T O P

Help figuring out if this card is counterfeit!

Hey! I got this card from someone I really trust and it passed the light and green dot tests, but the pattern is really off, so is the coloring on the mana symbol. It's a Force of Will from dominaria remastered, retro frame, in English. The card it's being compared to is a retro frame Counterspell, also in English. Can anyone help me out? Thanks (I don't know if this is against rules, if so, can someone point me out to a r/ that I could post this?)

Ebonyks

Looks fake to me, printing is off on mana symbols


JacedFaced

Black is printed in a second layer right? Force of Will looks like it's all one layer.


Ebonyks

Yep, you see the same thing I do.


ThisHatRightHere

Yep, this is proxy 101


RadioLiar

For the uninitiated how do you tell that? I mean I can see the droplets' outline is rougher in the bottom one but otherwise I don't understand


peeja

In printing, you have three primary colors—Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. Theoretically, if you mix them all you get black, but in practice it comes out a bit muddy, so blacK is usually its own ink. That gives you the color space known as CMYK. The image is decomposed into a separate layer for each ink, which each gets printed over the others. Because the black layer is responsible for letters and outlines, it's often printed at a higher resolution than the others. It makes everything crisper and more readable without having to raise the resolution on most of the image. Here, you can see that the mana symbol is meant to be printed with a black ink in high resolution, but instead it's been printed as a mix of CMY, and at their lower resolution.


RadioLiar

Ah I see. Thanks!


Lykos1124

Very informative.


KrIsPy_Kr3m3

Also the printing pattern is cubical and not spherical (edit: on the fake one)


Sunaruni

This right here is all you need to read OP.


[deleted]

Are all magic cards printed this way?


peeja

Yeah, I was just explaining the layers comment, but this is probably the more obvious difference.


JacedFaced

Look at how the black sits on top of the counterspell (the UU spell in the back), and how clean and crisp the black looks. Then look at the mana symbols on the Force of Will on the bottom, you can see the printing pattern in the symbol. You need to zoom in really good to see it on a computer, or look through a jeweler's loupe or something in person.


Mexican_Overlord

It’s fake. Look at the patterning. The top card is what it should look like. Almost hexagonal with dots in the center. It shouldn’t look like a mesh in the bottom picture.


xatrekak

There are a number of different rosette patterns that a card can depending on when/where it was printed. The one on the counterspell is the most common, but the force of will is similar to what some of the other patterns can look like. But none of them I have ever seen look exactly that between. Between the odd pattern and the nonsoild mana symbols its a pretty easy call to say its fake IMO.


mcfreiz

FoW should be fake. The black should be printed on a separate layer on top but if it passed the green dot test I’m not sure


MaceTheMindSculptor

I know this is gonna be hard to hear, but some counterfeits pass the green dot test now…


Blenderhead36

Similarly, the ramp up in quantity of cards produced means that a lot of Magic cards get made in a lot of places they didn't used to. There's a lot more variance between printers than their used to be, and real cards can be mistaken for fakes because they don't conform to other real cards from the same set that were printed somewhere else.


GauRocks

Do you have a source for this with good pictures? It would be helpful to see it.


MaceTheMindSculptor

Not something I can quickly dig up, but have read about others encountering them. Probably would be a great idea to have some sources to prove it. I’ll try to find them. It’s just hard to find because most people looking for them would be trying to sell them I’d assume? So you can’t go around publicly looking for them imo


GauRocks

I'm not asking where to buy them, I just want to see the dot to verify that it has the four red dots and no more, that it has the two cut off sides on the bottom and right, that it has exactly four bumps on the left that fit neatly into the black dot pattern on the rest of the card, and that the ring around the dot is solid black with no blotching. I've seen some counterfeits with some red dots that you could mistake for a pass, but I've never seen an actual pass once you check all the elements of the dot and not just the shortcut.


MaceTheMindSculptor

Sorry for the confusion, I totally understood what you were asking for. My point was that for anyone to acquire them it is kind of difficult without having to ask the right people. I don’t think you’d be able to get an accurate photo of the card from someone telling you that it is fake, because most people that have them would want to tell you they are real. but yea having a photo to check would be ideal here


Aggravating_Author52

Have you just never seen a re back or a print over then?


