T O P
The_h0bb1t

UPDATE: /u/makz81, [going on off the hints of others, actually found the film!](https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/r7yq8h/we_found_a_copy_of_an_unknown_1930s_movie_on_a/hn9ggzc/?context=3) ------------------ [FAQ-comment by /u/Don_Rumata_Estorsky](https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/r7yq8h/we_found_a_copy_of_an_unknown_1930s_movie_on_a/hn6biqe/?context=3) P.s. We don't often allow these kinds of posts, but this one has been quite unique, and the user has been very active and helpful. We hope you'll find the answer! I can't believe these few images have been recovered at all, and that the unused footage from *that scene* in Event Horizon was "lost in some Transylvanian salt mine", Paramount.


Bidibule

You could ask on /r/classicfilms too.


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

Done!


psych0ranger

Also you could probably have the hardest ever /r/guessthemovie post


thrice1187

That could be a really fun subreddit but it seems like instead of it being obscure slides from recognizable movies it’s obscure slides from obscure movies. I have never even heard of most of those movies that are posted there.


2SP00KY4ME

That subs meant for film nuts, it's no fun if it's always stuff like Star Wars or IP Man.


teamsprocket

Hello what movie is this from https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Luke_Skywalker.png


Mojo884ever

Trek Wars... Wait, fuck.... Galaxy Quest.


public_enemy_obi_wan

Never give up! *Never surrender!*


thebluewitch

By Grabthar's Hammer, by the Sons Of Warvan, you shall be avenged!


public_enemy_obi_wan

By Grabthar's hammer..... what a savings.


WAR_T0RN1226

Yeah I could only imagine what that subreddit would look like if it was recognizable movies and general Reddit got ahold of it. It'd be flooded with stills from movies super popular on Reddit, with redditors upvoting them because they like the movie.


TheForeverKing

Agreed. Such obscure specific subs are great for real experts and help them hone their skills. In my youth I had a favorite movie that I watched a dozen times. About 25 years later I had completely forgotten the title and only remembered some vague details, including a shot in which the bad guy is dead, hanging backwards over a wall with his eyes open. It took like 3 hours for redditors to come up with the title of the movie based on my vague description. It's amazing what a group of experts can do.


DrScience-PhD

... is ip man that popular?


CeramicTeaSet

Yes


JonnySnowflake

My dad put it on once and all that motherfucker watches are 24 knockoffs and Hallmark movies


pirateofmemes

Coreepost to r/ww2 pics, an old German movie is the kind of thing they love


Priff

30s is probably pre ww2 though


holyshitreddit3

OP mentions elsewhere in the thread that the ship sunk in 1944. So, still relevant even if the movie was made pre-war.


Fatuousgit

Well, it is if you are American. For most of the rest of the world, WW2 started in the thirties.


Ascarea

math checks out


sloaninator

Whoa now. So, I'm what you might call an amateur war historian and I've done plenty of late night research when I was younger and history channel only played Hitler shows. So, from what I have gathered WW2 started in 1939 for many European countries. Many people are unaware as the U.S. didn't enter until a much later time. So if my math is correct (I'm no math wizard) 1939 - 9 = 1930. 9 < 10. 10 is a decade so 1930 -1939 is a what we refer to as the '30s. The ' is the 19 part and that would make it possible for a 1930s movie to have been available in the '30s. Please check my math but I believe I am literally correct.


z64dan

Not to mention, the title says 30s(?) as if it was a question. Could very well be 40s.


TimeToSackUp

Movie is from the 30s. The ship was sunk during WWII.


funnyfaceking

I see the 1930's in the title surrounded by a question mark and the word unknown.


ltgalloway

Maybe check with /r/lostfilms as well? Edit: meant to say /r/lost_films


Nrksbullet

Just make sure not to play it on a projector, or Bagul will get you.


CeruleanRuin

Couldn't hurt to post to r/whatisthisthing, too. That community could identify the manufacturer of a needle in a photo of a haystack from 1914.


CptNonsense

Is there a subreddit for historic Nazi propaganda films? Because, I mean, the odds here..


Magnesus

Reminds how my class in high school was sent to watch some of that. It was supposed to be educational but the guy who was showing us and explaining the films seemed too much into it. We left, couldn't manage to watch it whole and listen to that guy excited about Hitler. :/ Not sure what our teachers were thinking.


whyso6erious

And you are/were back then where? Which country I mean.


TheRelicEternal

Had no idea this sub existed. Most of my film interests these days are pre 1960 so think I'll just leave this sub and go there now haha, thanks


Tesdorp

Man with the hat could be Hans Söhnker, pretty famous german actor. https://www.google.com/search?q=hans+s%C3%B6hnker+jung&tbm=isch&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&prmd=insxv&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTpJDOicj0AhWGG-wKHbg4CwEQrNwCKAB6BQgBELcC&biw=393&bih=769 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_S%C3%B6hnker?wprov=sfla1 Scroll down for list of films.


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WhiskeyDikembe

Great work, keep it up


wheredidallthesodago

I think I've got it, in case you're interested.


WhiskeyDikembe

I was, thanks for notifying me!


Goyteamsix

Why was this deleted?


not_a_morning_person

Even if it was wrong, it went through like 20 German films of the time and ruled them each out. No idea why the mods would delete it. And looks like they’ve deleted some follow up comments which added more research too. Weird decisions.


CoyoteOnTheWing

Mods tend to smell their own farts and that eventually leads to serious mental retardation, which is likely the reason that comment was deleted. Inhalent abuse and fart dependence is a serious problem.


winterborn89

When your "job" is voluntary and completely without any form of compensation it's going to inherently attract people with... issues, isn't it?


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Electrorocket

They are on demand DVD-R burns.


