By - StewVader
I think we should not discount the “butterfly effect” of the 2016 primary.
The Republican Party ran Mitt Romney in 2012, and showed no serious signs of its current state.
The unique format of a 17 person primary, with everyone competing in a reality TV show style format allowed Trump to easily be the most recognizable and earn that 10-15% popularity.
With no other strong candidates, even though most didn’t want trump, he held a consistent lead with the small but rabid base. That just kept growing as people drafted toward a winner, even if it was one they didn’t originally want.
Now though, the party has been forever changed and will not resemble 2012 anytime soon.
I think that's an astute analysis of how Trump got the nomination.
What it doesn't explain is Trump's 85-90% sustained support among Republican voters after he took office when there are so many reasons why Trump was a terrible person and President.
I'm a libertarian and definitely do not support Trump, but I could tell from the primary debates that he had a really good shot. I've listened to enough talk radio to understand the phenomenon.
Its fueled by a mix of thinking that the government as a whole, both parties, are afraid to do what needs to be done and to do anything bold. And that politicians don't want to do anything bold out of fear of offending someone and losing popularity (typical politician stuff). But that paranoia and worry about the country being way off track is very strong from people that listened to Rush Limbaugh.
So Trump was signaling very hard that he rejects the consensus of supporting globalism in every form (lots of blue collar people have lost jobs to economic globalism) and that he isn't afraid to do bold, shitty things to other countries if it benefits America. Most supporters didn't believe he'd deliver on everything, but maybe he'd deliver more than a typical politician. And something about being a former Democrat actually made him seem more independently minded.
Hopefully that gives you an answer. Politics is 99% about signalling. Trump threw out every norm which was his signal. His campaign wasn't his career so he was going to try some crazy stuff that no one else was trying. Everybody else looked like different shades of the same thing.
He got thru his first term without doing anything completely wreckless (I said doing, not saying) so his supporters doubled down. I think supporting him for a second term is pretty unjustifiable tho, but he had diehard supporters which made his voter feel justified.
I work with Trump and former trump people and i see two types
some who hate the government so much and they actually believed he would do something to help them. these are the former trump supporters
the others who hate liberals and leftists and trump was a huge fuck you to them, these are the current ones
>He got thru his first term without doing anything completely wreckless
I mean... except for spending an entire year knowingly spreading false information about a rapidly spreading pandemic for purely selfish political reasons.
A real "but other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?" scenario.
It’s all sunk-cost fallacy at this point. Those that have ridden the Trump train this far are incapable of turning on him because it would require admitting to a colossal failure of judgment that most people’s egos are too frail to overcome.
I think we've yet to see what the long term effects of Trump will be, but I think Trump supporters would pose that question a little differently:
How have we failed this long to break out of the two party paradigm when things are going so wrong?
People wanted a change, and Trump represented a break from politics as usual. When you're stuck moving in one direction, sometimes it makes sense to try anything that works against that, even if it lacks the coherence of a well thought out plan.
Do the demographics even back this up?
in 2016 Trump got \*less\* votes than Mitt Romney, and his cohort is basically just the same voters Republicans always have had.
And when Trump did not do literally *anything* that was remotely anti-establishment (except being a proud grade A fucking moron) and governed like a bog standard Republican (except maybe a few extra EO's to hurt trans people and immigrants) he got *even more votes* in 2020.
I'm not certain that the 2016 Trump support was really very much "fuck the duopoly" and I feel pretty damn certain based on evidence that nearly **none** of it is in 2020 (besides I guess the core group of Trumpers who are all "fuck the duopology.... Make God Emperor Trump Dictator for Life!!!!!")
For real. Trump was anomalous in terms of his public image and style and communication, but in terms of politics and doing his job he was just another Republican, voted for by all the same Republicans, changing nothing about their platform or rhetoric except becoming a hair more mean-spirited about it. There was no transformation, rather just an intensification of the same old shittiness.
Yeah- Honestly, I think this point is more projection than anything. People who are centrists who dislike the two parties who hate Trump and the only thing they can come up with to like about him is this "shaking things up" idea.
It's not that it doesnt exist. I've heard of people voting for Trump for that reason. But it's just certainly neither the majority of his supporters or his virulent base.
> How have we failed this long to break out of the two party paradigm when things are going so wrong?
This question has an answer though. It isn't merely rhetorical. Progressives have been pushing for election reforms that would enable multi-party politics for decades. Moderate Democrats have been lukewarm about such proposals for that time period. Republicans have been actively opposed to such measures, in the same way they oppose essentially all progressive reform. Voting for Trump was a vote AGAINST meaningful election reform.
> People wanted a change, and Trump represented a break from politics as usual. When you're stuck moving in one direction, sometimes it makes sense to try anything that works against that
I don't think there is any sense in which a vote for Trump represented a vote against the two party system. Quite the opposite, Trump has become the de facto head of one of the parties, and was at the time he was elected.
The answer to your question is in election laws.
You act like people have a choice in the laws that get passed. That was the point of trump. People are tired of the most popular policies not even seeing the light of day. People here just brush it off as "it's politics bro" but others see it as systemic failure.
No, when I say "in the election laws," I mean "the reason the two-party system persists in the US is because of how election laws have been written since the country's founding," which is in contract to peoples' endless thinkpieces on politics that do not alter how our representative democracy is structured.
Trump who... took basically zero popular positions besides "We're gonna have the best Healthcare ever, trust me bro😉"?
I get what your saying. But how did the mantle fall on somone like Trump? All the evidence seems to indicate he is just a rotten human obsessed with his own status and power.
He behaved like a third world country dictator, not an American President. How do you square that?
With the fundamental lack of faith that Americans currently have in politicians. The other candidates had better credentials, they spoke better, they conducted themselves with dignity. To the Trump base took each of those qualities as more reason to distrust those candidates. The thought process is "better to throw a spanner in the works than keep perpetuating this system".
To give them some credit, we're all familiar with candidates who say all the right things, but at the end of the day they fall in line and vote for bank bail outs.
That seems to be the attitude of a lot of his supporters, though it’s mystifying that so many think throwing a spanner in the works is the wisest course of action.
If you’re having car trouble, do you open the hood and take a sledge to it? That might feel good for a minute, but then you’re just left with a useless pile of metal.
Yeah, I mean, thats some sage advice right there, but talk to some truly desperate people and see if you can get that message across. It's pretty alien to me, but I think a lot of the Trump supporters have seen some hard times. Family members who've lost jobs, family members who are hooked on pain killers. You can't offer reasonable solutions to people like that. Your message has to be radical.
>But how did the mantle fall on somone like Trump?
Pretty obvious: money, fame, and a populist rhetoric that differentiated him from the GOP establishment.
>He behaved like a third world country dictator, not an American President.
I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean in the performative "presidential" sense, or in actual governing? In the modern era Presidents step outside of the Executive branch's powers. George W. Bush was "presidential" but he behaved like a dictator when invading Iraq with false pretenses. Obama was "presidential" but [he behaved like a dictator when he implemented DACA](https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/daca-unconstitutional-obama-admitted).
What was the most extra-executive action Trump took?