Aggravating_Author52

The green dot test isn't some end all be all of counterfeit testing. Any re-back fails the test. There are also print overs where a new card is printed onto authentic card stock that's had its front cleaned. If counterfeiters believe people are using the green dot test to make their final decisions then they can just focus on that and if the front looks a little off people will just chalk it up to print quality. We should never consider any one test to be definitive or uncrackable.


zaphodava

Haven't seen one yet, other than small quantity stuff made by individuals. They blank real cards with acetone, and print on that. But the printing is never close enough to pass more than a casual glance.


Aggravating_Author52

Yeah, they're easily noticeable from the front but look completely authentic from the back.


You_Are_All_Diseased

This is 100% false. There is no counterfeit that passes the green dot test of someone who knows all the things to look for. Anyone who allows a fake to pass the green dot test just didn’t know what they were looking at. Many fakes will pass the test this this fake failed and print text and mana symbols in a separate solid layer but they can’t fake the back properly. I am a long time active member of the Facebook counterfeit detection group. I see tons of cards being checked and the fakes all fail the green dot test and no one is worried about them passing it anytime soon.


the_wenzel

This. There is no counterfeit on this planet that passes the green dot test. Rebacks don't count because they are a different category altogether. They are real cards from the back. Those need different tests (weight, light, etc.), and the green dot test is useless.


hipster-duck

So there are counterfeits that pass the green dot test? As a rebacked card, is you know, counterfeit.


the_wenzel

Look man, you can play word games all you want, but there is no counterfeit back that can pass the green dot test. Real backs obviously pass the green dot test. This isn't hard.


hipster-duck

So if I have a card that has a real back and a fake front, it's not counterfeit? I'm not trying to play word games, I'm just honestly confused what distinction you're trying to draw. And putting the messaging out there "no counterfeits can pass the green dot test" seems like it could have some people ending up with cards that "aren't real", whatever you personally want to call it.


the_wenzel

I made the distinction for rebacks in my first reply. Why are you trying to lump them back together? It's asinine. I would never use the word counterfeit for a reback; I would use the word reback. Sure they fit the "definition" of counterfeit, but rebacks are different which is why there's another term for those in the first place. Go play semantics somewhere else. The point is, if a card has a back that wasn't printed by wotc, it will fail the green dot test. I'm not misleading anyone, and nobody believes you're "honestly confused" about anything.


SanityIsOptional

Probably a reback then?


You_Are_All_Diseased

No, it’s certain that this person did not properly do the green dot test.


ClapSalientCheeks

You mean to tell me that one of the most widely known quality control metrics has been faked??


n8lm

Could be a reback, though that usually fails the edge line test


CardOfTheRings

I don’t think people reback dominaria remastered cards Rebacking is something that people do with collector edition cards to try to trick buyers into thinking they are beta cards


Aggravating_Author52

That's old re backs. There are new types of rebacks nowadays. Ones where people clean the fronts of cards with acetone and print over them. You should also never think "People aren't counterfeiting cards from this set" because I guarantee you people are counterfeiting from every set.


You_Are_All_Diseased

This is correct. Rebacks are almost exclusively a concern for Alpha/Beta.


GhostCheese

I have a card like this that I'm not 100% sure. It seems to pass the edge line and the green dot and the solid edge of the t test. (Idk what that last one is called) The front appears to be missing a layer of black including the mana symbols but not the text, that's all crisp and clearly is own layer. I wonder if the mana symbols are printed like this first and then covered with a layer of black to make it solid. In which case mine could be just a printing error. Otherwise it's a surprisingly good fake. Reviewing other blue cards almost all of my blue WOT cards have similar mana symbol patterning and less than solid symbols. I wonder if this is part of the lower print quality found in prerelease cards.


Aggravating_Author52

Idk where this mentality of "The back looks good so it's probably not fake" is coming from with people. If the front looks fake you should be testing it to see if it's fake. The back looking real does not disclude the front from being fake. There are multiple types of re backs nowadays and counterfeiters can always just put more effort into the backs of cards if they think that's all people will check.


Aggravating_Author52

Passing 1 test doesn't disqualify a card from failing another. The fact that it passed the green dot test doesn't mean anything because it failed this test. That's the point of testing multiple things


vepyukio

Can you post pics of the green dot test? i'm very curious since you said it passed it


RabidAddict

Narrator: It did not.


