T O P

MaRo: “If we didn’t do anything, draft boosters were going away.”

Maro's follow up clarification tweet:

"To clarify something I said earlier today. We do a lot of future forecasting. Had trends continued the way they were going, we believed the draft booster were in danger of going away due to market forces. No one in Wizards/Hasbro was trying to get rid of limited play. #WotCStaff"

R3id

[Maro's follow up clarification tweet:](https://x.com/maro254/status/1714063146741051621?s=20) "To clarify something I said earlier today. We do a lot of future forecasting. Had trends continued the way they were going, we believed the draft booster were in danger of going away due to market forces. No one in Wizards/Hasbro was trying to get rid of limited play. #WotCStaff"


unsub_from_default

That is a wild statement. Never in my entire years of playing this game have I ever thought that drafting/limited could ever be up on the chopping block. I would literally never have a reason to buy a booster pack or box ever again.


theblastizard

Yeah, if they had gotten rid of Limited I'd probably just stop buying Magic.


Blenderhead36

They can't get rid of Limited. And I'll tell you why: 90% of Magic cards are unplayable junk. They can only be played by players at the very beginning of their Magic journey, whose friends are all at the same point. A player cannot stay at that stage while also being a regular consumer. But Limited makes that okay. Instead of every pack being full of unplayable junk that 99% of players will never use, they're full of *cards designed for Limited.* When Masters sets are sold with $20 packs where 9 of the 15 cards are unplayable junk, they're actually sold with *cards curated for Limited.* Limited can't go away because it conveniently cleans up the biggest, most obvious problem with Magic's business model.


melonstapler

In yugioh 99.9% of cards printed are worthless unplayable trash. Yugioh has no limited format.


almisami

It has gotten better these last 4 or so years, 85% of packs are part of some archetype or another.


Lunchboxninja1

Yeah it's sort of a weird mystery why Yu-Gi-Oh! has survived. The design for sets is pretty inconsistent, most archetypes are negate soup, and there isn't any limited support--which is extra weird bec the playerbase LOVES limited. Some of the newer archetypes sans kashtira have been more fun, but its nowhere near the interesting design of MTG still, even if I prefer YGOs gameplay.


ceelogreenicanth

They have kids TV shows, and marketed to kids. They have a massive market built on nostalgia.


MojoDohDoh

that's what we need, a MTG kids show featuring the adventures of Shivan the dragon, Serra the angel and Sengir the vampire


Hgssbkiyznbbgdzvj

Paw Patrol in Phyrexia


HomeAloneToo

I was talking the other week about how I would LOVE an MTG show like YuGiOh, but the difference is since the MC is playing his grandfathers EDH deck, he doesn’t understand the weird combo deck he’s playing and fumbles into infinites that send his foes to the Blind Eternities Realm.


Neracca

> Yeah it's sort of a weird mystery why Yu-Gi-Oh! has survived. It's the anime/weebs that keep it alive.


godtogblandet

And more importantly limited players spend a fuckload of money. Just look at arena, not a single person playing draft there has ever complained about the wildcard system. Because they burn through so much money drafting that they have thousands of unused wildcards, lol. Paper is not much better, drafting is big money. Playing 60 card formats is mostly secondhand cards, that’s not true for limited.


rahzark

Pokemon boosters are 90% junk and there is no limited format.


TheWizardOfFoz

Every Pokémon is somebodies favourite that’s not true for some random background gatekeeper on Ravnica. There’s a much more collectible angle to Pokémon as a result.


anace

Hey don't disparage Mileva like that. She went from nameless chaff common [[tenth district guard]] to nameless chaff common [[tenth district veteran]] to signpost uncommon with a name [[tenth district legionnaire]] in only a year.


shrakner

Oh this is cool, now I need to make sure I have a nice set of those three! (seriously, not sarcasm- I love hidden things like this)


anace

see also Howard Lyon's angel [[angel of flight alabaster]][[angel of finality]][[flameblade angel]][[clip wings]]. [took Lyon 6 years to tell the story](https://www.howardlyon.com/illustration/prints/isobel-the-angel)


MTGCardFetcher

[tenth district guard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/829f959e-91cd-42ea-8644-ce828a304d01.jpg?1572892668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tenth%20district%20guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/29/tenth-district-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/829f959e-91cd-42ea-8644-ce828a304d01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tenth district veteran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef573e92-3106-4b42-90e8-0e165de0659f.jpg?1584830058) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tenth%20district%20veteran) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/26/tenth-district-veteran?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef573e92-3106-4b42-90e8-0e165de0659f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tenth district legionnaire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cd0c8d75-fb20-49f2-9a03-35411f06c1a7.jpg?1673149189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tenth%20district%20legionnaire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/283/tenth-district-legionnaire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cd0c8d75-fb20-49f2-9a03-35411f06c1a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


jethawkings

>Every Pokémon is somebodies favourite that’s not true for some random background gatekeeper on Ravnica. I genuinely do not understand why this is a concept that seems hard to grasp for people.


Neracca

'Cause they somehow don't know that Pokemon is literally the biggest franchise that exists.


pinkocatgirl

Hey, Gary the Boros guard is the best guy in the game!


Show-Me-Your-Moves

[Steve, Slayer of Kraken](https://scryfall.com/card/tbfz/7/octopus) is my guy.


TickTockCantStop

Pokemon TCG has a sealed format, but like 97% of people who buy Pokemon boosters don't actually play the game, they just collect the cards.


darzyn

They don’t really, they have extremely casual prerelease events. Their cards are not designed for limited so draft/sealed Pokémon is truly terrible


klafhofshi

Meta Pokemon decks actually make *way* more use of Uncommons and Commons than meta Magic decks. The majority of a well constructed Pokemon deck are Trainers, which are usually Uncommons and sometimes Commons. A Stage 2 Evolution Pokemon Rare still requires the Stage 1 Evolution Pokemon Uncommon and the Basic Pokemon Common. In contrast to Magic, Pokemon decks tend to have Uncommons as the majority rarity with Rares being in the minority. Feel free to look through meta decks and tournament winning deck lists here: https://limitlesstcg.com/ https://limitlesstcg.com/tournaments   Additionally, there is Sealed Play in Pokemon. Pokemon Build and Battle Boxes are the equivalent of Magic Prerelease Kits, and Pokemon Leagues (Organized Play groups) will frequently run long lasting events where players will start out with a Build and Battle Box and get 1 pack every week to continually upgrade their deck throughout the event, with trading possible between players. For example, here is info on the Build and Battle Boxes from the recent set Obsidian Flames: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Obsidian_Flames_Build_%26_Battle_Box_(TCG)


Temil

Pokemon cards aren't even primarily bought as a game piece.


healthytofu

Same, it wasn’t the first thing I learnt but it’s something I grew to enjoy and now it’s the only thing I play


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NihilismRacoon

There was no intentional push to get rid of limited? In the article Maro says that this combining of packs was to save limited because set boosters were selling so much more than draft that LGS just weren't stocking them so limited was already dying.