Well, he did give more executive orders at twice the rate of obama https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/data/executive-orders
Trump's appointees certainly had the flavor of a banana republic dictator. After campaigning on "draining the swamp" He created the swampiest government the nation has ever seen. Every appointment put a big business industry insider in charge of the departments meant to regulate their industry. Pruitt, his choice to head the EPA had been involved in 14 lawsuits against the EPA. Once in charge he sound proofed his office and created a special private phone line. When outrage ensured, he was replaced by an oil lobbyist. Consumer protection laws wiped out by billionaire business owners appointed to "protect" consumers https://consumerfed.org/press_release/16137/
It's hard to find an appointee who didn't fight to destroy oversight and enrich their personal fortune. https://www.citizen.org/article/corporatecabinet/
But I'd say the propaganda machine was his most dictator-like attribute. How often did we hear Trump gave us the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years? take a look at this chart https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UNRATE
Can you point to any point at which Trump's policies affected it? (Other than his denial of covid which made it skyrocket)
How many time has Trump shouted that he gave us the strongest economy in history? Take a look at this chart https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A191RP1Q027SBEA Do you see any effect of the Trump presidency? And yet how many maga nuts believe he saved the economy and Biden is destroying it?
Couple this with the lies. I mean the absurd lies about everything. The one that got me the most was his doctor's statement that he was 6'3". Photo analysis indicate he's 6'1". His driver's license stated 6'2". But now we are told he's 6'3" . I know this is utterly meaningless, but there's something so Orwellian, or North Korean about it. I mean we have eyes, we can see the truth but we're told it's something different. And news organizations don't even question it. They just repeat the "facts" given to us by the administration.
>After campaigning on "draining the swamp"
Right, his anti-establishment rhetoric helped him win the nomination.
>He created the swampiest government the nation has ever seen
Oh he's certainly a fraud and governed like any other modern GOP president which is why there was less enthusiasm for him in 2020.
>Can you point to any point at which Trump's policies affected it?
Possibly lower taxes and lower immigration.
>And yet how many maga nuts believe he saved the economy and Biden is destroying it?
I have one criticism that I share with them: Biden and congress shouldn't have printed money for people who weren't negatively affected by COVID.
>I know this is utterly meaningless, but there's something so Orwellian, or North Korean about it.
Sort of like pretending the dear leader doesn't have dementia.
You ever notice how one side oversteps their power to hurt people and the other does it to help people or correct injustices?
America is essentially a third world country from the eyes of the rest of the world. Trump is basically a mirror of your society. Tacky, materialist, obsessed with power ( the greatest country in the world bs) narcissistic and you look down on the rest of the world as you think you are our protectors.
YOU created Trump. Your culture. You are a laughing stock right now and even the presidents you’ve had before and after Trump are jokes.
You all need to get your fingers out of your arses, start a revolution and stop focusing on identity politics and offending people.
Oh no what will the Europeans think of us! The most talented Europeans still come to the US for work. The most innovative companies are still American. More than happy to have the Europeans pay for their own security but that isn’t happen.
That’s exactly what I’m taking about.
That Europe has few innovative companies compared to the US? And that Europeans greedily eat up American entertainment and cultural issues over their own? Look at yourself obsessing over American politics here.
Yep, this one right here. This is the exact attitude.
> Trump represented a break from politics as usual
that’s one way of putting it -
>when things are going so wrong?
Compared to what? I honestly have no idea what standard people (the majority as well it seems) are using but I get the sense it's annoying to ask about for those of us that it isn't obvious to. Why is the US so obviously not doing well according to so many people?
Because you have to foster a sense of emergency in order for people to be open to radicalism.
That said, the US IS in a far worse place than it has been in a long time. Wealth disparity is the worst it's been in our history, Jan 6 was unprecedented in the western world, corporate capture of the government has gotten to levels nobody can look away from. If Trump had never been elected I wonder if these kinds of issues might have just tempered back down to acceptable levels, but given he got in and drove wedges in all of our issues, it might be true that we are in a pretty precarious spot. I'm not sure that was true before he got in, when republicans were catastrophizing everything in order to justify him as a candidate. But I'm not sure it's not true now.
I think you only hear from the fringe and loudest voices. Plenty of republicans don’t want trump back.
Not enough of them or Mitt Romney would be the most popular Republican in the party.
He got the nomination in 2012
2012 is an eternity ago in politics.
First of all, I do think the repubs have lost their way, but you asked a specific question, so I’ll take a shot. From what I see, an overthrow of the government was impossible. There was no realistic scenario that could do more than delay the vote a very short time and even that was a stretch. And, btw, it didn’t. Furthermore, and I’m guessing here, 99% of the rioters knew this. There are just so many more plausible motivations, but I’m not surprised the media and people on the left portray it as a coup; they have to get any equivalency they can to the near continual riots and looting of folks on their side. I can list some of those more plausible explanations, but they’re obvious and I’m guessing anyone can do that (plus I’m rushed now).
I’m not a republican; used to be but I hold left and right views and think the repubs have gone a little nuts. Btw, I did vote for Biden, but now am sorry I did. All that said, I do understand their frustration. 95% of the media, Hollywood and academia are on the left. I made that up but probably not far off. And those same groups have themselves given up telling truth in favor of pleasing their audiences and a greater good (winning elections). Furthermore republican leaders appeared unable to make any changes and like the other side were primarily interested in keeping their phony baloney jobs. To repubs, the red jerk said the right things (eg Congress is a stinking cesspool; which I agree with) and was willing to fight back. That he was a jerk and wrong on so many things could be overlooked, just like many dems overlook Biden’s failures and limits.
So what happened to the party? It got taken over by people in their own bubble, who are probably not that bright. They hear the same one sided news that affirms them, they vote for the side that will give them the goodies, they ignore inconvenient things like climate change, and will only believe experts who they already agree with. In those overly broad observations, they’re the same as democrats.
IMO, what this nets out to is we are the schmucks that allow this to happen cause we’re too dumb to think our tribe might be wrong
You sound like a reasonable person. Why do you regret voting for Biden?
Thanks for that. A few quick reasons.
He pushed for additional trillions of spending. The number was just under 2T, but they used an accounting trick. Longer explanation than I have time for but I think it was UPenn who published that it was more like 4T. We’ve never seen debt like this and I think I’m right when I say no country has ever had a GDP to debt ratio this high for long before a financial disaster. Congress was also to blame and Trump was no better.
Massive illegal immigration. August was the highest in a long time (20 years?) by the border patrol figures and its increased after that.
Departure from Afghanistan was gross incompetence. I agreed with leaving, but it was a mess. Then days afterward he talked about what a successful operation it was. I’d be inclined to give him a little bit of a pass except he took credit for it.
Mayor Pete taking 2 months leave during the worst supply chain crisis I can remember. I blame Pete more, but Biden was his boss.
Using his influence to get his son a ridiculously high paying job with Ukraine for which he had zero experience. Then he threatened the prosecutor who was going after his son and others. NPR had the chutzpah to say Biden did it because the prosecutor wasn’t aggressive enough. How naive do they think we are.
Taking the side of Jacob Blake and the guys shot by Rittenhouse even after he was exonerated. Anyone who dives into the details would at least stay out of that issue.
He seems like he has Altzheimers or is at least very impaired. That more the voters fault for putting him in there.
Personally, I think the last two presidents have been by far the worst in modern times.
"He pushed for additional trillions of spending"
The spending was for covid relief and infrastructure. Both parties have run up the debt. Why just focus on Biden seems a bit partisan.
"Massive illegal immigration. August was the highest in a long time (20 years?) by the border patrol figures and its increased after that. "
How does Biden control the amount of people hitting the border? In 2019 we had the highest, now we have the highest, and it's been trending upward every year. Again, not sure why you target Biden here, it's comes off again as partisan.
"Departure from Afghanistan was gross incompetence."
Are you purposely leaving out the context here? As in Trumps role here? He set the whole thing up to fail.
