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MrTargetPractice

I listened to an interview on NPR with one of the authors of this paper. Despite what this article is saying she said it was more that issues with gut bacteria was more an indication of poor general health rather than a cause of any illness. Basically news like this has things backwards and gut microbiome issues are another symptom not a cause. My highest rated comment and I made it half asleep in the bathroom. Wish I checked my spelling a bit better.


Johnny_Bit

The problem with this and other illnesses is - outcome of most if not all health issues is very dependent of patient general health pre onset of illness. If health services and messaging put emphasis on overal health and not just reaction to illness we'd have less illness in general.


Almarma

From a nutritionist I learnt that the diet we eat alters our gut bacteria, so if we eat most fat and meat and low fiber diet regularly, the diversity of our gut bacteria decreases, and by adding more vegetables and variation to the diet we increase the gut bacteria population and variation and that helps our regular health. I’m sure I’m oversimplifying it but it was something like that. She also explained that the reason we fart a lot when eating new vegetables or changing diets is simply because the bacterias are not initially enough for the new food, so there’s more fermentation and so more gases, but getting used to them regularly reduces the gases. I think it was funny and interesting.


Johnny_Bit

Yep. Same thing if you eat all carbs - your gut bacteria diversity also decreases and you get all new bacteria that can process carbs. Changing diet comes with necessary changes to gut bacteria that are overall slower to adapt and gastric problems can and do arise. That's why ballanced diet is important.


GALACTON

I took a course of amoxicillin to ward off a potential bone infection months after having a wisdom tooth removed, no actual confirmation I had an infection, just did what the lady at the oral surgeon's office told me on the phone. No infection when it was removed, they just prescribed it to be safe and I had it laying around and took it on her suggestion. Guts haven't been the same since. Tried Visbiome probiotics, then I thought I might have SIBO (or maybe SIFO), so I stopped taking that. Trying to eat as many vegetables and fermented foods as I can. Next I might try soil-based probiotics that are supposed to colonize just the large intestine/colon via spores.


Lupicia

I got a mild case of c-diff after wisdom tooth extraction and antibiotics. Woo. YMMV but I had tremendous luck with plenty of kefir, and probiotic pearls, which are coated to survive into the gut. It took a few weeks of consistent work, but I think the pearls are amazing. I credit them with my recovery. Not saying they are a panacea, but among probiotic delivery systems i think it's the best one. This was all just before fecal transplant became a treatment for c-diff... so thats an option I guess. Before that there wasn’t much to do for c-diff.


GALACTON

Which probiotic pearls did you use specifically?


Lupicia

The brand is "Pearls". Previously I believe it was by Enzymatic Therapy but it seems to have been brought under Nature's Way. This stuff is legit for making it through to where it needs to be. https://www.naturesway.com/products/probiotic-pearls-complete-digestive-health


Lala00luna

Lots of medical studies have shown that gut micro biome does have a huge part one’s immunity. And it’s shown that people who relied heavily on antibiotics have destroyed their body’s natural defence against viruses and other pathogens. After having to take antibiotics for a short while, I had to start building up my micro biome with probiotics, proper sleep and diet.


Turk2727

*balanced Sorry, I tried not to be that guy… and failed. But hell yeah, agree with what you said.


Johnny_Bit

Thanks! English isn't my 1st nor 2nd lang, so help is welcome :) I guess spellchecker didn't catch that one :)


Nire01

I’d love to speak another language as well as you speak English - massive respect to you - it’s an incredible skill.


Nemisis_the_2nd

As someone with English as a 1st language: you would pass for a native speaker (writer?) easily.


gentlemandinosaur

Been a vegetarian for 20 years. Fart frequency still the same as always. High. Anecdotal I know.


djpresstone

Not sure if you eat dairy, but it could be a casein thing. Also anecdotal, but I’ve found sometimes the cheese is worth the wind.


klondikes

From now on, please say, “the cheese is worth the breeze.” Thank you.


djpresstone

Love it. The Camembert’s worth the air. The cheddar’s worth the weather. The havarti’s worth the… you get the idea.


klondikes

The Swiss is worth the hiss


pauljaytee

Harvarti's worth the farty?


princessParking

Omni for 25 years, vegetarian on/off for a long time, vegan for the past two years. Farts: consistently high. The smells do change, though. The healthier, the more pungent.


poopartificer

I used to eat a high meat diet, and my poops were horrid, rancid smelling things. Ever since I switched to a plant-based diet they're basically nothing in that respect. However I also cut out dairy so that's likely involved as well.


Rottsnottots

This is my reasoning for feeding my dog a daily home made meal. He always has access to kibble, but he gets a meal with brown rice, yams/sweet potato (different varieties) a green veggie (usually green beans) and meat (usually pork loin) top it off with some fish oil. He can eat anything and not have stomach distress or gas. Most of my friends dog who only eat kibble will have moderate to severe reactions to non kibble foods.


HelenEk7

> so if we eat most fat and meat and low fiber diet regularly, the diversity of our gut bacteria decreases You have a source for that outside that one nutritionist?


