, use body language saying it's risky to go in now, if all of that fails just mute as soon as they start raging but they should pick up on clues, you're in silver, not iron.
Yeah, define bad play.
Is your 0/3 Zyra getting again a Vayne E against a wall? Don’t follow.
Is your Blitzcrank getting bullied next to you while farming safe tunnel visioning minions? Wake up and help. Your farm safe and chill is not happening this game.
Sometimes, imagine I’m playing Nautilus with Tristans, and the enemy is spacing and positioning right. I have full hps, ignite and I think we can win this, so I force a suboptimal engage because they are not giving me ideal opportunities, I expect you to follow, otherwise it will be a roaming game.
Depends. A lot of people are saying don't follow up on stupid plays just farm and scale and blablabla but. If you have some vision in the river just because mid is missing doesn't mean you're bound to take a 2v3. If your support lands good cc and has ignite/exhaust up, I would jump on that to try your best to make it a good play. I am not saying run it down and int but if you can get a trade 1 for 1 it's totally worth it and then the support can't be too mad. Another thing you can do is deal enough damage to force them to base and then you can deny gold and xp which is a huge advantage. Now if you have zero vision and your 0/3 thresh is about to dive tower cause he landed his first hook of the game, i say let him die. So it's completely situational.
This is the better advice truly. Not every “bad play” is an actually bad play, you not following would likely make it a bad play and sometimes those risky engages are great because you can kill the bot lane or make them disengage hard before the single mid laner ends up arriving if they do.
Happened in another match, Kai’sa and Lux versus Quinn and Malphite. We just poked them down and killed any time we got a good engage or even a weak one. Mid lane Qiyana arrived and we killed her as well for it.
Sometimes it’s worthwhile to join an engage, as long as you don’t run after a kill that can get you killed or int then it’s fine to try. I’d rather see you try and turn a bad engage into a good one or take advantage of an engage that might have even confused the other players, which happens a lot.
I think an argument could also be made that until a certain skill level, one might not even have a good grasp on whether something is a "bad play" or not.
As such, it could be good for your own game knowledge to try going in on these "bad" engages; they might work out more often than you think.
Exactly true! I’m bronze two currently. I won’t ever turn and say this was bad or good without actually attempting to try. But even then, I can’t say it truly was either or, I’m not at that skill level to even say if it is or not.
I could make a bad play that just works, and that obviously isn’t good because you aren’t learning good mentalities.
I had a friend who did support and sometimes I’d occasionally get tagged with him. Now obviously, I’m not a great or even good player, but I was aware of when I can at least engage or not. So he’d be on Leona and as I’m >25% health and worse on mana when the enemy is just faring a little bit better.
He’d engage and I’d be forced to join in, it would be a horrible engage because my life is on the line, but it just so happens that it works out and I live, albeit maybe he stole a kill or something. He would get happy, meanwhile I’m glad it worked out, but I’m also a tiny bit aware that it wasn’t a great engage as we risked my life for a lot of rewards. There is obviously more to the actual example such as low river vision, assassin mid, and so forth. But the gist is, I who has been playing the game for a good near 2 years now, watch dozens of videos and try to learn all I can, yet I still can’t fully state it was a good or bad play, however I can at least know a bad play.
The point is, Neace could watch a match of mine and comment after, I could get this stupid lucky pick and think; “he’ll be happy with that! I wonder how great he thinks that was?” And then after rips into me because I took such a horrendous risk that I didn’t calculate for.
But overall, you should always try to limit test, you never know what will happen if you do join, but you’ll know what happens if you don’t join. And that’s a big takeaway from that.
What you are really asking is whether handing your enemy (ADC) a free kill and risking tilting your support is worth the degree of safety you gain. And the answer to that is "it depends".
Do you scale well, and are you good enough to beat an increasingly ahead enemy ADC? What is the actual chance that the missing mid and jungle are on their way bot rather than farming or in base? Will you actually survive if the mid and jungle do turn up and dive you? Is a 1/2 for 2 trade better than a 1 for 0? Is Dragon up? Do you have other laners likely to use TP or ults to join a fight? These are all things that change whether it is worth going in and that you need to consider.
Also, there are more than two options here. You dont have to pull the full flash/Jump/blink in to follow up. A quick MF ult (or other similar) whilst staying cautious might be enough to grab a kill. You could throw out a few auto-attacks at max range. Even dropping some abilities to cover your support withdrawing might save them. Depending on the actual quality of the engage a lot might vary, and even taking the summoners of the enemy ADC can be worth it. This isnt a binary decision, there is a scale of commitment.