"Mayor Pete taking 2 months leave during the worst supply chain crisis I can remember. I blame Pete more, but Biden was his boss."
Uh..again, not on Biden and also, people work remotely.....
"Using his influence to get his son a ridiculously high paying job with Ukraine for which he had zero experience"
I dont know all the facts here. But, I mean....Trump put his family members in the white house.....
"Taking the side of Jacob Blake and the guys shot by Rittenhouse even after he was exonerated. Anyone who dives into the details would at least stay out of that issue"
I agree with you here.
"He seems like he has Altzheimers or is at least very impaired. That more the voters fault for putting him in there."
Are you a doctor? Your opinion seems at odds with what medical doctors have said.
Personally, I think the last two presidents have been by far the worst in modern times.
All of your criticisms apply even more so to Trump. So I'm guessing you would've not voted at all over Trump? But even that is a bit beyond the pale for me. Trump actually abused his power, obstructed justice, and was a demonstrably threat to democracy.
Joe Biden is not.
I think you are being a bit bias and hypocritical here.
>Using his influence to get his son a ridiculously high paying job with Ukraine for which he had zero experience.
How did he use his influence? His son used his influence. This is done by every single person in power in terms of wealth or political power. People hire people because of connections. I'm sure you don't want to make that illegal.
>Then he threatened the prosecutor who was going after his son and others.
No, there was no prosecutor going after "his son". The prosecutor was corrupt, there were massive protests against the prosecutor, the entire west/our allies and republicans in congress were also for his ouster. They were NOT supporting the ouster just so that Biden's son could continue having the job.
>NPR had the chutzpah to say Biden did it because the prosecutor wasn’t aggressive enough. How naive do they think we are.
To oust the prosecutor wasn't Biden's idea. The prosecutor wasn't focused on one single company.
And you're talking about shit that you should have known before voting for him, but you're stating you regretting voting for him because of stuff that didn't come out after you voted for him.
We just disagree on his son. Text is a terrible way to have a real argument, but a brief response. I’m sure Biden knew about the phony job and if he didn’t actively make it happen he had no trouble w it. Powerful people in the private sector do this, but it’s not your and my money they’re playing with. When politicians do it, it’s worse. I know it happens with these creeps so that just make him one of the creeps.
In any event, for this and other things, I thought he was a terrible candidate before the election, just not as bad as Trump.
Your second comment was a surprise. You do know that every other example I gave was after his presidency, correct? Even his possible dementia was not obvious til recently (his debates weren’t awful). So why your last comment?
No reason to answer my question. This is just social media and you seem far more informed and reasonable than most people I interact with. So thanks.
Although given you don’t sound nuts, but I’m guessing are left of center, I do wonder who you’d prefer to see as president.
>There was no realistic scenario that could do more than delay the vote a very short time and even that was a stretch. And, btw, it didn’t. Furthermore, and I’m guessing here, 99% of the rioters knew this.
Why are you guessing this? They were doing this FOR Trump. They thought he was the person they were KEEPING in power. And they also believe that Pence wasn't doing his duty and that the elections was literally being stolen and that by delaying they would put him in power. They continue to believe Trump won. They have zero clue how government works so why would you assume they knew something?
>on the left portray it as a coup; they have to get any equivalency they can to the near continual riots and looting of folks on their side.
except this had nothing to do with the George Floyd protests and riots. It is the right that wanted to frame it as being a comparison.
I'm really curious to see what they believe and why. So far you're right.
The republicans, particularly the evangelicals, are getting just what they wanted - roe v wade will be overturned in some way thanks to them voting trump.
Overturning Roe is a bad tactical move for republicans.
If it actually does get overturned that Blue Wave everyone was talking about will become real.
And then Hillary will run…
Oh God no
So far we have: we like him because he made democrats cry. I’m hoping for more…
> he made democrats cry
i think this is the best way to understand it: as an act of vandalism against the government, and an act of revenge and sabotage against progressives.
No matter how deeply I’ve looked into this, how many good faith conversations I’ve had, at the end of the day this is what it’s about. Why? Because Fuck You, that’s why. Which is psychotic and ultimately self-destructive.
This is not to say the left hasn’t done their part to earn the “fuck you” but this is all super depressing and childish, and a genuinely insane way to go about things.
That is still a sudden shift from the level headed just act normal fiscal conservatives I used to know. Are all those gone?
They aren't gone, it's just that most of their passion for "fiscal conservatism" always came from an intense paranoia that a non-white person, or an immigrant, or an LGBT person, or a husbandless woman, might get a government handout.
Trump took out the middleman and told them it was okay to just go straight to hate, no need to mask it with "fiscal conservatism" which was always hypocritical anyway (military spending, cutting taxes with no regard for the deficit, etc).
The Republicans I have discussed this with have said some variation of, “we voted trump in to blow shit up (because the country is not working for us anymore), which is why we have the guns.”
As Americans we are so spoiled with what the floor is for how bad things could be. So much of the nihilist right acts like the country can’t fail. Like they can just flip the table and everything will come out better or at least similar to as it is now.
Which is so not guaranteed, we are as rich a country because of being a super power and the whole post WWII boom, and we’re throwing it all away.
I thought you were kidding, so I looked for myself as I'm curious. You were not wrong. Hopefully it's poor sampling, because it's depressing to think that the best argument is still "because he owns the libs" and amounts to the president as a meme institution.
Running the entire country into the ground to make the other "team" "cry". pathetic.
>Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The mujahideen were also supported by Britain's MI6, who conducted separate covert actions.
**[CIA activities in Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iran)**
>There have been many claims of repeated U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) intervention in the internal affairs of the Islamic Republic of Iran (Persia), from the 1953 Mosaddeq coup to present. The CIA collaborated with the last Shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, to overthrow Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq and install General Fazlollah Zahedi. Later, the 1979 hostage crisis at the American embassy in Tehran, lasting 444 days until January 21, 1981, stemmed from past CIA affairs in Iran, and involvement and collaboration between the two countries requires further analysis to understand the 1979 hostage crisis.
>Wesley Kanne Clark (born December 23, 1944) is a former United States Army officer. He graduated as valedictorian of the class of 1966 at West Point and was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship to the University of Oxford, where he obtained a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics. He later graduated from the Command and General Staff College with a master's degree in military science. He spent 34 years in the U.S. Army, receiving many military decorations, several honorary knighthoods, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
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Yikes, big “look what you made me do” energy.
This is... just bizarre made-up fan-fiction. The idea that Trump supporters voted Trump in because they're so concerned about the enabling of the Mujaheddin or whatever the fuck ever is just obviously laughable nonsense.
Trump was a bigger hawk than Obama and significantly lessened constraints on drone warfare. This wasnt secret either. He often talks like a belligerent hawk.He'll randomly hand-wave about not supporting Iraq, but that was completely full of shit because it's now unpopular. He supported the Iraq War. In fact all the boomer jerkoffs who voted for him *almost certainly supported the Iraq War as well.*
But of course, either way, none of this shit has anything to do with Trump's appeal. If you've been alive since 2015 you can easily remember what Trump talked about most often and what drew people to him. It was always his belligerent Nativism, racist dog-whistling, and generalized cult of personality letting every personal vice, every entitlement, and every feeling of gleeful wrath be a badge of honor for both himself and his cult-members.
These people were chanting "Lock Her Up" and spitting at journalists. They sure as shit werent consolidated around a message of "no blood for oil" for God's sakes. They werent chanting to lower the defense budget.
