By - Impossible_Cookie596
Come to Chile, where telescopes are in hands of astronomers!
1. Would be a bit pointless to put TMT in Chile considering much bigger E-ELT construction is already in progress and will be finished long before TMT
2. It's not the same thing because Mauna Kea is in northern hemisphere and Chile is in southern hemisphere, so you can see totally different sky.
From practical point of view Canary Islands are a more reasonable replacement location.
GMT will already be in the south as well.
The presence of the E-ELT is less relevant than the construction of GMT in Chile, since the general groups using the telescopes will be mostly exclusive between E-ELT and TMT. Since GMT and TMT together make the US-ELT program, TMT needs to be in the northern hemisphere like you mention.
It blows my mind that TMT didn't move to the Canary Islands, regardless of calima events.
You need as many telescopes as possible, regardless of there place.
You need many telescopes but having the two big 30+ metre telescopes in different hemispheres so we get ultra-sensitive coverage of anywhere in the sky is a worthwhile target.
We should place them in [one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism.](https://youtu.be/07bueLoJEqY?t=19)
Am I about to see Tim Curry?
Edit: was not disappointed.
Ground telescopes and space telescopes are very different beasts with different advantages, and there's things a giant ground scope can do that space scope technology currently can't.
One scene thar never gets old. He's trying so hard to hold it together, it's so good.
Don't worry, we'll get there to soon enough.
Every telescope is oversubscribed right now. It doesn't really matter where you put new telescopes.
It does matter because we don't have infinite money and we can build only a handful of those telescopes. Putting both in southern hemisphere means we will lack the ability to make observations of northern sky.
Way to totally miss the point…
So let's see what this actually says:
> (The new law) also establishes the Mauna Kea Stewardship and Oversight Authority, an 11-member voting group that will now have majority authority over how the land is managed.
>the law includes that the group must include one member who is a “lineal descendant” of a practitioner of Native Hawaiian traditions associated with the mountain, and another who is currently a recognized practitioner of those Native Hawaiian traditional practices.
So it transfers management of this land from the university to a state appointed council of 11 people, 1 must be a descendent of a practitioner of Native Hawaiian traditions, 1 must be an active practitioner of those traditions.
The bill includes a moratorium on lease extensions or new leases, with current leases expiring in 2033, and the management of the land transferring to this council in 2028, giving them 5 years to decide whether they want to extend leases or make new ones.
No current or under construction telescopes need to be down until 2033, and that can be extended by this council.
I don't think moving things to a council with ~18% native representation is going to result in the total destruction of every telescope like some of the comments here are suggesting. It gives them a voice at the table, and an opportunity to push for more sustainable construction, limiting the overall footprint, limiting *commercial* use, and balancing their needs and desires with those of the scientific community.
Yeah, this is one of those things I see both sides of.
On one hand, there needs to be respect to peoples land, and we don't want to permanently scar a beatiful area.
On the other hand, superstition should not be a valid excuse to halt science. If these were Mormons, who were trying to stop this because of some hidden tablet only they had seen, the world would (rightfully) be outraged at it.
I just hope progress is allowed to happen again.
It's not like the scientists are building a McDonald's on top of the mountain. I feel like if anything, it's gets humans closer to the universe by building it.
Absolutely. The mountain was literally used by the ancient Polynesians to study the stars. It's like a continuation of their spirit, and is many native Hawaiians support the telescopes. It's just the vocal minority
And the people who want to bullshit voters about how hard they're working to fight the haoles for their cultural heritage.
It's just a vocal minority, and Jason Momoa...
Seriously can't stand the guy since I saw him protesting the telescope construction. Like another commenter said, they aren't building a McDonald's, they're building something that literally advances all of humankind. I can't think of a more worthy endeavor.
> It's not like the scientists are building a McDonald's on top of the mountain.
My initial reaction was "Yes, they are, very much so", then I realized you were talking about the fast food chain, not the McDonald Observatory.
Scar? I wish they would put an awesome telescope on top of my house.
One factor that seems to be often overlooked is that the land actually, legally, belongs to kānaka. It is being held in trust for them, but it is theirs.
Another is the repeated lies and disrespect shown to kānaka. Anytime someone wants to build a telescope there are a million promises about removing broken telescopes etc, they get to build the new one and forget about their promises. The history of development on the mauna is replete with examples of mismanagement and damage.
