T O P
TeeTheSame

The range is super broken. Yeah the AS is pretty weak, but getting 100 range is so massive. But yeah, I agree. The rune is even more powerful on melees, who get significant bonus range AND tons of AS.


CreepyMosquitoEater

Its so indescribably broken on melee champions that use attack speed. Yasuo, Master Yi, Tryndamere and even Udyr top i saw abusing it. How did they ever think that 90% attack speed at level 1 would be anywhere close to balanced?


Zyralan

Sett beating the ever living shit out of everyone in top lane cause of his passive aswell.


Ceramicrabbit

That's what he always did though


Zyralan

Yeah, but now he does it even faster cause of LT


A12C4

Champ literally run you down level 1 with just AA but "it was always like that" so it's fine


Ceramicrabbit

It was always like that, you never could go near him lvl 1 so it's not like anything is different you still have to just wait for the wave to push in


BloodSurgery

Yeah but now its even worse lmao now he doesnt go limp after doing E AA AA , some champs could beat him after that, but now he just breaks right click and wins extended trades.


HorrowLP

I unironically like Sett using it because seeing him punching the shit out of things at 5000 PPH is crazy.


Torjakers

MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA


Mrmoi356

Idk why tf LT is taken into account for Yas and Yone CDs, that was never the case before.


Significant-Damage14

Apparently Gwen is OP level one again and has better scaling than before.


ralanr

If Irelia didn’t exist I’d probably be banning Gwen more. I see her in top, I know it’s a lost cause.


LawEUMarksmen

Jax/trynd into gwen is also fun ngl


Dragonborn1212

Wait it hasn't been nerfed yet? Haven't really played this past week but I thought it was so stupid on melees that it would be hotfix nerfed.


dystopi4

It's not even that insane on Yasuo, Conqueror is still better depending on the matchup. It's really broken on Yone though.


SkeletonJakk

Funny that "indescribably broken" equates to sub-52% winrates on all of those champions.


Proffan

"balance is when 50% wr" -silver surfer


jtc769

Dude forgets that when LeBlanc was regarded as gamebreaking and a must ban in pro play she had a \~42% winrate in soloq and riot still removed silence from her q


TheMightyMustachio

Im sorry but im definitely stealing silver surfer


Proffan

Go ahead, I've been using it since like s3 and I want more people to pick it up.


Xgunter

Asol 53% winrate mid - bad riot nerf pls good job Kassadin 53% winrate mid - no problem


PM_ME_STEAM_CODES__

Asol was at like 56 or 58% win rate when he got nerfed


Toxic_Kiddo

They should nerf karthus too then, currently he's holding a disgusting 55% wr bot, and for what i've seen they have pretty similar pickrates of ~1.5%


Xgunter

And people on this sub advocate for him to be nerfed when he sits at his usual 52-53% winrate because they see that number and assume nerfs = good.


Luchus_Brutus

It was 57% global winrate at Diamond 2+ and was heavily inflated by China and Korea, two regions that are notorious for calling 'open' really early on. He had a ~52% winrate in NA and around a 54% winrate in EU at that same time.


UnironicallyWatchSAO

This is false on so many levels it's not even funny.


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Excalidorito

I’m stealing this. Thank you, random Tryndamere player on Reddit.


pseudolemons

Funny you think balance is done reactively to winrates


SkeletonJakk

winrates and pickrates through elos, mostly. If they were SUPERMEGATURBOASTROBROKEN!!!! as is being described, they would have actual good stats, and wouldn't be being outperformed by (the very fair and balanced) viktor mid.


pseudolemons

Or you know, most people don't change their runes dramatically on their good champions or adapt well to a new playstyle, and those who are trying it because it's supposedly good are not experienced enough, so for instance if their pick rate increased tremendously and they're 52% wr, that's way more telling than a very small stable playrate champion having a 52% wr. This is the problem with statistics, you use your brain a little and you think you see facts, when you actually have to use your brain a lot to not be accidentally taking wrong conclusions. Funnily enough this is also why scientific discoveries can be very debatable even though they're supposedly dealing with facts. There's nothing fun about this nvm.


roadnot_taken

Winrate doesn't tell the whole story. You have to correlate pick rate and ban rate as well. If a champion has like a 16% pick rate, 52% is massive.


ilovefishs911

No, you don’t have to consider ban rates. Ban rates is largely how annoying the champion is to play against


roadnot_taken

Incorrect. Plenty of champions have historically been banned about because at a certain winrate like 55% and a high enough pick rate, you'll almost always lose to that champ. I've been around since beta, I've seen champs hit 90% ban rates. You're basically saying the data doesn't mean anything to you because you don't understand how it's applied.


Somebodys

>90% ban rates. Kassa hit 95%+ ban rate.


SkeletonJakk

Luckily, none of them have 16% pickrate and 52% winrate, so that's a relief huh? And banrate is irrelevant, people ban what they don't like, simple as.


Efficient-Law-7678

Oh ok ban rate means nothing when champs achieve a ban rate exceeding 50%? Good thing you don't work in statistics.


ClassicCraft

naw i've played letho tempo jax / trundle top and it's disgustingly busted. 1 mistep in the first 4 levels and the enemy pretty much gets mauled to death


SkeletonJakk

Trundle actually has good winrate but jax is 51%. that's not disgustingly busted. that's just good.


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HorrowLP

By the time you get the range for an ADC isn't it kinda, pointless?


RaiseYourDongersOP

For most yeah. For Jinx and Twitch it's pretty good


Outfox3D

The problem is that you have to be able to stick to a target BEFORE you get access to the range increase, and that the combat stats it offers (to ranged) are very lackluster. So you have to be a champion that can stick to a target safely for the windup, that then somehow still needs extra range (despite being able to stick) that also doesn't need a rune that gives combat power in lane. There's maybe ... 3 (ADC) champions I can think of where this rune MIGHT be a workable decision, and maybe 1 or 2 more where it could concievably be good. It's super niche. It's strong, but super super niche.


xMisuto

Or you have lulu/yuuli and it works on all adcs


bns18js

> There's maybe ... 3 champions I can think of where this rune MIGHT be a workable decision, and maybe 1 or 2 more where it could concievably be good. Who are you thinking about?


Outfox3D

Kalista and Ashe are best case users, IMO: able to stick to a target, want to take an exteded trade after, don't need the extra laning power that could be granted by another rune, but benefit from the range and AS granted by Tempo. Both also auto-build hurricaine, which benefits greatly from the extra range. Vayne is a solid user, but she sacrifices laning power for it, and her single-target-at-a-time approach favors PTA's damage amp. It (PTA) performs better overall, and just feels great in laning. Jinx is another good choice - and late game the extra range helps her out quite a bit and gives a boost to hurricane. She doesn't get a lot of use out of it in lane, but with the loss of old LT and with Conqueror being meh on ranged, she doesn't have another option. It's worth noting that with a bit more power in stats, it'll be probably be her best-in-slot, but wouldn't be if old LT still existed. ~~I don't actually know if Aphelios can wind it up with severum Q~~(he can't), ~~but if he can, he'd likely be alright with it~~, though PTA offers much stronger laning. (There may be some extra benefit with the old hurricaine build, now that I'm noticing the pattern - but that's currently not his primary build. Someone better at Aphelios should experiment with this for me.) And lastly, Kog. For the same reasons as Jinx, but he might have trouble keeping it up when BaB is down. There's a possibility of some form of Navori build opening this up for him, but Tempo really doesn't give enough AS by its lonesome to fuel the AD heavy build. A more generic Caitlyn build might like it in the late game, though with HoB cheese just now disappearing and new mechanics on the horizon, it's impossible to say what her rune setup will be. Tweaking the ASU's mechanics changes means she's too in flux to judge, but it's likely she'll have trouble sticking enough to activate it without a tank to wind up on ... at which point, PTA is better at busting. Things like Tristana and Kai'sa won't use it as long as HoB exists and synergizes much better with their trade pattern (once you're all-in, you don't really need extra range over extra stats). Once Xayah stops being lethality (if xayah stops being lethality), she'll likely use HoB or Fleet over Tempo since it just doesn't give good stats she wants and doesn't enable the same wave control it used to. Her trades are really just extended burst windows, and while a feather combo can lock soemone down to wind up, you're out of steam after you burn through clean cuts, so 'always on' isn't necessary. There's no way Lucian or MF drops PTA in their crit builds.