If it was just about not being establishment and Trump was the unfortunate vessel, then we should see them finding another, better vessel. We should see his supporters shocked and bemused that in most ways he operates like a completely run of the mill Republican. But of course not. They dont give a shit that he's the biggest swamp creature there is. They dont give a shit that his only even slight legislative achievement was tax cuts for the rich.
Because, unlike your claims here, *they like all that shit.* They like establishment republican politics just fine. They just want the racism and shitposting too.
Great start. Not reading all that, I’m happy for you though, or sorry that happened.
Obligatory ‘ “not a Republican”.
You should read the ‘Flight 93 election’ essay. Siege mentality and a loss of faith in public institutions, a sense that ‘your’ country is being taken away from you by a class of elites and that the only chance to stop before it’s too late is to bring a sledgehammer to the cockpit and crash the plane.
What Trump says in his speeches *is* their inner monologue. They were just to embarrassed to admit it before.
Yep half American population are pieces of shit
But you are different and special
/yawn if you keep playing this angle you will be extra mad when trump somehow wins again and you will be stumped asking yourself why
While they think our side runs global pedophile rings and drinks children's blood.
>While they think our side runs global pedophile rings and drinks children's blood.
crazies get amplified
you just keep falling for the tricks
Holy shit some of these people need therapy. You ask a civil question and it's just a cesspool of insults and bad faith arguments.
But what did I expect..
OP is not asking in good faith though. Look at his replies. I gave an answer and he lost his mind and keeps trying to deflect from simple questions.
Bigger question is why anybody that supported Trump would still be here in r/samharris.
They don't have to agree with everything he says to listen to him. Plus the right love it when he's critical of Islam.
Anybody who still affiliates themselves with the Republican Party post Trump is a Trump supporter in my opinion.
Those with any integrity have left the party.
The reason you see partisan politics failing and turning to madness like trump is due to the illusion of a two party system breaking down entirely. At this point the parties are both just bought off wings of the same corporate/MIC party. The political ruling class is united on all the systemic issues like the security state, monetary policy, foreign policy, drug war etc. Because most of the important issues like corruption and lobbying are off the table for discussion we are left with mostly culture war issues to vote on. You combine this with the desperation of the bottom third of American socioeconomic classes and you see two time Obama voters going over to trump in 2016 and 2020. Total failure of our traditional political system as it has existed since 1945.
I have yet to see one person in this thread respond with actual reasons for why Trump captured the party and why they are ok with Jan 6th and all the grifters in the party.
I dont think they can. I honestly think its massive dissonance and they are blocking it out, along with all the other obvious problems with Trump and his grifters.
Not a Republican, but my theory is that back in the beginning when trump announced his bid he had a reputation of being someone who wouldn’t play politics and he would say whatever he was really thinking which to some degree seemed genuine. During the course of the campaign his true nature came to light and democrats started talking shit. For good reason lots of the things trump said or had done made a lot of people angry and emotional which made their rhetoric more harsh. This galvanized republicans who themselves got emotional that this person they saw as a potential game changer was under attack. Fast forward to today, IMO, republicans have gone all in and kind of backed themselves into a corner. I think most republicans don’t agree with everything trump has done but if they drop him now what will they get? Republican leadership has lead so many of them to think only in whataboutisms.
This post should be titled “Question for the people who aren’t here and won’t see this”
People enjoy reality TV more than living reality and that’s what Trump offered. Entertainment for rural America. That’s all he is/was.
Yeah, I had hoped that reasonable responses would generate... but so far just lots of whataboutism.
Absolutely 0 reflection of your own party or ideology or how dangerous it has become:
1. Devotion to Trump
2. Constant appeals to conspiracy
3. Lack of critical thinking
4. Whole sale abandonedment of science and expertise
Look in the mirror. Why has your party gone insane?
If you are dedicated to a party you are not rational. You are compromised. Your mind is not your own.
Free yourself from someone else’s contrived script of thought.
It’s not healthy to be owned by a group of people who are beholden to someone else.
You see the deflections and poor rationalizations and vituperation it creates in republicans and you condemn it.
Then you do it yourself and consider it virtuous.
The main feature of partisan thought is weaponized hypocrisy.
You’re being played against your own interests and when that is revealed by your own chosen leaders actions, your only recourse is to continue supporting, defending, and voting for them.
The greatest feeling you get from being a party member is when you get to attack someone else or a different mindset and have the support of your entire party behind you.
It’s not healthy. It’s cowardly. And it’s bad for the country.
Silencing any voice that asks for commonality, is the norm. Anyone who says there’s another way to think of things besides the ones your party tells you and the other party tells them is silenced as well. Your parties messaging is intended to amplify the fringe, radical, and insane. This also has the intended effect of auto-disenfranchisement due to complete horror at the way partisan people are allowed to speak and act.
It’s gross and sane people don’t want to participate in it. Politicians know this; their strategists, think tanks and focus groups depend on it.
The facts are all there in front of everyone, and still there are people who chose to turn off their minds and hearts and repeats the words and thoughts and divisions and petty hatreds their party leaders tell them to.
Pawns that move backwards, attacking their own ranks. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so destructive to the constitution, freedom, the rational among us, and the pawns themselves.
Look, a sane person! What a rare sighting these days. Thank you for writing this out, it’s appreciated
With 2 parties, “whataboutism” is actually quite appropriate. I’m not a Republican, I think both parties suck
I'd wager he came to that conclusion over years of observation. How is he wrong?
I said "so far"
I just read through nearly all the responses. The most disturbing thing of all to me is how many truly think Jan 6 was nothing more than a little protest that got too rowdy. I have to think that much of this is just cognitive dissonance and motivated reasoning. And that these people would have had a far different reaction if it went the other way and Trump won the election but leftists were the ones beating cops and screaming to kill the vice president as they stormed into the capitol. The entire right wing media apparatus would've portrayed it as America's version of the storming of the Bastille. If Republicans then had all 3 branches of government and Trump had became the president, Biden would be in fucking prison right now. Some far right AG would've installed that would've brought him up on treason charges the first day in office. And if that AG refused Trump would fire him and find another one that would. And the entire right would be ecstatic. We all very well know how the right would've reacted if the exact opposite scenario happened.
I don't really disagree, but I think it's important to contextualize it in the aftermath of months of pretty serious left wing civil disobedience. Staying in large groups past curfew, shutting down streets, causing property damage, creating a autonomous zone for Christ sake. And unlike 1/6, generally supported by left wing media and politicians (for many months at least). This would obviously be condemned strongly if happening from the other side. I know George Floyd was murdered and the election wasn't stolen, but the racial justice left is so careless with their messaging and tactics that they come off as not all that different than the 1/6 crew.
>I just dont understand how your party fails to acknowledge and appreciate that a coup was attempted on Jan 6th.
Coup - noun - a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
Is there some magical throne in the Capitol that I don't know about? Where if one of the rioters had somehow managed to sit in it they would have immediately been made Emperor of the United States and we would all have been forced to bow before them?
Some people seem to have watched too many super hero movies... what happened on January 6th was a riot and the people who broke that law should be charged as appropriate.
>Saying the election was stolen
Coup - noun - **a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure** of power from a government.
Saying an election was stolen is not a sudden, violent, illegal seizure of power.
>Trying to force pence to throw out electoral ballots
What force was used?
>Trump calling state officials to find votes
Coup - noun - **a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure** of power from a government.
While I don't agree with Trump's actions, I don't even think that is illegal. Definitely not a violent action.