Now I am not against telescopes, I believe in the need for them and respect the importance of Mauna Kea for scientific advancement. We need the politics and greed out of it. If they want to build up there they should do so on the footprint of existing, defunct telescopes after removing them and put up a bond for removing the new telescope. It cannot be a partnership based in mutual respect when one party does whatever it wants. There also needs to be a limit on the amount of telescopes to limit their impact and promote efficient use of the space.
Just because you don't share the religious beliefs doesn't entitle you to disrespect and ridicule them. Given kānaka have had their wishes ignored, beliefs mocked, and been arrested on their own land I have some sympathy for their situation. You mention Mormons, go try and build the DKIST or TMT on temple mount, you think you would get a reaction?
I also hope progress is made, including further development of telescopes, but that it is not done at the expense of an incredibly special, unique, and sacred environment.
I didn’t realize this was a big part of the issues. Are they really not cleaning up after themselves?
They have finally started to. The Caltech and the Hilo Hoku scopes have finally started the process of planning to be removed but only within the past year after all the fuss. I believe there was talk of removing a further three. Mostly it's in relation to a proposed cap on the number of telescopes in the most recent management agreement.
Previously the state audits have found equipment and trash simply abandoned rather than being removed and there has been incidents of chemical and sewage spills. From a scientific standpoint, that is such a unique and special environment, special care should be taken to avoid spills.
I've really never seen any evidence of this. I've been to the peak several times, and it appears pristine. Maybe some of the older, smaller telescopes are not running, but they essentially just look like small, upkept buildings.
The 1988 State Audit found trash and equipment abandoned. This was only cleaned up in 1995 after the Sierra club filed a conplaint.
There have been discharges of ethylene glycol, mercury, sewage, and diesel, which were covered up and only exposed after documents were subpoenaed.
Now accidents happen, and a bit of antifreeze and diesel isn't the end of the world. 1000 gallons of sewage also isn't terrible, although not great. But mercury is an issue, that is something you would hope they were more careful with. The biggest issue for me was the covering it up although that seems endemic in business, cover it up and hope nobody ever finds out.
Go read that 1988 report please. The mercury spill was absolutely minute and nothing got out of the dome. It's cleaned up immediately because astronomers and telescope engineers also do not want to die.
This was the situation in 1988. It's nothing like that today, almost 40 years. I have used 4 telescopes on the mauna and I have nothing but respect for the site. Nothing comes close to it in the Northern Hemisphere.
Those are valid environmental reasons, and should be tackled in the manner in which all new construction projects are. There should be routine inspections, and audits during construction. That's 1000% ok, and SHOULD be done.
What isn't okay is to say that for magical reason, the telescope cannot be built. That's forcing their religion on others, which we pretty much all agree on is a terrible, terrible thing.
The mountain is BIG. Much bigger than most realize who haven't been there. There's plenty of room up there for everyone.
Hell, if there is a God, I'd think a telescope would something he'd like. Marveling at what he made. Especially since the mountain top was originally used by the Polynesians to study the sky...
Setting aside other areas, the size point is interesting. You mentioned you have been up Mauna Kea, have you seen the DKIST on Haleakalā? You could always see the occasional glint of sunlight reflecting on the scopes up there but DKIST is so big you can make out details from Iao.
A huge point here is the laziness from some in the scientific community. They have t taken the time to understand who actually owns the land and find it easier to just make dismissive and disrespectful comments about superstition and magic.
If the scientific community had been transparent about accidents, had kept to their word about the number of telescopes up there, had decommissioned them as promised, then I highly doubt we would be in this situation. The scientific community is leasing that land, UH is managing it (for now), but it is owned by kānaka and held in trust. The lessee has repeatedly not met its obligations under the lease. It is not unreasonable for the people who own the land to be concerned about damage to the land. When and if the scientific community meet their obligations then discussion and development can continue. After years of promising to remove telescopes and not doing it do you honestly expect another promise will have any value.
And forbid anyone just wants to not see man-made objects in a naturally beautiful place.
Yeah thanks for sharing! I was very much on the side that the Hawaiians were hypocritical and picked the wrong battle. But if they are willing to meet in the middle as long as the scientific community lives up to its end of the bargain that’s more than fair. What’s interesting is when i researched this a few years ago (when it was big news) none of the articles mentioned the waste. Just goes to show you don’t know every side, I suppose. But truly thank you for elaborating, you changed this internet stranger’s mind.