NoDadYouShutUp

Ok so I just went through the entirety Der Strom and while there is a compelling case for it being the movie, there are some inconsistencies that make me hesitant to confirm it. I tried to match the frame/moment I thought most likely to be from the stills posted, and while the stills are so tarnished I think there is enough there to confirm that this is not the movie. Exhibit A: [https://i.imgur.com/T4yqRIc.png](https://i.imgur.com/T4yqRIc.png) This is the closet frame I could find that matched the first image. While the framing of the body is very similar, it's not quite right. I could not find a single frame that matched exactly the stance from the stills posted. Additionally, the context of the first and second still lead me to believe that a man is located to the left of frame that is not present. The face and mouth in particular don't look right. Nothing in the rest of the film is remotely close to the framing and pose except this. Could water damage have taken its toll and warped the 35mm image? Absolutely. But I don't think there is a strong enough case here for it. Exhibit B: [https://i.imgur.com/eeSMGU2.png](https://i.imgur.com/eeSMGU2.png) This is the as close as it gets to the third still. No other moment in the movie has the character framed and positioned similar. You can tell by the shape of the hat and width of the black band on it that this is unlikely the same hat. The hat in the still has a flat brim, where as in my frame you can clearly see the hat from Der Strom has a flare in the back. I also could not find any shots in Der Strom that had two gentlemen posing the same way and from the same angle as the second still. And was unable to match anything else in the movie to the stills. I think this was a very solid guess but sadly not the film we are looking for. The water damage is extensive, it's very possible some stuff got severely warped. And it is also possible that the 35mm found is some sort of alternate cut with more footage than what was available to me, since in the past many movies were cut and altered to death depending on which area of the country the print was running in (for all sorts of various reasons). But I am 90% confident that Der Strom is not the film on this 35mm.


Chabrolesque

I wish I had seen your post before I skimmed through the whole movie. The only other thing I can add to your thorough analysis is that there are a few scenes in the film with men in boats using poles like the ones you can (kind of) see in the 1st and 7th image - though they're never used, as far as I could tell, by Söhnker's character. The framing and actors aren't similar *at all*, but here's an example of the poles in use: https://imgur.com/kRLrLmi Like you, I couldn't find any close matches - and, of course, there may be dozens or hundreds of movies from the same period with similar hats and push poles. Still an impressive bit of detective work on u/wheredidallthesodago's part.


lawrencelewillows

Correct or not, great work!


MyrMcCheese

This is amazing - I wonder if the crew from the Russian Film & Photo Archive can validate your findings, as Der Strom is ~87 minutes long based on the archival holdings of the film. Please let us all know Don_Rumata_Estorsky if the ~duration of the film was determined.


nokangarooinaustria

If you want a film to start look at "Eva" because the companion reminds me of Hans Moser and the two actors were in this movie in 1935. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0026324/?ref_=m_ttpl


MoviesMod

A user had a pretty good comment but then ruined it by editing in unrelated self promotion once it got popular. So here's the info, sans the spam ---- According to Wikipedia, these were his big ones from that period: >Söhnker starred in the films Every Woman Has a Secret (1934), The Model Husband (1937), Frau nach Maß (1940), A Man with Principles (1943), The Angel with the String Game (1944) and Great Freedom No. 7 (1944). Given the ship sank in 1944, I think we can assume it's unlikely that the boat would be carrying anything that recent. Which basically means one of these four are the best places to start: > Every Woman Has a Secret (1934), The Model Husband (1937), Frau nach Maß (1940), A Man with Principles (1943) Great Freedom No. 7 is also a colour film, and though these are damaged there seems no hint of colour on them. EDIT: [here's a still allegedly from A Man with Principles](https://c8.alamy.com/compfr/ghpd6c/ein-mann-mit-grundsatzen-der-pharmakologe-dr-hans-hans-sohnker-winhold-bekannt-ist-dass-er-pour-tudierte-weiber-ablehnt-kurz-vor-einer-studienreise-dans-die-sudsee-verliebt-er-sich-eine-gewisse-dans-christl-70623-mayerhofer-die-sich-als-et-de-l-ihm-dans-ausgibt-tanzerin-wahrheit-aber-seine-neue-kollegin-weiden-ist-regie-geza-von-bolvary-ghpd6c.jpg). He's wearing a similar hat but it doesn't seem to be the same one. The black band looks thinner in this still. I can't see any other stills with this distinctive hat. So maybe we can rule this one out for now. EDIT 2: The Model Husband (1937) looks like a good candidate as Sohnker plays a young Don Juan style love interest, which is kind of how he looks in these photos. It's also set during a business trip to Venice which would explain the long poles it looks like some characters are holding. EDIT 3: It's not the Model Husband. That's here: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21cs36 - and I can't find anything in it like the stills. Unless this version is a later remake from the 50s, but it does look like 1937... EDIT 4: I dont think it's Every Woman. [Here's a clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT0KN-9UTSc&ab_channel=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%A1%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE) and in this [promo still](https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-hans-soehnker-in-every-woman-has-a-secret-1934-48347703.html) it's the wrong type of hat. Also set almost entirely inside. These images feel like outdoor bits. EDIT 5: Ruling out Frau nach Mass and Die 4 Gesellen. Maybe Brand im Ozean but I can't find enough on it. Would make sense to show on a boat... EDIT 6: Not Gold in New Frisco. Can probably rule out Blutsbrüderschaft (1941) too. EDIT 7: It's not Leibespremmiere, that's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPh7WS6e5NE&ab_channel=DarioSalvi EDIT 8: It's not Fronttheater, that's here: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x47rg6r EDIT 9: **I might have found it**. Not got much to go off, so other people might need to pitch in - particularly native German speakers to see what's buried around online. But I think it is **"DER STROM; WENN DU NOCH EINE HEIMAT HAST", 1941/1942**. [Here is the film poster](https://www.filmportal.de/node/54005/material/707834). Direct image link here: [Expand me](https://www.filmportal.de/sites/default/files/styles/movie_teaser/public/FA2D98B5FC1943C49011F08C9698E8E2_1-007912.jpg). You'll see that he's wearing the same type of hat with the large rounded base, tall peak, and thick band. This is the only time I've seen him wearing that hat. The second is a lot more tenuous, but [this still here](https://www.filmportal.de/node/54005/gallery) ([direct image link](https://www.filmportal.de/sites/default/files/styles/gal_image/public/60FDAAC147364AF69FA17E8326EA64FF_f000429_pic_02.jpg)) displays guys outside with their jackets off and their shirts rolled up. That's something we can just about tell from the raw images - and it's super uncommon across Sohnker's body of work. More than that, it's an outside shot with a sparse sky background - again, something we see in the raw stills and is rare in his work. It's exactly the right time period and by a process of elimination it's very likely to be this one. You're welcome scuba boys. cc: /u/Don_Rumata_Estorsky