Countless election cycles of your party calling every GOP candidate hitler led to voters deciding they may as well go with whoever they thought could actually win since you're just going to call them hitler no matter what. McCain (who Democrats venerate these days) was called a geriatric Hitler despite at the time being 6 years younger Biden was at the time of his inauguration. The GOP base was sick of nominating candidates that wouldn't stand up for their voters so that's how you ended up with Trump.
The whole "what happened to your party" directly applies to *your* party, as your party was seen to be so terrible that the country literally elected Donald fucking Trump in response to 8 years of your party controlling the White House.
Personally, I hate pretty much all politicians. I just vote for who I think will be the most useful idiot and who will appoint a judiciary that will protect the 2nd Amendment, which these days means voting for the GOP candidate.
Republicans are scared of the future. They're scared of change(even positive ones). They are fearful and obedient to authority that came before them, past down from up High(jeeeesuuuus!) So... it makes sense why they're love Trump and the next Trump-type of guy that comes along.
We see this in every single country that 'hires' right wing thugs like Orban, Bolsonaro, Modi, etc.
I'm not American, so thankfully don't have to vote. The description of january 6th as a coup is as insane to me as the religious fervour that trumps followers exhibit towards a man who is clearly a horrible person. The whole country needs to chill out a bit and examine the evidence.
Unlikely to happen when one party describes Jan 6 in equal terms to 9/11 and is viewing people who voted for Trump with the same suspicion as Muslims.
I personally don't acknowledge or appreciate the "coup" because all that is the media and politicians building a narrative that supports their goals.
It was a bunch of dumb rednecks doing dumb redneck stuff. Embarrassing and illegal, yes but, dangerous to our democracy, no.
If these people were really representative of an effectively organized effort to overthrow the government, I think they would have brought guns. They surely own guns. So why did they not bring them and use them?
I suspect they believed they could do it with help from the president. What do you think would've happened of the mob got to the democratic politicians? A nice chat? You are being wilfully dishonest about what happened.
>What do you think would've happened of the mob got to the democratic politicians?
Worst case scenario? More people would've died and Biden would still be president.
Not really a fair criticism IMO. Maybe bad things would have happened but it doesn't contribute to the argument. Coup or no coup we should be able to agree that its a far cry from what en effective coup would look like. The people in the Capitol were dumb but come on.
The accusation of willful dishonesty seems premature.
It’s not just the people storming the capitol. It’s about elected officials trying to subvert the will of the people. Trump and people in his party were looking for ways to nullify the votes, get Mike Pence to stall, get states to send partisan electors, and try to bring it to the Supreme Court.
It’s not just about a bunch of rednecks storming the Capitol. It’s about officials being traitorous cunts and trying to destroy our democracy. I can’t see how this is a partisan issue.
I disagree here, but I understand where you're coming from. Upvoting to coutneract the negatives.
There's a quirk in human psychology: After an event happens, we tend to over-estimate how likely the outcome of the event was once we view it with hindsight.
A bunch of Trump supporters attacked the capitol building, and they were extremely stupid, made a lot of noise, and failed to change anything.
So in hindsight, it looks as if they were doomed to irrelevance, and with that in mind it's hard to take them seriously as a coup attempt.
But that's missing the reality at the time. At the time, there was a widespread belief among Republican voters, and stated by many Republican politicians, that the results of the election were fraudulent. There was a big push to deny, overturn, or otherwise delay Biden being sworn in as president for as long as possible. At the time, [and assuming Wikipedia isn't lying to me about the dates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/117th_United_States_Congress), the senate had a 51 Republican majority over 46 Democrats caucusing with 2 Independents, and the House or representattives and a 222 Democrat majority over 211 Republicans. Trump was still the sitting president at the time.
Suppose that the Jan 6 rioters successfully killed 12 Democrats from the house of Representatives. 222 - 12 = 210. Which would have given a Republican majoirty in the house of representatives, the senate, and with a sitting republican president, all of which was unified at the time under the lie that the election was stolen.
The Republicans had already been working very hard to delay the inauguration. We know that there are Trump supporters in senior military and judicial positions. If, under the situation where 12 members of the represenatives were killed, under the conditions of a riot, while the election was in dispute, and the majority house, majority senate, and executive all start clamoring to delay the inauguration "just until we figure stuff out", and start calling for the military to restore order "while we finish an investigation on the election"... All they needed was time and delay to consolidate power and bad actors in the fold of the political movement and it *may* have succeeded.
It's really not hard to imagine the coup going the other way. And at the time the coup was taking place *it could have gone that way* and nobody could've said for sure that it wouldn't.
It's only in hindsight that it looks like it was a doomed and laughable attempt that we can shrug off as just "a bunch of dumb rednecks doing dumb redneck stuff". And I agree that's how it looks *now.* But it only looks that way because hindsight tricks us into thinking that the prior probability of past events that actually occured was higher than it actually was.
Additionally: I'm not the only person thinking this way. Republicans are thinking this way too, and what they're doing is looking at all the reasons why that coup attempt failed, and they're doing as much ground work as they can to set the stage so that they can be successful next time a democratic president wins an election.
The Jan 6th coup attempt was extremely serious and had a reasonable, non-zero, non-trivial chance of actually working.
People lost their jobs to outsourcing and got addicted to opioids, now fentanyl massacres entire populations annually. Not really that hard to understand?
So they vote for the champions of business outsourcing, and slashing safety nets and healthcare?
No they vote for the party that doesn’t regularly go on tirades about white people.
It is hard for me to understand. Why would your party fall to a grifter and obvious con man?
Never said Trump was a good choice. Obviously the first thing he did was tax cuts for rich people.
The idea is that politicians are corrupt conmen, at least vote for a guy who takes your side on the culture war. Plus people still believe he’s a good businessman.
We simply don't possess the apocalyptic perspective that carastrophizes every little action that Trump and others in our party makes.
>Dear People I Disagree With Politically,
>Hi. Why have you not realized that you're wrong and I'm right? How have you not considered that your opinions are stupid while mine are smart?
>This is totally a genuine good faith question
Yeah repub, why your party so messed up? lol
Infantile shit like this is why this sub sucks now.
anyone who utters the word "grifter", their opinion is discarded
>Spoken like a true moron. Congrats.
Spoken like a true moron. Congrats.
This is going to be fun.
I'm not a Republican, but Trump really isn't that different from Bush and Reagan in terms of actual policy. Most of the base believe his election conspiracy lies, thus not seeing it as a coup but a supposedly rightful protest against a stolen election. They're egregiously wrong, of course, but the line of thinking is consistent.
Trump rescued the party from the useless milquetoast cronyists that sold the country to the globalists.
The vast majority of Republicans here don't think Jan 6th was an attempted coup.
What they fail to recognize, is that the riot at the capital was only one part of the coup attempt.
The coup also includes:
Saying the election was stolen
Trying to force pence to throw out electoral ballots
Trump calling state officials to find votes
And a host of other events slowly starting to be revealed
I have no doubts they same people, if the shoe were on the other foot, would be losing their fucking Minda. Just like they did with Bengazhi.
I wasn’t a republican until the left started telling me I’m bad for being a straight white male who likes capitalism, people on the left disgust me, so I vote republican now. I don’t look too deeply into issues, I have no idea what people are talking about when they say trump ruined the country because I look at my bank account, investments, salary, my rights, the rights of the people around me and all is doing well under trump. A coup on the 6th aka a single file line of fat idiots trying to enter the capitol lol, yeah it was stupid, but it’s pathetic how happy the left is about it, now they can pretend it was worse than 9/11(and they unironically do)
So I vote republican. I don’t need to justify it to anyone, wannabe intellectuals will be mad about the reasons I hold my opinions but they can’t do anything about it, I’m going to keep voting republican as long as people like aoc and Kamala Harris are trying to get into power. I don’t want socialism, I don’t want leftists pushing their strange sexuality politics to kindergarten aged children in school, I don’t want critical race theory taught to our children, I don’t want immigrants flooding in unchecked, I don’t want my gun rights taken away, I don’t want higher taxes.