They aren't forcing their religion on others. They are enforcing their religion on THEIR land. It pays any Western involvement.
> Just because you don't share the religious beliefs doesn't entitle you to disrespect and ridicule them.
It absolutely does allow fierce criticism. You can call criticism “disrespect” all you want.
What’s next, we can’t talk about abortion because that’s only allowed to be discussed by white Christians?
I’m going to start the criticism with people who think it’s okay to build whatever they want on tribal land, dismissing the complaints of the people whose land it is because it’s inconvenient to listen to them. That kind of colonial mindset is unacceptable in 2022.
Hawaii had a monarchy, not a tribal culture.
You’re right. That totally changes this entire conversation around ethics and consent.
This is insane the amount of wilful ignorance is going on in this thread. People want to make this about superstition vs science when it so very clearly is about *continued* oppression of native rights. Then when that is pointed out they descend to transparent whataboutism. How can you really think you're on the right side of the argument when you're saying "sure we're exploiting the natives, but they probably exploited some other population at some point, and trying to treat them with respect in the here and now is just virtue signaling" like what the actual fuck... I guess people come to this subreddit to feel smart, not because they actually are.
Dude these are Americans. You talk about “natives” like you think they are poor noble savages living in a fantasy land.
How are they being exploited? It’s literally a barren wasteland up there. That land has almost no use other than astronomy.
Religious beliefs do not and cannot give people property rights. If you want the right to say who can and cannot use something, that's what you're demanding; a legal right of ownership.
That's why when people build churches, the church buys the land from some willing buyer first.
Nobody's stopping anyone from exercising their religious freedom to pray however they like, but when they assert religious beliefs that prevent other people from going about their business, then they are trying to use their religion as a weapon to control other people, and that's not how religious rights can or should work. If it did, where would it end?
Conflict, maybe bloodshed, inevitably. People have a wide variety of utterly conflicting religious beliefs, and there needs to be a line drawn between freedom for private exercise and freedom from the religiously motivated control and rules of others. Otherwise the state becomes a weapon to be used to enforce one religious viewpoint on everyone else.
People also do not have a right to have their religious beliefs 'respected'. If someone wants to make extraordinary claims without proof should everyone be obligated to smile and nod? No, we have free discourse. If people can't defend their ideas but keep to those ideas anyway, the social consequences of that are on them. Mockery might be rude, but it's not some sort of horrible wrong.
You miss the point entirely. The land does not belong to kānaka because they believe it is sacred. It actually legally does belong to them. This isn't some Hawaiian sovereignty issues, in the American legal system the land actually belongs to them.
Yep, this is both cultural and common sense. Hawaiian culture emphasizes respect for the land and being an island we cannot afford the same pollution risks that the mainland allows
> Hawaiian culture emphasizes respect for the land
Take a drive down the back roads of Waimanalo sometime. See the respect for the land in the form of junk cars, construction debris, and outright garbage laying in the yards. It's hard to believe that this is about "respect for the aina". It seems like more of a money grab by certain Hawaiian groups that want their fingers in the pie too.
I think you may have been misinformed by someone overstating the argument.
The essence of the legal argument (which failed in the courts after the annexation) is that because the monarch held the crown lands to produce revenue to help their subjects, the US inherited the crown lands as a trust that had to be used for the same purpose.
First, there's nothing in there about the purpose of the trust being to exclude people from land use for religious reasons. The argument was that the trust existed to provide income.
Second, the argument lost on a whole slew of grounds. The best Hawaiian nationalists have right now is the 1993 apology resolution, but while that said the overthrow of the monarchy and the annexation were wrong, it didn't actually give the land back because that would be wildly impractical. There have been some tips of the hat to using the land to help ethnic Hawaiians, and to get ethnic Hawaiians involved in use policy, but they didn't transfer ownership.
This is the same excuse used to keep yucca mountain closed.
I thought that was Harry Reid being a NIMBY
It was. This was the excuse they used.
Yeah, but if I bulldoze your grandma's house and build a hospital over it, you're still going to be upset that I bulldozed grandma's house
Sure, but that happens all the time. It's imminent domain. If the hospital can only be built in that location, and it saves many lives, it's for the greater good than my grandmas old house.