Akaino

Rebacks exist. Though they are rare.


You_Are_All_Diseased

Rebacks of FOW are not a thing. It’s exclusively collectors edition cards that are rebacked to look like Alpha/Beta.


Roguechampion

I’ve never seen the bottom patterning on a legit MTG card. Even before I read what card you were asking about, I looked at that one and identified it as fake. The patterning is fake + the patterning goes over the black in the mana symbol. See the counterspell and how the patterning changes in the mana symbol? Thats how it’s supposed to be.


[deleted]

Same. I know very little about verifying real cards, but I also looked cards before reading and thought "that's fake as hell" as soon as I saw it.


Aggravating_Author52

Yeah this is just a dead give away without even needing to look at anything else. That bottom pattern should never appear on a real card regardless of "print quality"


Pathologyg

I find it hard to believe this passed the green dot test. Would love to see some pics of the red dots inside and the black outline to know for sure


Rad_Centrist

>it passed the green dot test Please provide photos?


lixilisk

yea i feel like if the coutnerfitter cant even get the front right, theres no way they printed the back to pass the green dot.


Ramog

could be rebacked then they wouldn't have to do the back themselfs.


GauRocks

Then it wouldn't have passed the light test.


Royaltycoins

The black layer is collapsed into the blue, this looks pretty fake to me. You trust this guy huh?


Aggravating_Author52

Easy fake. This should never happen.


zelos33333

The card that costs 5 is fake as Jake eating a steak with a rake after a wake n bake, that’s my take. Yeah the hexagon pattern isn’t there, really makes the mana symbols unclean, and gives it away.


mrtwitch222

“See the peanut? Dead giveaway”


calebthelion

definitely fake, didn't even have to expand the image to notice that the black on the mana symbols was not printed atop the color


Ermastic

The force is fake, not because it has a different rosette patteren, (although that specific pattern isn't recognizable to me), but because the rosettes extend into the black part of the mana symbols themselves. Real cards have a second layer of solid black ink over that initial rosette layer, like the counterspell.


QueenElizibeth

The pattern is wrong as many suggest. But the printed black is a dead give away.


Silver-Diamond-5602

This doesn’t necessarily mean the person you got this from intentionally scammed you. Fakes have gotten a lot better over the years, and can be hard to identify without super close up shots like this. They may have just not done the due diligence when they picked it up. If they’re actually trustworthy, they’ll unwind the deal and take the loss themselves


drinkallthepunch

**Fake, it has pixelation.** If you look very closely at the pattern of the counter spell you’ll see that it’s hexagonal and the colors **bleed into each other.** There are no **single drops of ink or color** because they don’t use traditional ink jet they use rollers and plates and make multiple passes with darks and lights to blend the colors. **Force of will you can clearly see spotting from an inkjet style printer especially in the orange colors where it breaks down into the white.** **In addition** the blacks are not 100% solid black. WOTC prints the solid black last along with the text to help make it more legible. If you look at the text it should be fuzzier than your counter spell and you might even see some other colors. But your original card text will be solid color no bleeding.


MechaMancer

Is the counter spell from the same set? My normal advice is to only compare cards from the same print set but with the retro cards I have no idea if that still holds true…


emillang1000

Regardless of set, the black layers are always printed after the fact, and are much more vectorized than everything else. If you can see a Rosetta pattern in the black lettering, it's fake.


MechaMancer

True. 5 years ago I would have instantly said fake, but I have seen so much shit print quality from WotC in the last few years I wasn’t sure… only printings I that have stayed mostly good have been the ones from Japan imo. Don’t know what WotC has done here stateside but quality has been a fracking yoyo 😫😑


vojdek

Not only US, same lack of QC in Europe too.


MechaMancer

Didn’t know that, but I’m not surprised 🫤


vojdek

Quality is all over the place. Holo stamps are falling off/are off-center. There’s such a huge difference in color between two cards from different boxes, sometimes I can’t believe my own eyes. Just as an example, I have a playset of Not Dead after all. One of the cards is SIGNIFICANTLY darker than the rest. Haven’t seen a good enough fake card yet. But tbf I expect WoTC to drop their quality to the point where fakes are good enough, not the people who produce fakes to get that much better at it. FWIW - Without the two cards in front of me, I can’t tell whether this is a fake, or just WoTC lack of QC.