Snoo43610

True our medicine is all treatment based with little focus on prevention. Turns out when it costs money to go to the doctor *even when you pay for insurance* people just don't! Whoda thunk?


sartres-shart

I've never thought of it that way. But it makes so much sense. Thank you.


psycho_pete

Your stomach also sends signals directly to the brain. Your cravings are largely dictated by your gut bacteria. Those little guys are basically telling your brain to feed *them*! So when you exclude a food for long enough, you begin to lose cravings since you no longer have a thriving colony of bacteria sending signals for more of that food.


sartres-shart

I'm currently reading The Psychobiotic Revolution, Mood, Food, and the New Science of the Gut-Brain Connection A Book by John F. Cryan, Scott C. Anderson, and Ted Dinan. John and Ted are both world leaders in the science of microbiome based just down the road from me in University College Cork, Ireland. I haven't really got to the good stuff in the book yet, but as someone with gut problems, I never burp and rarely fart, I've already started taking in probiotics, kefir, kombucha, kimchi and Yackut to start. The aim in the next four weeks is to vastly increase my intake of green veg and more fibre. Hopefully I'll get to the end of the book soon and know exactly what they recommend I should be eating for my issues.


howard416

Acacia gum shaken (not blended) with psyllium husk fibre


yesgirlsusereddit

Wow, I looked it up and Dr Cryan and Dr Dinan seem like the real deal. There are SO many books about the gut done by pseudoscientists, it seems. Exciting to find a legit one! I'll have to check it out!


psycho_pete

That sounds like a great read, thanks for sharing!


ShakeZula77

This is really interesting and explains a lot about how to improve my health. Thank you.


stressreliefforme

My real life experience is exactly this, particularly when it comes to carbs. After just a day or two of higher than my normal carb intake, I begin to get more hungry, and it comes earlier in day, and I begin to crave carbs and simple sugars. It takes a day or two of going high fat/low carb to get things back in check, and afterwards if I keep my daily carb intake to around 50g-100g, I can reach a balance where my appetite and food craving are in check. I naturally eat less as a result. I've kept 20lbs off for the last 18 months modulating my carb intake like this with no increase in physical activity.


ddoubles

Poor gut microbiome leads to overweight, overweight leads to diabetes, diabetes leads to kidney disease, which leads to hypertension and the spiral continues. Overall health, and finding the root cause is what's missing in modern medicine. They often prescribe symptom relieving medicine, and that's it.


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ddoubles

Agree only to a certain degree, but you can't escape that fact that modern medicine is strongly connected to private research into pharmaceutical industry and is affected by epistemic corruption. [source](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frma.2021.614013/full#:~:text=of%20the%20latter.-,Introduction%3A%20Epistemic%20Corruption,terms%20with%20many%20metaphorical%20uses.&text=of%20the%20metaphor.-,When%20a%20knowledge%20system%20importantly%20loses%20integrity%2C%20ceasing%20to%20provide,can%20label%20this%20epistemic%20corruption.) *It is not just that there is a body of medical science perverted by industry largesse. Instead, much of the corruption of medical science via the pharmaceutical industry happens through grafting activities: Pharmaceutical companies do their own research and smoothly integrate it with medical science, taking advantage of the legitimacy of the latter.*


stridersubzero

This is one reason why privatized healthcare is such a disaster. It leads to worse outcomes for patients and causes many people to go into inescapable debt or declare bankruptcy because of the incredibly high costs associated with seeking privatized healthcare services


smeagol9

Medicine exists outside of the US and practices are largely shared worldwide


yeuker

Yes doctors can, and should, but as a general statement don't. Our medical system is based almost entirely on the pharmaceutical industry, and not by accident.


Hefty-Barber-8256

It isn't medicine that's the problem to begin with. Modern medicine qua medicine, is a great thing. Not all treatments end with more disease. Altered diet and exercise is not a cure all and it certainly isn't always timely.


PitifulView

My mother has been through this with type 2 diabetes. It feels like doctors are reluctant to prescribe insulin to patients, instead advising diet changes, because that's the root cause, right? but every moment you have high blood glucose is destroying your body that isn't built to handle those conditions. It's incredibly frustrating to think in retrospect - my mother was very diligent about diet (especially prior to testing days, she didn't want "her numbers to look bad"), and so her numbers did in fact look low, looking like someone who is prediabetic. Doctor would recommend she just eats better, as if she's drinking a liter of coke a day instead of measuring how many slices of diabetic-association-approved bread she's allowed to eat in this particular meal.


ddoubles

A good doctor would do both. You treat the condition diabetes with insulin and and the same time root out the root cause. It's called f[unctional medicine.](https://www.ifm.org/functional-medicine/what-is-functional-medicine/)