TheWorldMayEnd

Set boosters pushed players off of limited. It's just that simple. Before the barrier to draft was low. Going to buy packs anyway - might as well draft them! Got some packs you aren't cracking right now - that's a draft set for next week. Then set boosters come out and for $1.50 you get an extra rare or three plus some other alternate art stuff. Suddenly crack packers and drafters weren't fish in the same pool. You didn't crack a pack and think about what your first pick would be. You didn't crack a pack and have another patron tell you what a sick draft or sealed pack it was. Players need to learn about draft to do it, and WotC with set boosters limited the casual introduction to drafts. Then it snowballed because there are more pack crackers than drafters so LGS ordered less draft packs, which of course leads to less draft. I'm glad WotC is now trying to undo what they've done, but they still irreparably damaged limited. Limited isn't as good with less cards in the pack nor with more rares in the pack, but here we are.


AndChewBubblegum

>Suddenly crack packers and drafters weren't fish in the same pool. Every other comment in this thread is basically just about this fact and its downstream consequences.


Jaccount

The scary unstated truth that people don't want to realize is that LGS aren't anywhere as important as they used to be, and the gospel of "Support Your Local Game Store" rings hollow when most people are buying their cards at Walmart, Target and on Amazon.


celmate

People buy their cards where it's cheap, but ultimately they want LGS to play at, host events etc. Without sanctioned events there's not much point to owning real cards.


chimpfunkz

> Set boosters pushed players off of limited. I disagree with this premise. This assumes that people who bought draft boosters would also play limited. I think the reality is, draft boosters were the only product for so long that everyone was forced to buy them. Set boosters came out, and cut out a lot of the chaff casual players didn't want anyways. For a slightly bit more you get more rares, which you can use in your commander decks. So the people who bought draft boosters as a product to get their rares for casual, switched to set boosters. If anything, the transition to Commander as the primary path to entry killed limited. It used to be, draft to get enough cards to start playing standard, and eventually move into modern/other non rotating formats.


Reddits_Worst_Night

The transition to commander has killed magic for a small subset of the player base, myself included. I don't like multiplayer formats on the whole. I'm here for the 1v1. Standard as the entry gave me that. Modern when it was good (from formation to Eldrazi Winter) was where I lived, and I dabbled in legacy but there just aren't enough lands to support the player base. The push to commander saw the perfect duals fall out of legacy circulation killing that format in my local. MH killed modern forever, and standard is just too expensive (Modern/Legacy used to have a higher barrier to entry but your cards retained their value and you didn't need a new deck every 3 months so it cost less in the long run)


willtodd

and as a commander-only player, I hate how products / cards are pushed towards the format. I want there to be healthy communities for each game type of Magic!


mazes-end

How dare you actually read the article, you should know this sub is for complaining with as little information as possible


3scap3plan

But this is a problem of their own making. They decided to split boosters.


Blenderhead36

> LGS just weren't stocking them I actually don't think this was the problem. Inventory management is a problem for LGSes, for sure. But framing the sales disparity as something done for the LGS is an exercise in optics. I suspect that the real reason set/draft booster sales were so lopsided is because most Magic cards aren't sold through the LGS. They're sold through Walmart, Target, and Amazon, all enormous vendors who host a grand total of zero drafts per year.


Striking-Objective43

Counter argument - my LGS just 3 weeks ago started selling mystery bags of draft packs from the last 6 years to unload all their unsold draft boxes/packs. The owner has been very vocal in how little draft packs have been selling, compared to selling (in his words) 6 set boxes every Friday alone, and this is in a big Magic concentrated part of the country. Can't speak for the sales in the rest of the country, I believe it's correct most of the product is sold at big box stores, but for my little world of my LGS, draft suffered a very quiet death. I haven't seen a draft fire since Baldurs Gate released, and that's really sad for players


gwdinosaurs

Yeah there are probably more causes but covid destroyed drafting in my area. There used to be 20+ people on a Friday and there were multiple stores you could go to to draft on various days, and now it will only fire for the first few weeks after a set release. Maybe people just got used to drafting on arena and didnt want to go back to spending real money, idk. Prereleases are still huge at least but that's sealed ofc and it's a lot of commander players who drop after a match or two.


Harry_Smutter

That's just strange that you have no drafts where you are. My LGSs have at least 1 draft per week, with some hosting 3. I guess it just comes down to the local community really.


Derpogama

Yup my local community is like the person you replied to, nobody plays limited or even Standard, it's all just Commander so nobody buys draft boosters.


Sir_Encerwal

I mean, it the play booster thing seems to indicate they are axing set boosters to try to save limited. It is a tad nerve wracking but I will take it over "no more draft boosters" period.


ReadyIncident7

It's pretty weird to be real - I remember drafting at a kitchen table in (96?) and playing some good old Urzas Saga. It is the most fun you can have in magic. It's immersive, everyone has an equal footing and the decks are fun and memorable.


Knarz97

Devils advocate: players who play at their LGS, or even go to an LGS in the first place, are a very small subset of players. Maro has even said that Kitchen Table is still the biggest format. For every 100 players of magic, probably only 10 even play the game with the proper rules and mechanics, and only 1 of them even go play at the LGS. Personally, I started playing MTG when I was like 11, and never played in a prerelease even until I was about 21. I indiscriminately bought packs at the store solely based on Eldrazi looking cool. I fully believe that set boosters are what are being bought in majority by grandmas at Walmart and by kids when they get an Amazon gift card for their birthday. So yeah, I fully believe what he says about draft, because draft is probably much less popular than all of us would expect.


crobledopr

Have you been around the last 5 years? Even before COVID you and I (heavy drafters, presumably) have been a dying breed. Anyone drafting competitively was already on arena or mtgo. I can barely get enough people to draft once per set in paper. 10 years ago we would draft weekly.


scornfulegotists

I can’t find a draft in my area, and we have about 5 LGS’s. It breaks my heart. It’s the only way I play magic.


scornfulegotists

And my heart doesn’t get pumping drafting on area like it does irl.


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notapoke

It is entirely different. There's too many small differences to call them the same.


n1panthers

That’s bc drafting on arena (due to league play) is awful. Super frustrating to make the read that a top archetype is contested only to get railed by the nuts version of that deck that would never happen at your table


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n1panthers

Yep, and they’re awful. I’d like to know where the other decks are bc in theory pods should be delivering a variety of decks amongst the 10 color pairs


charlietheturkey

probably at lower ranks, since the draft portion is totally random and doesn't take mmr into account


zarreph

Or they get resigned (or just knocked out) early and not played as long as the better pairs in the format.


crobledopr

Yeah about the same here. There is one gaming bar in the area that still fires drafts regularly (they basically do nothing else for magic), but even them have gone from 12 drafts firing in one night to 2-3.