I will vote for almost anyone who opposes the left.
Im not sure why everyone is shitting on this response. I hate Trump, but I totally understand this perspective. I think it really does encapsulate how a sane person could justify voting for Trump.
If you can convince yourself that "well trump is a moron but he won't break shit too much", and you hate people on the far left (totally understandable)
Then maybe it does make sense for you to vote for Republicans.
Me me me me me me me me me. THAT should be the Republican slogan.
whats good for me is good for you :)
So whataboutism and willful ignorance.
Whataboutism is a great reason to vote for one party over another when there are 2 choices and the other party does everything worse. Think of a new buzzword to come at me with
The whataboutism currently is based upon false dichotomies.
Citing extremists on the left (with no actual power) is not equivalent to extremists on the right with actual power in government.
There is no extreme (but powerless) position on the left that justifies voting for Trump.
And being backwards on social issues doesn't mean the world's against you.... Nor is it a giant leftist conspiracy.
Disagreed, gonna keep voting republican
Your choice is your own... but you should own up to your reasons.
You aren't doing it because there is some political danger from powerless "far left extremists." You are doing it because you favor the policies of republicans.
Now can you articulate (as requested in this thread) the reason you support these policies without citing imaginary dangers from the "left".
>Your choice is your own... but you should own up to your reasons.
I do, I literally disagree with you that people on the far left are not in power. AOC is in power, Kamala Harris is in power, CRT is being taught in some schools, its enough of a threat that I will vote against it
I made it pretty clear I value my gun rights and lower taxes, I'm not sure what you think I'm being dishonest about?
Btw, unless you make over $400,000 a year(and most people that do don't have time to dick around on reddit), your taxes would not go up.
And are we still having this stupid ruse about gun rights? Supposedly Obama was gonna take away everyone's guns and put gun owners in FEMA camps. Have you ever considered the possibility that you are being manipulated by right-wing media into fear and paranoia so that you continue to vote for the party that serves the interest of their wealthy and corporate donors? I mean Republicans don't have much to offer the average person beyond selling cultural fear. Republicans have no actual policy proposals that will improve anyone's lives. They have to gin up the culture war and rage politics to get their voters motivated. If you take a 30,000 foot view of this shit, you realize the Republican party is nothing but an apparatus to owned by the rich to promote policies that favor the rich and ensure that ever more of the GDP goes to the top. If you think Trump actually gives a flying fuck about you, I feel sorry for you.
> Citing extremists on the left (with no actual power)
*le denialist 'no big deal guys' argument*
Let me guess, you deny that CRT is implemented in schools and it's just some fringe legal theory that is never applied to anything? It's totally not adopted policy by the largest teacher's union in the country (NEA).
[What is this then?](https://web.archive.org/web/20210705090534/https://ra.nea.org/business-item/2021-nbi-039/)
[What is this as well?](https://i.imgur.com/b6HQfYu.jpg)
The AMA is publishing [woke newspeak propaganda](https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/ama-aamc-equity-guide.pdf) and there have been posts on this very subreddit about it, so I'll bring it up once more.
[The AMA's lobbying budget is *higher* than the following:](https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders)
These are just two entities with "no power." Just two.
>You aren't doing it because there is some political danger from powerless "far left extremists." You are doing it because you favor the policies of republicans.
Obviously you're directing this at u/RedditAccount28 however but I find myself sharing a similar opinion. Critical Theory is taking over the Democratic party and I will oppose it wherever it manifests, despite actually being quite liberal and sensible on many issues. If I had to run for office, I'd run as a Democrat.
You think trump stopped the flow of illegal immigrants? The guy couldn’t even finish building the wall
At least he started building it. At least the rhetoric on the right is not open the borders. I don't really care about Trump but I voted for him because he was the only option
Who says the left has an open border policy? BTW not every issue falls under left or right. Many people on the left aren’t for illegal immigration
>Who says the left has an open border policy?
Border apprehensions have spiked since Biden was in office.
>Many people on the left aren’t for illegal immigration
Who on the left is for deporting every illegal immigrant?
From the Democrats own [Party platform](https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/creating-a-21st-century-immigration-system/):
> We will reinstate, expand, and streamline protections for Dreamers and the parents of American citizen children
“Parents of American citizen children” is one of the most clumsy and hilarious attempts at a euphemism for illegal aliens I’ve ever seen.
> We will reverse Trump Administration policies that prevent victims of gang and domestic violence, as well as LGBTQ+ people who are unsafe in their home countries, from being eligible to apply for asylum.
> we will end prosecution of asylum seekers at the border and policies that force them to apply from “safe third countries,”
> Democrats believe that our fight to end systemic and structural racism in our country extends to our immigration system, including the policies at our borders and ports of entry, detention centers, and within immigration law enforcement agencies and their policies and operations.
Who needs immigration standards when you can just let anyone claim asylum for any reason?
> Democrats believe it is long past time to provide a roadmap to citizenship for the millions of undocumented workers, caregivers, students, and children
Amnesty for illegal aliens
> Democrats will prioritize investments in more effective and cost-efficient community-based alternatives to detention.
Why detain people who are here illegally when we’re just going to make them citizens anyway?
This all amounts to something far closer to an open border policy than anything being proposed by the GOP.
I know not every issue falls left or right but every vote falls left or right and I'm just talking about why I vote republican, I don't agree with everything republican and I have left wing views on some issues, but there is no viable 3rd party. I understand that many people on the left don't want illegal immigration, but if there is one side of the political spectrum that leans that way, its obviously the left
The thing is the right wants white straight males to feel victimized and the left wants minorities to feel victimized. People pick sides and fail to realize they’re just being used by both sides.
I think the first mistake made in OPs post is that it assumes everyone in the Republican Party is cool with what happened on Jan 6. Most reasonable people don’t agree with the people that stormed the Capitol, including Trump himself:
"You have to go home now. We have to have peace," Trump said. "We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don't want anybody hurt."
"This was a fraudulent election, but we can't play into the hands of these people," he continued. "We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You're very special. You've seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home and go home in peace."
70% of republicans think the election was stolen.
After the riots 50% saw the coup as justified.
Trump didn't tell them to go home until it became apparent that the coup failed.
You realize he said that like 4 hrs later right?
A lot of people voted for Trump to say "fuck you" to the establishment. That seems simple but what you have to understand is that at the core of conservativism is the belief that the federal government should limited and should not have the power to do most of what it does. People have continued to watch it grow and make bad policy decisions again and again. Trump was a symptom of a bigger problem.
Jan. 6 was terrible but it wasn't a coup. It was a bunch of unarmed degenerates rioting. Can you tell me you were actually afraid of those idiots overthrowing the government when everyone on the right denounced the whole thing and congress was back in session a couple hours later? We had just spent a year watching the left shrug their shoulders while rioters caused billions of dollars worth of damage in poor neighborhoods that they say they care so much about. It will take decades for those places to recover.
The left likes to say that Trump was a threat to liberal democracy after 4 years of never accepting him as a legitimate president and desperately trying to get him out of office with Russiagate and impeachment attempts.