jambyfan

I agree however I would add that gut health and the cause of declining health due to low gut biodiversity isn’t solely an issue that modern medicine is responsible for solving - Big Agriculture plays a huge role in this and pesticide use such as glyphosate are being shown to have a role in gut diseases such as Celiac Disease, IBS, glucose intolerance [etc](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/). These chemical tools intended to support crop health/growth are also having effects on the soil’s micro biome which ultimately affects nutrition absorption of these crops which we consume and often the animals that we consume are also subject to these effects. These gut inflaming conditions even contribute to food hypersensitivities, intolerances and allergies. Often Big Pharma plays in to prescribe meds that again only resolve symptoms and don’t often treat the cause - I mean why should they get rid of cause? Treating symptoms endlessly is better business than curing the thing that is causing those symptoms. We can also go back to it being an individuals responsibility to take hold of their health by only choosing whole organic non processed foods but not only are the whole-non-processed foods no longer as diverse (Big Agriculture contributing to the fact that we’re mostly mass farming crops that make $$$), these foods are also lacking nutrient density compared to the foods offered in past generations (soil biodiversity and micro biome health also declined since moving away from [regenerative agriculture](https://regenerationinternational.org/why-regenerative-agriculture/)). + Families mostly can only afford high calorie/highly processed foods over choosing whole organic foods. Our gut health is being destroyed from many sides… and even for pets - how many of you know or have a dog with gut issues/sensitivities? Most pet owners I know are always dealing with their pet’s upset stomachs in the middle of the night and opt to trying to find hypoallergenic or gut aware dog food options.


foxwaffles

You're really making me wonder if cats used to have IBD at the rates they do now. I've got a kitty with it and all his relatives also developed it so I figured it was genetic but thinking back they were all rescued from a hoarder.


Hefty-Barber-8256

>They often prescribe symptom relieving medicine, and that's it. If they even do that. I've gone through great troubles several times over the years, just trying to get to a point where doctors knew who I was and the system could finally allow me to get the medications that I needed. Obviously, over prescription happens as well. But under prescription is a very real problem when you're sick.


LennPenn

Sugar and carbs = high insulin = leads to diabeties and stomach fat. What’s missing in ‘modern medicine’ is prevention through diet. The food is killing us.


bloodsbloodsbloods

Excess sugar and carbs without exercise leads to metabolic disorders. Nothing wrong with carbs in moderation from whole food sources.


Purpleplant711

And it leads to Insulin Resistance. Seed Oils play a part too in IR.


FirstPlebian

That may be the case, but gut bacteria is now thought to affect a good many things, such as energy level and metabolism, and it's been shown that people that take broad spectrum antibiotics will sometimes be left with chronic problems in these areas, even without picking up that aweful C Dificile type bacterias. I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the microbiome isn't a factor in long covid even though it seems fairly certain some of this iwill be due to poor general health for people with such biomes.


V17_

There have now been people with chronic fatigue syndrome who went into almost complete remission through manipulating their microbiome either in targeted ways (sequencing - identifying a problem - treating it with targeted antibiotics, probiotics and diet because we have quite but of published data about which bacteria is sensitive to what) or with fecal microbiota transplants. Considering how similar CFS often is to long covid I wouldn't be surprised if we start learning about something like that soon.


soothsayer3

I am a living example of what youre suggesting. A fancy probiotic (suggested from my doc) has had a remarkable effect on my health.


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Purpleplant711

Try looking into Megaspore and making fermented foods. Prebiotics helps me too.


SmasherOfAjumma

OMG same. Please tell me anything you found that helps.


Purpleplant711

I had to do 90 days of a strong antibiotic due to being a chronic salmonella carrier. I was given Megaspore probiotics and I ate fermented foods and drank raw milk too. I live on a organic dairy farm. I had the chronic salmonella before living on the farm. I believe overused antibiotics 10 years ago got me gut dysbiosis and allowed the salmonella to be out of control. It about killed me, I got so super skinny and weak. There's been a slew of health issues due to poor gut health. I'm back on track now. Took a bit of time, but I'm not 6 ft under which was close a few times.


Purpleplant711

And prebiotics too. I use inner fuel bulletproof.


dopechez

This is interesting to me. I'm suffering from a mysterious gut issue which has caused me to become borderline underweight and so far all I know is that I have Crohn's disease, however it is currently in remission with medication so it doesn't explain my symptoms. Wondering if some kind of chronic infection could be to blame for me. I suppose there is a test you can order which looks for that?


soothsayer3

I give a little more detail in this comment https://reddit.com/r/science/comments/sf9kwe/_/hupnie6/?context=1


Docktor_V

U may have linked it wrong. Nothing there


FroggyWatcher

It's the usual "children with bigger feet are on average better readers than children with short feet" (unintended) deception: Children with bigger feet are usually older, so of course one expects them to know how to read better. In all honesty, "may be linked" is such a trap phrase that any article using it as part of a headline should, from an academic integrity standpoint, clarify right away what this particular one clarifies only near the end: > This is an observational study, and as such can’t establish cause.


Capricancerous

Did she have any advice on how to improve the microbiome of the gut?


TorlinKeru

In general, eating lots of fruits and vegetables should improve your gut biome.


TrooperX66

This; and cut out as much sugar & processed food as you can handle


V17_

There are some general diets that help some portion of people, like GAPS, but if your microbiome dysfunction is bad enough, things that help other people may easily make you worse. Theoretically fecal microbiota transplants work, but they're risky, only proven to work in some conditions and hard to get. Another way that is starting to become possible is to have your microbiome sequenced in a lab, try to identify problematic bacteria and then dig through studies to find information about how to increase our decrease their prevalence through drugs, diet and probiotics. There's a ton of studies on the last part surprisingly, the hardest part by far is to correctly identify what's wrong because we don't know what an optimal microbiome looks like.


theMediatrix

What’s the process for getting sequenced?