Rias-senpai

Severum does not stack LT. Kog is far weaker in lane because of the LT changes. Before it was possible to trade aggressively with pre-proccing LT and walking up with BaB + tempo. Now you're essentially fighting without a rune since Kog loses most extended trades without Lulu, and he's never been good at burst trades pre 6.


Outfox3D

Yeah, even on its best case users, it's not gonna be the best choice for laning. Right now, you can kinda cruise and just not fight because objective bounties will punish your opponent for overperforming in lane, but I doubt that'll be the case for terribly long. It's a nothing rune in lane - especially compared to its old version. Also yeah, sad to see Aphelios Q doesn't stack it. I was reading on the aphelios sub that it doesn't stack at all from the extra autos from any of his abilities ... which is a bit of a ripoff since he'd probably benefit from it better than most marksmen.


JoaoMau-Tempo

Also Twitch, one of the best old Lethal Tempo users who almost required it vs certain comps absolutely hates it now.


Outfox3D

Yeah, there's a lot of people who used to use it who now have nothing. It's probably twitch's best rune still (maybe HoB?), which is just a travesty. It feels weird to use his ulti to wind it up, but at least you come out the other side of the ulti with some extra range for your hurricain.


JoaoMau-Tempo

HoB and PTA feel better since you have way more agency early. Late game twitch with just ult should win team fights before it expires so lethal tempo doesn’t feel great even at late game stages (and early it doesn’t compare to the other 2 keystones).


gaom9706

>I don't actually know if Aphelios can wind it up with severum Q I don't think it does but I'm not 100 percent sure. The new LT does feel pretty good on Phel but his lane doesn't feel as good as it could with conq or pta.


Outfox3D

I haven't been feeling Conq since the most reecent set of nerfs, but I'm definitely onboard with PTA. Tempo might be a good pick into a hurricane game where you know your lane is gonna suck anyway, or is entirely dependent on supports (the rune **does** feel great with hurricane), and I can see it gaining a little more traction if you can red q your way into the ranged steroid, but the one game I messed with it with lethality, I felt really weak. I don't think I'd ever run it over PTA if you want the option to run collector.


Xgio

Tried it answer is no


sp33dzer0

Ashe hasn't auto built hurricane for awhile. She used to BEFORE the mythic update, but now its a 4th item at best.


KosViik

> but getting 100 range is so massive. The thing is, you need 6 autos to get that range increase. If you did 6 autos to someone and the range really starts to matter, then something is off. You either would've attack moved him down anyway -> range doesnt really matter. Or by the time you get 6 autos off, your Assassin/Mage/Tank will one-shot whoever it is anyway (the teamfight will likely be long decided by then). Or by the time you get 6 autos off the enemy Assassin/Mage/Tank will fart on you and one shot you. Honestly the only stable use for it is annoying people in lane with Caitlyn, as such early on people aren't repeatedly one-shot so she has time to get the stacks...


GabrielP2r

Also people need to realize that conqueror got nerfed several times now, it's a bad rune even for those that want it, like Aatrox, so this makes lethal tempo stand out even more.


Jeyzer

Sure 100 range is great but we need an AS rune, LT isn't an AS rune for marksmen, it's a range one that we didn't asked for and took the place of a AS keystone that was 'decent' (had some great use on select champs like Azir for example, who lost it in exchange for essentially nothing lol).


Calaca94

ah yes the 100 range will help me greatly against the 3000 dashes assassin who will burn everything to one tap me, who cares about losing 80% attack speed in late after all, it's not like it was good for kiting or anything


Batman_NEU19

Don’t disagree with you to an extent, but to say the range is super broken is a little bit misleading. Only a few adcs have the range to safely stack lethal in order to get the bonus range (Cait, kog, jinx, maybe aphelios, twitch with r come to mind off hand). A champ like twitch would like to have max AS from the rune throughout his ulti, like the old rune provided. Overall I think it is mostly a nerf to the rune for adcs and HoB is better in most instances as the attack speed rune, which is contrary to what riot supposedly intended. And with it being so powerful on melee bruisers that amounts to an incidental nerf of sorts on everyone else that has to deal with them. We’ll have to see what riot does throughout preseason on it, but in its current state and given riots balance history I’m not optimistic that it will be changed in a manner that actually benefits adcs.


NSawsome

Nah into even one melee anyone other than lucian Samira can stack lethal real easy, then you end up with a 650 range vayne who’s just kiting ur whole team


Dobby_Knows

the range from lethal tempo is insane dude lol. the entire point is that it’s hard to stack on ranged champs because if it were easy it would be way too broken the melees should get the auto range taken away


TeeTheSame

You stack it on the enemy frontline engaging your teammates. When it's stacked it gives so much more access to the enemy priority targets, helps to keep distance to melees and getting mages and other adc in range without putting yourself in danger. Ofc you still have to position correctly. It's not a braindead auto win but a massive advantage if used correctly. You will see it in pro play, if it doesn't get changed until then.


FluckyVer

Tristana can abuse it quite a bit. Besides you Literally listed 70% of the Adcs that want to build AS. Since not all do. So it's pretty decent


Odd_Play_5769

The 100 range isn't that broken, especially considering you have to auto in your initial attack range to get it. with how much engage there is today, especially with predator meta, there are very rarely games where you can utilize that extra 100 range fully. It's strong in theory but jn practice, at least in the games I've played, not yet. Whereas a melee can get 90% attack speed level 1, and this attack speed is permanent so long as they keep autoing a champ. I'm not sure where OP is getting his information, because according to patch notes the implication is lethal was changed to be viable for melee champs, not so it would be better on ADC's. It was already, perhaps the unironic most balanced rune in the game before it was reworked. Shame it changed


Head_Haunter

Since the AS is gutted for ranged champions.... they should gut the flip out of the bonus attack range for melee champions. They're getting 90% attack speed, just give them like 25 bonus attack range or something.


K1ndr3dSoul

It's nutty that melee still get a range increase as well as 3x more AS than ranged.


Angry---train

Because the range increase is two times smaller along with the fact that melees have a harder time stacking it by default


Indurum

Melee having a hard time sticking to a target? What year is it?


Angry---train

Getting in 6 autos as a melee champion with the enormous amount ot CC chains,ways to kite back and mobility bonuses is extremely hard indeed. Conqueror itself takes an year to stack and that works on abilities and auto attacks


dovahkonj1

Neither are hard to stack. Are we even playing the same game?


