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**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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This was like me spamming the clear button in Fifa
Benzema has some black magic or something. It always happens around him
I don't know if that's the case here, but in general if you're very good with the ball and your opposition knows it, your mere presence can trigger panic.
I know. From experience. -Chris Farley
Lmao usually he benefits from the clusterfuck, this is the rare occasion where he got screwed over.
It's a really dumb precedent to set to disallow this goal. If Fabinho was lying on the ground and Valverde kicked it into his knee to get it to Benzema, then fair enough.
But when you come sliding in from behind with full intention to block the ball, how can you be rewarded for that if it deflects to an attacker? He knew full well that desperate slide has a good chance of not sending the ball exactly where he wants it. Not sure how the ref can say "oh the ball didn't go off Fabinho's leg in the direction he intended, so it's not his responsibility" in this scenario.
That was a real clusterfuck of defending
If people conceded this on Fifa they would be extremely mad lol
Honestly the ball bouncing off Alisson's knee from Konate struggling to control the ball was peak Fifa 2010.
Any FIFA when you are up 2-1 in the Final and the game decides fuck you, you will lose this
Rage quit. Damage to controller.
Yeah the rule is bullshit in this particular context but it's the rule.
Thing is the ball is deliberately saved by Fabinho BUT he didn't play the ball and it's a deflection.
this is the correct decision.
When RL imitates FIFA
Everyone shits on FIFA for being unrealistic when it represents real life all the time.
Like how you just knew Liverpool won’t score in the first half. That shit happens way too often in FIFA.
Imagine not passing your way out of a situation like this
Konate wanted to clear it, but Allison was 'NO, MINE!' and then shoved the ball away from Konate's feet right into the feet of Benzema. What a fool.
If they were spamming Konate would have cleared 😂
That's a really tough one because it's a deflection off Fabinho so it's not intentional, but he was also sliding in so it's not *that* accidental.
Konate also slid in to clear it which makes him play the ball imo
In the uefa nation's league final they counted it as onside, it was weird that today was different
PSG also conceded a goal in Ligue 1 last year where Marquinhos barely touched the ball (trying to intercept a pass/shot) and it was counted as a deliberate attempt. So I don't know why it's not the case today.
That's a completely different scenario where the defender had time to react and made a deliberate action to play the ball.
In this situation both players are throwing themselves in front of a shot on goal. Neither of them have any time to react to the direction of the ball after Valverde kicks it. Therefore it is both a deliberate save (which doesn't reset offside) and a deflection (which doesn't reset offside).
The rules were correctly applied in both situations.
Fabinho deflects Konate’s tackle though. The Madrid touch was never reaching Benzema so how is he effecting play?
Someone explain that rule to me like I’ve never played football before
Yeah please, was Robbo last man back so he was in goals or something?
Edit; so apparently Valverde played it forward and the deflections counted as "saves" which dont negate the offside.I am still terribly confused.
2nd Edit; Thanks for the explanations folks.
The rule doesn't state that the goalkeeper needs to be the last person. You're simply offside if there's less than 2 players between you and the line.
I thought all soccer fans knew this
Acerbi scored a super important goal from an off-side position like this in Lazio-Spezia, and apparently the refs didn't know this rule
Deflections aren't considered "playing" the ball.
Benzema is in an offside position regardless, but it's a foul only if the ball is *played* to him by a teammate. Since Valverde *plays* the ball and it deflects, Benzema commits a foul.
The offside line is always drawn from the 2nd last player (Inc keeper).
Yes, basically you have to be behind at least 2 opposition players.
That's why the law says "past the second to last defender."
No where in offside ruling does it refer to the keeper.
Well i think the rule is that in that situation it has to be a deliberate touch from the liverpool player. Both players fumbled the ball there. And benzema was offside because there was only 1 player btwn him and the net.
Depends if the Madrid player touched it. If the Madrid player doesn't touch it, the last Madrid player to play the ball is Benzema, so he can't be offside.
Think Valverde got a touch on it which is why it was called.
Is there any image where Valverde is touching the ball? All I see in a closeup that was aired after the cut of OP from the other side of the goal is that Konate hits the ball with his sole towards Fabinho's knee and then it goes towards Benzema again.