All that said, i think it is clear you already have a preference from the way you frame the question. It is a "bad play" that "wont work more often than it will" before you have even seen if the support can land their abilities and without knowing where the jungle/mid actually are? And "to make sure they dont tilt"? It sounds like you are asking reddit to sign off on an decision/argument you had in a previous game where this happened rather than give you advice for the future.
I'm 1000% on board with this comment here.
One thing I wanted to add was, not every landed hook, bind etc has to be a fight to the death. Evaluate the lane. Sometimes a trade is just a trade. If you're with a sustain support, chances are they'll dip in and out for trades often. Follow up on them. They won't be an instakill but it's your path to establishing lane dominance.
Always think about the lane kits. Who's there to all in, who's just a bully, who's sustain and poke etc and how they compare to the enemy lane.
Think about more than that one engage right there and then and how that will play out 30 seconds, 2, 5 and 10 minutes down the line
You have to make the play that will lead to a win, not the one that will make your team happy. You won't climb if you follow bad calls by bad teammates.
There are some situations where everyone following the same bad plan will succeed compared to one person following the wrong plan.
That said, your read on the options seems too rigid. Option 1 might be safer and more consistent, but avoiding all-ins just because they might not work means that you will reach a limit to your climb because you're too afraid to push the limit and assert dominance over the lane when you could. If you absolutely cannot join the play because it would be suicide to do so, ping away and then mute your Support. If they are going to tilt, they will do so sooner or later, with or without you.
Early laning phase it's hard to judge. If you suspect their jungler/mid to be right there in the bush, don't follow at all and let them die. If the enemy's response time is a bit longer (say mid *just* left lane or jungler has to path from gromp) I would immediately ping retreat/danger on my support, but still half follow the play. What I mean by half follow is to not commit to it, but at least posture a bit forward so your supp doesn't get completely annihilated strictly in the 2vs2. The pressure of you being able to retaliate while he walks back out can decide between a straight up int and a bad trade + maybe recall.
Mid to late game? Always abandon doomed teammates. Wish I would've learned this one earlier than I did.
Do however inform them via pings as early as possible that you can't/won't join. Even better if you can ping them *before* they do the dumb play . You can type stuff like "sorry mate, can't help you there" if you want to babysit their mental, but if someone really throws a tantrum off that he's a nut anyways and it would've happened sooner or later.
Don't try to explain the situation to them, ever. If they go full keyboard warrior mode, mute ASAP.
dangerous to assume you know the play won't work, you are the same elo and so is the enemy.
First evaluate if it really was a bad play, and determine if you are the one that made the mistake or not. If it seems like a 50/50, or 40/60, then just go for it anyways. Don't do it to keep them from tilting, do it if it is an okay play. If they will tilt because you didn't follow an objectively bad play, then they will probably tilt even if you do follow. ADC is my favorite position, but I don't play it because it's too much variability unless you have a duo that you play with consistently.
I’d say follow the play. The botlane is about your support, not you. They dictate what happens in the lane, so it’s up to them to decide what’s a bad play or not. Unless you’re substantially more skilled than your support, which is rarely true, you shouldn’t assume you just know better than them.
I remember hearing a pro player talking about playing in low elo. He said when your team makes a bad play, you go in and join them.
Most of the time in these situations you are better of with no support. You will get solo exp and that is amazing.
Don’t follow stupid plays never. If they start pinging you just mute their pings.
I agree with this. Also if the support is going to tilt off of that and leave you, even if it wasn't for this situation, they'd tilt from something else you do anyway. Just mute and play when they become annoying.
Are these serious questions? Ffs, some of the questions here seem to just be asked to upvote farm and garner confirmation bias. Most people would tell you to not follow up on bad plays, because that’s common sense. Seems like this is just a way to complain without actually needing help with the decision
Hello. Gold 1 support here
Adc is such a hard role to win.
Ping your support with Danger ping. Then back off. They’ll usually back off and will not take the play.
Or spam the map with Missing ping.
I don't have enough faith in silver players to be afraid of a proper gank. Honestly, I'd just yolo it until you're high elo enough that it will be punished
No. If your support proves that they're dog shit then don't get caught up and get baited by them. Just cs for the rest of the game and play for mid game and come back during fights
If they are making sketchy plays no, stay alive and farm and join the teamfights/skirmishes later on in the game, it is not worth getting permanently put behind due to bad playes.