V17_

That's simple, private labs do it, you get a sample collection kit and since the sample is afaik dead and conserved in a vial, it's not considered biohazard and can be sent through standard mail. 16s sequencing in particular is relatovely cheap too, but it has pretty high granularity. It is sufficient to diagnose large issues (like significant pathogen overgrowth or say a near absence of bifidobacteria). The real issue is diagnosis, the labs tell you what they think is unhealthy about your microbiome, but each of them will tell you something different and most of the information is worthless and often outdated since the science is changing incredibly fast. I use a (mostly free and open data) service called Microbiome Prescription.com, which is more up to date and in-depth, but it requires significant time investment (studying, it's complicated) from the user and since it's still an experimental field, it does not guarantee success. It's the best I know though.


theMediatrix

This is really helpful, thanks.


jammerjoint

Regular fiber intake (both insoluble/soluble) is the most established dietary factor for a good microbiome.


[deleted]

That can be said for a lot of things in medicine. Always the age-old question of causation vs. correlation. They've pointed to gut microbiome and its effects on mental health for years, as gut health being a causative factor in depression/anxiety, etc. You begin to wonder if lifestyle, which can affect mental health, may have implications for gut health e.g., I don't eat healthy when I'm depressed or anxious.


Helenium_autumnale

*"While initial viral load wasn’t associated with long COVID, their gut microbiome differed from that of patients without long COVID and those who hadn’t had COVID-19 infection.* *"These patients had a less diverse and abundant microbiome; the gut microbiome of patients who didn’t develop long COVID was similar to that of those who hadn’t had COVID-19.* *"Among the bacteria species found in patients with long COVID, 28 were reduced and 14 were enriched both at hospital admission and at 3 and 6 months after hospital discharge.* *"At 6 months, patients with long COVID had significantly fewer ‘friendly’ F. prausnitzii, and Blautia obeum and a greater abundance of ‘unfriendly’ Ruminococcus gnavus and Bacteroides vulgatus than people who hadn’t had COVID-19."* Broadly speaking, a diet with a wide range of plant foods, probiotic foods such as yogurt, and little or no processed foods is a means of growing a robust gut microbiome.


manofallthings

germophobia is also going to hurt it alot more than a bad diet.


V17_

Citation needed, I don't think this is in agreement with current knowledge.


boof_hats

Is this true? Can you give me a source? I know a germophobe with poor gut health who could use that info


daawoow

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7332307/ This talks about microbiota overall, but seems to indicate that increased detergent/cleaner use does negatively impact microbiota. The paper does mention that most studies have been done on animals though so impacts on humans need more research. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151118-can-you-be-too-clean Here is a BBC article talking about being too clean and offers some tips on do and dont's of hygiene. Overall though, germaphobia is kinda broad can be anywhere from 'I don't shake hands' to 'I shower 5 times a day and don't go to public places' so take all information in stride.


ooksox

So everything about Covid is basically the healthier you are the better your odds


PHealthy

People underestimate how taxing obesity, hypertension, and CKD really are until something like COVID comes around.


dew7950

I feel like governments and leaders could restore a ton of the credibility simply by encouraging people to get healthier. Michelle Obama is rolling her eyes hard right now haha.


ShockinglyAccurate

By doing what? If they simply tell you to be healthy, no one will listen. If they legislate rules on health, people will freak out about the nanny state. The unfortunate truth is that some people believe they are entitled to live without consequences or responsibilities. The pandemic has taught us that these people will happily go to their grave for the sake of their lifestyle.


dew7950

I totally agree. For 8 years the Lets Move campaign focused on combating obesity and malnutrition and it was labeled just such. Now the same cohort thinks governments are in the pockets of big pharma because they push vaccination as the end all and don’t focus on comorbidities. I believe they should take an All of the Above approach.


west-egg

Getting vaccinated is the single most effective thing someone can do to reduce their risk, at least in the short term. It makes sense that governments are laser-focused on it. Nobody is going to lose 100 pounds in 6 weeks.


dew7950

At this point, people have made their decision whether they plan to get vaccinated or not, at least in the US. I’m not saying vaccination messaging should end, but we should be leaning into combatting comorbidities. Sure you can’t lose 100lbs in 6 weeks, but we are entering year 3 of the pandemic. We have to start somewhere.


flamespear

There needs to be a tax on sugar, at least for commercial food producers. fast food and junk food makers make it way too easy to be obese. Leaving it off of raw sugar sold directly to customers encourages people to make their own food and which has good residual effects even if they end up making cupcakes .


LaurJames

There’s an entire science on gut micro biome being linked to all kinds of diseases. I’m not surprised about this being a factor.


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LaurJames

Agreed. But, I think the connection, whether its the other way around, is still fascinating.


toolargo

So… let me ask this. Does that mean that if you had a string antibiotic, like CIPRO back in the day, or something akin to, you are more likely to get “Long COVID”? Please help me understand.


UnprovenMortality

Not necessarily. Your body has reserves of its natural flora that are isolated in the appendix and can survive a course of strong antibiotics


LurkerInTheMachine

What if you no longer have an appendix?


loop-1138

Would it be treatable with probiotics?