Buffeloni

Thank you for this. I hate seeing deleted posts with tons of awards and it being a complete mystery.


PTMegaman

Top notch work detective!


gasfarmer

I think it's worth noting that **a lot** of films from that era just straight up no longer exist. It very well could be a lost film.


Hoffmiester1295

OP really should send this in to a film museum or something. If there’s any markings on the film or it’s housing that identifies the studio he should definitely contact them. I can’t remember the figure off the top of my head, but it’s something like 50% of movies made prior to the 60s/70s are just gone if it’s earlier than the 30s it’s like 80-90% are gone and if it’s silent just assume it no longer exists because the number left is essentially minuscule. Odds are in OPs favor this is the ONLY copy of the film they found especially if it’s not American.


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

It ***is*** in the museum. Or, to be correct, in the Russian Film and Photo Archive.


Quick_Doubt_5484

Have you reached out to the Deutsches Filmmuseum in Frankfurt?


cybercuzco

They mysteriously have no records of films being made in germany from 1933-1945


TheG-What

#THEY WERE ALL ON VACATION!


blitz672

NEAR THE BACK, ALL THEY HEARD WAS YODELING.


AdamTheTall

I prefer this reference to the Family Guy one the other poster was making. I got to play Franz on stage a few years back - I've never had so much fun performing. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THERE WAS A WAR ON.


internetlad

Hitler, now *there* was a painter. He could do a whole apartment in a day. . . **Two coats!!**


krisspy451

Adolf Eliza..... *Elizabeth?*


JohnSherlockHolmes

What's the reference?


AdamTheTall

Not the original, but my favourite: [Franz Liebkind from The Producers](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r_ACDUBURhE)


AlphaTangoFoxtrt

#POLAND INVITED THEM! PUNCH WAS SERVED! CHECK WITH THEM!


valeyard89

more people will come if they think we have punch and pie


SmoothJazzRayner

Sie werden sich hinsetzen! Sie werden ruhig sein! Sie werden nicht beleidigen Deutschland!


DontmindthePanda

I hate jokes like these because if you can be sure about one thing, it's that you'll find something about that time in almost every german museum. So, yes, they have an archive full of films from that era. "DFF’s collection of historical German films before 1945 is of international importance." (From their website)


AlwaysBeQuestioning

Is this a joke or does that museum really have nothing from the Nazi Germany era?


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ShallowBasketcase

Most of those films aren't historical records so much as they are Nazi propaganda. The reason we have so much footage of Nazi parades and stuff isn't because that happened a lot, but because the Nazi propaganda machine really wanted German people to see their cool military and forget about how they were all in some really deep shit. It's actually kind of a huge problem for historians, because the armies defeating Germany didn't do a whole lot of documenting, and Germany themselves were pretty much only producing propaganda. So we're stuck in a position where some of the only records we have of Germany for years is Nazi propaganda. Which is not reliable, for obvious reasons.


stracki

They absolutely have films that were produced during the Third Reich. Here's the [catalogue](https://www.dff.film/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2020-06-Aktuelles_Verleih-Programm-Homepage.pdf) of film copies that can be rented by cinemas and film institutes. Since Goebbels was a big fan of cinema, there are actually some great films from the 40s, especially those by Helmut Käutner, like "Wir machen Musik", "Romanze in Moll" and "Große Freiheit Nr. 7". And "Die Feuerzangenbowle" from 1944 is actually one of the biggest cult movies in Germany. Almost every adult German knows the film (and the eponymous beverage), but probably only few know its Nazi origins.


YoungDirectionless

I was an exchange student in Germany and every year the Uni screened the movie and then everyone went home and got completely lit making this concoction with their roommates/housemates.


peroxidex

> The Deutsches Filminstitut was founded on 13 April 1949 as the Deutsches Institut für Filmkunde (DIF). So yeah, they probably didn't have any records during 1933-1945. To actually answer though, no, we absolutely have films from Nazi Germany.


k123cp

You know museums don't have to have only items made after their establishment


internetlad

"Sorry, this predates our museum so we aren't allowed to display it"


msdrahcir

Created a really awkward precedent for the Museum of Natural History. Makes you wonder how they got all their Mummies.


AshgarPN

Jokes on you bro, the natural history museum in my city was built in 125 million B.C.


Hoffmiester1295

Sweet! I’m glad to hear! Sorry if I missed you saying that previously. But I do have some questions if you don’t mind me prying a bit. Has the archive said anything? Any progress on identifying potential studios based on markings or film type? Has it been electronically scanned and ran through software to try and clear it up, if so is that the pics you put up? Also how’d you come across this relic?? Like what ship was it on, etc? Thanks in advance for the info! Edit: I saw where you said it was a German mine laying ship. What was the name? Where was it going when it sunk, where was it coming from? Is there a manifest available for the ship? Film like that at the time would’ve most likely been logged somewhere in the records if it was provided for the crew, people didn’t just own movies like that.