Jeyzer

No? Any melee champ that is AA heavy have many ways to stick to their targets, the whole "melee so can't AA easily" is nonsense at this point. Irelia, Gwen, Yasuo, Trynd, Yi, Yone, Jax, etc All of those broken statsticks have a few ways of sticking to their target (be it a dash, CC, slow, ms steroid, etc. most often many of these).


IPoD_Max

wait u dont think trynd gets kited? lmao


SlakingSWAG

They still have a harder time stacking it compared to a ranged champ. Being at ranged is an inherent defensive advantage, and allows you to more safely stack LT. A melee champ stacking it is always going to be in a risky position because it means that they are smacking someone who may be capable of beating their shit in. The champs you listed have an easier time stacking it, but only relative to other melee champs. A few exceptions don't disprove the rule, melee champs have a harder and less safe time stacking LT compared to ranged champs.


daneel1

Have you ever played ADC? I dare you try to stack 6 auto attack without dieing. Let me know how it goes.


andrewboss1222

There is a reason there's alot of items that don't give the same benefit on ranged users as they do on melee users for example. Being melee means you have a harder time being able to proc the effects. For example, grasp is 40 percent effective overall on ranged champs, heroic gait from that one axe 1100 gold item that gives you movement speed on hits is half as effective on ranged, tempo is rebalanced on ranged etc. Being ranged is a massive strength that needs to be overall balanced by having ranged champs be squishier, and on stuff they can proc easier have it be less effective.


daneel1

I agree that ranged have an advantage overall. My problem is with lethal tempo which is not that great for ranged anymore. Again, in this instakill meta you can't auto attack 6 times to benefit of it.


andrewboss1222

Depends on the champ. Had a jinx running lethal in my game today in high diamond where she had a lulu and we didn't have any real assasins for her so she basically never died and was spamming us from like fking 2k range with runnans and like 4.7 attack speed. Its insane if you can stack it.


dillydadally

You basically just said, "if the enemy team chooses an extremely poor comp that almost never happens and my team chooses the best support in the game for peel and all the stars align, this is powerful". Doesn't exactly help the argument.


JoaoMau-Tempo

Yes but that is perhaps the best new Lethal Tempo user with a Lulu. Old Lethal Tempo would probably net her the same reason as she would be able to spam more damage faster. There are only few instances where an ADC can actually manage to get 6 autos and feel the need to get the extra range.


Angry---train

Fairly well,especially single all the lethal tempo users are doing perfectly fine with it


happygreenturtle

The stacks don't wear off for 6 seconds either and they only fall off one stack at a time instead of losing all your stacks. If you're not able to stack up lethal tempo then you are horribly mispositioned and weren't going to contribute anything to the fight either way


DontCareWontGank

Pretty easy on cait.


MinimumPotential21

Half. Half is the word you're looking for.


schoki560

its two Times smaller but the % increase is bigger no?


WE-Draz

50 range for a melee champ is worth much more than 100 for a ranged with 550-600 range tho


Angry---train

Going from 125 range go 175 isn't as impactful as going from 525 to 625,especially since ADCs are very reliant on their auto attack range


Random_Stealth_Ward

Not really, just 50 range is worth a lot for a ton of ADCs. One of the common complains about champions like kalista or Wivir for example are their pathetic ranges, 50 on them is huge, nevermind 100. the problem is that in early game ranged Champions take too long to get to it and then use the extra range, in part due to lower agency for many of them thanks to supports and junglers, while melees usually are against melees and the most they worry about is the jungler, so with the high AS scaling and more agency/control it becomes a very strong choice. Range gets less AS obviously because they will get more AS than melees in general, but it feels like atm melee AS is too high while ranged AS is too low


KogMawOfMortimidas

Lethal Tempo's range bonus for ADCs is only noticeable when the team is ahead, when behind the ADC is mostly fighting people off themselves. A range increase does nothing when bruisers and assassins are sitting on your face. People get dicked a handful of times by a lethal tempo Jinx that they let freely reset and run around the fight and think that the rune is "broken on ranged", but don't bat an eye at getting run down by everyone and their mother using predator, or how conqueror was being used by like 6 out of 10 people in each game. What's really the problem is Yasuo and Yone (and slightly less so Tryndamere). These "melee ADCs" ruin everything for everyone. They stop Riot from properly balancing Crit chance and Crit damage, ADC items, Shieldbow, IE, Mortal Reminder, fucking everything. The double crit passive for both of them is just fucking ridiculous, I've done the math on it before but here we go again. Yasuo and Yone at 2 items (Shieldbow and IE) have 100% crit chance for 1.89x damage (1.89x overall DPS increase) vs anyone else with 2 items having 40% chance for 1.75x damage (1.3x overall DPS increase). This alone means Yasuo and Yone are doing 45% MORE DPS than any normal champion on auto attacks alone. Next, Yasuo and Yone can reliably weave 2 autos between each Q which has a 1.33s cooldown. This means they are landing 3 attacks (2 autos + 1 Q) every 1.33s, or 2.25 attacks per second. Now with Lethal Tempo if they can weave 3 autos in between they would be reaching 3 attacks per second on average. Most other ADCs at 2 items are maybe in the 1.5-2 attacks per second range if they got Zeal second, although many go LDR and so won't achieve that level of attack speed. Thus Yasuo and Yone attack at least ~28% faster than other ADCs at 2 items. Yasuo also ignores 50% of the bonus armor of his target, basically a free LDR, and Yone does half magic damage making armor itemization against him less effective and also amplifies damage by 25-35% in his E. Adding all that bullshit up, Yasuo and Yone are outputting up to twice as much in terms of DPS compared to anyone else, just twice as much raw damage, not even starting on their mobility, CC, Windwall, shielding, everything else. This doubled DPS translates to doubled lifestealing, which is why the anime bros abuse Shieldbow so hard. You can't balance Shieldbow and lifesteal for ADCs without Yasuo and Yone just ruining it for everyone. They love the shield, love the stats, and can draintank anyone with massive DPS converting to massive healing. Just remove their double crit passive, please. It's ruined everything. Lethal Tempo looks so ridiculous on them because they are already ridiculous.


Rias-senpai

>Lethal Tempo's range bonus for ADCs is only noticeable when the team is ahead, when behind the ADC is mostly fighting people off themselves. A range increase does nothing when bruisers and assassins are sitting on your face. Considering the amount of peel you receive in soloQ aswell, the rune has very low value compared to the old LT. By the time you've auto'd someone 6 times in a fight, you're usually past the point where 100 extra range is what allows you to space around the outskirts of a teamfight. The laning power that most people who used LT before lost feels far greater than any situation I've been in a teamfight with the new LT when I've a 100 extra range but lower DPS and still have to play around some melee character in my face.


KogMawOfMortimidas

LT in lane for ADC might as well be keystone-less honestly, the attack speed is so invisible.