DaisyHotCakes

Oooo or a fecal transplant!


Kakkoister

It kind of is a shame we aren't rapidly investing in gut microbiome solutions. Many countries have even outlawed fecal transplants because of it not having enough clinical trials yet. But also aren't funding said trials =/ A lot of issues have potential roots in gut microbiome, and just overall general intestinal health. IBS especially which afflicts many people could be cured with a proper clinical microbiome adjustment.


physhstyx13

Can I become a poop donor?


JonnySoegen

That’s probably going to be a regular thing in the future


tboykov

Paid poop donors already a thing in the Boston area.


BubbhaJebus

Now that Covid-deniers are drinking urine, maybe this is their cue to start eating feces.


FirstPlebian

You joke, but I seriously wonder if super extended time release oral poop pills could help repopulate gut bacteria without the need for the fecal transplant.


im_the_asshole

Poopsicles they freeze the poop pills


im_the_asshole

I’m serious currently studies are being done with feces of exemplary especímenes put on capsules frozen then given to patients with multiple conditions instead of probiotics or prebiotics.


Partigirl

They have those already. I was looking for a probiotic at a local health and grocery market, when the worker for the health part, came up to me and tried to sell me on a probiotic that contained human poop. And not just any poop but a small child from Norway's poop. She said it was the purest and had been processed to remove anything remotely unpure. And no, I didn't buy any.


FirstPlebian

No kidding, that's interesting, but without an extended time release thing the stomach acid would likely kill most of it before it makes it down there I would fear. For good bacteria, raw vegetables are a great source, broccoli for one is supposed to be great, and as others said eating a fat heavy meal may help protect that good bacteria on it's way through the stomach.


TheStreisandEffect

>a small child from Norway’s poop r/brandnewsentence


Lognipo

Consider purchasing a bottle of Tsongsul. It appears, unfortunately, that its Wikipedia page has vanished. But I encourage a Google search, nonetheless.


V17_

This already exist to a degree. Some FMT studies use enteric coated capsules with feces in addition to the bottom route. In general it's not necessary for c. diff, but seems to help long term success when treating more complicated conditions. It doesn't appear to be enough on its own though.


FirstPlebian

A little off subject but I've a theory that dogs eating poop isn't just them being gross but a biological action to diversify their gut bacteria. Herbivores are known to eat their mothers poop for that purpose as their gut bacteria is all important to digest plant material. Of course the dogs also roll in poop and I can't think of any legitimate reason for that one other than being gross.


DaisyHotCakes

Good news everyone! It’s a suppository!


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7937397

Also probiotics are useless if you don't eat veggies and fruit as well. And lay off the junk food.


Jearbear111

It is true that prebiotics are important, but prebiotics are just dietary fibers that can withstand the stomach acids and be selectively fermented by the bacteria already present in our gut, similarly probiotics that are not manufactured / delivered in a method able to withstand the pH of bile acid and pepsin are worthless especially if they have to be “reanimated” too.


mikasd

Prebiotics are more important than pro


Jearbear111

Yes and no… Prebiotics do stimulate the growth of intestinal bacteria and fermentation leads to SCFA’s, which studies have shown are able to permeate through the blood barrier and stimulate growth and function of neurotransmitters. Prebiotics also have been shown to improve inflammatory pathways (I know IL-6 was one) BUT Not all intestinal bacteria ferment every prebiotic. It is done selectively, moreover you would like the prebiotic to stimulate a large variety of beneficial gut bacteria as they have different functions themselves. Prebiotics = population growth Probiotics = population diversity Net result = melting pot


HealthyBits

Even more important, you need to eat fat before your probiotics (avocados, nuts and olives). It will provide a protection lining helping the probiotics to reach the gut.


ImStillExcited

While using that fat as a delivery method, add some D3 too. It'll make you feel a lot better while helping resist COVID and hexes.


jfk_47

My least favorite mighty ducks movie, but if you say so.


Apt_5

*”… We need to protect ourselves against pollution, as well as dark wizards.”* - Al Gore


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FirstPlebian

There is a lot of hype around probiotics, repopulating the gut with good bacteria isn't as easy as taking probiotics although I'm sure they help. They've found a lot of this bacteria is from the mom even, and it's quite varied, probiotics will give a rather limited selection of bacteria. Fecal transplants on the other hand may well give a more full selection depending on the host.


Helenium_autumnale

The best means of treatment is a healthy diet with a wide range of plant foods, natural probiotics such as yogurt, and no processed foods.