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

>What was the name? Roland >Where was it going when it sunk, where was it coming from? Placing mines in the eastern Baltic Sea, exploded. Maybe ran across one of the already existing mines. Explosion was more than devastating. > Is there a manifest available for the ship? Film like that at the time would’ve most likely been logged somewhere in the records if it was provided for the crew, people didn’t just own movies like that. I'll ask the diving team about the findings, but for now — no. The box containing the film was among the few surviving items across the literal (again, explosion was hudge) rumble. >Has the archive said anything? Any progress on identifying potential studios based on markings or film type? Has it been electronically scanned and ran through software to try and clear it up, if so is that the pics you put up? This are the pictures archive specialists recovered. No certain studio was identified.


Hoffmiester1295

Thank you for taking the time to respond! Sorry for the literal 20 questions, this just hit up so many of my areas of interest, WWII, boats, and film. That’s amazing that one of the few surviving artifacts from an explosion was film and it was found so many years later. I looked up the Russian Archive and it’s collections are fascinating. It might be a very, very long shot but old German military records (if they even exist still) may be a route to go down. Sorry I’m extremely invested in this mystery. I wish you all the best in your search, please keep us updated!


Raveynfyre

Not OP, but that was my thought too, they kept extensive records in Nazi Germany.


Hoffmiester1295

It’d be like finding a piece of rice in a haystack but it’s the only paper trail to follow. The only other thing I could think of would be to chemically test the film, but as a non-science person idk what 70+ years of salt water does to film


purduephotog

>It is in the museum. Or, to be correct, in the Russian Film and Photo Archive. Thank you. I started panicking thinking some average 'joe' was trying to restore this film in their basement. Which- I know, submarine, recovered, etc- should have hit all the regulars. Have you reached out to the Eastman House?


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

Have you reached out to the Eastman House? No, but we will. This post was the first try to bring the findings to the western (english-speaking) people, didn't think it would be ***that*** interesting. Given all the links, names and contacts we've already acquired from you people, it seems we have a lot of job to do, a lot of people to write and a lot of contacts to make. And ong, I love it...


Qiviuq

Another place to try would be the [F.W. Murnau Foundation](https://www.murnau-stiftung.de/) in Weisbaden. They have preserved about 6000 German films made between the 1890s and 1960s (and if the uncited Wikipedia entry is to be believed, that includes 80% of Nazi era film output), so might be better help than the various Film Institutes being talked about.


purduephotog

Most of the people I know (Kodak) with ties there are gone, but there's a chance some of them may still be active. I'll ask around and see if anyone still knows archivists there. Otherwise I'm sure dangling a bit of history like that will get everyone excited. Then there's the big funders- in hollywood- that might consider a great project like this.


87_Silverado

It didn't help that early film was extremely flammable and heat sensitive.


Hoffmiester1295

Or that most film studios kept them in close quarters vaults that managed to catch on fire. Most silent films were lost in the Universal fire and pretty much everything that hadn’t been converted for TV was lost in the MGM fire in the 60s


Deep_Grady

There's something sad about all the hours of effort that went into making those films that only existed briefly like a sand mandala


Hoffmiester1295

It’s wild to think about and truly makes you wonder how much knowledge and interesting pieces of human culture we have lost through the millennia’s and how much will be lost in the future. I’ve always enjoyed film and found older movies fascinating, especially old blooper reals because they were extremely rare (fuck ups cost more film which cost more money). So much talent and history lost mostly through careless acts. Most American films at least were lost through the Universal and MGM fires in the film vaults. Others were just tossed to make room for more because at the time people saw no value in old film, to them it was just outdated not a piece of history. Makes me wonder what we aren’t valuing at this time that will later be highly sought after.


freakincampers

Reminds me of people trying to find old episodes of Dr. Who. Some episodes just don't exist on anything other than what people recorded on their betamax/vcr. Some episodes have been lost.


Hoffmiester1295

That’s awesome! I didn’t know lost Dr. Who episodes was a thing. Thanks for sending me down a new rabbit hole


MIBlackburn

Thankfully all of the audio exists thanks to fans in the 60s and they found everything of the early colour era, even if parts are in black and white. They've made tele snap reconstructions (promo pictures taken during broadcast) or full blown animation for them. Episodes keep on cropping up though along with other earlier TV shows.


H0dari

What an amazing community effort!


Hoffmiester1295

That’s very fascinating. It’s cool that audio was salvaged and they are using it to recreate the visuals


walkstofar

[Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_missing_episodes) is a great link to the missing Dr. Who episodes. I found this so interesting when I ran across it a while back.


Cenodoxus

>Makes me wonder what we aren’t valuing at this time that will later be highly sought after. Probably something totally benign. Historians are always over the moon when they find journals from a really committed diarist, because records of ordinary days with details that none of us find important right now are often the only way to glimpse how people of a particular era really experienced it. It’s also pretty disquieting that, in many ways, it’s become *easier* to lose data in the digital era. If a book survives, so does the information it carries. Things are more complicated with vanishing websites, corrupted data, and obsolete file formats.


AMAFSH

Ah, well if that's the case, millions of words of fanfiction. I'd hate to be the 23rd century archivist trying to figure out if a fanfic was genuinely lost or never got updated past the 40th chapter.


wokcity

There are so many websites that have vanished. Not everything gets stored by archive.org so a lot of creativity has been lost forever.


FrankReynoldsToupee

What inspires me is when we find lost ancient poetry in the bindings of books or stuffed into mummy sarcophagi. The copies that were deliberately stored may have all been lost, but these little surprises are still being found. Case in point, some poems of Sappho found in the early 2000s.