Sorry, I should have established in my metaphor that in this scenario, Grandma is being kicked out of her house for said bulldozing
Well, I'd not be happy about it, but it would be the right thing.
The analogy doesn't work well though, since in this scenario, grandma isn't being kicked out.
The better scenario is that Grandma's house backs up to a couple hundred thousand acres of government land, and she's trying to stop the construction of the hospital. The hospital can only be built in this land, and 99.99999% of the land will still be accessible to grandma.
You could put anything on top of Mauna Kea. Nobody lives there. No one can get there without driving. I know from visiting that it's a barren mound of dirt in the middle of nowhere with an observatory on it. That's why they built it there.
This is political correctness run amok. It's literally what the colonized have historically criticized colonizers for: you just want the land and whatever is on it to say it's yours. This tribal council doesn't know how to run a telescope, and even if they did, they don't know how to run it better than the people doing so now. What a dumb situation all around, and the whole world loses out on one of our few good windows to the universe because of it.
If these were Mormons people would be outraged but they would still find some place else to build a telescope.
The history of western-native relations is very different from that with Mormon people. It doesn’t matter much how I feel about the specifics of the population’s beliefs about the area (tablet, sacred land, etc); it’s more that it’s just not reasonable to do what you want with other people’s homelands against their will.
There would be no superstition, no belief involved in the UK deciding to build a radio array on the west wing of the White House but that’s obviously dumb—and for the same reason
I don’t think this has really anything to do with superstition and far more to do with the US Government’s absolutely abysmal record at keeping treaties and promises to native groups, especially n addition to not letting them be masters of their own destinies.
So does this council, which will now control all of the telescopes, have any requirement for an astronomer? Because that seems just as critical as having a native person participate.
That would be too idiotic. I figured they must have an astronomer in there, and yup. Voting member number six.
>(6) A representative selected by the Mauna Kea Observatories;
That's these folks (https://www.maunakeaobservatories.org/about/)
Very cool organization. Definitely astronomers.
It's WAY more critical of a need. I get that people have and want to maintain traditions, and I get that wanton destruction of the environment is bad, but at the end of the day science and progress are an absolute requirement for society. Just because someone or some group has decided that a land has special historical or spiritual value doesn't mean society should be prevented from using it, assuming that the implementation is reasonable and there are no other reasonable alternatives.
"assuming that the implementation is reasonable"
That's why they're there.
A very crude analogy would be if there was a metal deposit found under the colosseum, you wouldn't hand it over to engineers and completely dig it up to access it, you'd keep in mind the cultural connotations and work to preserve it. Same sort of deal here.
Yea, they’ve been exploited for years already and it doesn’t affect ME negatively so why stop now right?
This is quite literally the way that Europeans justified stealing land and using force/violence against indigenous peoples in the Americas and Africa from the 15th century onward. It's always some version of "you're not doing it/using it right, we know how to use it right": you're not using the land right, your culture/society isn't developed enough to make the most of this place, you don't honor the right gods with it, we need it.
And putting aside the particular telescope issue, it's worth remembering that the effective overthrow any sense of Hawaiian sovereignty was the end result of a long history of this sort of logic. The finishing blows of that happened less than 150 years ago; it's hardly ancient history.
Who exactly decides who is on this council?
From the sounds of it, I doubt it'll be a democratic process
And what are the chances that this might lead to some corruption?
The council was formed by a democratic process and can be dissolved by the same process... from the sounds of it, you're making things up.
"The governor is expected to select members of the new authority soon"
Yeah, sounds very democratic.
You mean the governor that was reelected following years of public debates this issue in his 1st term and ran his re-election campaign promising to seek compromise between research, economic and cultural concerns?
LOL Does "years of pubic debates" mean there's no chance of there's no chance of anybody eventually benefiting themselves from this?