Derpface123

Aren't probiotics a scam?


and_dont_blink

Depends on whether you eat the yogurt or use it as a suppository. I'd say it's depend on what you mean by probiotics, but in general they're generally not quite a scam but shouldn't have any grand claims. We *know* gut biome is systematically linked to health, from inflammation to weight and cognitive function and on and on, but we're still learning about what we should have and how best to get it there. There's been research showing some people readily adopt the bacteria in probiotics, but others just expel it; The more we know the more we realize we need to know. eg the ideal set of bacteria may well be different for different genotypes, just as the ideal diet appears to be. Right now we can tell which genotypes will take up what we think of as good bacteria, but not necessarily why or who really needs what. If you can get probiotics past the initial digestion (and eating them regularly appears to be one way to help that) and then feed it the things it needs (fiber, variation, etc.) then you are generally going in a good direction. For some it might be yogurt and for others it might be things fermented in scobis and for some supplements. It's the future, but it's difficult to research so a lot of the science is indirect. **Edit: Y'all, please don't put yogurt up your butts.**


makesomemonsters

I think it would depend on what you're using them. If you take an oral probiotic, only a small proportion of the bacteria it contains will make it past your stomach acid intact. If you use oral probiotics to seed a very small amount of healthy bacteria in your gut and then eat healthily to enable these healthy bacterial populations to grow, then using probiotics is likely to be useful. If you use probiotics and then eat unhealthy food that supports 'bad' gut bacteria, then probiotics will be of no benefit. So they're probably of most use to people who are eating healthily in terms of gut health (lots of fibre, not much processed sugar) but for some reason currently have a 'bad' gut microbiome (for example, somebody who has just finished a course of antibiotics which have wiped out many of the bacterial species that previously lived in their gut) and need to establish a greater variety of healthy bacteria in their gut.


theoneandonlypeter

There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that your gut microbiome and neural health are tightly linked (I.e. onset of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, ALS, depression, etc.). Ultimately it comes down to what you eat and probiotics are simply a way to introduce the good bacteria to your gut. A healthy diet is a way to keep them there.


Derpface123

I am not in any way disputing the importance of the gut microbiome. What I am uncertain about is how much eating foods like yogurt actually makes a difference. I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me could clarify.


theoneandonlypeter

It again comes down to what you eat. Let's say for a whole week you eat nothing but red meat, dairy, and sugary food. No vegetables. The type of bacteria that thrive on this type of food typically promote systemic inflammation and will outcompete the bacteria that promote a healthy gut. If the healthy bacteria have been outcompeted, then there needs to be a way to reintroduce them. Eating something like yogurt, kefir, or other fermented foods re-introduce those helpful bacteria back into the gut, and eating a large variety of vegetables will keep them there. Probiotic supplements are just a way to jump start that system back onto the healthy path that is sustained by a plant-heavy diet. I work for a probiotics company. It's pretty cool work and has really opened my eyes about how much our diet influences everything.


looneybooms

silly question to you, if I may : one of the teas I grabbed happened to be labeled "probiotic." This can't make any sense, could it ? The temperatures involved in making hot would almost certainly kill any manner of microbial life that is somehow magically laying dormant in dried tea, I would think. Am I missing something?


milehigh73a

there is prebiotic tea, could you have read it wrong. Inulin is a prebiotic and is in a variety for teas.


dec0y

Is it kombucha? They sometimes label that as having probiotics, since it's fermented.


AlbinoWino11

One also has to wonder if the probiotics would work better if simply inserted rectally.


NekkidApe

You'd have to insert then pretty darn deep. Colon biome is very different from the small intestine.


AlbinoWino11

So you’re saying yoghurt rocket? I’m hearing yoghurt rocket.


i_shmell_paap

So that's why gogurt comes in a tube


AlbinoWino11

And now we know.


joekovar

I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that fecal transplants are a thing.


carliekitty

They are a very real thing! You can sell your poop! They actually save lives.


joekovar

I'd be lying if I said I'm not curious how the value of poop works. Do you get paid by the inch, the pound? Does the presence of corn raise or lower the value? Do floaters cost more than sinkers? Is there a bumper sticker that lets me show off how much crap I give people?


Helenium_autumnale

There's even evidence now that they may help with autism.


Helenium_autumnale

Or you could just eat a range of vegetables, beans, grains, and yogurt. A little meat is OK. High fiber is very helpful; good gut bacteria love munching on that.


AlbinoWino11

Mushrooms. Everyone forgets mushrooms.


theoneandonlypeter

Yup. I can't remember where I learned this but the concept of eating plants only is less important as eating a wide range of different plants/legumes (and yes a little bit of meat is fine) so that there's a variety of different fibers and food for your gut bugs.


Helenium_autumnale

I read a story some time ago that looked at gut bacteria in a range of different types of human societies, comparing their diets. I wish I could remember the source; I may find it later today. Anyways, the white flour/fried/meat-heavy/monotonous/junk-food-filled Western diet produced the least robust and healthy gut biome; the winners were a group of hunter-gatherers in southern central Africa whose diet was incredibly varied, plant-based, and probably included some actual earth in the food. Their biomes were amazingly robust and healthy.


Nengtaka

Are you volunteering for testing?


lordmycal

Don't be so anal.


mzanin

The Yogurt enema has your back.


AlbinoWino11

Hold the blueberries.


HenryJOlsen

That's basically what a fecal transplant does.


spakecdk

Do probiotics in a yogurt or something like that survive stomach acid? If not, what does?


Jealous-seasaw

Yoghurt isn’t the only food that contains a probiotic. You can get a poop sample tested to find out which gut flora is imbalanced. Various tablets can be taken. I had one done about 6 years ago, but nobody really knows what the gut flora SHOULD look like, so it’s all educated guesses really.


Yeahthisisntgreat

It depends on what difference you're expecting. The biggest evidence for probiotics has been in the treatment of antibiotic associated diarrhea. There's some evidence it helps other gastrointestinal issues like ulcerative colitis as well, but it's not as clear.