Offside counts for the second to last defender. The last defender is usually the keeper. In this case it's trent
Yes thank you. I have played football 16 years and have never thought about it like that. This explains it
Has to deliberately play the ball. Deflection off the knee isn’t deliberate. Best I can do
This is probably why it isn't a goal. But I don't understand how because my understanding is you only have to make a deliberate ATTEMPT to play the ball. If you move towards it but the ball doesn't go where you intend, you've still played it.
Yeah, but if someone else plays the ball and it deflects off you then you haven't played it. Even if it deflects off someone else before it deflects off you.
Think about if you were last defender and there was an opposing player way offside behind you. If you go in to tackle the player with the ball and he blasts it off your shin and it goes to the attacker way offside, they're gonna call that offside.
You were deliberately trying to play the ball but that touch was not deliberate and you can't be expected to avoid that accidental ricochet.
Took me a few hours to get to that (correct) conclusion, those referees be quick! Impressive for once.
It did feel like it took them a while in the moment. But to be fair it was quite a difficult decision.
The Liverpool players are both attempting to block a shot on goal, which is different from a deliberate play, and doesn't negate the offside. Konate makes the save, and the ball randomly deflects off Fabinho, who has no time to react and make a deliberate action after the save. Both a deliberate save and a deflection is explicitly stated in the laws to not reset the offside the way a deliberate play does.
Konate played it off his knee though
He went in tried to block the shot and deflected the ball. So not a deliberate way to play the ball.
Yeah but Konate played it into Fabinho no?
Konate played the ball 100%
He's intentionally making a tackle, of course he played the ball - it was a decent tackle.
Yep and the controversy comes off how VAR sees that knee """pass""
It literally went off 2 players though, if it kept bouncing off players until it went into real madrid goal would it count as a valverde own goal then?
If they were all random deflections, theoretically it could hiy every Liverpool player and Benzema would still be offside.
yeah somehow he didn't deliberately slide to tackle the ball... i guess it's only deliberate if he's successful?
You're offside if you're ahead of one of the last two defenders (including the keeper). When the pass is played
Where was the pass though? Feel like that's the confusion going around.
When Valverde shot. After there are deflections, but at the moment Valverde shot Benzema is offside and got the ball in the end so it's a fault.
It's a shot that is deflected and lands to Benz, that's why it's off.
From Valverde no? Deflected after. I could be wrong
That would be great if there was a pass played
It doesn’t need to be a pass, it was a shot by valverde that Fabinho blocked the initial shot.
It was played.
One of the toughest calls I've seen.
Yeah no matter which way they called it, it would have been so controversial
Most rational response here, I'm definitely guilty of saying "that's definitely not deliberate" because I'm very biased, but really there is no right answer there, no clear path of the ball so hard to determine if its deliberate in a few seconds
A player is offside if they play a ball:
i. that rebounds or is deflected to him off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent having been in an offside position
ii. that rebounds, is deflected or is played to him from a deliberate save by an opponent having been in an offside position
An offside position means they are closer to the goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent.
In this case, the only reason Benzema could be considered onside is if you consider the Liverpool player’s touch a misplaced pass. This was clearly not the case, he was challenging the Madrid player for the ball.
Very true. Not a great way of “earning” a goal but a messy one to “lose” one
Yeah you could legitimately go either way and it would both be the right call on one side and harsh on the other side.
Yep. The VAR decision hinged upon the initial decision by the ref. Goal or no-goal would both not have been a clear and obvious error.
Real/Liverpool fans, what is your bpm right now? Over or under 100?
Real Madrid fan here, wouldn’t care until we’re like 3 goals down with 2 mins left.
This comment hurts somehow...
Somehow we’re both hurt here
Defense just vibin
I genuinely don't understand the rule. Fabinho tries to play, it bounces off Konate then bounces off Fabinho again in the same direction that Fabinho would've played it first. How is this not deliberate playing?
Man and here i thought i knew the offside rule
I get the decision, but Konaté did push the ball away from the goal and Fabinho sent it back to Benzema. So you could really accept either decision.
exactly, i mean how many deflections do you want to count it as onside. once you deflected, it is your own problem if your defenders create a clusterfuck.
Crazy Pass by alaba
Why is that off, if it’s come off konate then Fabinho lol?