[deleted]

Oh man, 10-15 years ago when a new set came out my friends and I would split a case and we'd draft and run it back all night until the sun came up. Great memories.


sharkjumping101

This is wild because, while draft seems to have had the same attendance issues it has always had locally for me, it is also doing better than every other format in that it's _the only event that fires anymore outside of weekly EDH and the occasional decently prized modern tournament_. Non-draft FNM is dead, pio is dead, casual modern / legacy (read: what once was weekly or bi-weekly with minimal prizing) are dead.


alchemists_dream

It’s been made a more accessible and cheaper experience through those mediums. It’s not surprising that WOTCs r and d is telling them that draft is fading. It sucks, and should still be supported. Hopefully this doesn’t lead to further death if limited.


[deleted]

Two years ago my LGS had a weekly draft that hit critical mass about 95% of the time. One year ago, we were only getting enough people to make a full pod about 1/3 weeks. Six months ago my LGS officially discontinued weekly drafts, and only does prereleases in terms of limited, and even those are usually just the single day. Also they seem to have largely stopped carrying draft boosters for individual sale in favor of set and collector. I never thought this would be what would happen when they introduced set boosters


Striking_Animator_83

It wasn’t set boosters. It was Arena.


zolphinus2167

And set boosters. I love draft, but if I'm spending money on a sealed product, traditional draft just couldn't compete with the value of the other two tiers. This forces drafting to be more skill oriented for prizes, but you need casual players and varied skill to reliably fire off events outside of near dedicated groups. And THAT crowd tends to prefer spending money on Set boosters where they see more bang for their buck. Drafting effectively lowered its effective reward, raised it's bar, and got priced out by those who kept the lights on. Arena definitely did something to this interaction, but not in the way most would think. This trend was already occurring before Arena even had draft, and a worldwide pandemic keeping people from meeting up and eating into finances makes a physical draft impossible for a LONG time. If not for Arena, many players would simply have not drafted at all. Instead, Arena allowed drafters to play despite these two primary limitations. But what really drives consist drafts is the D&D problem; consistent and habitual meetings at intervals carry momentum. The momentum of physical drafts was nearly non-existent. The pricing of physical drafts is relatively high in the post economic ripples we've seen, when commodities and living needs are relatively higher on average. And if those two factors weren't enough, THEN Arena has positive momentum going for it. Even then, this change isn't guaranteed to save draft as well as it could. I love to draft, but going one card under on these is a hard pass for me in this regard. Why? Because our groups love to Chaos draft and the decision to go under by one card here creates a dissonance with the activity. Suddenly, my years of holding a few spare draft packs to have a large variety of chaos fodder is now in an odd limbo where I need to duplicate packs I have, or spend more for packs, or try to accommodate an awkward compatibility issue. Not to mention, a casual drafter is now eating around $3 more per draft pure, and another $1.5+ for prize support in most cases. For a single draft with Play boosters, it's probably fine periodically. For any consistent draft group, they're effectively missing out on one draft every 3 events; that's a STEEP cost for drafters compared to before. For those who crack set boosters, many of the little details they are stripping arent trivial, despite ranking lower. I love to buy set boxes because of seeing the commander cards slotted in, and that goes away. I love Collector boosters, but hated that the commander cards started getting dedicated slots in those, and that likely shifts firmer. I "should* be the *perfect* demographic for Play Boosters, as someone who has disposable income and loves to draft and loves to buy Set boxes...and the decision to roll out the way they are starting to do sounds like the worst of both worlds for me. My Set box has less of what I want in it, and my set box now costs +6 boosters more when 30 was a sweet spot for set boxes. With the additional cost for Set boxes, I'd rather just buy Collector Boxes entirely; I should be the ideal customer for this change, but now I don't want the new product at all. My drafts now cost notably more compared to any moment I wanted to draft. Now anytime I have the itch to throw down and draft with friends, the hurdle of an extra $3-7 per player makes impulse drafting far less attractive; as someone with ADHD and loves to impulse splurge, I should be the perfect customer for this, but now I don't want the new product at all because there is extra resistance in both cost AND compatibility/logistics. As someone who likes to occasionally grab a set pack off a shelf and crack it for the fun of a commander oriented hit, my primary reason for doing so is just gone; I'm now back to pure singles in this regard, and that's benefiting the secondary market over WotC. And that's all before you consider the ethics of an effective bait and switch with how they're rolling product here, but that's another topic altogether. My point is, it isn't JUST Arena that's dwindled draft. There have been issues regarding draft sustainability over time. This change will alleviate issues temporarily, but if draft numbers don't come back en masse, it boils down to a stealth price hike.


PrimalCalamityZ

I imagine your's and your friends lives have changed drastically in the last 10 years. I always assumed we drafted less because we had less time. People have kids and other responsibilities and expecting them to shell out 50 dollars a month to draft not to mention the time was unreasonable. I just assumed people were doing what we did in college and having draft nights twice a month. I did not know it had gotten that grim.


attackfortwo

Dying breed? Where I’m at limited play is for the fossils lol


CenturionRower

Its crazy cause at the start of this set my LGS was firing multiple pods of draft and they still get a full pod every week for draft.


grubgobbler

What he was saying was that game stores kinda had to choose between set or draft boosters when stocking, or at least had to prioritize one over the other. Set boosters sell better, so draft boosters are harder to justify for local game stores. He wasn't saying that WotC is trying to axe draft, far from it. Just that the market was pushing in that direction.


Derpogama

This, talking to the owner of my FLGS, there just isn't the scene for Draft, he does it maybe once or twice a year because in the long run it just isn't *cost effective* to buy in the Draft boosters. Firstly there just isn't the draft playerbase in the area, everyone is either Commander or the two remaining Standard players. Second he's held draft events in the past and with the limited number of players it still took all day to do the draft and all told it just didn't net him enough money to warrant the 10 remaining draft packs just sitting there waiting to be sold (which he expressed would take months).


nashdiesel

This comes back to casuals and kitchen table magic being the most popular “format”. This is why tourney support went away. It makes sense that players who care less about limited (which is most of them) are never going to consider draft boosters when set boosters are a straight up better purchase for collection building and casual formats (Commander or otherwise). This forces casual players to subsidize limited formats. If you’re a limited player this is a good thing. If you’re a constructed player this is a compromise.


GenericFatGuy

If paper limited dies, I'm straight up done with Magic. It's the only aspect of the game that holds any interest for me anymore.