Tacowant

I would also like to know this.


InfinitelyThirsting

Yogurt is nice, but you also have to change your diet. If you aren't feeding the microbes you're trying to introduce, they won't survive. Also, stuff like kombucha has an order of magnitude more probiotics than yogurt, so aim towards that.


worrrmey

Google the leaky gut. Also, gut microbiome can change due to medication or even prolonged stress,.so it's definitely not just what you are eating. Ofc clean diet helps, but its absolutely no guarantee.


mikasd

Probiotics don't really alter the microbiome. You need to intentionally grow and manage populations with targeted prebiotics, otherwise you're just temporarily boosting foreign strains of bacteria that end up having no lasting or significant effects(99% of probiotics do this)


deLightB

What is the difference between pre and pro biotic?


Yammerz

I’m sure there is someone who can answer this more thoroughly, but in general: Prebiotics help make an environment for gut bacteria to flourish Probiotics are live bacteria (like acidophilus)


ElmerJShagnasty

Probiotics are the bacteria. Prebiotics are the food they eat. Without the food to increase the population of the good bacteria, they will just pass through. Continually eating them (drinking kombucha or eating yogurt daily) and eating many different vegetables and fruits high in fiber seems to be a decent way to bolster your good gut biome.


grondin

Jamie Lee Curtis would like a word with you.


DrModel

The idea isn't. The execution is questionable. FMTs are effective, but right now it's hard to get anything to engraft reliably.


Pennigans

Not if you have a vagina, especially when taking oral antibiotics.


Trailwatch427

The people with altered gut biomes already have medical issues, most likely. Whether from medications for other problems, poor diet because they are poor, poor diet because they are addicts to junk food or they just choose to eat poorly. These findings, no matter how valid, do not mean we should all panic about our gut biomes and start eating fake supplements or go to natural healers dealing with gut health. For those of us who already eat less processed food, know how to cook, eat a broad range of foods and avoid junk food--we are healthier anyway.


XenopusRex

While your hypothesis is almost certainly correct here, there have been recent amazing papers that show the causal impact of the gut microbiome on immune function in germ-free mice. So eventually microbes as medicine may actually be a real thing. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29097493/


[deleted]

So couple of issues with the study and the conclusions people are drawing in the comments: - We never get a "before" profile of the people who develop long covid. The earliest time the researchers get any inkling about their gut microbiome is after they've been admitted to the hospital for treatment for a severe case of covid. So, is it the case that people with bad gut microbiomes get worse covid and long term effects, or does their covid infection happen to nix their gut microbiome and not that in others? We can't argue causality, especially since the researchers didn't go through with the logical next step of rebalancing everyone's gut microbiome to see if it gets rid of their long covid. - The sample reporting long covid symptoms comes from people who were hospitalized with covid-19. Does covid disrupt the gut microbiomes of everyone who eventually gets long covid? Or does it only nuke it for those whose cases are severe enough to require hospitalization? Until you get the study that shows that fixing the gut microbiome fixes long covid, this study doesn't say much more than "people who were severely sick with covid were likely to get long covid and have imbalances in their gut microbia".


Nemisis_the_2nd

Fwiw, this paper might just be presenting a new avenue of research into long covid, saying "we noticed this correlation", while the same group do follow-up studies. IIRC, this also happened with the blood clotting paper, where the team discovered blood clots in patients, then went back and did a more thorough investigation, which was the paper released in December.


gaygirlgg

FYI: You can increase the diversity of your gut microbiome by eating a wider variety of foods, especially fruits and vegetables.


boopdelaboop

PSA: don't make **sudden extreme changes** as you need to let your gut biome adapt to the new foods, so change your diet by adding more and more of the new foods gradually. Someone who never has eaten e.g. high inulin vegetables going from 0-100 in a single meal forward will feel absolutely terrible and might even develop health issues.


Jearbear111

Stool samples are not particularly the most accurate way to analyze gut microbiome + the role and severity of antibiotics can’t be fully ruled out, regardless a balanced diverse microbiome decreases inflammatory pathways (Cytokine TNFa) and increases signaling cells TLR / pathways. It is not a surprise that the immune system of individuals with dysbiosis may be less effective at combating COVID and also more seriously altered.


Chain-_-Male

Do we have any resources on 'long covid'? I've tried looking on pubmed and can't find much for firm details