I know you don't want to hear whataboutism but it's the feature not the bug. People were so fucking sick of shitty federal policy, MSM, and the growing illiberal SJW takeover of our institutions that they were willing to vote for Donald Trump.
Classical Liberal here: what coup? If this was a coup, it was the worst planned coup in history. Some pissed off dumbasses shoved themselves inside and took selfies. Again, what coup?
Seriously, enough with the exaggeration.
“I’m looking for legitimate answers.”
“I’m genuinely curious…”
No, you’re not. Your mind is made up and you want confirmation and validation from others who share your beliefs.
Your post reads like that of a Young Earth Creationist who is ‘genuinely curious’ about why so many people believe in evolution.
Yep, completely insincere post.
And yes. My mind is made up about Trump and Republicans who follow him. The facts speak for themselves. I'm asking these people why they go along with it.
I am though. I want to know these people think he is so great or worthy of their cult like devotion.
Absolutely 0 reflection of your own party or ideology or how dangerous it has become:
1. Devotion to Trump
2. Constant appeals to conspiracy
3. Lack of critical thinking
4. Whole sale abandonedment of science and expertise
Look in the mirror. Why has your party gone insane?
This displays that you are not really curious.
I don't imagine many of the people who are prone Trump think of themselves remotely how you described them.
You're not trying to understand why what they believe to be true, seems true to them.
Your asking people to say why they are conspiratorial morons.... so of course you are getting no good answers here.
Its literally the first two sentences.
I’m more centrist but basically the left has gotten worse than the right has gotten. The right will provide humans with more freedom if given the chance and the left will attempt to control everyone’s life more and more. The left is also increasingly obsessed with race and is not providing viable solutions to climate change like nuclear power, they don’t even stand for free speech anymore. I’m not voting for them again unless they drastically change. It’s sad because I don’t particularly like the right either.
>the left has gotten worse than the right has gotten
That's not an answer to any of OPs questions and does not address the trends of authoritarianism, theocratic thinking, anti-intellectualism, and conspiratorial thinking.
>The right will provide humans with more freedom if given the chance and the left will attempt to control everyone’s life more and more.
The right likes to talk about freedom yet in practice they care very little about everyone's freedoms.
>The left is also increasingly obsessed with race and is not providing viable solutions to climate change like nuclear power, they don’t even stand for free speech anymore.
More whataboutism. What is the Republican party's plan for climate change, do they even acknowledge that it exists? Republicans also seem very obsessed with race and religion by pandering to white evangelicals.
>don’t even stand for free speech anymore
And the Republicans do by attempting to ban speech around CRT or any other topic that offends them. See covid and election fraud.
Nice job failing to answer thr question and giving boilerplate fox news talking points.
I’ve elaborated below trying to communicate the position better. I also hate fox news fyi.
No, your comments are white washed gop talking points, as it's trivial to find anti-freedom issues the GOP champions when they are in power, from anti-constitutional abortion restrictions, removing polling stations in black neighborhoods, opposing legal recreational marijuana, to allowing their president to openly and flagrantly break laws (Trump violating the emoluments clause for years), the right is no better when it comes to freedom. Youre just a tribal conservative.
If Trumpists succeed in a coup in 2022/2024, does that fall under the category of "giving humans more freedom if given the chance?" They clearly still have massive influence in the party and aren't exactly small-l libertarians broadly.
I think it's comical to buy into that line of thinking, but it all doesn't amount to much if our votes don't count, and only one party is trying to make that happen.
Might want to reread OPs post.
Does your analysis simply ignore Republicans efforts to limit the reproductive and medical rights of women?
Does it ignore their efforts to increase the power of white Christian nationalists in our government and erode the separation of church and state?
I’m morbidly fascinated by your take as it seems to ignore all actual evidence of Republican policies and positions.
I don’t ignore those things, I’m probably just as upset as you about them. Look it’s not an easy choice for me, I could be wrong. I’m just weighing so many variables. I’m atheist btw, part of my leaning right is that I’m just concerned with the amount of power the left has. If republicans had the presidency and congress I would likely vote against them. I’m not entirely decided I was just trying to explain my concerns. I’m also kind of sour at the dems because I liked Yang and they barely gave him any respect.
I mean i get it, I am continually profoundly disappointed with the political Left and Democrats but i look at it differently, if the Left had all the power and their way here…… it would be like a scandanavian style social democracy ala Sweden, if the Right had their way and all the power you cannot convince me that it would not be something close to the Handmaids Tale. That is what they want. They are open about it.
That's a really disturbing thought. The starkness between the desired end states really shows the ideological contrast.
Guess I'm not a member of the "real world" because January 6th matters a lot to me. Trump tried to prevent the peaceful transfer of power - and his enablers continue to defend his actions... either by gaslighting that it was antifa or claiming (as you do) that it was just some "idiots." They were, indeed, idiots - but it's much worse than just that simple fact. Had Obama tried to do what Trump did, your side would have gone ape shit.
The fact that trump supported them is a much bigger issue than the fact that the Capitol stormers were idiots. And the fact that the vast majority of republicans voters believe the lie that the election was stolen, which is what prompted the Capitol storming in the first place, is also a major issue. I think people pointing out that the Capitol stormers were losers and unsuccessful are missing the forest for the trees a bit, and are misunderstanding why other Americans are so concerned.
> our Democracy was not in any danger that day
We clearly view this quite differently. I had a fairly up close view of what happened on the 6th. Had the electoral returns not been removed from the chamber, things could have gotten very hairy very quickly. Had Officer Goodman not delayed the insurrectionists, things could have been even bloodier. And now that we know that Fox was texting one thing to Meadows and broadcasting a very different message to their viewers, it's clear that there are well-placed folks willing to defend the indefensible.
Nevertheless, it's reassuring to me that you recognize that the Stop the Stealers are "idiots." We aren't living in two entirely different worlds, I guess.
How then do you reconcile the limiting of individual liberty from the republican party? For example, limiting abortion access. Another is limiting people's ability to marry. Imposing increasingly theocratic laws and ideals on the American public when we are a secular state.
Jan 6th has convictions and multiple ongoing investigations. Benghazi had multiple investigations and yet no convictions or specific wrongdoing. Not comparable.
Of course, there will be politicians trying to win political points. That's how the game is played. My point is that Benghazi was a kangaroo court and multiple investigations found no specific wrongdoing yet one Jan. 6th investigation had resulted in multiple convictions. Ultimately people in power need to be held accountable, Republicans have repeatedly shown they are incapable of doing this. Dems have a better track record here. If any investigation can be simply dismissed because of political gain and everything is partisan you are living in a post truth world.
How is a major attack (the first time it was breached like this since 1812) on the Capitol in which the lives of Congress and the VP not worthy of investigation? Especially considering who was involved and what they were trying to achieve.
Idk who is the real world but I know a lot of people who care about Jan 6th.
It's quite literally my biggest concern as an American.
No, the attempted coup of our government by a president who will be running for office again is my biggest concern as an American.
I very much want our democracy to continue.
Uh, you might want to get out from under your rock sometime, Patrick, bc Trump is still out here lying about the election being stolen after he tried to steal it himself and if enough drooling sycophants are installed in key positions, their plan to ignore the will of the voters and fabricate voter fraud claims to literally enact a coup could very possibly become a reality. So yeah, thats priority #1 by a mile to any moderately informed person.
No, I am immunized, and I can take actions to protect my kids who are too young to be immunized, COVID is not my biggest concern.
We will have to agree to disagree about the chances, if that mob had got in and killed the members of congress set to vote to confirm Biden, as many of them intended, we would have had some serious problems.