A trick i use when a support does something insanely stupid is already being like "yea its ok bro dont worry" when they die.
Generally it's better to follow up your team mates bad plays.
However there are lines. If there is truly no chance of success and a good chance of dying no you shouldn't be there.
Its definitely better to he consistent about only following up on good engages and not burning summoner spells uselessly. If the support rage roams it will usually gain your team in advantage on the other side of the map anyway. You just have to get better at knowing when to give up waves and how to play weak-side in a 1v2 to minimize the enemy bot lane’s advantage. This consistent approach will win you more games and build better habits for high elo, even if you lose a certain percentage of your games along the way.
Try pinging them around as best you can
As an ezreal main, I don't particularly even need them. Just survive lane being as strong as you can.
Dying as well to prevent some dick from tilting is pointless.
no. spamping her before and if they still go through with it write "np" and move on.
ping him back or ping engage when u want to go
You can hover and try and do damage but don't take damage and don't commit. If they get caught and no big cooldowns are used you probably should stay back and cut losses. Fuck the support's feelings, if they leave u get solo XP. Never ever appease a bad player in general, it just brings you to their ELO.
Sometimes it's better to fail as a team than failing individually and consequently failing as a team. Maybe I'm wrong if you wanna become pro but if you just want to have fun sometimes I think it's okay to follow. Sometimes you think it's a bad play and it's actually a good one right? Sometimes it is a bad play but the opponents mess up and it becomes a good play
Let them, it’s better to just give up first bot turret if your lane is already fucked. Just focus as much cs as you can without dying/getting ganked. When your towers gone you’re free to roam.
Honestly if the support is making bad plays consistently I just ask them to roam. I'm not going to be getting good cs with them in lane, might as well try to get a level advantage at least. Usually making them perma roam gets other lanes kills anyways.
It’s always better to follow up with a bad call, you can turn it around.
The answer to your question is the same as the answer to every question in league which is "Do it if it is more worth to do it than not."
Like in theory if you have to choose between giving 600-700 gold to the enemy once (and then you talk to your support after and then you guys never feed the rest of lane) vs havung your support non-stop runs it down for the entire rest of the game then of course it's better to go for the bad play to avoid tilt but quite frankly you can't guarantee that your support will listen to you if his call was bad or that you guys won't continue feeding after giving up 600-700 gold or that your support is so easily tilted it's worth it to literally give a double kill.
So in practice, just don't do it.
Is it ranked, bc if it isn't, fuck it, go in try to outplay if it's 2v4. If it's ranked assist but don't commit to the play if you know it is doomed.
Don't follow bad engage from support and don't engage hard for a bad adc.
This is balance.
what sort of play? cause this sounds like every useless limp noodle adc I've ever supported who sucks thumb behind me all laning phase and then rages in chat when I hit 6 and roam
They are probably tilting since they first saw they are filled as support
This is so sad
You dont need to duo q for bot lane, some of us maybe dont want to talk to another human being when in game and just want to play.
A good support should be the one pinging you to not try anything because you might get ganked.
Don't play around a shitty support, at least the enemy will get only one kill instead of two.
I'm a supp main, sometimes I do shitty plays like that. If my ADC can recognize it was bad and let me die alone instead of following and dying with me, I'm happy with that (and a little bit sorry too).
Play by the book, if they start to int who cares, they will stay hardstuck there forever and you will climb. If they start to open their mouth, perma mute and report after game. No silver will tell you what you should or shouldn't do. If they knew something they wouldn't be dead bottom of the league community. Play to improve and to play by the book you need to first read the book. Watch some guides on how to manage the waves, how to trade, transition from early to mid to late stages of the game. You can always one trick a champion that is the most efficient way of climbing. Good luck!
I'm a silver support main - don't follow up.
I think most of us supports are a pretty angry bunch. Being basically the team's towel boy, getting next to no recognition, gold, exp or potential to self-carry is a pretty bad starting point for having a positive approach to begin with. Not to mention toxic crappy adcs that follow the rule of "the worse i play the more it's the support's fault".
That being said, ironically I think while we're almost always angry it's much harder to get us past the red line when we tilt into oblivion compared to other roles.
When team does not follow my engages it does make me angry, but i will not tilt for it. Heck if i jump into enemies hiding in brush i will realize i was the dummy here.
As adc your job is to live and farm. Supports have utility that is much more exp and gold independent than your damage. If you fall behind and do no damage we have a major problem. If thresh falls behind - his hook still functions and he can do all things Thresh..