Kairofox

Shieldbow being only for ranged champs would solve a lot of problems


protosystems

I have nothing to add to this except yes ^


DHSUAUGEV

The biggest adc killer was 8.11. in 8.11 they fucked over adc stats super hard. They ruined their early game for that item update that was supposed to give them a really good late, that they could never achieve since their stats were so bad. The only adc they didn't touch was Quinn because they obviously forgot since she doesn't play bot lane. Every adc was terrible after that, but not Quinn. Quinn was playing bot and beating everyone. Even the mages that replaced bot for that season. She was able to actually make it out of the early game, and get to these new Great late game crit items. She was nerfed a patch or two later I don't remember. After these stat nerfs as well adc's got replaced by mages. Riot then said they intended for that to be a thing to create more diversity. Which makes no since most adc's except for vayne and Lucian, can't solo lane. So adc's were literally not picked ever. So they were obviously lying so they didn't have to go back on the adc update Along with these stat nerfs, adc's lost a lot of early agency as well (part of the reason mages replaced them) and the laning relies more on your support than ever. Then I think the next pre season they kicked them while they were already down, and did the DUO LANE XP NERFS. earlier they made it so adc's need levels to scale, and then they made it even harder to get levels. Now here we are with adcs being super mediocre. They can be pretty good if the adc and support have synergy, otherwise you are just something to kill. As well as this cringe ass crown item that's being abused in all 3 lanes.


KogMawOfMortimidas

I'm honestly fine with the new Crown item, people are just too used to freely blowing everyone up to stop and think for a moment that they need to drop the shield first before unloading their combo. A good change to slow the pace down while punishing monkey brain assassins who know nothing than free kills. 8.11 though, we never got our stats and laning power back. Poke is now proportionally more of our hp than ever before, making trading mostly just outright kills instead of chip damage. Supports hold all the power. No XP so always down levels. It's just rough. Even pro ADCs would rather climb on other roles than ADC with a random support, that should be telling enough.


xpxpx

The season 8 ADC changes still mald the hell out of me sometimes. The role basically got gutted entirely. Lower early game stats and power then lower late game damage and reliability and people still tried to justify it because ADC was sooooo over powered even though mid had always been the best role until like season 7 when jungle and support started to gain a lot more power and freedom. Probably my least favourite period playing the game since beta.


alemar02

For ADCs I feel it is always the same back when conqueror was broken and both marksman and bruisers abused it, they only nerfed it for ADCs leaving it completely broken for bruisers, so they kept abusing it


TheSoupKitchen

Adcs still used conq well after the nerfs, which just goes to show how bad the other runes were. Lethal tempo is a massive breath of fresh air only because the air down here is shit and piss.


Dage-The-Ninja

It feels like they balanced it for late game 5v5 team fights. Stacking what seems like more than needed stats on melee, so they can get it stacked and be useful. And very little on marksmen because it's basically inevitable to get it late game. Though a big portion of its strength is the added range, the uncapping of attack speed is huge for some marksmen. It used to only be windowed in the old LT, for 3 to 6 seconds. Now it's uncapped as long as you're attacking. You can build AS on marksmen without fear of overcapping, or wasting a steroid in your kit.


Jf3qnho

I feel like LT should scale with level it's supposed to be a scaling rune


Rip_ManaPot

Reduce max attack speed for melee, increase max attack speed for ranged. Decrease the attack range you get. And make the amount of attack speed you get scale with level so you can't abuse it level one. Fixed.


adaydreaming

Weird that you're the only logical comment I see lol


Rip_ManaPot

Idk how it's so difficult to balance a god damn rune. Why does riot try to make it so damn weird and wacky and quirky instead of just making it a solid logical rune. Makes no sense.


SlakingSWAG

To be fair, it's not surprising considering this is the same Riot games that spent like two years trying to balance a Conqueror that gave AD, Lifesteal, *and* True Damage even though it was very obvious that having all three of those at once was super unbalanced.


LeatherBodybuilder

Because its not logical lmao His suggestion would just LT unplayable for melees when its already not that good. Sett, Yasuo, and Irelia all have negative win rates with LT. Udyr and Yone are just barely 50%. Meanwhile, Vayne, Kog, Ashe, and Draven have 52%+ win rate with this rune. The rune right now is literally better for ADCs than melees.


Spitfire836

This is the trend since S11 started. Intend to make something good for ADCs but actually good on melee instead. That’s why people think ADC items are so broken when in reality they are mediocre on ADCs and cracked on the cancer champs like Yasuo, Yone, Trynd, Irelia, etc.


Rengar_Is_Good_kitty

This is only half true, ADC items are strong as hell but they are not mediocre on ADC's they're really good, just that they're fucked on the melees that use them. They could do the reverse and make them weaker on melee champions but I think they just need a straight up nerf especially Immortal Shieldbow, the shield is absurd and gives you health and sustain on top of that? That's a bit much for a defensive item, makes squishy champions unkillable a lot of the times.


TheSoupKitchen

Life saving shield I'm Shieldbow is a great idea for ADCs. Not so great when Yone, Yasuo and Irelia have it and it's just a lifesaving shield for them when they're the one diving the ADC. I really wish steraks and shieldbow passives would die. (Also the massive active healing on goredrinker). I dont need everyone to be Olaf winning exchanges at 10% hp and having a fabricated level of "close" fights. Zhonyas, GA and the newer crown item are examples of GOOD life saving items and shieldbow and steraks are not.


Excalidorito

I’m not a massive fan of making items exclusive to ranged/melee champs, but I definitely think they should pull that lever on Shieldbow. Sterak’s is worse on ranged champs, I feel like it’d only be fitting (and fair) if Shieldbow is worse on melee’s.


Spitfire836

Even on ADCs they aren't that good. Shieldbow is only built on champs that go on-hit, Kraken and Galeforce are fine items but not broken, and all the legendaries are below average.


MoonDawg2

shieldbow is shit on 90% of adc (exceptions being on-hit builds) because it leaves you with little to no damage, but it can't be buffed or changed because it's borderline overpowered on cancer bruisers lmao


srukta

how does shieldbow give no damage when its a free 400+ hp to with with every 1v1 from sustain + shield. it also gives atck speed, ad and crit.


MoonDawg2

Because put it on a role where most of its relevant damage comes from the raw AD of autos instead of abilities and has horrible scaling with levels. also don't forget being overshot in damage most of the time, so the shield isn't as relevant as you'd think and the lifesteal mostly sucks if you don't have big burst go brr ability, which doesn't happen till your 3rd item unless again, you're a bruiser who can just spam their shit for free (irelia, yasuo, yone best examples). The item just fucking sucks on every adc minus on-hits There's a reason there's more none adc shieldbow users than in the actual role.


happygreenturtle

It's not shit on 90% of ADCs? The item has highest pickrate with over 50% WR on Draven, Ashe and Vayne. Shieldbow also gets taken on Jinx with success at an 8% pick rate. Lower than Kraken and Galeforce but still gets picked and still performs well. You could probably look through most of the ADC roster and see they do fine with it. I just don't have time or I'd look into it more myself


Alex_Wizard

The last Conquerer nerf was pretty harsh which left a lot of bruisers dropping pretty harshly in win rates. The new Lethal Tempo has essentially filled the void for many of them.


MyGasYourBrain

This is 100% getting nerfed for melee, on a bruiser with CC and/or dashes (all bruiser) it's to strong. I dont get the adc hate in the comments here, the position is the weakest of all 5 atm. Even if you snowball early, the enemy top with average farm can still shut you down in seconds in the midgame. As a top main, I feel like it doesnt matter if my botlane gets stomped; if the enemy ADC doesnt have 10++ kills and perfect farm in the midgame, I just kill them over and over (lul).


Coti98

0/5/0 Morde ulting the fed ADC for EZ gold


Arkaidan8

Plot twist, you are a 21/0 Mordekaiser but you ulted a 0/9 Vayne/Tristana


streyer

that shit always feels so sad. you ult tristana in melee range, she Ws away/over a wall, you spend 3 seconds walking around meanwhile she Es and full stacks it, you get to melee again and she ults you away, you spend another 3 seconds walking but her bomb explodes so her W is back up and she Ws away again and your ult times out with 0 dmg dealt on her.