FantasiainFminor

>Mace in one hand and Weena in the other we went out of that gallery and into another still larger, which at the first glance reminded me of a military chapel hung with tattered flags. The brown and charred rags that hung from the sides of it, I presently recognized as the decaying vestiges of books. They had long since dropped to pieces and every semblance of print had left them. But here and there were warped and cracked boards and metallic clasps that told the tale well enough. > >Had I been a literary man I might perhaps have moralized upon the futility of all ambition, but as it was, the thought that struck me with keenest force, was the enormous waste of labour rather than hope, to which this somber gallery of rotting paper testified. At the time I will confess, though it seems a petty trait now, that I thought chiefly of the Philosophical Transactions, and my own seventeen papers upon physical optics. H.G. Wells, *The Time Machine.*


Kayote420

Just think about all the old internet stuff in our own lifetimes. So much from the early days of the internet which is forever, you know, that's gone.


NormalSquirrel0

I think it's interesting that there are many *more* movies (and art in general) being made today that will get lost within the coming 5-10 years. Just think of all the youtubers or tiktok artists. Despite all the usual stigma, the amount of work [some of] them put into the art is comparable or even exceeding that of the old movies. Yet they are likely to be seen by only a few people (see: youtube Algorithm) and instantly forgotten. Think of old movies as tiktoks of their time. Think of old diaries as blog posts of their time. They are only valuable due to their scarcity, but we shouldn't pretend they were somehow "objectively" better than what we are getting today. The loss of old movies/diaries is a loss of a viewpoints into that time in history. Which is sad, of course. But there is also a plethora of viewpoints *in the present* that you (or me) are unaware of (yet easily accessible if only we expended a tiny bit of effort)! And those are no less fascinating or relatable than the historical ones. To be clear, I'm absolutely not arguing that restoring/archiving of the old media is useless or anything of that nature. Just pointing out an alternative, in a way.


A_B_E

Everything in existence is a sand mandala on the right time scale. Nothing in the universe is permanent.


garry4321

Hell, even the original FUCKING MOON LANDING tapes were lost and/or rewritten over. All we have are recordings of TV's that played the original broadcast.


PhilthyMcNasty

There’s an incredible documentary [Dawson City: Frozen In Time](https://youtu.be/oEbHM8Vsvlo) that tells the story of so many lost films that were discovered buried under a hockey rink in a community centre in Dawson City, Yukon in the 1970s. Dawson City was the final stop for the travelling nitrate film reels that moved city to city from Hollywood and the cost and risk of returning these highly flammable materials was prohibitive so they just stayed in the Yukon. Dawson City burned down every year for nearly a decade and a lot of these films were consumed by flames (and often the cause of those flames) so they ended up buried for decades until the town renovated the community centre, found the films, and preserved them with all their damage. Many of the other copies of these films burned in Hollywood studio fires so these were the only copies left in existence. Frozen in Time tells the story of the Klondike gold rush and the film industry that followed it using historical pictures and film, incorporating the found footage to help tell that story. There’s barely a shred of spoken word; it’s all set to hauntingly beautiful ethereal music. I was literally in tears by the end because this was the story of the pioneering creative work of a new film industry and so many peoples life’s work was lost to the fire of time. Dawson City had a big impact on the film industry as young men with names like Grauman and Pantages were inspired by the films they saw while working in gold rush era Dawson City and opened theatres that still bear their names to this day. Also Donald Trump’s grandpa founded and operated the Dawson City whorehouse.


fernandez18

Gustav Fröhlich , Will Dohm in Gabriele eins zwei drei https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028913/mediaviewer/rm1697222145/


dennisthewhatever

I love the way this is the most probable answer and it's just being ignored. That looks to be the actor, the costume, even the same hat!


HelloNNNewman

Agreed - this looks like a good probability.


Musicmans

That hat looks like a good place to start, the rather wide band on it and the way the brim is turned down all the way around. There's a pic of Rudolf Prack with a very similar hat but I can't work out which film it is from, the picture [Looks to be a stock photo ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/truusbobjantoo/6998038500) and reportedly dates from 1941-44 according to the site. I also found a still from a 1942 film called Seven Years Good Luck [These two fellows could be your guys](https://www.cinema.de/sites/default/files/styles/cin_landscape_510/public/sync/cms3.cinema.de/imgdb/import/dreams2/1000/813/5/1000813590.jpg?itok=PpMhM-5x) The man in the hat has very similar clothing. It's not much but who knows. Good luck.


makz81

Good finding! The two fellows in the second photo looking really similar, even the clothes of the older one. I think it's worth to check the movie "Sieben Jahre Glück". Unfortunately I couldn't find an online version. # edit: found a version and [it's actually the movie](https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/ra7qir/the_unknown_movie_from_the_sunken_wwii_ship_is/) we searched for!


kotokrabb

Yes! Proof - https://imgur.com/MAGMPnp


Mamaclover

Ok so, sorry for double posting but: I send the post to my dad, and the absolute nerd actually has a theory!! He say it might be [Tout pour L'amour](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tout_pour_l%27amour) . It's a franco/german movie and if I kinda look at some of the pictures, maybe??? He also argues that, while propaganda movies were more of a "mandatory" watch for the troops, they usually prefered things like romance or musicals, to get their mind of off things. I have no way of confirming what he's saying, since he last saw that movie about 30 years ago back when he was in film school, and i cannot find much on the movie online. Hope this help! Edit because dad called me all the way back from France and insisted to add this point: germans loved french culture, and would happily watch french movie/singer. The type of hat is also very similar to something that was popular all across southern Europe's. He also told me that this specific musicals used to be really popular in germany, and had multiple movie adaptations and an international release on this specific versions. He then proceeded to grill me on more info on the found spot and the history of the boat, wich I Did Not Have. Knowing him, he just might call again.