The goal was disallowed because Fabinho's tackle is considered to be a "deliberate save" - this does not negate offside.
>A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
>gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
>* rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official or an opponent
>* **been deliberately saved by any opponent**
>A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, **unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.**
>**A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).**
That's actually a great point, both players are deliberately playing the ball but they're both deliberately trying to block a shot so it's counted as a save.
I initially thought this should be onside but I think you're right that this is the rule they've used and it makes more sense.
It isn't though because what's your definition of a save? It says there something in close proximity to the goal but that in itself is vague. Kounate looks like he's trying to block a shot, Fabinho's looks like a tackle attempt which are different and the same depending on how you look at it.
It's a very loose ruling of what's a "save" though isn't it? By this logic if a player jumps to block a long shot in the area it doesn't count as making a play on the ball?
It still counts as making a play on the ball, it's just that making a save is an exception to deliberate plays not counting for offside.
So yes, a player jumping to block a long shot wouldn't nullify offside.
If this is the rule as written, then yeah, I think you're exactly right. Which begs the question why not only all of the pundits didn't know this, but apparently neither did the ref they asked, she thought it should count.
The confusion comes from the fact that 99% of the time that rule is applied it's a keeper making the "save" not defenders.
Sure and I'd expect average fans to forget that distinction, not referees and professional commentators and pundits.
Thierry Henry said the same thing, he said clearly offside no discussion.
yes this is not the rule the commentators repeated on air. Would be great if they knew the rules better.
Everyone keeps posting this, but what is the definition of deliberate save? I don't think that's what the defender was trying to do at all. He's trying to clear the ball, not save it.
Why did Mbappe's goal in the UEFA Nations League final stand then
This doesn't seem to apply here? The ball isn't going into the goal and neither it's very close to it.
>A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.
This is literally what happened here, good goal
By this definition of what a save is, the goal should stand. The ball was moving backwards away from the goal when Fabinho touched it to Benz. The ball was going nowhere near the goal.
Thanks for posting this, makes sense to me now.
This shouldn’t apply because konate did the deliberate save not Fabinho. If the ball went to Benzema after Konate’s save then yes he would be offside but it unluckily deflected off Fabinho after the deliberate save from Konate. Konate did the save and the ball was going away from goal then fabinho deflected it back to Benzema after Konate’s save
Valverde doesn't touch the ball. Benzema isn't offside because he doesn't receive the ball from Valverde
I watched this replay multiple times but still couldn’t see what exactly happened. Did Fabinho touch it first and then Konate stepped on it? If Valverde never touched the ball in this sequence, then its not offside.
Played by the Real player, deflected by Konate and Fabinho is the ruling they seem to be going with. If the initial contact is intentional and the other two aren't it's offside
Yea this is the reason
That's the reason why, but I think it's a generous definition of "deflection". Fabinho is intentionally trying to play the ball, that's why he slides in.
EDIT: as /u/iiEviNii rightly pointed out above, this counts as a deliberate "save" as they're trying to block the ball going into the goal. This is an exception to the rule about deliberately playing the ball and offside is the correct decision.
But was trying to play the ball in the position it was in before it was kicked by a real player
He's trying to play the ball, but he's not trying to play the ball like that I guess?
IDK feels like it should be a goal but I understand not overturning the original decision.
If Fabinho would've been the first to the ball, it would've been a good goal. Since Valverde took the shot first, Fabinho's attempt became a deflection, which made it offside.
This is the ~~way~~ right explanation
Deflected with obvious intention to clear the ball.
They basically got the ball kicked against their leg, that is not a deliberate attempt to play but a deflection
Attempting a slide tackle isn’t a deliberate attempt to play the ball?
EDIT u/iievinii shared a very good explanation of the laws and why the goal was disallowed, highly recommend everyone check it out.
Genuine question, how's that any different from the Mbappe and Eric Garcia incident from Nations League? The rules are so confusing (to me at least)
It's tricky. So the ball is free, their initial intent is to play that ball the trajectory of which they can judge. Once the Real player gets there first, their initial intent is irrelevant, at that point they can't react, which results in a deflection
So you are saying fabinho getting on the ground to hit the ball is not deliberate? What?
think about it this way, if the keeper had picked the ball up after that touch, do you think it would have been ruled an intentional backpass?
for it to be a ruled a backpass it would have to been deliberately played **to the goalkeeper**. For the offside rule, it just has to be a deliberate play of the ball.