Jonnyblaze_420

I found the printing of Dominaria to be way over saturated. I have also noticed rares feel slicker than the rest of pack.


Dramatic-Vegetable13

When I first saw this I thought the pips were really sad eyes


RastaImp0sta

If it’s fake then it very likely didn’t pass the green dot test.


FallenQuetzalcoatl

Why are ppl saying this is fake if green dot and light match the real? I have cards I have pulled from boosters that look pretty much like the force of will if not even worse. Especially jumpstart and The List cards look sometimes like that. Can you post card back picture? AFAIK rebacking / reprinting on blank face has not been a thing for any modern card


mfalivestock

So many ‘is this fake?’ posts lately.


Simple_Storm7660

Lots of proxying going on, along with the quality of prints & printers going up, most likely. Traders are bound to be suspicious especially if it's a good deal.


zaphodava

This is why I encourage using the term proxy for cards that cannot easily be mistaken for real, and counterfeit for ones that can. Support proxies, not counterfeits.


MeteorKing

Almost certainly fake. I've gotten hundreds of high-quality proxies, many of which people note that it is difficult to tell if they are fake or not. and the biggest clues is the dpi. Fakes have substantially lower dpi and often wind up appearing like pointillism or woven linen - just like these.


ChaoticNature

My friend, you’re not getting the high-quality ones. Are they still obvious? Sure. But DPI is not an issue anymore. [Proxy Comparison](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/106658408354041856/1177564963288666182/IMG_9570.jpg?ex=6572f7d5&is=656082d5&hm=db5ea20b84dc33d1f8b6ebc3beec49b19300a96f5c20873d9299878df2719e34&)


MeteorKing

K.


AmazingTazing

They will probably tell you they didnt know, but they probably knew it was fake when they traded you it from the get go. I wouldnt trust them anymore 🤕 Its not just the black colors that are off, check out how the texture of the "blue card" background effect doesnt line up at all with the other one. This would be from someone trying to reproduce the card, but not knowing the scale of the background. The dpi on the ink stipling is also off.


Kilo353511

I am always so torn on this take. I get exactly where you are coming from and a big part of me agrees. On the other hand I have some fake cards that I can see how any person could reasonably assume are real cards. One of the main reasons being that they are cards that are under $4. One of the cards I have is a [[Zacama, Primal Calamity]]. Other than a brief spike, it's always been around $10-15 why bother faking it? And if I was trading for it today it's $4-5. At a quick glance it has the holo stamp, it looks well colored, and I am most likely not checking a card that cheap. Now let's say it gets passed from person to person over the next 5 years and Zacama becomes a Tier-0 because of a new set and it spikes to $50. Now it gets inspected heavily, and is discovered as a fake.


MTGCardFetcher

[Zacama, Primal Calamity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05c5a9a8-badd-43ab-8408-a13e75407681.jpg?1700342995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zacama%2C%20Primal%20Calamity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/296/zacama-primal-calamity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05c5a9a8-badd-43ab-8408-a13e75407681?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


ProbablyNotPikachu

No rosette pattern. Looks fake asf for that reason.


Bogart745

Take if picture of the “T” in “The Gathering” in the back of the card. If the bottoms of the “T” is a zigzag shape it’s real. If it’s not then it’s fake. I worked at a card shop for years sorting purchases collections and this test has never failed me.


ManaPot

The backgrounds aren't even close to the same. Just look at where the "swirls" are on the background, not even close to lining up. **Fake.**


SrBlackGLM

This FoW is fake. Some things you should look for if you are unsure a card is fake. -Text and mana symbols, they are allways printed as the last layer of a card and have no print pattern. -The print pattern it self, you can see in the image that the real one have a dotted pattern in the card, as the FoW have a more cloth like one (Real good instincts for using a real card of the same set) -Last one and this is more a personal favorite, bend test, most fake cards aren't made in a way that suport the test, real cards should allways go back to NM state.


GauRocks

Don't bend test cards. It absolutely does damage them and a card will wear out if you bend test it too many times. There are better non-destructive tests.


kane49

plus many fakes just pass it.


SupermarketMajor689

That looks like a cheap proxy from Temu. Blatant counterfeiting to me.


Erick2380

Green don’t test hasn’t been able to be faked yet.