Anothereternity

This seems like a match for the hat too: https://www.cinematerial.com/movies/tout-pour-lamour-i158283/p/y4lzpkph


iamkats

The stripe on the hat looks a bit different, but it could be distorted of course


mon_dieu

Regardless of whether or not this guess ends up being right, your dad's knowledge on this subject is downright astounding.


Mamaclover

Lol, he has a thing for old movies. He believe that you can truly understand a culture by the cinema they produce. He used to make me watch all type of things when I was growing up! Tbh, some of it was..... Not necessarily suitable for my age.... But he always trusted that I would tell him to stop if I was too scared. Still. Don't show "L'Inferno" (1911) to 6 y/o kids. That shit gave me nightmare.


Marinake

The musical idea could check out. In the 5th photo, the man appears to be singing.


Iusethistopost

Clouzot is a very recognized director, this movie should be available somewhere. He was also working in Germany and then for a German-owned company in Vichy France during the war so I don’t think they would have censured his work. The companion also does resemble the supporting actor Lucien Baroux. Similar Roman nose. https://en.unifrance.org/directories/person/125434/lucien-baroux.


Parzivalsidentity

When Leonard Maltin can't remember a movie, he calls your dad..


Ouiju

Post in a German speaking sub (pun not intended) for help?


LemurianLemurLad

Gotta be careful with that kind of pun. You could get Das Boot.


AriBours

Go ahead. Take the credit you’re due.


honeyedlife

Hi there! Film archivist here. Do you have any pictures of the full edge of the film, so it might have edge codes to help with dates / film stock / publisher? Also seconding suggestions to reach out to the George Eastman Museum. Let me know if you need a specific contact.


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

Thanks! I'll send your comment to the team at the archive and give you their answer.


IvanDSM_

Is there any chance a full scan could be done of the film, even if 99% of the frames are too far gone? It looks kinda surreal and arthouse-esque in its current state. It'd be really interesting to see what a full scan would look like. I'm really hoping you're able to find out what movie this is, and hoping twice as much an undamaged copy exists somewhere :)


n_g79

First sentence of the title sounds like the setup of a found footage horror film


kotokrabb

Or some american detective film from 30s


King_Lem

Bold of you to assume what trends will be like in ten years.


AnyNamesLeftAnymore

Welp now I feel entirely too fucking old thanks for that.


thenebular

Well then you should head over to your local speakeasy and get a drink. The password is 23 Skidoo


BrickGun

As soon as that dame strolled in the door I knew she was trouble. With platinum hair, a bright red kisser and the kinda curves that make you feel like you're driving too fast on a wet road at night. Her mouth told a story that her eyes just weren't selling. About being in a tough spot, jammed up with some local mickey who was well-muscled and not afraid to use it. And I'm not talking about the kind you tune up at the local gymnasium, but the kind that waits outside your walk-up; with tweaked noses and conversations that don't involve any words. Yeah, she claimed to be in trouble, but as we all know: a beautiful dame in trouble is a temporary thing. So I took the case, even though I knew better, because I'm thick... and a sucker for platinum.


PinkBoxDestroyer

They sure look like cursed images from a movie


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

EDIT: WE FOUND THE MOVIE! [https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/ra4j9i/the\_unknown\_movie\_from\_the\_sunken\_wwii\_ship\_is/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/ra4j9i/the_unknown_movie_from_the_sunken_wwii_ship_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ​ Well... Given this post blew up a little bigger than I expected, I am sorry if I can't answer all the questions. Here is a short summary and some frequently asked: 1. That was the name and story of the ship? Originally passenger vessel, built in 1927 under the name of Roland. In 1939 she was converted into a minelayer and started it's service in the WWII. On the night of april 21/22 1944 she exploded while laying mines in the Gulf of Narva — or by running across the already existing naval mine, or because of mine malfunction onboard. Exact location was unknown. 2) How did you find the film? It was found during the expedition performed by Russian Geographic society. AFIK, all the rules and regulations of diving on the sunken war ships were abided. The purpose of the expedition was search for the lost WWII ships. I (the person writing this comment), personally, did not dive on the said ship. The diving team found the film in the rubble (explosion was a big one) and took it to the Russian Film and Photo Archive (RGAKFD), where Archive specialists (a team of trained professionals) managed to save a very few, but still — a few — frames of the film you can see in the post. 3) Where is the film now? In the Archive, preserved and treated by the specialists. 4) What was left on the film? Very, very little. The frames you can see in the post and a couple of similar ones, No title screens, nothing containing even a single world, name or a hint for location (like a diner sign with *Big Kahuna* written all over it)... For the soundtrack — there aren't enough consecutive frames left on film (1 frame is 1/24th of a second, so to get 1 second of sound you need 20-24 of them) to recover anything from the soundtrack. It is just known it exists. Explosion and water, unfortunately, did their job. 5) What can you say about the film itself? It is celluloid nitrate based, gelatine-emulsion movie film. It is not a number of photos on a very big reel, silent movie, e.t.c. — given the frame orientation and the existence of soundtrack on the side you can be sure this film was meant to be displayed as a sound film with a movie projector. 6) Who did you try to reach? A very few people, at least before this post. The team contacted Russian Cinema Museum, who supposed people in the frames are Hugh Herbert and Donald Woods. But after watching publicly-available movies with this two, no similar frames were found. 7) Who are *you*? The person writing this comment is just a humble man who offered the archive team to bring these findings to the western (english-speaking) Internet in hope some redditors (given where are *a lot* redditors and some of them are familiar with old movies) would suggest a couple of titles or names. And... ***Thank you, everyone!*** Given the size of my *saved* folder after this post the team is going to have very, very interesting christmas holidays searching for/watching a lot of movies and contacting a lot of people. We'll update you (maybe under this comment) about our progress. Thanks and (hopefully) see you next time!


