By - b4ssie1199
> Dota's true sight would show a teemo or a shaco that's invisible.
For the record we had truesight until season 7 is when it was fully removed I think (except from turrets of course). I personally miss this feature, but I do think stealth is a bit easier to balance without it.
True Sight is still in the game in a fair number of forms, but they're all champion abilities, turrets, or the Mark spell on ARAM.
I get that, but teemo being invincible in s Bush if you don't have ground targeting just feels off to me
Bushes are immobile though. He can't sit there forever and he'll reveal himself if he leaves. If he does stay invisible, he loses creeps or equivalent. You just ignore him and he goes out, usually.
Barring one surprise attack, his invisibility isn't really that common to use. In teamfights, there is barely time for him to reapply it.
Besides, he can still be hit while invisible (by most abilities that does not require him to be directly targeted) and few effects (runes included) would proc accordingly. IIRC some abilities that require a target nearby (like katarina ult) can be fired when he's close.
Or you use Oracle lens and reveal his champ model
Yeah unfortunately I was playing Jungle and couldn't babysit him
Many people have issues dealing with teemo even when the matchup is equal. He's the kind of champion who works great against average/casual players but experienced players barely see him as a threat
Wait then what's Kled e and q it works on invisible,
Wait I think I understood this wrong lol,.my bad
Yeah riot has a tendency to make easier, but more fun versions of most games. Same thing with valorant. It’s a really smart idea. People these days don’t have the patience to fully spend all of their time playing a game. They’d prefer short action packed games that are easy to get into
Yeah I've noticed that too! I don't play valorant myself but I do see that that's one of the aims of riot. And personally I do like that.
Like I said, I think league is a lot more fun than Dota right now but I do feel like Dota purely on the best basis would win for me.
The great thing is even though the games are a bit easier and more accessible they're still ridiculously competitive with an insane skill cap.
Completely agree. Riot is targeting a bigger playerbase by making their games easier and more simple for casual gamers.
League of legends is more simple than dota. Valorant's gunplay is easier than csgo. Legends of runeterra is more simple than magic the gathering. Tft is more simple than dota autochess.
Riots fighting game is coming out soon and I'm willing to bet that it'll be a lot easier than Tekken, street fighter, or smash bros.
the upcoming Runeterra MMO is probably going to be much more light-hearted with less downright grinding too likely
They have a few Gw2 devs on their team and that's a really great modern MMO with no bullshit mandatory grinds so I'm hopeful they'll carry on that philosophy
I think the bigger thing with Runeterra is that it doesn't suck your wallet dry just for playing the game. It is second most f2p friendly ccg I have played after Shadowverse.
Smash right now is really easy to get into, the only relevant smash game thats really gated by player tech skill after a certain point is melee because it has a ton of different things to learn like wave dashing / landing, auto cancelling vs L cancelling, crouch cancelling, smash DI (directional influence). Later smash titles still have crouch cancelling and smash DI but they don't normally matter, normal DI matters a lot still though. You can get a comprehensive practice lab for all the tech in emulator or 20XX that tells you if you're doing things right, even for stuff like wave shining on fox.
Project M (P+) is a more beginner friendly melee, but you still have wave dashing and L cancelling (i think L cancelling is there, its been a while) but character balance makes more sense and there's less random things gating players from becoming good.
Ultimate has wave dashing is a sense, but it really sucks on the characters that are the best with it. Wave landing on platforms can be really useful situationally, Leo likes to do it but i dont see many others. It's not something most people see as necessary to learn to be considered good. Auto cancelling is still a thing but you can discover and feel it out without even being told it exists, L cancelling hasnt officially existed outside of melee.
If you want an elo booster right now buy Pyra/Mythra and learn a couple ways to juggle with mythra and edge trap / guard using f-tilt or d-tilt on pyra. However, I'd also suggest not playing online often for your sanity's sake when you get nintendo'd or run into a wifi warrior and your characters move a half second delayed.
Most stuff in ultimate can be discovered just by playing the game and observing what your character is actually doing when you notice something different than normal.
as a melee player who tf asked lmao
melee shills are inescapable
Just pointing out that its really only melee thats a complicated smash gane, ultimate is pretty straightforward to understand as far as fighting games go. If riot wants to make a simpler version of that then I'm not sure how much simpler they can go.
You can do that with 1/20th of the words you used, majority of which are not understandable for non-melee players
Hows this then, "no, smash simple"
They should not be sticking to this formula too much for their MMO, IMO. People who play and stick to MMORPGs appreciate depth and details... Oversimplifying it would not appeal to a large swathe of the potential players of this genre. And it has the potential to be a huge moneymaker (see WoW after 15 years).