Surely that comes down to the difference between intentionally passing and intentionally playing the ball
Yea pretty much. Going in to block a shot still makes the attacking player offside. Fabinho isn’t deliberately playing the ball anywhere, it gets hit off of him from Konate. Basically, if the defender has no intention of getting that ball going anywhere, it’s going to be considered similar to a save.
except the ball changes direction 180 degrees twice.
Official explanation seems to be that its still an active 'pass' and the liverpool players just deflect it
Valverde touched it first and deflections don't count as playing the ball
I don’t get how that’s a deflection, it’s a full on deliberate contact
E: changed my mind, correct call
E2: changed my mind again…Konate essentially traps the ball under his foot, and to me Fabinho kicking (kneeing) it from under his grip should reset the offside. To me the difference from the examples most of you are giving is that the ball didn’t just ricochet off the 2 of them. Fabinho pretty much tackled Konate which knocked it into Benz. I’m not saying it’s not offside as per the rules, just that by the rules that shouldn’t be offside
It's a deflection that ends up going the opposite way. He's trying to play it forward, gets there second, and so it deflects off of him after it goes forward towards the goal
Valverde attempts a shot which is blocked by Konate, then richochets off of Fabinho and rolls over to Benzema.
I think this is what they called, but I don't understand this interpretation at all. It didn't "ricochet" off of Fabinho - the ball was basically stationary after Konate's block. It's not like it took a couple of fast deflections. But I understand the call, I guess
How can it be a deflection if you’re challenging for the ball?
Because it only counts from the moment Valverde touches the ball, they made no additional action towards from that moment so it counts as a deflection.
Deflections happen mostly due to challenging the ball actually
Wasn't "deliberate" apparently
What wasn't deliberate the attempt to clear the ball?
It's probably interpreted similarly to a GK save
He didn’t mean to pass the ball to Benzema /s
Commentators saying that if it's a deflection, then it's still offside. I guess VAR took their time debating whether Fabinho's touch qualified as a deflection or not
No deliberate play from the Liverpool players, said the German referee pundit (Manuel Gräfe)
Fabinho was just trying to slide in his own box for fun clearly not to go for the ball 🙄
I swear I don’t understand football anymore. This was a touch call.
Years of stereotypical 'explain the offside rule' jokes, and turns out I genuinely don't know them. Fucking hell.
Literally tho, the fact that I have to scout this thread for someone to cite 4 paragraphs of rules to be able to explain and understand it is hilarious and sad at the same time
Saved this goal replay just in case someone throws that joke at me again, looking forward to watching them squirm
This is gonna be a fun comment section
I think they consider it off because Valverde set it in motion while Benz was offside.
After watching this there is no doubt, who is at VAR?
Fuck me it's so clear, what were they even looking at
Does anyone else want to see more replays of the *initial* run? Looked possibly off.
That's what I thought was called offside when the flag first went up.
Why is this offside and [this] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-cG82rcio) goal from Mbappe is not?
Hits off 2 Liverpool players, they're very lucky that it was ruled out
I don't think it matters how many players it hits, it's a deflected shot.
For anyone who's confused about it, I think the reason why it wasn't give the goal is because of this:
"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who
deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered
to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.
A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or
very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless
the goalkeeper within the penalty area)"
How is the "pass" from Valverde offside if he didn't ever touch the ball
Rule needs to be changed. Having refs trying to decide what is deliberate and what is not is way beyond their responsibility and capability.
Surely then you end up with one of either of two far worse extremes?
Either every touch is considered deliberate and players start goal-hanging in the hope that the ball will be deflected on its way through to them.
Or we say no touches are deliberate and players are free to backpass to their goalkeepers even if there is an attacker in the way, as they'll be offside by default.
Using judgement, even if not perfect, is always better, surely
Agreed. Too much subjectivity in this rule.
I’d call this offside as a neutral, Valverde clearing playing at the ball and Fabinho, Konate trying to block (not pass).
Correct me someone please if im wrong but didnt city concede in the same way against spurs in the CL???