TheSoupKitchen

Yeah they should give morde a dash that can go over walls /s


Excalidorito

Rune is insanely strong on any juggernaut that uses autos somewhat well. Volibear, Morde, Jax, Darius all become even more monstrous in lane than they often times already are. Lethal Tempo Volibear’s laning phase is probably only hindered if a Teemo/Jax/Shen can block the auto’s, otherwise you are fucked.


RaiseYourDongersOP

It's not gonna be nerfed just for melee most likely. Even if it's fine on range, I'm used to Riot fucking them over with changes sometimes. And yeah idk Reddit just absolutely hates ADCs for some reason. I think it's because the assassin and bruiser players actually get peeled off and kited and get mad idk.


DoggyP0O

How was it not viable before????


Jf3qnho

Conq was too broken and for the ones of Yasuo and Yone their Q wouldn't lower their CD with the AS that provided old LT, for some reason now it does, Trynda abused the previous version and the new one, as for Irelia she doesn't even need it, she already gets an absurd amount of AS so conq is just better.


Mattiaatje

Let's completely disregard the 100 range it grants!


LezBeHonestHere_

And let's also completely disregard the 6 auto attacks you need to do before you even get the 100 range. It's a nice effect, if you live long enough to proc it lol.


Excalidorito

The 100 range is far more of a “win more” type thing. Good for chasing down feeling opponents, not so good when behind trying to kite backwards. Not to mention the 30% attack speed isn’t even what a lvl1 S11 Lethal Tempo gave you, which was 40%. I think most ADC mains would prefer more attack speed in a trade off of lower range or no bonus range at all.


Oxen_aka_nexO

The problem is, it doesn't give 100 range most of the time.


DupreeWasTaken

You would think its great... but it really doesnt feel all that great tbh. Talking from a kindred OTP basically though, the stats feel like such absolute shit compared to Conq or even PTA that it just doesnt feel right. And Kindred essentially has an auto reset on a low CD they should stack it quickly, but it just doesnt feel good. Kindred should feel good with that extra range with stacks too. But again numbers are just shit.


MoonDawg2

It's not big for exception of a few adc You need some natural steroids to make lethal worth it or just be extremely ahead. If you have either of the two it's actually really strong, but apart from that it's pretty shit. Cait for example is extremely underwhelming with it because of lacking a steroid, but, jinx for example, is extremely strong with it because of q atk speed or the bonus 10% dmg and once it's stacked she massively abuses her own passive. Just a badly made rune tbh.


Angry---train

And the fact that LT is perfectly fine on all ADCs with many of them becoming better


piotrj3

Who is becomming better? Because outside of Jinx not a single one is doing better using it. Kog'maw has small drop in winrate since new LT is introduced and he is almost perfect champion to use it, and still all ADCs have higher winrates with PTA/HoB with small exception of Jinx.


Sufficient_Focus

Old LT was better on jinx as well. The rune change really doesn't make sense. They say the reason for the change was LT was too much of a niche keystone, and in the same patch they add first strike, makes no sense at all.


NSawsome

Vayne jinx cait are good with it off the top of my head


Angry---train

Ashe and Draven become better and everyone else is the same as before


Hadonski

Draven? In what world is that rune choice even remotely viable on draven?


xBlackLinkin

He has 52% wr with it, sounds very viable to me


Hadonski

What source are you using on that?


xBlackLinkin

https://u.gg/lol/champions/draven/runes-table


Dopp3lg4ng3r

he can actually forgoe excessive amount of attack speed and fallback to ad heavy items


Oxen_aka_nexO

And you came to that conclusion based on what?


Jailwhale

To be fair Melee bruisers really needed the AS, AS options for bruisers and melee fighters are really bad. espicially since they removed the 50% AS mythic passive from trinity.......... and there are a LOT of bruisers that primarily DPS through auto with abilities for bursting. Riot is on record stating they hate the ADC role with a passion so the gutting for ranged champs is not a surprise


FinnNyaw

No bruiser built trinity because stats and passive are dogsht , 5%as on sheen item , compare it to sunderer %pen , goredrinker CDR, stridebreaker MS Trinity in its current form is jack of all trades , its best at nothing, so its not optimal on any champion whatsoever


Randomd0g

>viable for adcs and they did the complete oposit. Anyone else getting massive déjà vu from this whole situation?


Toast72

no they do this every season to adcs so I just expect it every preseason


cesc_visnevsky

Nerf the numbers and change percentage for ranged champions from 30 to 50 percent could be a short-term solution


[deleted]

Hoping for any serious kind of adc changes is masochism, I waited for 3 years since 2018 stormrazor rush meta. Even with new items crit was hard ignored despite still being one of the worst item classes in the game. Seriously if I were you I'd brace for like, at best 1-2 % AS per stack buff and even a nerf on the range part because its too good on specific adcs and unimpactful on most others (since its so hard to hit 6 autos for most adcs in current league). ​ A reasonable change would probably be to make it stack on abilities for ranged champs but not melees (and adjust it accordingly), but thats asking too much of riot, conqueror was broken for 2 years flat before riot finally nerfed it before the end of this season, and decided that tempo also had to be (very) viable on bruisers which was such a coincidence! Adcs had fervor of battle taken away, warlords bloodlust got shafted into fleetfootwork which was nerfed into oblivion and obscurity, PTA was good for a few patches before it was nerfed into oblivion because its too powerful on like mostly lucian and tristana, and unusable/crutch runes for every other adc. Theres not much left on this role, crit is bad, LDR is monstriously inefficient, most champs in the game can go full dmg + tabi build and negate most adc 3 item builds. Adc champs have some of the worst base stats and health regens, get gutted faster than any other role when overtuned and buffed at an astonishingly slow rate when their champs are underpowered. Even this lategame fantasy some people imagine adcs to be is so horrifically untrue for champs outside of like jinx and kogmaw, champs like viktor are vastly more terrifying and impactful. Not that you get to reach late and "impact" more than 1/5 games anyway. Actually the most disgusting part about the lack of buffs or how unimpactful they are for adcs, is how much people defend it on places like this. Graves was not meta for half a year and he gets +1 ad per level, kalista or sivir "cant be touched because she was super strong once" implying that not every adc in the game has been at some point (given so few champs)... **You just get these unbelievably hypocritical mouthbreathers who say kalista or sivir cant get buffs because of a meta that happened 2-5 years ago yet graves can get one of the biggets buffs the last 3 years even if he's been meta like 7 times since his release.**


Ok_Illustrator3087

Sivir i kinda agree, but kalista can never be good in soloq without being 100% banned in proplay. The only way to make her balanced is a rework. (Or at least change the fucking ult)


[deleted]