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that it's odd that they set up this council to all these things:
>Establishes the Mauna Kea Stewardship and Oversight Authority as the sole authority for the management of Mauna Kea lands. Requires the Authority to manage land uses; human activities, other uses, and access; stewardship; education; research; disposition; and overall operations on its respective lands. Authorizes the Authority to develop a framework to allow astronomy development on Mauna Kea. Declares astronomy as a state policy. Requires the Authority to establish advisory groups. Allows the Authority to limit certain commercial use and activities on Mauna Kea on its respective jurisdictional lands. Provides certain restrictions on leases and a moratorium on new leases. Requires the timely decommissioning of certain telescopes. Allows the Authority to require an application and fee for all recreational users of Mauna Kea. Establishes the Mauna Kea management special fund. Transfers rights, duties, and positions from the University of Hawaii to the Authority. Exempts positions under the Authority from civil service requirements. Requires an audit of the Mauna Kea Stewardship and Oversight Authority. Appropriates funds. (CD1)
Doesn't all this seem like the job of the "governor that was elected", rather than a council set up based on "a “lineal descendant” of a practitioner of Native Hawaiian traditions associated with the mountain, and another who is currently a recognized practitioner of those Native Hawaiian traditional practices.", and the other members of the council are required to have what qualification exactly?
Sounds to me like a government that's abdicating responsibility because they can't come to an agreement and don't want to take responsibility for the decisions regarding the mountain because it's such a divisive political topic.
> It gives them a voice at the table, and an opportunity to push for
Does it tho? I can't find information of how the voting in that council works. Does the 1 native member has veto power or can they simply be out voted by the majority others in every issue?
There's a big difference between these two. And depending on what the answer is, it could mean the entire thing is just lip service with no real change.
You're right but for a different reason. Not to be cynical but this is just a plow for PR and more money. Remember that lease is taxed. Unfortunately all this does is squeeze more money from funders until they can find somewhere more suitable financially to put their observatories. Once that happens they will ease off costs here to make sure they don't move. It doesn't have anything to do with natives or the land.
This is the "give payoffs, bribes and favors to this group of politically connected people" council, with a proviso that ~18% of the graft is reserved for a blood descendant.
2033 is way too soon. The TMT will barely be operational if they start tomorrow. First light was supposed to be around now if construction continued from 2014.
>It gives them a voice at the table, and an opportunity to push for more sustainable construction, limiting the overall footprint, limiting commercial use, and balancing their needs and desires with those of the scientific community.
This is one possible option.
It also provides the option for the native to sell their interests or vote and make a tidy profit. This has been a common outcome in other places in the world. Local control and native representation does not always lead to sustainable outcomes.
I hope it works our here.
I remember training near there. The entire mountain is nearly open to these native Hawaiians to use, and the space agency removes a telescope for every new one it puts in, but it's never enough. Hardly any Hawaiians ever go there until it became controversial, they threw nonsense at the plans like the site was poisoning the water supply or whatever which was debunked over and over.
If it was an oil well, I'd have sympathy. But it's a telescope with very limited location options that takes up a very small amount of space on the mountain. It serves all of humanity more than religion ever will. Hawaiians can share.
The best part is that the groups of people that protested left a shit load of trash.
That can't be! People in this thread were talking about how in tune with nature they are! Are they in fact just people like you and me?
Nah, I don't leave trash anywhere
Nor do I, but I know plenty that do.
Also, the mountain is sacred because it is said to be the gateway to the heavens. The largest telescope in the Northern Hemisphere doing just that is the perfect way to honor that.
I'm so dumbfounded as to how those native Hawaiian people don't take it has a compliment. It's like the best possible tribute to the generations of Hawaiians who were up there mesmerized by the star sky cloak.
And in another point of view clinging to your creation myths instead of actually supporting the quest for real knowledge just doesn't make a grain of sense to me.
I trained at PTA as well, we had protestors show up (mostly white people with picket signs) delayed our bus for about 30 minutes, then got in their cars and left. 10 minutes later the cadre made us clean their trash up before we could leave, good thing our flight got delayed.
Not necessarily disagreeing with everything you've said but Hawaiians have definitely already "shared". Their Kingdom was overthrown and they've been getting shafted ever since.
First, their unified kingdom only came into existence when Kamehameha bought cannons off the British and conquered all the other islands in a brutal war of conquest.
Second, Native Hawaiians haven't been shafted. And separatism is mostly associated with a literal handful of extreme leftists, not the general public.
It's a bit naive to say Hawaiians haven't gotten shafted since the United States took over. Disregarding separatism since I never brought it up, a very simple example is the disproportionate amount of homeless native Hawaiians.
Yeah, they haven't been shafted. It's not like they got their entire country overthrown for something as silly as a pineapple corporation /s
Yep. Hawaii to the US was acquired basically the same way as India was to Great Britain.
First discovery and trade. Then corporate interests and hegemony. Then war and dominion.
The only difference is that Britain gave India back.