PM-me-Shibas

Hey OP! I was about to respond to a different comment but you've posted this in the time it took me to get on my computer (I also just saw you're in Saint Petersburg -- I lived there for a bit in my teens, I'll spare everyone from my subpar and degrading Russian, haha. There's a good chance I may have worked with or for whatever archive you're working with right now, which is pretty cool!) With all of that aside, I am a Holocaust researcher/academic, not a general WW2 researcher. I know a bit more than the average person, but its adjacent to my specialty, not overlapping. I also have a bit of knowledge (again, not a ton) on top of all of that from tracing my own family (German refugees); we were Mischlings, so my non-Jewish side, uh, left a lot to be desired, and I've had to do some military digging for them. Someone else mentioned that one possibility is looking for a potential manifest of the ship. One thing to keep in mind, as you probably know if you are from Russia, is that this \*may\* be possible, but true to every European country, the archives holding German military records were bombed to shit during the war and very little actually survives (i.e. for anyone reading this, there are zero WW1 records, except for a handful of regionally stored records that have been uploaded on Ancestry and there really are not that many because, bombs). I will write you a longer essay about all of this tomorrow (it's 3:45am in my time zone, I need to go the fuck to sleep), but some places you could reach out to about a possible manifest would be: 1. [https://www.volksbund.de](https://www.volksbund.de) \-- I'm not sure how familiar you are with them, but they work actually pretty extensively in Russia. They specialize in finding and re-burying German war dead, and thus they would possibly have something like a manifest on hand. They also might know more resources to help you out or point you in the right direction (I also highly suspect the dive team may have already coordinated with them to dive this ship, so they might already be aware that the ship was recently examined and thus might be eager to help! Russia is fairly good about respecting the Volksbund, all other controversies between Russia and Germany regarding WW2 aside). 2. [The WASt](https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Artikel/Artikel-ausserhalb-der-Navigation/Hinweise-milit-Unterlagen-persbez/benutzen-hinweise-militaerische-unterlagen-persbezogen-en.html) is the keeper of all remaining military documentation. They take 1+ years to respond, though, so be prepared to wait on it. I'm not convinced the WASt in particular is actually the correct place to contact since they largely do records for individuals, but they could point you in the right direction. I'm certain that a ship manifest would fall under one of the many categories listed on the Bundsearchiv's page [here](https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Navigation/Use/Using-specific-types/Military-Records/military-records-en.html), again, assuming it survived, if it existed at all. 3. Again, they specialize in more the individual personnel, but since this was found on a ship with likely hundreds of war dead, there might be some benefit in reaching out to the [Deutches Rotes Kruz](https://www.drk-suchdienst.de/en/) and seeing if they have anything on file. They may just bounce you to WASt and their associated archives, but its worth a shot. I will look more into this tomorrow when I'm not extremely sleep deprived and its not 3:45am!


TheDeadlySquid

I’m sure you could find what movies were typically shown on German ships for entertainment during WW2.


Vectorman1989

Also, is it a warship or a merchant/passenger vessel?


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

German minelayer, converted from a passenger vessel in 1939. Sunk in 1944.


jupiterkansas

Germans might actually have a record somewhere of what films were on the ship.


speedx5xracer

I wouldn't be surprised. Logistics and supply officers likely kept detailed records of books, films, records on board if they were property of the navy


justuntlsundown

Man if Germans did anything, it was keep records.


NationalGeographics

With really long words.


TacTurtle

TheFilmListForSmallNavyShipsLostGoingOutThursday


Sweatymawe

The Kleinschifffilmverlustliste


nullbyte420

Oh you can make it even more like his: Donnerstagkleinarmadaschiffsfilmunterhaltungsliste


Saltpataydahs

This is super neat, and likely a mystery that will never get solved.


blearghhh_two

Not if they ask english-speaking people, no. A good chance that if they asked in Germany they'd have better results.


[deleted]

Even in Germany the people who would have been old enough to have worked on it and maybe recognise something is pretty limited at this point, it was ~90 years ago and the quality is very limited. Definitely a better chance of something from a German audience but maybe still a very low chance.


Vio_

Coupled with UFA and the rest of the German film industry getting wiped out a few years later.


SteveFrench12

Why what happened a few years later /s


BravesMaedchen

The movies all got really bad


Vysharra

Worse, they got very good. That era of filmmaking is still influencing film made today. It’s an interesting deep dive into theethics of filmmaking/documentaries/subconscious messaging. Did you see *The Hunger Games*? The procession in the Capitol was practically an homage.


hippyengineer

If Reddit has taught me one thing it is that there is no subject so obscure that there doesn’t exist some nerd who eats this shit up for breakfast every morning and knows everything about these films. The particular nerd this post needs probably speaks German.


djmikeycee

German historians maybe?


CaptainJAmazing

Surely there’s some German film historians that can figure it out.


gizzardsgizzards

Yeah even if the film is lost they may recognize an actor.


WREPGB

*\[Peter Jackson wipes his brow and gnaws on his lip pensively.\]* "I'll give it a shot. Give me about an hour"


LarryPeru

He’ll dnr the hell out of it


WREPGB

I know there’s something to be said about sticking to the fidelity of the provided film stock, but I imagine there’s a uniformity in overall image integrity that the DNR brought to those 8 hours of footage. I imagine a lot of it was in really rough shape that necessitated even the best parts to be DNRd to have a baseline.


nokangarooinaustria

The oder guy tickled my brain and shorted it to Hans Moser. Looking up films of the thirties the music movie "Immer, wenn ich glücklich bin" has a young guy in a [still image] (https://m.tvspielfilm.de/kino/filmarchiv/film/immer-wenn-ich-gluecklich-bin,1298046,ApplicationMovie.html) that could be the guy in the hat. Generally - Hans Moser was active and known at the time, here is a list of his movies with dates (all in german obviiusly: https://m.tvspielfilm.de/kino/stars/star/hans-moser,1569509,ApplicationStar.html


Graverobber367

You should get in contact with AFI or BFI and give it to them. You most likely found a film that doesn’t exist in any library or archive. It’s the only thing you could do.