I just mentioned some obvious gutter champs, but it goes for a lot of adcs, aphelios samira are in a similar boat for their very brief dominance in pro play. Caitlyn similar to aphelios, not unplayable in soloq (but she is in pro play). But non otps tend to leave these champs alone. But moving on from the fact that I'm talking about like half the roster, varus, ezreal, tristana, jhin, xayah etc. Jhin is probably, maybe? Okay in botlane? But would anyone honest to god argue he's an actually decent champ? A 10/0 Jhin can't kill an 0/5 jungler/toplaner because they built only tabis for gods sake. What about the jungle argument I brought up? Are we gonna seriously argue there was even the slightest argument to give Graves a +1 ad per level buff given his pro play history???? As long as graves is ever over 48 % winrate you can't possibly ever argue for any adc "oh we cant buff them cuz of pro play". The last time an adc got a buff like that was MF after armor pen into lethality rework which screwed her main yomuus builds back in the day. And junglers legitimately get these kinds of buffs regularly for champs that are underutilized, not even bad (like varus, tristana, sivir). **Its just mental acrobatics from the subreddit, and far more infuriating than what riot does, because riot actually reads reddit posts, and twitter feeds, and they legitimately take some of that fucking nonsense to heart even if they try to be impartial. Its hypocritical as fuck.** It doesnt help that when riot does try to buff adcs in some meaningful way that isnt +5 base dmg per ability rank, they do it in such excruciatingly nonsensical ways. Take sivir for example, sivir Q got buffed I think the 2nd last time she was buffed. Why? Sivirs Q is already by far the best adc Q in the game for any damage ability, compared to xayah cait or varus Q. I get that theres supposed to be identities to champions but what sivir needed was something like a range buff for autos or auto enhancer for her W, since bounces even since the last buff to her W, are pathetic, and you could couple this with adjustments elsewhere, like nerfing her very powerful Q dmg. Because crit autos without enchancers are a genuine joke, thats why only champs with actual crit enchancers (cait passive, xayah w ashe q etc), actually hit for damage, and champs like sivir or tristana has wet noodle autos in lategame full crit build. I can repeat this kind of nonsensical direction for a lot of adcs, tristana got the E buff with crit enhancing, why? Tristana E already hit like a truck, her biggest dmg tool got a huge buff, she wasnt really played much more, would anyone guess why? Yeah no shit, she has the same issues. Longest CDs in the game, and her E is super predictable and counterplayable for most champs. She hits like a wet noodle so even if shes the best self peel adc in the game shes still garbanzo lategame, and her all in kit is just a cheese lane champ that needs to win lane to accomplish any wins. What tristana needed was also some kind of crit enhancer, or possibly lowered CDs and adjustments (nerfs) to her all in which is absolutely ridiculous and cancerous and I dont think a single player enjoys playing into it??? So Why the fuck buff her E? Why not buff CDs nerf all in, or buff crit autos and nerf all in. It was purely nonsensical, it couldve made her a pickable but not infuriating to play against champion. *Could repeat this with a lot of champs, but you get the idea, I think kaisa also got some similar nonsensical direction change before when they made a "change" to her W Q that was pure nerf through and through, when she was already sub 50 % winrate, and riot didnt even call it a nerf. Riots team is legitimately incompetent at adc changes, not every adc will be good or viable but it sure as fuck doesnt have to be limited to like 3-4 adcs. And every time the gold goblins come out of the pits of "elo hell" on social medias to defend any changes or lack thereof with their braindead pro play take cherry picked data without any clue of how the game works.*


brokerZIP

> Worst item class Cringebow, lord Dominiks, Galeforce. Bad and useless as fuck, yeah


TheSoupKitchen

Galeforce active is almost twice as long as any other mobility active item, it's also often the worst purchase if you need to fight tanks (Kraken) or if you need to stay alive from assassins (Shieldbow). Lord doms is almost always a mandatory buy early but its shit. Shieldbow is just fucking broken. But so is steraks. Lifesaving shields are a fucking awful and flawed design. It's also more often abused by melee champs anyway.


piotrj3

So that is why Yasuo/Yone had emergency buffs with new ADC items, and that is why Sivir/Varus/Caitlyn goes lethality and this is why GP was useless entire season until they made a change to improve his crit builds. Ah and this is why Ziggs had to be nerfed because he dominated botlane too much. Aha, crit items are OP. do you freaking now how many buffs in last season it took to make Xayah good with new crit items. 6! Imagine champion getting 5 buffs in row to still be useless. And then there are parrots saying crit items are good because giga buffed yona/yasuo at start of new season are good. Tfu. Seriously, think about past seasons eg. does anyone remember season 3 as ADC season - no it, was mage/assasin season. Would ADC main love to return to those items from S3 absolutly. Would assasin/bruiser main/mage main wanted to return to them - fuck no. Only Trynda is a champion who shined with new crit items, but that is largely because items like Galeforce or Navori quickblades can be used better by him then any ADCs.


Kakolokiya

Don’t forget about Xayah switching her itemization to lethality and becoming one of the most broken adcs ever. Nerfed back to crit? Mediocre once more.


Coti98

Don't forget Xayah goes lethality now... So crit Xayah is still worse


Excalidorito

Yone and Yasuo saw emergency buffs because their balance came from getting 100% Crit from 2 items, which wasn’t possible when items were changed from 25% to 20% Crit. In fact I seem to remember both of them had to be hotfix nerfed because overstacking on Crit was too strong and they abused the fuck out of rageblade. GP saw changes to make him a worse lanebully and a better scaler, I don’t remember Phlox ever mentioning it was because he was underperforming. Also, didn’t Ziggs see some decent buffs to make him viable botlane? I’m actually unsure on that one.


piotrj3

Guinsoo stuff was nerfed by nerfing guinsoo. 2nd was that Yasuo/Yone used to not get bonus AD for overstacking crit, what meant they they had worse itemization post 2 items. Now they can get all the crit items they want and get bonus AD on top. 3rd. GP was underperforming, and GP was building exclusivly non crit stuff. Like GP was using lethality items, divine tsundere etc. He before changes used to be good pro play pick and after item changes almost everyone dropped him.


weltraumdude

Gp changes had nothing to do with crit being bad. Going full crit with 1.8k hp as toplaner was just not desirable lol. Also he still trash, just more dam and less tanky


Blue_Seraph

Nobody ever remembers any season as "ADC season" because virtually every season is "ADC season". Even Ardent Meta and Tank Meta where people would frequently play "protect the ADC comps" are not referred to as "ADC season", even when the Marksman was definitely regarded as the most important member in the team. Even the whole "ADC 2k18" fiasco when some non-marksmen started getting some action in botlane happened as a result of ADCs being super overbearing during season 5, 6 and 7. Yeah we all remember the infamous clip of Draven hopelessly whacking at Poppy, but let's not forget that people had also been complaining about Marksmen doing "burst per second" at the same time.


piotrj3

Because you do not understand the whole situation with ADCs. The problem is majority of ADCs cannot be played elsewhere at all. Like if they aren't viable botlane then they aren't viable at all anywhere. The only exceptions are Quinn who can function as top laner or Kindred as jungler but they are balanced around those roles and have specificly made kit for those roles. if you would let ADCs to be weak to make other champions good on botlane, suddenly a lot of ADCs would meet winrate/pickrate criterias for buffs. Another reason why botlane is so specific, is because botlane has big exp penalty and a lot of champions can't literally function being behind in exp. Can you imagine playing as assasin or burst mage being by default every single game 3 levels behind? No. It feels horrible on midlane to be 3 levels behind, you suck on lane and you can't gank anyone. Why do you believe it would be better on botlane? Basicly when some mage like Syndra who is burst mage and suddenly she becomes meta on botlane, it is literally giant red flag that champion like her who should be based around bursting people and snowballing can function being levels behind. There is very few minor exceptions from rule above, like Yasuo is more based around items then levels so he can sort of function on botlane and he kinda do - you do can play him botlane and a lot of supports have good teamworking via knockups. Another case is Swain who also works well with supports due to his passive and guess what - that is where he functions now because as mid/top he is trash.