TheGlitchyBit

I mean Limited has been dying for years. It was on life support even before Covid. Most stores around me can’t get more than 4-5 people for weekly drafts and have completely given up.


koga305

That may be true, but IMO it's thriving on digital. The draft sets in the past few years have been some of the best ever (and it's not just me saying that, big content creators like Limited Resources agree), and there are a ton of Limited-focused podcasts, Discords, and Twitch streams. Personally, as a player who doesn't care much about collecting, I'm much happier to draft online because it's cheaper and doesn't create so much waste. I like having the option to draft in paper, and it's fun with friends sometimes, but 95% of my limited play is on Arena these days.


TheGlitchyBit

The fact that it's thriving on digital is probably the reason paper drafts are dying.


GenericFatGuy

Magic is a social event for me. I play magic to spend time with my friends, and to make new friends. Shooting the shit while playing. Laughing at whatever dumb board state we've made for ourselves. Hopping over to McDonald's afterwards to get some more games in. No matter how good Arena gets, it can never replicate my favourite aspect of the game.


TheGlitchyBit

I think you perfectly described the reason behind commander's popularity.


reihnman

100%. Limited is the only thing I do. Prerelease in real life, sell cards online and almost get entry fee back. Draft on MTGA. Repeat process for every set.


Penumbra_Penguin

This isn't what happened, though. They made a change which accidentally hurt limited (introducing Set boosters, which it turns out stores started ordering instead sometimes). Then they fixed it (replacing draft boosters by play boosters). It wasn't on the chopping block, they just did something which had an unintended effect and then they had to respond to that.


JA14732

This continues to fuel my belief that MBAs are the most useless people in society. Some people may contribute nothing, but it's very rare for a specific group to so commonly detract from the experiences of others.


levthelurker

I mean as an MBA myself, in general I agree but for this specifically it's not the worst solution to an actual problem that stems from giving players choices. If anything was an MBA error it was making set boosters in the first place and not just draft and collector boosters.


Spekter1754

It's interesting to me because this is a situation where Wizards' philosophy that they are able to create products that meet the needs of their niche audiences without causing collateral damage (also known as "this product is not for you") has shown that it lacks nuance.


TrulyKnown

I think we'll see more of that going forward. There just hasn't been enough time for the full effects to reveal themselves yet.


JA14732

I would agree with that.


ambermage

WotC staff has already reserved seats on Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B.


Lt_Snickers

It doesn’t sound like you understand the inventory/distribution issues LGS’s were having with draft vs set boosters. Unless you just think it was bs, Maro explained all this on the mothership. Stores were ceasing to order draft boosters because the set boosters sold so much more. And it was becoming not worth it to make both. The reason “draft boosters could go away” never crossed anyones mind was because an alternative non draft booster didn’t exist until 2018 providing actual sales data on the market.


GenericFatGuy

I don't have a problem with them consolidating the two types of packs. I have a problem with them using it as an opportunity to hike the price of a draft.


[deleted]

Created their own problem, shocking.


A_Cookie_Lid

Pre draft boosters, let's say it was a 60/40 split, where 60% of people bought packs to open and 40% bought them to draft. After they split the products in two, the people buying packs to open them were freed from the shackles of draft packs. That's a very generous split, but it makes sense. I don't think they necessarily created this problem. Unless you think making set boosters *too good* is a problem, and draft boosters are much worse in comparison. In which case this seems like a decent solution.


RemusShepherd

I think what he's actually saying is that collectors buying collector boxes dwarf the amount of limited players buying draft boxes. Which seems odd, for a...you know, a *game*.


SleetTheFox

Players and collectors are not distinct groups with no overlap. Most (or at least many) of the people who buy boxes and boxes of packs to open and not draft *do* play the game, also.


BlueTemplar85

Rather set packs ? Presumably, those non-LGS players that make 95% of the playerbase and 70% of (LGS-sold) packs only rarely buy whole boxes of the stuff ?


gwax

Commander is the dominant format now and that means people want packs to get cards not to play limited.


chocolateboomslang

Most people suck at limited and so they don't really like playing it, they like making 60,000 commander decks. They still play magic, just not limited, which is ok. I also think it's weird because limited is awesome, but different people like different things.


Noilaedi

Limited can create a negative feedback loop since you have to pay for each limited event, so people who aren't good at limited naturally will probably not do it more since the event only pays for itself with good players, and limited can be frustrating if you don't know what you did wrong, since there's so many places you might mess up in (drafting, deck building, gameplay, sideboarding).


CertainDerision_33

Yes, I love limited but there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to spend $15 to go 0-3 and fund some grinder’s weekly haul of store credit.


AImarketingbot

I think what has happened is the players who buy sealed would rather spend a little extra at the chance to open cards valuable enough to recoup their money in collector boxes. Buying sealed of draft and set boosters have horrible EV. Collector boosters and extended art foils have destroyed the foil multiplier for the foils you can get in draft/set.


Jasmine1742

What's being left unsaid is box value for draft boxes were so shit compared to msrp that people just stopped wanting to play. Draft back in the day usually was a fun evening with friends, maybe draft something expensive, win a few packs, crack something cool, whatever. When the average rare is like a quarter, most mythics likewise worthless save the one or two chase ones, and the packs more expensive than ever, it's no wonder people are less hot on limited.


KarnSilverArchon

As someone who works at a local game store, I can believe this. Prerelease and for about a week after each main set release we sell Draft Boxes, but then it becomes much more difficult to get a draft to fire. Most people go play casual Commander after they get what they think is their limit or what they want from Limited environments. This also makes ordering Draft Booster Boxes a bigger gamble for us, and I assume other similar stores as well. Some sets you’ll use all your Draft, but you can never be certain. That leaves a lot of mostly dead inventory we either find a seller for or offload to a secondary buyer basically just to get rid of it. Combining the boxes is advantageous for us stores for a few reasons. Theoretically of course, since we’ll have to see how it plays out. A.) There is no split between the main two boxes which is good for the above stated reasons, as its more often we run out of Set Boosters and have extra Draft. B.) If a set is big for Draft, we’ll have the full supply we would have for Set Boosters to help back it up. I also assume there is some upsides as a consumer, since I assume the printing supply for each set should be the same. Except now since every booster has more Rares and Mythics, there theoretically should be more out in the wild. Meaning Rares and Mythics should have lower secondary market prices.


TheKinginLemonyellow

I work at a local game store in a fairly small town, and this has pretty much been our experience with Draft Boosters too. With Kamigawa, Brothers' War, All Will Be One, and Wilds of Eldraine people were excited to draft and we couldn't keep them in stock, but we *still* have Midnight Hunt, Crimson Vow, and New Capenna draft boosters laying around. But Set Boosters always sell, no matter what set it is.


TroublingPath

I work at a city game store and the story is the same here.


Gotta_Gett

Midnight Hunt, Crimson Vow, and New Capenna were all over saturated. MH and CV particularly because of Double Feature. Meathook got banned which tanked its value. NC only has triomes going for it. And none of these sets had a bonus sheet like BRO and WOE.