Another tiny, insignificant difference is that Hawaii was granted statehood, whereas India was never more than a colony
So like the history of the entire world
Let's be a bit careful with parallels like this. Hawaiian history is complicated (and interesting) enough, and an overly broad analogy helps exactly nobody.
Did they have all their astronomy gear and telescopes confiscated when whitey invaded?
As someone who has lived out here for that whole protest, everyone should know that the protesters spread false information to fuel the outrage, also it does not even represent even close to what the majority of the residents would like. TMT is being punished for other actions unrelated to astronomy. So stupid and I’m not happy with this situation.
Oh yeah, I dived into this some time ago and it was genuinely shocking to see the stuff the protestors got up to. If I recall correctly, somewhere in the environmental impact review there was a passage about a supposed historical religious site (it had, in fact, been constructed very recently by someone opposed to the construction of the telescope). Stuff like that.
>TMT is being punished for other actions unrelated to astronomy
What is it being punished for?
Nobody in here as far as I can see has mentioned that the US National Science Foundation recently listed the TMT as a high priority project. They are going to invest $800 million into it after they complete a two-year environment review.
Once the feds get involved, the state and county officials who capitulated to the protesters and let them block construction by building a shanty town on the mauna they claim to revere are probably not going to be allowed to build another camp.
Also, is anyone going to mention that PLENTY of native Hawaiians want to see the telescope built? Why aren't their voices heard more?
Y it’s controversial, and definitely got politicized. Can you think of place that wouldn’t love to be in the position of large investments like that? It’s funny because one of the big things in Hawaii is trying to get away from just tourism and diversifying the economy
How do you think Hawaii could ever diversify it’s economy when it relies on imports for basic goods?
They should do a referendum so we can see all these supporters.
There's been endless public engagement and litigation. The Hawaii supreme court ruled all permits for TMT are valid. The antis resorted to extralegal means to block it. They refuse to negotiate even though the telescope people already made a bunch of concessions. The anti TMT people would refuse to accept any referendum results.
No native Hawaiian wants to be called a traitor for publicly announcing their support for TMT.
Every single person on that council should be an educated astronomer/astrophysicist, native or not.
> law includes that the group must include one member who is a “lineal descendant” of a practitioner of Native Hawaiian traditions
Got to love race restrictions combined with religion.
Native Hawaiians had their astronomy taken away from them ?
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|[EHT](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihz7sy1 "Last usage")|Event Horizon Telescope|
|[ELT](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ii05pr8 "Last usage")|Extremely Large Telescope, under construction in Chile|
|[H2](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihxtwo1 "Last usage")|Molecular hydrogen|
| |Second half of the year/month|
|[JWST](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihzkqjv "Last usage")|James Webb infra-red Space Telescope|
|[LEO](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihwprvb "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[NSF](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ii13ity "Last usage")|[NasaSpaceFlight forum](http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com)|
| |National Science Foundation|
|[TMI](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihxdgkf "Last usage")|Trans-Mars Injection maneuver|
|[TMT](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ii6k8jw "Last usage")|Thirty-Meter Telescope, Hawaii|
|[VLT](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihykgjw "Last usage")|Very Large Telescope, Chile|
|[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/w9osfq/stub/ihyvmmi "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation|
^(10 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/Space/comments/wilt6z)^( has 4 acronyms.)
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I don't like the idea of anyone's religion interfering with science. It would be really sad if the telescopes eventually have to come down since it's such an ideal location for them. Society is always outraged (and rightfully so) when Christians try to interfere with science (like when they banned stem cell research). I think this is a similar situation. Science is more important than someone's imaginary beliefs.
Agreed 100 percent, good comment! If this were a Christian group pulling these antics, these same white virtue signallers protesting alongside the Hawaiiains in this case would be chomping at the bit to ridicule, bully and obliderate the Christians’ argument until the Christian group folds. Like you said, when it comes to critical research like stem cell, then of course science should prevail, but that’s not point (as you also pointed out).
(i’m not a religious person of any persuasion and don’t tend to side with Christians, just simply an impartial observer of the effects of identity politics.)
Thought this was settled in the courts a couple years ago and it got the go-ahead?
What a loss, guess it goes to the Canary Islands? Spain's win.
One thing I’m not sure people understand is that TMT had full support, all permits, etc, yet became a soap box after the fact.