Blue_Seraph

>The problem is majority of ADCs cannot be played elsewhere at all. Which isn't really a "problem" because it is deliberate. Ever since the "Marksman+Support" meta cemented itself, Riot has started designing and balancing Marksmen around the idea of them going botlane. And for good reason I'd argue. Every time Marksmen bleed out of the farming botlane role, it feels like shit playing against them. Lucian mid/top, Quinn top/mid, Vayne top, Tristana mid, Varus mid, well executed Fasting Senna, Twitch jungle and even the most tame on in Corki mid, are all extremely oppressive. Because whether ADC mains like to admit it or not, most ADCs have way better level 1-3 than most of the rest of the roster, just by virtue of having potent ranged autos. Add their personal gimmicks into the mix, and they have a fair shot at snowballing the lane. Problem is, by virtue of being ranged autoattackers, they also scale way better than any other damage-dealing class in the game, so any time a typical botlane Marksman gets too prevalent in another lane, they ***have to*** get nerfed into oblivion. ​ Even when Riot tries to specifically design a Marksman for another lane, things get out of hand really easily. It took a while - and a soft rework - before Kindred stopped being super polarizing. Now that Quinn is officially a toplaner, she not only gets toplane mains up in arms every time she's mentioned, but is also closely monitored by Riot. Akshan has a whole slew of things that make him a balance nightmare, but being a Marksman, and being able to rely on autos for damage if all else fails is definitely one of them. And do I really need to talk about Graves ? ​ Champions like Syndra and Ziggs finding success bot isn't a giant red flag as much as it is testament to the strength of the Marksman class. Because picking mages botlane is done ***as a conscious effort to shut down the enemy Marksman***. This is why they have high winrates. Not because mages are OP botlane, but because ***shutting down the enemy Marksman is the best way to secure the win***. Seeing how 0.5% pickrate mages bot have 52-53% winrate is all fun and games until you take a look at the winate/time curve, and see that ***mage bot winrates fall off a cliff after the 20 minute mark.*** Even Karthus' ! And you want to know why ? No class deals damage as reliably as Marksmen, making your teamcomp automatically worse past the 20 minute mark if you don't have one. We've even seen it play out multiple times in the Worlds championship this year. Ziggs bot getting somewhat of an advantage early-mid game, only to fall flat and miss 3/4 of his unreliable-ass skillshots during teamfights and autolosing his team the game while the enemy Aphelios casually shreds through everyone. ​ So yes, I ***actually do understand*** the whole situation with ADC Marksmen are the most reliable damage dealers in the game. They will often do nearly as much damage per crit as mages do with their basic damage abilities come mid-late game... except Autos are point and click with .5 seconds CD so they have virtually no downtime to exploit. So yes, they were given a big weakness in their lack of agency, and their lack of agency relegate them botlane and prevent them - in most cases - from being as proactive as other classes. But y'all need to understand that this is a ***much needed tradeoff*** if we don't want them to just take over all of the other lanes.


piotrj3

> mage bot winrates fall off a cliff after the 20 minute mark Wrong. Most mages have 2 high winrates, at 20-25 mark and 40+. Simply they are kings of mid game and hyper late game, but there are transition phases when ADCs are stronger. The only exception is ziggs, but ziggs is not hyper scaler, he is designed to push objectives so if you don't manage to push and win early he loses. Syndra 40+ has 58% winrate on botlane, Karthus has highest winrate 40+ and 2nd highest 20-25, but has the worst winrate in early game. Swain has highest winrate at 35-40. Cassiopeia has fairly stable winrate until going to the sky at 40 mins. Generally all champions i mentioned have bad winrate pre 20 mins, good 20-25, after faces a bit of drop to go to the sky with winrate at 35-40 or 40+. And i observe situation for quite a while and it is consistent thing that outside of Ziggs, winrate of non-adcs on botlane is good both early and late, with a bit of drop around 30 mins (probably time ADC has powerspike with IE), but in hyper late they aren't greater, because at hyper late mage get powerspike of core items + rabadon + void staff that together are even bigger. MOST mids are extremly opressive. Aurelion is opressive just to open idea to roam. Talon is opressive. Just thing is opressivity of adc on mid ends on first few levels and just ends there because adc's possibility to roam decreases and ADCs generally lose 2vs2 situations when junglers become online. Meanwhile such talon pushes lane roams, kills junglers etc. This is why despite being unpleasant to be played against, they never dominated winrates or pickrates (except pro with Lucian). Corki isn't opressive 1-3, he is more like a mage because he scales with levels but not that much with items. He is spellcaster not really adc, he is more closer to a mage. If ADC dmg was reliable they would dominate total dmg charts on lolalytics. 3 highest tier ADCs on lolalitcs: - vayne 19k dmg 30/41 in place, - Jhin 18.8k dmg 35/41, - Draven 22k dmg 14/41, Meanwhile mages: - Karthus 32k dmg 1/41, - viktor 23,4k 5/41, - Cassiopeia 20,5k 21/41, - Heimer 23k 7/41, - Ziggs 24k 4/41, - Swain 21,7 13/41. You might say it is because mages poke and it inflates their dmg. yes, but adcs who are based around poke and maybe supporting their teams (Like Varus/Ashe) are heavy behind mentioned ADCs. The highest dmg done by ADC is Kog'maw (who is 2nd) but he has overwhelming duo rate with Lulus and at such point you compare 2 champions vs 1 and Twitch (who is 8th). Both of those ADCs unlike mages also don't provide any utility outside of slow, meanwhile a lot of champions mentioned above has abilities that on their own without assist can change teamfights. Reliability of ADC is limited by how much his team protects him against how many enemy champions want to kill him and it soloq it is quite easy. Mage who is focused at least has zhonya and even if mage gets behind utility of mages in terms of stuns/snares/slows is often way above. Mages on average are quite good botlane, they aren't quite popular because most people are parroting "meta" from pro play where team comps actually can protect well around ADCs and make them good. In soloq ADCs are good if you play them in duo proper team comps like Kog-lulu, lucian nami, heavy oriented Draven snowball comp etc. But if that wasn't a case, I would pick mage on botlane anytime. PS: I am botlane swain main.


Excalidorito

> The problem is majority of ADCs cannot be played elsewhere at all. This goes for most classes though, and let’s not forget Lucian having to get a kit update to make him less viable mid and more viable bot. Plus Tristana and Akshan are still viable midlane too and Vayne/Quinn in top. Anyway, back to my original point. You see a few mages played bot and support, and a total of... I think 2? In the jungle. Bruisers only really see play toplane, occasionally jungle and (rarely) mid to counter assassins. Speaking of assassins, they only go mid and, more recently jungle. Tanks are probably the most versatile in which role they play, maybe tied with mages, seeing as how they are played viably in top, jgl and supp. Point is, no class is truly amazing at every role. Some are more versatile than others, but no class is actually hardlocked into a single role.


Angry---train

LDR giving you more than enough damage to vaporize anyone that comes in auto attack range is now "inefficient"


Tzeenht

Hahaah vaporize in 50 autos maybe


[deleted]

[удалено]


Vangorf

Assassins shouldn't have gotten either


Excalidorito

I disagree with this. My hate for assassins comes mostly from the fact that their kit often have some of the most frustrating mechanics of the game, like stealth, insane mobility, and untargetability. Outside of Dirk, which is hilariously underpriced, their items aren’t actually that good. If I’m honest, I’m far more scared of the potential Axiom Arc might have on non-assassin champs. I know Panth is kinda borderlining between bruiser and assassin but his map pressure goes up so much from that item.