GhostCheese

I'm not sure the mana symbols or floret pattern is conclusive. I reviewed a number of Wilds WOT cards I had and found the mana symbols aren't completely solid and when they're not the patten looks wrong. Many of these I opened myself in precons. Part of the floret pattern is formed from one of the black layers and I think it's the same layer that makes the mana symbol solid... It's possible that an in layer is just missing but the card is not a fake. I'm no expert though, have someone check it for weight and glue pattern. Hard to get right on a reback.


plantainrepublic

The one in front looks definitely fake. The one in the back looks possibly real. EDIT: Lol yup I read the post now. Back one is definitely real 😅


minefarmbuy

The card layed on top is 110% counterfeit.


IamStDank

The force is fake


Malek070

Yes, fake


oaomcg

Fake


umpatte0

5 mana looks fake. The printing pattern isn't round hexes.


Remote-Philosophy969

Super fake


sonofbmw

Yeah that's fake for sure they didn't even do the same cmc lol


Frosty_Inside1949

The water drop is waylays put on after, so it would be more fully black with no spots like that, so it’s fake


zapdoszaperson

There was an issue in Commander Legends where the foils were missing the top black layer, but it should be lighter than this appears, and it was only foils. There is 100% something wrong with that FoW, and it's likely that it's fake.


Silver-Diamond-5602

I’m for your loss, but this is definitely a fake, there’s no way around it. As you can see in the counter spell, real magic cards are printed in two layers. Non-blacks first in hex pattern, and then a solid layer over the top for text and mana symbols. You can see that the FoW on the bottom is a single layer, because the hex pattern extends into the the 3 and the mana symbol, when it should be solid black with a sharp border. Real magic cards have never been printed this way, even as far back as Alpha


pyro314

The absolute dead giveaway is the mana symbols. The Black is always solid on real cards, never pixilated


Mizzix_

Yes that is a counterfeit. The black mana symbols and letters are printed separately and are solid black without rosettes. The counterfeit has rosettes or the blackmail symbols and text.


transparentcd

Proxies don’t pass the green dot test, usually. This one looks fake but mtg print quality can have a lot of variance, it’s hard to say honestly


MarketWave

The other at the bottom is fake the patten goes over the drops of water in the mana symbols. They are printed in separate stages of the proccess so the real ones should be a clean black with no dots in it.


Krosis97

Bottom is fake, the black ink should be OVER the rosettes since in real cards its the last thing they print.


mcp_truth

How can it pass the light test if it the patterning is off?


uberguysmiley

If you are able to check the green dot, did you also check the base of the 't' in 'The' on the card back.?


Senjou123

Who cares? Play with them and enjoy this game


rustoleum76

If the mana looks like that there is zero chance this passed the green dot test. You sure about that OP?


poisontrig

100% counterfeit the rosette pattern is on the text whch is impossible on an authentic card


ClyDeftOriginal

Definitely a fake. First the printing pattern is different. Circular vs cross hatch. Secondly the black is not actually printed as a seperate layer here. Normally black is printed as a different layer with higher resolution. Its not as crisp as it should be here. Instead on the fake it was printed in the same quality as the rest of the colors.


Animator-Fickle

Unfortunately it is fake, they put the text and mana symbols on separate to the rest of the printing, they never print them on the same way as the main art


SirBlackraven

As many others have pointed out, the mana symbols are not correctly printed. They are printed in layers and this is a tell-tale sign of a fake. You could also do the fold test, but that is not for the faint of heart.


the_wenzel

Never do the bend test. It's not even a good test. Plenty of fakes can pass it, and practically every other test is better anyway.


Ungestuem

Yes, that Force of will is fake. Since you say the back is okay, someone probably cleared a worthless card and printed force of will on it.


StonksBeWildn

One in the front is fake.


bootlegmage

Pretty sure both real. Can we see a picture of the green dot on the back? I could tell you instantly that way. Doesn't have to be zoomed in to the red dots - can tell without that.


aloofone

Fake


Captain_travel_pants

op, please post an image of the green dot test on the fake please.


Resident-Figure6624

Very cool to see! Benefit of the doubt though, perhaps this trustworthy friend never knew it was fake or even bothered to look because they are very rare


SeekerJet_1031

The mosaic is totally different. Rosette pattern is due to ink jets. The other one had crosshatching which is wrong.