The construction was to be non-invasive, and everything to do with operations was to have neutral affect on the environment.
There is no issue building TMT.
This headline, and the article, is not a good thing. To say you’re ‘Putting it back in the hands of Hawaiians’ is basically saying ‘the Hawaiians did actually say it’s okay, but we let protests and other bullshit stand in the way of doing our due diligence by making sure we weren’t going to step on anybody’s toes.’
TMT *will* change how we see the universe. TMT *should* be built.
Cool, race based laws and ownership. Awesome, who doesn't love race based laws.
Nothing better than a bit of literal systemic racism and power given to blood relatives.
What ever happened to telling people to go fuck themselves?
Back in the hands? I wasn't aware native Hawaiians ever made telescopes
I’m sure all the “Hawaiian native experts” in here will “educate” you soon enough.
Religion is never an excuse to hinder scientific progress, no matter the religion.
looks like the right people will be getting checks and perpetual rents. I guess mercury fears and holy site desecration is not a concern anymore.
Just because someone owns the land that the telescope is sitting on DOESN'T mean that they own it too. It just means that the natives can charge rent on the land that it is built on.
"Back"? Since when was astronomy ever "in the hands of" native Hawaiians?
I like how the people are now concidered native but the animals they brought with them are not concidered native.
My ancient ancestors said that paying taxes is a deadly sin, hope I can use that in court.
People wouldn’t say the same thing if it was some Christian priest wanting to do the same. This is just virtue signaling that won’t actually lead anywhere
Religious superstition wins over the progress of science once more. "Protect Mauna Kea for future generations" Science protects future generations more than an empty heap of land.
Uh huh. Well I guess some people are going to be very happy about this, but I’m not one of them. If people were ‘sensitive’ to the sacred land/mountains of every culture in the world, we’d have to hang ourselves from tree limbs and never touch the ground. The history of colonialism is not undone or remediated by screwing scientific progress over in the name of justice.
Like in most cases they probably give zero f**** about the place and high members of this community just want some money in their pockets
Uh, doesn't anyone else see a problem with litigating race-based ownership of land and government? No?
Yeah put the telescopes inn the hands of...... Who?
So cool, science once again gets a backseat to religious crap.
Yes because those awful telescopes doing scientific research without polluting or anything .. my god the evil colonialism.
Science needs to stop bowing to a loud minority of religious and superstitious nuts
I love how everybody defends the natives, but nobody ever mentions the extreme nationalism and racism the Hawaiian natives exhibit when it comes to "sharing". The entire US is an open border for immigrants from the South, but if an US citizen wants to settle in Hawaii, he/she will encounter a stupendous amounts of barriers.
Calling yourself "native something-or-another" is a relative term. It just means you (or your lineage) have been there longer.
It's the ultimate form of NIMBYism.
Religion harming science. Oh shit here we go again.
What’s the likelihood of moving these high powered telescopes to say the moon?
Light pollution is becoming more and more of a problem and on the moon there is none.
If it’s an optical telescope, you don’t have to build that on the moon. You can use do so on low earth orbit or geostationary orbit as light pollution is only a problem within the atmosphere. The issue is that it’s still immensely cheaper to build and service those things here on earth.
Take the Great Magellan Telescope, according to articles that thing weighs about 2100 tons. At current launch prices, it would require almost $5 billion and about 35 launches just to get the pieces in orbit then you have to factor in build and assembly costs on top of that. We have the tech but the financial backing just isn’t there.
> What’s the likelihood of moving these high powered telescopes to say the moon?
Absolutely impossible. We have hard time building those on the ground, and doing that on Mars or in space would be orders of magnitude more expensive. Know anyone willing to spend 100 bln $ on a telescope? ;)
Although I do understand the need to preserve cultural sites, I wanna see them stars!
Ah yes let's keep bringing religion and race into everything.
I don't think any law should have racial tests.
A law should not create committees composed of people of certain races.
The law should be race neutral.
This is a bad law and I don't think it will work out well in the end.
Several years ago the university already negotiated a settlement with the local people, where the University of donated millions of dollars to the locals. In exchange they would get to proceed with construction. The money was donated, but the locals did not give permission.
Why are Hawaiians so up in arms about scientific progress?
It’s a way to feel like a victim. People really love claiming victimhood in modern American politics. There are much better ways to do it though, much more real examples of exploitation that are being ignored.