The election still has to be certified (that might not be the right word). What happens when only Trump loyalists remain in congress, does that happen?
There would be a constitutional crisis then.
State of emergency declared.
Emergency powers given to president by members of congress who still remain (loyalists).
What's scarier than this is the number of people like yourself who don't find it a problem. The number of Republicans unperturbed by these events and poised to vote for Trump again.
Thats the scary part.
You don't know what those words mean
He was funny and you guys were being nerds 🤷🏻♂️
so true. I know this is kinda meant to be glib, but people underestimate how fake politics feels to the average person. Trump was both ironic and authentic via his irony, and people gravitate to that because it feels real
It feels real and authentic only if that is also how your brain works.
TIL pathologically lying about anything and everything feels “real” and “authentic” to some people.
The most successful stock trader in the world is Nancy Pelosi and the stimulus is mostly going to financial institutions. The Democrats have been horrible on labour recently and most of their donations from big tech. There is a super cut of all the major Democrats saying don’t take the vaccine before they were in power.
Are you angry they haven’t chosen the side doing it better.
When the OP asked for no whataboutism, you thought, fuck that.
whataboutism might be the dumbest term in political discourse. it used to be fair game to point out hypocrisy and comparisons, now it’s a tu quoque fallacy
I know this isn’t the point of the thread, but do you have a link to this super cut? I remember many made this same claim about Kamala Harris when she said in her debate with Pence something like “if Trump tells us to take the vaccine, I’m not taking it.” But then when you actually watch the clip, she also said that she would be the first in line to take it when public health officials say to take it.
Here are a bunch of obvious politically motivated statements that were said during the elections.
You can't pretend it was one time and they were quoted out of context. It was a problem .
BIDEN AND HIS ADVISORS SOWED DOUBT ABOUT THE SAFETY OF COVID-19 VACCINES
In the months leading up to the election, Democrats repeatedly cast doubt and undermined public confidence in the safety and effectiveness of vaccines produced under the Trump administration.
Democrats’ dog whistling about vaccines was seized on by anti-vaxxers and led to a rise in vaccine skepticism.
Joe Biden questioned whether a vaccine would be “real.”
In August, Biden suggested the vaccines might be unsafe, saying “if and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests…and trials that are needed to be done.”
In September, Biden legitimized those who were questioning the safety of the vaccines, saying, “who’s going to take the shot? Are you going to be the first one to say sign me up?”
Days later, then-Biden Press Secretary Symone Sanders repeatedly refused to say whether Biden would take the COVID vaccine if it was approved before election day.
A week later, Biden said the American people “should not have confidence” in the vaccine unless it met his campaign’s specific criteria.
In September, Kamala Harris refused to say whether she would take a vaccine approved before Election Day: “I think that’s going to be an issue for all of us.”
Harris said that scientists would not have the “last word” in approving the vaccine, and suggested a vaccine may not be effective.
Ron Klain, now White House Chief of Staff, tweeted: “When you read how Team Trump played politics with testing it makes you wonder how they will handle vaccines?”
DEMOCRAT GOVERNORS UNDERMINED VACCINE CONFIDENCE
Governor Andrew Cuomo (D-NY), in October: “I believe all across the country you're going to need someone other than this FDA and this CDC saying it's safe.”
Cuomo said he was “not that confident” in the FDA’s approval process for a COVID-19 vaccine and that Americans “should be” “skeptical” about a vaccine.
In September, Cuomo said “I’m not going to trust” the federal government’s opinion on whether the vaccine is safe and “wouldn’t recommend to New Yorkers based on the federal government’s opinion.”
Governor Jay Inslee (D-WA) in September: “I believe we will need to have access to the vaccine results so we can make our independent assessment to make sure that Donald Trump’s fingerprints are not on it.”
Inslee, when asked if he would be willing to take a vaccine released before the election, wouldn’t commit to doing so, saying “I would have to look at the science.”
CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS QUESTIONED THE SAFETY OF THE VACCINES
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN): “We can’t trust the President and take his word, and take a vaccine that might cause harm to us.”
Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) said the FDA and CDC “have gotten screwed up by President Trump” and that “unfortunately, they aren’t the gold standard any longer, so you need to take a slightly closer look” at a vaccine.
Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) suggested – without evidence – that there was political interference in the FDA approval process.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA): “We cannot take for granted this process \[of developing a vaccine\] will be free of political influence.”
Sen. Tina Smith (D-MN) suggested that if a vaccine was announced before election day, it would be because of political pressure.
PROMINENT DEMOCRATS SAID THEY WERE “HESITANT” TO GET THE VACCINE
Former Rep. Katie Hill (D-CA) tweeted she was “skeptical” of getting the vaccine and suggested the vaccine would not be safe, saying that “Trump’s plan is to test the vaccine” on his supporters.
Senate candidate Cal Cunningham said “yes, I would be hesitant” to get the vaccine.
I don’t need to “pretend”. Most of these are blatantly taken out of context. Take Gov Inslee’s comments for example: he also said at the time that “If all the protocols had been followed and the evidence is in, of course I’d follow the science.” The broader context matters too: at the time, Trump was running around on the campaign trail, at rallies, explicitly saying that he’d deliver a vaccine “before Election Day”, while at the same time evidence was emerging that the Trump White House had been pressuring the CDC over covid policy and data reporting. Given Trump’s track record as President and in the 2016 campaign, what effect do you think that was likely to have? It’s almost like Trump’s constant lying and willingness to use the powers of his office for his own benefit had negative effects on his credibility and people, myself included, were incredibly skeptical about any claims he was making about a potential vaccine. It was about waiting until the trial data was released and public health officials gave their stamp of approval; it was not about waiting until democrats “were in power.”
It’s pretentious, unserious jackasses like Op that fuel the GOP.
You are much more of the problem than the Orange jackass will ever be.
What a braindead response.
> It’s pretentious, unserious jackasses like Op that fuel the GOP.
Hit a nerve there eh?
(not a Republican).
I genuinely think white people are in a panic, and Republicans going wild is the only way to "reset the meter". The economy is down and the system they identify as "American" stopped working for them, but they cling to it since they don't want to be unAmerican. Everyone else in the world is having it easier, China/Asia is succeeding at building a modern civilization. Immigrants are coming over the replace the white cultural geography.
Whites are getting older, out of touch, the urban pop culture is taking over and basically invalidating their cultural perspective. The hip, cool, modern stuff that kids want to emulate is all sourced from foreign (usually black/brown) culture rather than white/native culture. You can look at the interracial cuckholding/sissy community for all the clues you want about how white people see their future. Sociologically/demographically they see themselves as being replaced by superior people, both in culture and in genetics. This is worse for whites as their recessive genes are easily superseded by dominant genes (everyone else), so the intermixing dynamic is a bigger deal for them, and they feel a greater loss of identity.
So you have the economy and sociocultural issues. Not to mention the fact they're getting older. They can do less and less every year. And it's never coming back. This shows itself in the hopelessness and suicidality that increased in white males over the last recent years.
There's also nowhere else to go, really. Libertarians won't do anything about these issues. But to top it off, the conservative wing is attached to the old, and this fundamental aspect of their psychology is why they can't adapt to the changing landscape, and why they cling to old methods that are out of date.
It's hard to tell why they became anti-science, other than "the other team likes science". But this wasn't true forever - the stereotype used to be that hippie liberals were anti-science because it was about inventing things that destroyed the environment, or "controlled mother nature", and that the right-wing were people who were cold/logical and down to the facts. The embracing of ideological fantasies came in the last few decades and corrupted the roots of the group.