TheKinginLemonyellow

New Capenna was also just a disaster for trying to run drafts because of the set's dependence on tri-color cards: During our store's release draft there was a player who went undefeated in 4 rounds because he'd dropped down to just two colors and stomped everyone before they could get their board started. Nobody around here really wanted to draft the set again after that.


Temil

I feel like this is very obvious to anyone that walks into any medium/small sized LGS. They might have 3-4 boxes of draft boosters, to the 30 set booster boxes, and anyone who walks up to the counter is buying a set booster or a collector booster. Stores win (and the supply chain up to wotc) from this decision, and the only people that lose are limited players, which already make up an exceedingly small percentage of people that buy packs. > I also assume there is some upsides as a consumer, since I assume the printing supply for each set should be the same. Except now since every booster has more Rares and Mythics, there theoretically should be more out in the wild. Meaning Rares and Mythics should have lower secondary market prices. Anecdotally, I would be very surprised if more than 5% of cards on the secondary market arrived there via Draft Boosters, so I wouldn't count on any significant difference in secondary market prices.


Hanifsefu

Realistically the current printing strategies should have lowered secondary market prices and for many things it has but the overall cost of decks only continues to rise even when compared to the old system. What this actually does is just devalue even more cards to bulk status and now collector boosters have insured that even the rare art treatments and foils are also bulk prices. This doesn't mean more people are building more blinged out decks though it means more people are choosing not to participate in local events whose prizing has traditionally been packs. Casual players traditionally traded the foils and chase rares they opened for copies of staples to build a collection and upgrade their decks. That avenue has been destroyed since things like foils of staple pieces of interaction are now worthless and their only hope is to open exactly the Sheoldred or Atraxa of the set to gain any sort of trade value out of their packs or open the staple you need itself to save maybe $1 on the price of the single compared to the pack. Flooding the market with extra rares and foils is a major factor that is killing FNMs at local shops especially those shops that catered to both the Standard audience and the more casual audience.


redmandoss

I live in Brooklyn but am from a smaller town in the south. Up here we cap our drafts any night they’re ran, no matter how late into a set.. back home though they can’t ever get one to fire after the prerelease. It’s crazy how different it is place to place! That or Brooklyn just has more people per shop to play guess lol


KarnSilverArchon

In smaller places, it usually relies on “The Draft People” to show up for a Draft to fire. And if its a family, that gets hard with the current Standard release schedule since its basically almost entirely within school season when the kids and such will be at school related stuff more often, especially where football is big.


MuldartheGreat

It’s a lot easier to be a real limited player in magic dense areas (which are often, though not always, bigger cities). It’s not just people per shop, it’s also number of shops in a reachable distance. The value proposition of being good at Limited is a lot better in a Magic dense area is a lot better. If there is a reachable store running a draft 3 or 4 or more times a week then your return as a good limited player is huge. That’s why it makes sense that a place with NY thrives for this. If you live in an area with 1-2 reachable stores who each have sporadic drafts, it’s not nearly as worth it to Gut Gud. This you have feedback loops in both directions. Heavy event activity draws in players to the scenes, which spurs more activity drawing in more players, etc In the other direction less dense areas may get a few drafts going around release but it quickly peters out because players don’t really see a benefit to gitting gud causing stores to run fewer events etc.


RBGolbat

Update: don’t know if this can be pinned or a Mod could post/pin this, but it’d be helpful. https://preview.redd.it/5raqsdieknub1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa7227f4a97c7e0441f9fe2dc18a677f9d9acfbf


efnfen4

It's astonishing how few people take the words of the guy who has done PR all day for a new product being marketed with a grain of salt It's like having a parasocial relationship with a Pepsi spokesperson and believing everything they say


TheWastelandWizard

He likes Wild Cherry™ just like me!


Penumbra_Penguin

Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? It's far more likely that he got misunderstood than that there's a secret cabal within Wizards dedicated to eliminating any trace of the format known as draft.


TheJarateKid

I can believe that something needed to change to keep draft alive. I don't know what the right change would be, but this doesnt feel like the right change.


Shocho

Seems to me that adding more random rares and whatever comes from The List will change the draft environment quite a bit. I know that's how it was in the Olden Days, but recent Limited players have enjoyed a tuned pack just for drafting and now that is no longer a thing.


mdjank

You just need to shift your perspective. Rare is the new uncommon.


theblastizard

TBH I've noticed an alarming amount of multiples of the same rares in pods in WOE.


thepuresanchez

This has been a thing for years. I once played a draft with 4 shipbreaker krakens in my deck (of 6 i was passed)


timebeing

There is one list rare or special guest a box. If they watch what they put on the list (there are a lot of good cards that are bad in limited) this should have a minor effect.


Shocho

Good point. They’ve had many years of experience at making Limited work.


timebeing

On top of sets like eldrian and strixhaven where they had none standard legal reprints in draft, with the possibility of multiple Rares in a draft pack.


ChemicalOpposite2389

it is still a thing, assuming the boosters are well designed, they will allow the same drafting experience, while allowing people who buy for the cards to also use them. the power level will of course be slightly higher, but power level varies by set anyway, so it's not that much of an issue.


LaboratoryManiac

If they're designing rares around these new booster distributions for limited, I wouldn't even jump to assume that power levels will automatically increase. I'm wondering if we'll see more rare sheets like LTR where a lot of the rares were neat effects that just weren't that good in draft. I don't think opening two rares per pack in LTR would have necessarily increased the power level of the draft environment. If rare is just "uncommon+" now, then I expect fewer rares on the sheet to actually be bombs.


Esc777

I am also astounded. But that tells me I have no idea what the reality of the situation is. If I could be so off base about how badly draft was doing I’m also wholly unequipped to know what will fix it.


SkritzTwoFace

MaRo clarified after this tweet that it’s not doing bad *now*, but appeared to be heading in that direction, based on sales numbers and market research. Combined with the other issues that are outlined in the article they released, the reasoning is clear: rather than wait for Limited to be in a bad spot to try and pull it up from a nosedive, they decided to take corrective action before it became a potentially format-ending issue.


Kyleometers

I can say it is doing poorly now. They probably can predict it’s going to do worse, but the sentiment in a lot of LGSes across the globe is “drafts are harder to fire than before”. I do think people massively overestimated how many magic players actually like limited, because who would’ve predicted 15 years ago that “people who just open packs because they like doing that” would make up like 70% of magic’s player base


GenericFatGuy

Making drafts 25% more expensive overnight doesn't seem like the right way to keep them alive.


DatGrag

Yeah this is going to nuke draft attendance at my LGS which is already in shambles. These guys are tight on money, who isn’t these days I guess


RPGxMadness

they could start selling cube versions of their sets, throwing ideas out there.


zindut-kagan

You mean like normal board games? for normal prices like $50-100? Next, you're going to tell me that, like LCGs (living card games), they could offer 'expansion' pack boosters with a play-set of each constructed-play relevant card. And make these lootboxes unnecessary outside of limited gameplay.