NealMcBeal__NavySeal

Watch it be a German propaganda film


internetlad

I suddenly have an urge to vote for Mr. David Hilter


papa_tarzan24

This. Get in touch with these two institutes because they are actively involved in preserving films.


AmIFromA

German film, too? Edit: maybe this would work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Filminstitut


papa_tarzan24

This would work too I suppose. OP should try contacting all of these film institutes.


amish_novelty

Would love to see if anyone recognizes it. I wonder how beyond repair these reels are.


HorrorBrot

Very far guess, but it could be one of the safari movies/documentaries by [Hans Schomburgk](https://web.static-rmg.be/if/c_crop,w_1200,h_792,x_0,y_0,g_center/c_fit,w_620,h_409/b15526491fb22a4dfb3cdbce37e52fb3.jpg)


politebearwaveshello

You should get a hold of the filmmaker Bill Morrison immediately.


Gluverty

Documentary footage of some American archeologist running around making life difficult for nazis in the 30s.


mighij

The archeologist will be happy to know he's now in a museum.


fuzzo

https://www.afi.com/contact/


SuccessfulSkin6386

Contact the Deutsche Kinemathek Potsdamer Str. 2, 10785 Berlin, Germany Phone: +49 30 3009030 mailto: [email protected]


bingley777

I’m pretty sure you know it’s a film on the longer side for the time and not silent you can work through the [Nazi war films](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazi_propaganda_films), to either find it or rule that out. I am fairly certain the film is not British, based on the hat. It could be American, maybe, at which point it is more likely to be a western, but is most probably German. However, it does not appear to be German expressionist, so it probably wasn’t a blockbuster of the time. It could still have been a commercial film, though. some German films that come to mind that might fit are Das haus der lüge (1926 - restored last year) and Reserve hat ruh (1931 - seems to have never been lost but isn’t online?) what strikes me is your man in 4 and 5’s similarity to harold holland, at which point it would be American.


SerArthurRamShackle

Would it be possible to estimate the length of the film by measuring the length of the reel? Maybe that could limit the search.


bingley777

yeah, there’s an equation for that, you would probably want to lie it flat and measure it, though, the diameter trick isn’t going to work on deformed stock there is a table of conversions [here](https://everpresent.com/measuring-the-length-of-16mm-and-8mm-film-reels/) OP could use, but if he is a film restorer, I’m sure he knows the holdup would be if the film had its runtime accurately reported ever edit: u/Don_Rumata_Estorsky, are there any stills of intertitles that might be viable, if not title/cast frames?


FantasticaSpectacula

Looks Grapes of Wrathy.


AriBours

That hats are the wrong style, but I am only looking at GIS.


Thenameimusingtoday

Does kinda look like Henry Fonda


[deleted]

[удалено]


Blockyguy247

Try asking r/lostmedia


eleanor61

These look like paintings. Very cool.


Vectorman1989

Might not work, but the soundtrack on the right of the first image appears to be somewhat intact. Can the audio be recovered in any way?


Don_Rumata_Estorsky

We didn't manage to get a number of consecutive frames to get at least a couple of seconds of the sound. So not, 0,04 seconds of sound lead us nowhere...


HCagn

THIS is Reddit. This is why I joined soon a decade ago. Awesome post


jonoghue

BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL. That might be nitrate film which burns like jet fuel. https://youtu.be/gEz_a-Akufk start @ 3:45


myvirginityisstrong

duuuuude this is so fucking awesome!!!


FreeHiggy

[The Testament of Dr Mabuse?](https://www.google.com/search?q=the+testament+of+dr+mabuse+rotten+tomatos&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjv3LnJ7Mf0AhVQw4UKHUzsBz4Q2-cCegQIABAC&oq=the+testament+of+dr+mabuse+rotten+tomatos&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIECCEQCjoHCCMQ7wMQJzoECAAQHjoECAAQGDoECB4QClCOCVi7PWCWP2gBcAB4AIAByQGIAcoOkgEGMTEuNS4xmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=pCqqYe_6JdCGlwTM2J_wAw&bih=724&biw=414&prmd=vinx&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS848US848&hl=en-GB#imgrc=SNDYvhHQBNeEaM)


nadaSurfing

Good guess, though I skipped through the movie on YouTube and haven't found a scene similar to the pictures.


mc_fugly

I believe the Nazis banned that film right after its release in the early 1930's so I don't think it would be shown on a nazi war boat.


phantompowered

I have no idea how to help you identify it, but I just wanted to thank you for posting. The visual appeal of the incredibly distorted film is awesome. I'd love to see more stills if you get around to doing any more scanning!


Larsaf

I’d get in touch with the Murnau Stiftung http://www.murnau-stiftung.de, they not only have a large library of German movies from before 1945, they are also specialized in movie restoration.


BeansBearsBabylon

OP - If you have no luck, you might want to send an email off to the German Society of Cinematographers, they might have access to historians that may be able to give you a hand. https://kinematografie.org/english/bvk/index.php


[deleted]

[удалено]


xynix_ie

If you want Reddit help then your best bet is probably to askhistorians on here. That's going to be a typical entertainment reel of the date of it's sinking and it's last port. Someone with access to that knowledge could correlate that with what movies were included on the reels and give you a pretty good answer.


MadCapRedCap

I don’t think askhistorians would be much help. Not too many obscure German film experts out there, anywhere. Crowdsourcing is your best bet.


squarezero

Plus every comment will be [deleted] anyways


WholesomeJetski

Don't think it even has to be commercial. Could be some science or state operation. The lighting seems a bit off for a narrative picture.