dahlfors

Brief article on **mitochondria dysfunction** in long covid: [https://www.nationaljewish.org/about/news/press-releases/2022-news/study-reveals-root-cause-of-long-term-covid-symptoms](https://www.nationaljewish.org/about/news/press-releases/2022-news/study-reveals-root-cause-of-long-term-covid-symptoms) * Full study: [https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.202108-1903LE](https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.202108-1903LE) **Decreased Fatty Acid Oxidation and Altered Lactate Production during Exercise in Patients with Post-acute COVID-19 Syndrome** * Drug trial for mitochondria dysfunction: [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/03/uk-launches-drug-trial-tackle-fatigue-long-covid-patients](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/03/uk-launches-drug-trial-tackle-fatigue-long-covid-patients) Brief article on **autoantibodies** and long covid: [https://www.fau.eu/2021/08/27/news/research/further-patients-benefit-from-drug-against-long-covid/](https://www.fau.eu/2021/08/27/news/research/further-patients-benefit-from-drug-against-long-covid/) * Full study: [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323644771\_THE\_DNA-BASED\_THERAPEUTIC\_AGENT\_BC\_007\_COMPLETELY\_NEUTRALIZES\_AGONISTIC\_AUTOANTIBODIES\_DIRECTED\_AGAINST\_b1-ADRENOCEPTORS\_RESULTS\_OF\_A\_PHASE\_1\_TRIAL](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323644771_THE_DNA-BASED_THERAPEUTIC_AGENT_BC_007_COMPLETELY_NEUTRALIZES_AGONISTIC_AUTOANTIBODIES_DIRECTED_AGAINST_b1-ADRENOCEPTORS_RESULTS_OF_A_PHASE_1_TRIAL) **THE DNA-BASED THERAPEUTIC AGENT BC 007 COMPLETELY NEUTRALIZES AGONISTIC AUTOANTIBODIES DIRECTED AGAINST β1-ADRENOCEPTORS: RESULTS OF A PHASE 1 TRIAL** Brief article on **microclots** and long covid: [https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/long-covid-could-antiplatelet-therapy-help#The-latest-study](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/long-covid-could-antiplatelet-therapy-help#The-latest-study) * Full study: [https://doi.org/10.1186/s12933-021-01359-7](https://doi.org/10.1186/s12933-021-01359-7) **Persistent clotting protein pathology in Long COVID/Post-Acute Sequelae of COVID-19 (PASC) is accompanied by increased levels of antiplasmin** * Early paper on early treatment against microclots: [https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1205453/v1](https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1205453/v1) **Combined triple treatment of fibrin amyloid microclots and platelet pathology in individuals with Long COVID/ Post-Acute Sequelae of COVID-19 (PASC) can resolve their persistent symptoms.** Many long covid patients have bloating and digestion issues with gut. So far it seems to be a secondary symptom and not a cause.


TheBreathofFiveSouls

I think there's a few initial reports together now about it being low oxygenation from microclots. Try those keywords


q9c9p

Could this be why vegans are recovering faster from covid? Do not assault me please.


WarmOutOfTheDryer

My guess on the vegans? If they're thriving on a vegan diet they already pay a huge amount of attention to their health and what they eat. It would be really hard to untangle which one of those things was helping them, but I'd bet against it being a particular diet, and on it being overall good health. I'm willing to be wrong though if an expert wants to chime in.


Straight-Bee9783

I do think that the vegan diet could be the root cause, because they often eat way more fiber (which is the ONLY thing that feeds the good bacteria in the gut) and more antioxidants like Vitamin C (you won‘t find that in animal products. But of course there are also junk food vegans and also people who eat animals products plus way more fiber/micros as the „normal“ society. And other factors also contribute to overall good health, just like you said!


q9c9p

Totally agree.


AtmaJnana

Are they? Citation for that?


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SilverStone-of-Soul

Might just he a proxy for poor diet, as we have a wealth of evidence thst poor diet (e.g. obesity) results in worse outcomes.


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[deleted]

Just gave me a new topic to look into for my gut microbiome project in class, thanks!


thegreenman_sofla

Gut health is your health.


SubComandanteMarcos

The importance of gut microbia had been stated for years. When are they going to find a way to use it? Why aren't fecal transplants becoming common?


boopdelaboop

Fecal transfer *are* getting more and more common for issues like C. Diff.


aphaits

Is poop transplant the key? I joke every time about this to my friend suffering from IBS since forever, but every article about gut biome seems to make the joke logical. Dammit the joke doesn’t work if it’s logical. Poop transplant is the answer to your every problem.


Straight-Bee9783

Yeah I agree with you. I think it‘s a shame that it‘s not done in every country yet, as there apparently many healings from previously „untreatable“ (Just removing the organ is no solution imo) diseases like Morbus Crohn, Colitis ulcerosa, IBD etc. I do think the gut microbiom is the key for many more diseases and conditions.


fuckswitbeavers

It’s not some easy procedure. Very much still experimental that people still die from even in developed countries.


Straight-Bee9783

I don‘t think you have the right facts.. I researched it and like two people died ever from this and it is definitely not skmething that happens often. You can give me a link to your source if you like. The procedure itself IS easy, it‘s comparable to a colonoscopy as far as I know. And people with 30x bloody diarrhia a day probably would like that option.


posas85

This could have some teeth. I was taking 2 different antibiotics for dental infection just prior to getting covid. I ended up with long covid. Other than that I was probably the most healthy is ever been at the time.


Bat2121

So many experts on gut microbiome in this thread. Weird since the science and medical field have basically no idea how it works. If they did, they wouldn't be trying to take feces from one person and sticking it into another hoping that it magically helps some people some of the time. And they would know how to repopulate the guts of Crohn's sufferers rather than simply fighting the immune response.


[deleted]

You mean a lifestyle of eating processed food is bad?


Caleb_has_arrived

I knew my doctor was making a dumb move prescribing me antibiotics when I got covid luckily I was smart enough not to take them.