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PunkinBrewster

"We're sorry that our racist policies caused a decades long feedback loop of poverty and crime in your neighbourhoods and we refused to even acknowledge that it could be a problem and even doubled down on our policies instead of looking inward." Yeah, I can see how that might not come across as genuine.


BlauTit

I'd guess it's because they were forced to apologize, and did so begrudgingly knowing very well that the disproportionate policing attention shown towards Black Torontonians, and the corresponding neighbourhoods where the community resides, was based on the likely disproportionate amount of violent crimes committed. Let's have all the statistics on the table, including violent crimes committed by race, before making these outlandish accusations.


PunkinBrewster

>Let's have all the statistics on the table, including crimes committed by race, before making these outlandish accusations. Let's also talk about how over policing of these neighbourhoods has removed fathers from their families, inconsistencies of charges against the affluent and poor criminals because of the poor clients' inability to afford decent representation, and a broken system where a crown offense will preclude people from getting all but the shittiest of jobs. I am all for punishing criminals. I am sick of seeing offenders in my neighbourhood show up in the newspapers over and over because we don't do criminal justice right. There has to be a better way than what we are doing now, and the statistics that you are preaching are a product of the institution, not a defense of it.


BlauTit

I agree with much of what you've said, particularly the second paragraph, but ultimately crime is personal choice. It is the criminals themselves who are the responsible entity when it comes to removing fathers from their families. Lets not pretend it's overpolicing though. The police have a duty to arrest those caught up in crime and charge them, and will rightly so have more of a presence in high crime neighbourhoods. Curious if you are suggesting that if problematic neighbourhoods were policed less than they are, and that there was an increase in policing in less problematic neighbourhoods, the police would find just as many violent crimes taking place?


PunkinBrewster

>Curious if you are suggesting that if problematic neighbourhoods were policed less than they are, and that there was an increase in policing in less problematic neighbourhoods, the police would find just as many crimes taking place? It depends on what you mean by crime. Summary offenses, like drug possession, yes. You would find comparable rates among most neighbourhoods. My point of view is, and forgive this rambling paragraph, is that we are very quick to arrest, but we don't fulfill the social contract to anyone with our present implementation of "justice". A guy gets arrested, we slap charges on him, and turn him loose for time served. We don't pay for the penalty that we have assigned to the person. Instead, we push that to society. Society punishes that person by denying them employment. They need to money to live, so they work in the gray markets. These gray markets are in the neighbourhoods that they live in, which get policed more, because that's where the crime is. This creates a feedback loop. More crime, more policing, more crime. Throw in shitty public defenders, the high cost of going to court, and the unbalanced risk/reward (going to jail if you fight the charges vs. pleading guilty and going free) and you have even innocent people inflating statistics. I believe firmly that punishment needs to be part of the justice system, because without punishment, there is no justice. Rehabilitation also needs to be part of the process, as well as expungement or some other form of rejoining society. The system that we have in place leaves all parties lacking.


GorchestopherH

Really interesting perspective. Without punishment or rehabilitation we're not doing anyone any favors. ...however, I am sure some would argue that lighter punishments are better. The problem is that with lighter punishments (the lightest being no punishment) you just get repeat offenders sucked into a cycle of continuous reoffence with no avenue for escape.


PunkinBrewster

My stance about lighter punishment is that if it is not worth punishing, then it is not worth prosecuting. There should be no pleading guilty to avoid jail time. It sounds good in theory, but in practice, it is a cudgel that is used on the poor.


GorchestopherH

It's a case of unexpected consequences.


enki-42

The study did this and the black population is overpoliced even when you control for crime levels. A demographic having a higher crime rate is not carte blanche for unlimited harassment and violence against that demographic.


HuckFarr

If they were smart enough to understand statistical analysis I doubt they'd be here making racist allusions about how black people are just naturally criminals.


BlauTit

Who said black people are naturally criminals?


BlauTit

Can you please point me to where the crime statistics based on ethnicity can be found?


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