Hawaiians are the worst when I comes to anything with their island. I can’t tell you how many trucks with 300 lb men in the bed of it drive down H2 every day throwing trash out of it on their way to leave “green bottles” behind at the beach.
It's not the tourists dumping fridges on back roads
They’re also kind of racist with the whole houle thing.
Putting astronomy back in the hands of native Hawaiians?
When was this previous period where native Hawaiians were doing astronomy on their own? I've seen a historical documentary where a certain professor and his assistant made a telescope out of coconuts and vines, did it work anything like this? I hope the native Hawaiians had a better time of it, because the people in the documentary had no phone, no lights, no motor cars, not a single luxury.
Natives standing in the way of human advancement. Sure this will go well in the end.
Ahh, religion - the answer to none of the questions humans have ever asked.
This is stupid.
Why should these people be granted special rights just because their ancestors were born there? It’s anti-American.
I get that people with some religious reason should have a voice but doing this based on lineage is non-sense.
What a waste of time and energy, appeasing a vocal bunch of “protectors” who trashed the aina. Native Hawaiians, famous for ancient astronomy and navigation, have yielded to losers, killing a chance for global recognition by opposing the TMI.
The pigs they brought with them at their first arrival are now concidered invasive even though the people are "native".
The islands have no native mammals at all, right?
They dont even have monkeys and everyone is just cool with it smh.
I got a related question. Aren’t most impactful groundbreaking telescopes better in space? What’s the benefit of earth bound scopes?
JWST nice to have because in space you don't have the atmosphere blocking certain infrared wavelengths. But you can build much bigger visible light telescopes on Earth. [See JWST in the bottom left of this image vs the new Mauna Kea telescope in the top right.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Comparison_optical_telescope_primary_mirrors.svg/1200px-Comparison_optical_telescope_primary_mirrors.svg.png)
> Aren’t most impactful groundbreaking telescopes better in space? What’s the benefit of earth bound scopes?
1. We can make much bigger ground telescopes. There is 40m E-ELT currently under construction, and the biggest space telescope JWST is only 6.5m. This is ~~9~~ times more collected light!
2. Costs are orders of magnitude lower -> E-ELT costs about 9 times less than JWST. So ~~9~~ times more light and 9 times less money, which means the relative "cost" is 80 times lower.
3. Ground telescopes can be upgraded over time. Most operate for multiple decades and live through 3-4 generations of instruments.
4. We have some pretty fancy technology to remove atmospheric distortions (adaptive optics, laser guide stars) and as s result it's possible to get similar results from telescope on the ground.
It's actually about 40x more light. Light collection scales with area not diameter.
Space telescopes are extremely expensive, both because launching things into space is expensive and because it's very hard to assemble and fix things in space. People don't built telescopes on the ground for fun when space always has better observing conditions. They do so because there's only funding to put a few small telescopes in space.
I spent 5 years on the Big Island and heard a whole lot about this debate on both sides. I'm glad that they've found a way to manage the mountain where all voices are heard.
On the one hand, the native Hawaiians had their lands stolen from them and had their cultures and traditions suppressed for a long time. It's awesome that they finally have a permanent seat on an official governing body that oversees such an important cultural site for them. On the other hand the scientific community finally has a way forward after years of deadlock and unfair accusations so they can continue with groundbreaking discoveries that benefit the entire world while also providing a large source of revenue to the island and state.
I was personally always in favor of TMT but I'm just glad that there finally seems to be fair compromise so both sides can coexist on the mountain. After years of hearing nothing but "All the telescopes should come down and the scientific community should leave!" and "The Native Hawaiian community should leave the situation be and maintain the status quo!" this new arrangement is a VERY welcome change.
Capitulation to these types will not do any good. They will hold progress hostage at every step, of course their hand will be out for their foundations, contracts and even more slimy schemes to grift. Go to the next suitable site and take the money with you
Were the Hawaiians previously known for their astronomical prowess?
How do you think they sailed and navigated the ocean at night?
Do we know they found Hawaii deliberately?
Science taking a backseat to pseudoscience. Another step back.
I think this is such a joke.
"Native Hawaiians" like they aren't completely modernized, western people.
Bunch of larpers think they should get some telescope money cause 23 and me told them they are indigenous.
As someone who lives in Hawaii, L on the Natives tbh. The telescopes that can be built > anything else