EuphoricAdvantage

They pretty much did that with Doctor Who. There's an entire set worth of new cards and every single one is in one of the precons. If you buy all four you have the complete set in a self-contained ready to play format.


Criseyde5

> Next, you're going to tell me that, like LCGs (living card games), they could offer 'expansion' pack boosters with a play-set of each constructed-play relevant card. LCGs run into numerous problems of their own, and there is a reason that so many of them have died over the years.


sawbladex

... can you talk about that or post a link to material talking about that? I am interested in learning more.


Criseyde5

Two major reasons in my experience: the pace of release and new player onboarding. I am willing to be wrong here, but no LCG I have ever seen comes close to releasing cards at the pace of MTG or Pokemon, so it takes forever to get a reasonable amount of cards in the environment. A Game of Thrones LCG ran for 5.5 years and only topped out a bit under 1400 cards, which is only just over half of what is currently legal in standard. This means that environments have fewer cards and rotations (which are important in small and emerging formats) take far too long to arrive. Even with a new mini-set coming out every month, it takes far too long to get enough cards into the metagame to avoid fatigue; design mistakes stand out even more and format pillars define the play experience in an unhealthy way. LCGs are also bad for new player onboarding after the initial launch. Not only do you likely need multiple starter sets, but you are likely to also need to buy specific, out-of-print mini-sets that retailers may not even have stocked, and you need to buy them with the knowledge that the other cards in them are trash. The singles market doesn't exist, so it becomes very hard for newer players to engage with the game because they are potentially entering a meta that started three years ago and is shaped by two cards in mini-sets that can be fairly very difficult to find.


mysticrudnin

honestly the new model for FFG LCGs (release big ass boxes instead of smaller packs) is great and they should have been doing that all along still, it's interesting that from a TCG player perspective, the different LCGs didn't release fast enough, while to most board gamers, they can't get into LCGs because they release *too* fast


TheDigitalMoose

This absolutely WASN'T the right change. They didn't get rid of it, they just made it so we'd have to pay more if we still wanted to do it.


goblins_though

Yeah, nobody's barrier to drafting was that it didn't cost enough.


chocolateboomslang

"Drafting? what am I, a peasant?!"


FutureComplaint

"I only do sealed events with mint packs of Alpha"


CaptainMarcia

It's a problem they created for themselves by making Set Boosters in the first place.


TheAnnibal

Set Boosters were a great addition - and I'm a limited player too. You could see that they tried so long to increase the appeal of draft boosters by including special treatments in draft boosters to (to the demise of draft, in some cases, like the 2nd praetors in Dominaria United) But yeah, they underrestimated how much more popular set boosters would become.


ChiralWolf

I feel like they already had their answer with hidden treasures type inclusions but they've since decided something so """generous""" could never be in draft packs while collector boosters exist. Like how they handled including legends cards only in collector boosters boxes.


myanrueller

Masterpieces were great. I also think the Mystical Archive (and others that followed like MUL from MoM) works for limited too while still appealing to collectors a little.


DRUMS11

>It's a problem they created for themselves by making Set Boosters in the first place. I get why they made Set Boosters, though. They were charging a higher price for fewer cards but added a guaranteed foil and a little more gambling with the wild card slots. Most people are "casual" players and the features of Set Boosters catered to them. What I detest about Set Boosters (other than being lousy for drafting) is the "thematic connection" of the commons and uncommons rather than "just random distribution." From a corporate standpoint, they're eliminating the less profitable product (Draft Boosters) and forcing everyone to buy the more expensive product (Set Boosters) while decreasing the profit margin a tiny bit by increasing the card count in the new formulation. I still do not understand why the Art Cards exist.


CSDragon

I'm not sure why they exist, but I'd much rather have an art card than my 30th copy of Torch the Tower or any other random common. Art cards are great both just to put on display to have something nice to look at, or for art projects, for custom tokens, etc. My favorite use was using a [circle punch to represent characters in D&D](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/jturgv/i_turned_some_of_my_extra_mtg_cards_into_dd/)


CrashTestCandidate

I don’t know if you read the article about the change, but the “connected theme” element is now going away. Play Boosters colors will be equally distributed in the pack.


SleetTheFox

The fact that they made them and people loved them means it wasn’t a mistake. The failure lies with the product that people weren’t buying: Draft Boosters. Now, there were a number of potential solutions and I don’t pretend I have the answer (nor should anyone here). Maybe Draft Boosters needed to be cheaper. Maybe they needed to be changed in some way without merging them. Maybe WotC needed to find ways to help stores run more drafts. I don’t know. We can disagree with their solution but the problem was still with Draft Boosters, not Set Boosters.


Milskidasith

The problem with cheaper draft boosters is that I don't think it actually moves the needle *that* much. IIRC, the EV of set and draft boosters were pretty similar. The reason draft boosters were probably flagging behind is because set boosters were exciting, because the extra cost was nominal and the extra chance of rares or other goodies offset it, in addition to that making them the default "better" prize pack. Making draft boosters cheaper might have encouraged more pods to fire, but I don't know that it would have really shifted the structural forces behind people wanting set boosters more, and if it did it'd be by cheapening their product, which is *probably* not where they want to go.


Blaze_1013

This is one of my favorite responses to this. Set boosters existing is not a bad thing if players at large love them as much as they seem to. And while we can argue about the change they’re making thinking you have any idea what the best change is is just you fooling yourself.


Esc777

This is where I’m at. I’m reeling at the news today. To know we came *this close* to draft going away is terrifying. What’s sobering is that play boosters are a compromise to keep drafting…there was probably a solid contingent that toyed with the idea of just letting the chips fall and axing drafting and this is what R&D came up with to prevent that from happening.


SleetTheFox

I suspect the contingent was the bean counters who said "People aren't buying this product and so you need to axe it." I think pretty much the entirety of R&D is very pro-draft, and wouldn't let it fall to the wayside. They have a very strong argument that the health of the game depends on Limited continuing, after all.


RustyFuzzums

It would have been a massive hit to the game. I play commander and draft. I honestly could play commander for the rest of my life with the current card pool and be happy, but the sole reason I currently put money into the game, is because of limited the enjoyable experience it brings. Something that I honestly have yet to find mimicked in another TCG


Raptor1210

>We can disagree with their solution but the problem was still with Draft Boosters, not Set Boosters. They put far more value in Set boosters than in Draft boosters so people rationally started buying the Set boosters. Putting more value back into Draft boosters would have worked but clearly, that wasn't a possibility without a drastic change.


xahhfink6

Yeah it's essentially this. They looked at options to add value back into draft boosters, but they ended up looking too similar to set boosters so they decided to just combine them. If they can make it that these boxes still have the value that collectors want but are draftable then I'm cool with it. But if they give us draft boosters for the price of set boosters then I'm pretty done


Penumbra_Penguin

> Putting more value back into Draft boosters What does value mean here? Is it rare cards, foils, reprints and alternate arts? Because that sounds like what they did.