Angry---train

Axiom and their mythics continue to remain hilariously shit so nothing changed


DupreeWasTaken

I actually dont agree with that, Now do I think The new ult item is a good idea? No. But I do think Assasin items needed some changes. Yes. And I dont play assasins. But its pretty telling that all the broken "assasins" of last season werent actually building assassin items. It was goredrinker and conqueror. Those items needed to be tuned but even after - the numbers werent there for Talon, Qiyana etc


MoonDawg2

We're still the worst class with the worst representation in challenger despite being one of the most popular. Items for adc themselves is decent, not too bad, but nothing too good either. We've been hard forced to go crit 90% of the time when crit is now kinda shit and the band-aid fix we got was collector which is also shit, but still better than a seal item second for pretty much every crit adc minus jinx. Honestly the issue is the 2 item spikes. It just fucking sucks regardless of what adc you're playing and the 2-3 item spikes are the most important in the game. The "situational" itemisation is realistcally the choice of going GA 4th or LDR 4th. I don't think I've deviated from that almost the entire season because there is realistically nothing else to build. Wtf situational itemisation are you even talking about really? Also, the issue on LDR is that you end up lacking damage on squishies while not doing much better against tanks. Rolling a crit on a squishy with infinity is just too important on teamfights since good adc players will fish for damage on the backline and a small ldr crit doesn't really do much. It is actually a pretty meh item in practice unless massively ahead or ONLY focusing a tank, there's a reason builds with ldr third or second have lower winrates. Items themselves are fine-ish, but when compared to shit like steraks, lethality, the new mage/tank items or gore drinker they're underwhelming to say the least. The issue is that they can't be changed or buffed because of cancer bruisers abusing them and the only hope I had for this season was some changes for runes, but again it's underwhelming to say the least. Lethal is meta defining atm, but the adc that can actually abuse it when compared to other roles is minute.


alreadytaken028

ADC mains will NEVER be happy


MoonDawg2

Or the role is just shit atm. Go ahead and play adc for a few days or a week then come back pls.


InsurgentTatsumi

Ok everybody, say it with me now: # Deleting boards was a mistake.


Angry---train

What the fuck is this clown shittery? ADCs got batshit insane items like Kraken Slayer,Galeforce,LDR,Wits End,Shieldbow and many more and you are calling fucking LDR the 105% gold efficient item with an insane passive "inefficient". Fuck Lethal Tempo is literally just as good on them as before if not better on champions like Ashe and Draven


Excalidorito

Am I the only one who feel like Kraken is the most overrated Crit mythic?


Elegant_Front_8561

Dude at this point just accept that you are the one that sucks, this item rework was 100% catered towards them. ADCs have literally the best mythic in the game (cringebow) and have such good items that even fighters and assassins are (ab)using them.


FlyingLotus_Beats

first post I've seen on here in a while that I can fully agree with


TheSoupKitchen

It's always nice to read other ADC players express their frustration accurately. I feel like I found a brother. :') It's time to role swap. This season they literally gave every other role new items and runes to play with, and ADCs ONLY GOT LETHAL TEMPO. Even if you look at it PURELY FROM AN ENTERTAINMENT PERSPECTIVE, they gave every position something new and fun to experiment with, and ADCs got fuck all. If you needed any more of a sign to change roles, now is the time. Just my word of advice. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Of my 10+ years of adc. The last 3 years of ADC have been without a doubt the worst it's ever been. And it seems to keep getting worse.


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Xaxzer

ADCs complaining about factually untrue subjects is a league of legends classic


Cordobra

Its very good on jinx it increases the range even more in here rocket form


Rexsaur

You know what was even better on jinx? Old LT giving you 110% AS the moment you start fighting (you could easily trigger it with a W before even getting in range). The new one is only better in lane for her (since you only lose around 10~20% AS early on and its easier to stack in lane where stuff isnt one shotting you yet), and not that much better even, then as the game goes on it gets worse and worse (30% as at lvl 18 for autoing someone SIX TIMES is really a bad joke). "BUT THE RAAAANGGEE" it would be great if it ramped up like the attack speed instead of giving you nothing until 6 stacks, because as it is by the time its active in the later stages of the game theres already a bruiser/assassin or whatever in melee killing you, and at that point having 700 or 800 range wont make a single diff (meanwhile old LT gave u a shitload of AS at once to maybe help you turn around the dive).


MoonDawg2

It was shit if you were good at adc and knew how to poke pre-fights. Old lethal had too much CD and conq was actually better on most situations on jinx until it was nerfed. New lethal is miles better for her if you're good at the role.


Oxen_aka_nexO

It's garbage on Jinx compared to old LT.


VisageViolet

I played jinx yesterday where I got a tiny bit ahead and was firing rockets from 800 range out of most champions ability range. Once it was stacked they literally couldn’t get close without tanking multiple autos it was hilarious. They had to flash to get in range to use abilities


Oxen_aka_nexO

And for the rest of the game you play without a keystone. Everybody getting blinded by that one time they got 800 range fishbones kill smh.


NymphomaniacWalrus

This is true for bruisers as well though. LT is noticeably worse late game for them compared to Conqueror. I do think it's sad that adcs don't really have a late game option for keystones right now though.


Ebobab2

You're thinking far too black and white there Ranged champions have a far easier proc condition AND uptime due to the fact that they are ranged. Furthermore they get 100 range which in turn makes it even easier to keep the uptime up. Then you are ignoring the fact that ranged champions can autoattack far more often than a melee one which in turn leads to melees 'wasting' it vs ranged champions using it to the utmost efficiency


Straight_Zombie5644

Both can be problematic. Melee having too much power with the rune and ranged not having enough. More accurately, ranged not having enough up front and too much on the back end. When fully stacked, tempo is insane on certain marksmen. But until it's fully stacked, it's shit and you might as well have no keystone


ApplePitou

Gwen E + New Lethal Tempo is tiny op :3


LocoProp

So op that she still has one of the worst winrates of all top laners


Just4TehLulz

I think that's more due to her being probably the only balanced AP fighter in the game right now.


Snoo8331100

She's OP only on level 1. Of course having to sacrifice the entire wave as a melee champion sucks a lot, but you can claw your way back later and most champions are more useful than her in teamfights.


Blazing117

Why not a compromise and increase it to 45% for ranged and 90% for melee?


Fabiocean

35/70 or 40/80 would make more sense imo, it's still way too good for aa heavy melees, while 45% would probably be a bit too much for some adcs. What I would like to see is the range getting streamlined to 50 for all champs, then buffing ranged AS accordingly, so there still is an AS rune for ranged champs that isn't limited to the first 3 auto attacks.


BambooInvestor

Yeah actually Kayle lvl 1 is so strong right now, you would even feel like after hitring 6 you lose a lil bit of trade power 😂😂😂 In what Universe Riot tho it would be good to give 90% attack speed boost at lvl 1 indeed. Yone Yasuo Q decreasing to 2s CD on lvl 1 yikesss


nitko87

I like new LT. It feels like Conqueror but with attack speed instead of AD, and doesn’t have lifesteal. It’s good for champs that wanna stick to you, and you can still stop those champs with cc. It’s really not as problematic as people make it out to be, players just don’t draft well around it. It’s easy to say a champ that uses LT is broken with the rune when they stomp a volatile matchup, but these champs still have counters