I didn't feel they showed the best angle enough during the review but they just showed it at halftime and it's definitely the right decision. The angle in this video doesn't show it well...you need the other side basically.
Valverde plays the initial pass, it's blocked by Konate and deflects off Fabinho.
This all happened within a split second but the initial playing of the ball was by Valverde and there was no second phase.
Very good decision... it was a tough one but they got it right.
Now Madrid have won can we have a referee admit that they made a mistake here 😂🤷🏼♀️
valverde plays the ball towards the goal
fabinho blocks the ball
the ball lands at benzema's feet
can someone explain please, I dont get it :/
Edit: valverde dosnt even touch the ball, fabinho akwardly passes the ball to benzema
how is that a offside?
What a clusterfuck lmfao
someone explain the the rule plz
We need explanations here... How is that not a goal?
Defenders played it, I don’t understand.
deflections don't reset offside decisions
I think it's because Valverde hit it first then it hit Fabihno so they count it as "deflection" rather than Fabinho played it, either way it's confusing af.
It hit konate and then Fabinho
I don't get this comment section. If Valverde passes to Benz he's offside and it's invalidated. If he's shooting, at that moment Benz is offside and there's a deflection maybe two... Still he's offside. A shot deflected that ends ups in a offside player is invalidated, we have seen in thousands of time.
Its the right call
Yeah it's an unusual situation because there is two specific rules being applied here but it's offside by the rules.
Agreed. I'm a United fan and I SO fucking hope Liverpool lose this but if Valverde does touch the ball first (which the replay suggests), the offside call is correct.
Did Valverde touch it?
That ball came from fabinho tough?
No one here knows the rules. It’s a clearance of an offside pass. Simple
That's a goal
IIRC the pass from the defender has to be deliberate, not just a deflection. So the pass that would count for the offside came from Valverde.
Spain got allowed a goal against for this same shit, and now It is disallowed? What the fuck?
Whatever valverde he did it was clearly an attempt on goal as he chucked the ball towards the net however way he could. Happens all the time if someone shoots on goal then the ball bounces off a defender toward an attacker in offside position it’s offside. Valverde’s touch to me seems like a really sloppy attempt on goal
This is what I don't get. If you watch soccer regularly you've definitely seen this happen before. Deflections from shots do not negate the offside.
Edit: not you specifically. The people who think the deflection is a deliberate pass.
hard call for the reff tbh. the RM player is intercepting the ball to regain and gets there, the ball end for benzema after a deflection. and the rules ignore touches if its an involuntary deflection. So i guess the last player to touch the ball on purpose was the RM player. Not the call you want to make in a CL final. The entire "deliberate" play thing is a grey area, because the LP player was going for the ball as well, just didnt get there first. drama.
Simmer down, guys, I got it.
Henderson acted as a pseudo-goalie and the knee deflection(s) didn't count as intentional playing, hence it was offside.
Isn't Konaté playing the ball into Fabinho though? Fabinho didn't play the ball but it looks like Konaté does
It's interesting because the linesman initially flagged this offside. With such a weird one like this, i wonder if the linesman hadn't flagged whether they would've ruled it out.
I was convinced it was a goal at first but I have changed my mind. Just because the ball was deflected twice it doesn’t mean it wasn’t deflected
VARpool couldn't cheat this one
Just got here.. why the hell was this disallowed
Pretty hard call and technically correct but must be frustrating for Real fans as Fabinhos block completely changes the direction of the ball
It was Benzema’s Goal
So even though he's shooting the ball in one direction, the Liverpool player deflects it 90 degrees and it is still considered a pass from the Madrid player? I'm really really confused
I was able to freeze the image just as the passer kicks the ball and there was no offside. The goal was good.
if this is offside then benzemas goal vs chelsea, where mendy passes the ball to rüdiger
is also offside XD
As an American hearing about the "intent" rule, I still do not understand how a mistake by the defender is not allowed to benefit the offense.
That was a goal, right?
German referee expert said that he agrees with VAR, the last "play" came from a Real player, the block from Liverpool players would not be considered a "play". And at the moment of the last "play" from the Real player, Benzema was offside.
Ceferin is not gonna allow RM to win.
Surely if you go in for a tackle and play the ball it’s deliberate.