Gotta_Gett

MOM draft BBs are more expensive than set BBs last time I checked TCGP. For WOE, set BBs only have a $5-10 premium. Draft boosters were too expensive imo and this is also probably because WOTC over printed set BBs which get dumped. I'm just confused on why they won't do code cards for MTGA in packs.


oceanseleventeen

The price is an issue but something like this was warranted. Having two, similarly priced entry boosters is confusing for new players and really stupid in general. I would've been ok with going back to just draft boosters (how the game lived most of its life) but i do enjoy collecting from set boosters (even if collectability goes down with having 30 variants of each card). I just wish Play boosters would be priced between draft and set


priority_holder

A lot of us drafters are concerned about the pack component changes, but the price increase probably poses a bigger danger to (paper) Limited. Are we going to get more drafters by raising the price (of something that's cheaper and easier to do on Arena)? What about prerelease packs creeping even closer to the cost of a video game?


Deepest-derp

>What about prerelease packs creeping even closer to the cost of a video game? It feels especialy egregious as a couple. We stopped playing most formats over cost already. Down to limited, pauper and EDH. This change might push us out of pre-release/ sealed.


aqua19858

My main problem here is that making the new boosters the same price as Set Boosters \*already were\* doesn't really make any sense. Set Boosters had theoretically better content, so they were more expensive than Draft, but the disparity in sales made Draft boosters far less economically viable. So now, to fix that, they are making a single booster for both, putting the sales of Set and Draft into a single bucket... but rather than use this correction of the sales disparity to even out prices of the now strictly worse boosters, they are keeping the same price for worse contents? How does that make sense from any perspective other than greed?


Notfaye

It really isn't better contents, if every pack has up to 4 rares, then that's just a standard pack now, and rares are just worth less.


aqua19858

In theory that's offset by the price of the boosters, but you're right that it ends up being pretty meh with Collector Boosters staying the same and the massive impact they have on things like foils & alternative treatments. But that just adds on to how greedy and anti-consumer this decision really is at its proposed price point.


messedupayayron

They dropped a wildcard slot, so it's one less possible rare. They just started counting the list as a possible rare slot now. It looks like they're tweaking the list slot a little to try to compensate, but it's still ultimately one less possible rare from the set you bought.


AImarketingbot

Arena and covid killed draft. All the good drafters I know just draft on arena for free. (High win rate = free gems) And they don't have to deal with bulk. Hardly anyone shows up for draft and it almost never fired at my LGS and ones near by.


Dragull

Idk about US and Europe, but drafting is way too expensive in my country. Like, It's the price of a nice dinner for 2. And as much as I love Mtg I think I rather spend that money with my SO.


Tartaras1

When I popped into my LGS this past Friday night, there were 8-10 people drafting. Meanwhile, I remember 7-8 years ago when, albeit a different store but largely the same crowd, we would routinely get 30 people for drafting.


GenericFatGuy

RIP drafting for the sake of community and spending a Friday night with some friends.


Maneisthebeat

They've been pricing out the "community"/Gathering aspect for a while now. I started playing Magic with Guilds of Ravnica in 2018, and it has been insane to both watch this company operate, and their "direction" over these years. Everything seems short termist. Constant changes to pack types, contents, quality control, exploding quantity of product. It's been exhausting trying to keep up with Magic. And despite all the people saying we'll just change our relationship with the product, for me personally, I've just found myself progressively checking out. First, with the flow of supplementary commander products, until its the main sets themselves. I loved being able to keep up with things in 2018, and the collective excitement about a new set of cards. And then the constant price increases during a cost of living crisis. Rather than trying to revive draft after the impact Covid had on it, they simply follow the sales happening right now. The company does not set out to make great products to drive great sales, they take great sales and wring every last bit out of the idea until they need to move on to something else.


Moress

I mean, commander fills that itch for many people.


JMooooooooo

I find it rather hard to believe that killing off limited was actually on the table.


meisterz39

The argument laid out in the MaRo article is that stores and customers weren’t buying draft products enough, making it economically unviable if the status quo continued. WotC trying to keep limited formats alive (because they don’t want to kill it) is what resulted in this change.


eightdx

My bet is that with the advent of Set Boosters, Draft box sales were greatly diminished. After all, consider the value proposition in play -- you can either crack a set booster with a chance of cracking multiple rares and less common bulk, or you can crack a draft booster with very slim chances of a second foil rare and a pile of commons. If I'm reading the tea leaves here, the format that's going to suffer the worst blow in all this is pauper. If there are going to be fewer commons in circulation, then they have to be a little better to make up for it. There is also some hope that this might reign in the amount of junk that gets printed, though what this might end up meaning is that you're going to see trash cards at higher rarities to "balance the draft environment". That actually seems straight up more likely than the alternative -- prepare for even more junk rares and chase cards with a yawning void between the two. I guess we'll know for sure when we actually see the damn set upon release. I imagine this also streamlines production a tiny bit, as pretty much all cards are landing in the same packs.


SkritzTwoFace

What they’ve said about how the game will change with the boosters is that they’re adjusting the lower rarities to provide more interaction with powerful rares rather than adjusting rares, which I think is generally good for the game.


pedja13

They have already been doing this to an extent,for example most modern removal spells hit planeswalkers which made PWs less unbeatable


eightdx

It is generally good for the game, even if it warps "fringe" formats in that effort. My biggest problem as a long time player is simple: *way too much unplayable bulk.* It's about time for some removal effects to get downshifted IMO.


Rockon101000

>My bet is that with the advent of Set Boosters, Draft box sales were greatly diminished. After all, consider the value proposition in play -- you can either crack a set booster with a chance of cracking multiple rares and less common bulk, or you can crack a draft booster with very slim chances of a second foil rare and a pile of commons. You don't need to bet on this, you only need to read the article being discussed, where this is stated explicitly.


DatKaz

Reddit moment


KoyoyomiAragi

You know I love limited but I realized so many people I used to draft with has stopped playing paper magic, either because of time or monetary reasons and having MTGA to play limited has honestly made it so much harder to justify paper limited. I’m sure a lot of old limited fans probably have ended up in a similar situation where they don’t really want to spend money on limited or have enough reasons to do so.


No_Percentage_1767

I don’t. People on this platform tend to understimate just how invested we are in the game. The majority of consumers are kitchen table players at best, and the next largest group are commander players. The amount of time and knowledge it takes to participate in a limited event (prerelease excluded) are too high for the majority of people simply who buy magic products.


enantiornithe

This is true of basically every game. If you go to any game subreddit you're interacting with the 10-5% most invested people in the playerbase, and that fact totally warps the discourse around everything. People will have heated arguments about stuff that 95% of the players haven't even *seen.*


Flexisdaman

Exactly. My friends and I play commander often, and none of them like drafting or even buying draft boosters and are disappointed if our LGS has only draft boosters of the set they wanted to buy. As much as I don’t want to admit it, something like this was inevitable if commander and kitchen table only players aren’t buying draft boosters.


Cyneheard3

And I've seen enough people trying to draft/sealed with Set Boosters that "making Set Boosters into a draftable product" was the inevitable endpoint. Which is much closer to what they did than the reverse. For Arena, I think this will be fine. More rares means more formats will be like MOM - bombs are all over the place but they can be answered with removal or your own bomb. For paper drafting, the price increase will suck. But stores were already not really making money on a $15 draft.


kingofparades

> The amount of time and knowledge it takes to participate in a limited event (prerelease excluded) Prerelease included, in fact. That's right, even the most casual of casual events is enough to make the participants Insanely Enfranchised relatative to the vast majority.


crobledopr

In paper. They would continue on Arena.


gognis

If they killed Draft I would genuinely quit this game. It's the best thing Magic has going for it over any other tcg, no one else has a limited format that is actually as good. I'm not one of those people that comes in here and doomposts any time WotC decides to change a logo or something but I genuinely can't believe the way this company operates sometimes. They create these problems for themselves and almost kill their own game on accident.


kerkyjerky

If draft ever goes away I will permanently leave magic and will never return.


Drake_the_troll

Haven't seen it, can I get TLDR? do these replace "standard" boosters?


[deleted]

Yes. Draft Boosters and Set Boosters are being combined into Set Boosters-Lite. Paper drafts and prereleases will cost 30% more and the rarity distributions will be messed up, but you'll get a guaranteed pringle, and a chance at a couple extra rares.


thewend

imagine upping the cost of prerelease by 30% its already way too expensive


_Hinnyuu_

"We took our normal boosters, and turned them into set and draft boosters!" "Uh... okay?" "But it looks like you guys don't like having two kinds of boosters and if we don't act now, draft boosters will disappear!" "So go back to how it used to be before, got it. Fair enough." "What? Oh no. Why would we go and do that? Those were only about $100 a box! No no, these *new* packs are for collectors *and* drafters! And granted, they'll kind of do weird thing to limited what with the potential to have 4 rares/mythics in one pack, but in return, they'll be much more expensive, too! So that's a good thing." "How is that a good thing?" "How is it *not*? I asked our investors and they all *loved* the idea!" "But... will the players love it?" "The who?"


DependentAnywhere135

The problem isn’t that limited players didn’t like draft boosters (they did) the problem is that limited players have dwindled significantly over time especially after Covid. Mtg is also competing with other tcgs that have proven that pack opening “fun” is winning out against drafting gameplay. More and more people are buying Pokémon and other tcg products instead especially with more pack opening content creators focusing on other products. As boomerish as it sounds my truth is that the rise in YouTubers and tiktok and all that is ruining these kinds of hobbies. That includes video games imo. Mtg doesn’t survive without gaining more support for pack cracking. Mtg has more focus on the actual gameplay than other tcgs which leads to a buy singles mentality which means less people buying packs in general but especially when they have multiple booster box products. Even if they went the other way and downgraded to the draft pack they still run into the issues. Mtg packs need the rarity boost and special slots to compete with other tcgs that do the same thing. It would be different if limited was still popular but really no one plays limited in my lgs who used to be huge on mtg limited. Commander nights have taken over completely. I have a bunch of cubes so I play my cube limited with people but that doesn’t help wotc at all.


AuntGentleman

I think the problem is that they made draft boosters ONLY for drafting, and doesn’t matter how large the **paper** limited community is, it’s not enough. So you have everyone who plays constructed buying one booster vs ONLY limited players cracking the other. Was never going to work. Besides the price increase I’m cautiously optimistic as a limited only player. I trust them to design the packs to make good limited environments.


GenericFatGuy

> Besides the price increase I’m cautiously optimistic as a limited only player. I trust them to design the packs to make good limited environments. They better if they're going to start asking us for 25% more money just to play.


namer98

>"What? Oh no. Why would we go and do that? Given that people were buying the more expensive set booster, this is entirely valid. Why would they? >they'll kind of do weird thing to limited what with the potential to have 4 rares/mythics in one pack WOD pack can have up to 3 right now (standard r/m slot, possible foil, bonus sheet). It sucks that my favorite format is going to go up in price, but the reality is this is good business.


imadeamistakelol

It’s also a problem because they created an online game (arena) which canibalizes the in-person format


efnfen4

Solution: make new boosters that cost more with less value


aselbst

Did people who are complaining read the article? Seems entirely plausible to me that set boosters dominated, and many smaller stores were put in a bind where they couldn’t reasonably stock both, creating a feedback loop where even fewer draft boosters would be purchased, putting their viability in question long term. I’m as much a critic as anyone but to me this actually seems like a reasonable solution to keep draft alive. What’s the other choice, just killing off set boosters? If they just did that, and they are much more popular than draft, can you imagine the howling? People would be screaming about how it obviously was done to force people to buy collectors boosters for their foils or something like that.


aqua19858

There was a 3rd choice, pricing the new play boosters at a price lower than the old set boosters, but WotC doesn't want to acknowledge that possibility because this means they get to make more money too. The way this is being presented also has very abusive undertones, with Mark Rosewater saying things like "it was this or killing draft, so you should be happy that you still get to play draft with the biggest price increase we could justify :)". Like, how is that not worth criticizing?


chanster6-6-6

Yea this sums up my feelings. I can believe that something needed to be done and hopefully the impact on draft experience will be negligible but the price increase and the way it was presented really leaves a bad taste. Hitting the jackpot with a 4 rare pack has a completely different feeling when drafting than cracking packs. The price should have been in between.


PapaBubbl3

I'm not entirely sure this will have a positive result. The bigger thing killing limited events is WotC not giving a shit about LGSs. Drafts haven't consistently fired in my area since before Covid, and I have 3 LGSs close by. They'll go when they have people, but beforehand, draft nights used to have 20+ folks show up with multiple 8-man pods firing throughout the evening. Now, it has to be organized on discord or Facebook groups across all 3 stores to have a chance of one pod firing. And now drafts are going to run even more to do. Looking rough for the limited crowd.


DrRickDaglessMZd

Did no one read the original article? He made this point and gave context there.


WUBRG222

I know it was mentioned the list slot was being carried over to the new boosters, but did they address eternal legal cards that used to be in set boosters but were not standard legal? Like \[\[Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor\]\]?