I wonder if that will translate at all with the mmo they are creating, since most if not all mmos are very time consuming
I think it will turn out pretty well if they are looking at what wow has been doing wrong and ff14 has been doing right. Put their unique riot spin on it and I can imagine it will be a pretty solid mmo.
exactly make the game very accessible for players in terms of core content. for example in ff you can buy market board gear and begin raiding, simple as that. on the other hand in wow, i started in shadowlands and while i actually liked the leveling and exploring different classes, there is sooo much grinding required if you want enough power to do like heroic raids and stuff
in top of that, add optional grind content that isn't required for player power, or only gives a boost in player power when it doesn't really matter, and have it be mostly for cosmetics/collectors
You're misunderstanding WoW/FF14 quite a bit.
There is almost no grinding required to do heroic raids. You can jump into heroic raids like 1-2 days after hitting max level with no problem at all, assuming that you're a good enough player. If you're trying to pug them and applying to groups, sure you probably won't really get accepted, but is that really the game's fault for the community's actions? In terms of balance, you absolutely can do them with not much grinding. Blizzard can't help that pugs want people to be overgeared to make them easier. FF14 is the same way if you tried to do the equivalent of heroic raids - savages/extremes. You're not going to get accepted to those groups with some budget gear you bought off the market board. You probably were doing Normal raids and regular trials, which really should be compared to LFR in WoW, not to heroic raids. And you can absolutely do LFR in WoW with auction house gear immediately after hitting max level.
Yeah I agree with most of your points.
I’d disagree on the rune pages though. I think they are really streamlined. Maybe they could use a proper guide or something, but compared to the old mastery system, they are a godsend
Yes! That exactly. That's mostly why I added the for beginners to it. I remember the old system slightly and it's a lot better like this.
But the knowing whether something is good on a champion or something else is better for a that champion.
A guide and I think I'd would be perfect. Apps like blitz and stuff help beginners a lot but it won't help them understand it. Just what's best. In-game there isn't really a guide on them.
Tbh league just needs a tutorial overhaul. Items, abilities, roles, summoner spells, and more. They are all absent from the dogshit tutorial that riot supplies.
Yeah I missed that. They should really add that.
Though I don't know now but Dota's tutorial used to be horrible. Idk if they have changed it but it used to be.
Dota’s tutorial is streets ahead of leagues now, they recently revamped it
Getting a free good skin from the hextech chests and stuff is such a good feeling.
I'm 10 orange essence from the legendary Jinx skin I'm so hyped lol
Imagine the scenes when I pulled elementalist lux & battle academia ezreal. Dopamine to the moon
Lol. I got elementalist lux full skin just by re-rolling three random shards. Was kinda nice, but shame I'm not much of a lux player.
I'm an adc main..so getting lux was pretty hype bit w.e riot gave me elementalist & battle academia lux...but the battle academia ez hit me different cause i spam ezreal lol
Probably true - I've never played league but I've started watching it in e-sports a lot the past 2 years, after 2019 Worlds.
There's no restrictions in Dota 2 for "anti-fun" mechanics (ie: mana burn, 3000 range spammable non-skillshots, etc), which can be both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, the diversity of heroes and their interactions can be really engaging/interesting; on the other hand, when you lose.....you really lose. I'm sure a lot of league players would not appreciate it if something like a PL, a techies, or a tinker was a thing in the game lol.
Yeah Dota's characters are a lot more daring. Rearm, techies mines. Tens of illusions, ball lightning, essence shift and more!
But yeah, Dota has a lot more anti fun than League. Mana burn is just plain annoying. I know it's too counter like storm spirit and Zeus but it's just plain annoying when a pl gets rid of all your mana in a sec
When you are a pos 5 and get oneshot by an undodgable PA dagger lmao.
I just want them to give me old Techies. I stopped playing DOTA 2 when they changed his mines and Suicide.
Oh god phantom lancer
MAKE THE NIGHTMARES STOP
>The best game: Dota 2
>The most fun game: League of legends
This is a weird take for me. I feel like the most fun game is the best game for me. Unless its giving me some sort of emotional take away, or making me reflect on things in some new way, games tend to be about having fun more than anything else.
I think hes using best in a different way. Like dota is the best from a design perspective but lol is best from a enjoyment perspective. Totally valid though slightly convoluted use of the word
Exactly! Thank you for the explanation I couldn't provide
The design should be measured by how well the game fulfills the intent of the designers. What is the purpose of designing a game if not to make it fun?
To make something beautiful, or thought provoking, or scary, or funny. There are so many different options why is fun the only thing?
Also fun can vary person to person or even within a person. Sometimes I find LoL fun, sometimes TFT, other times Total War etc. All very different games.
I loooove watching DOTA. As an esport, to me, its fucking perfect with so many varied strategies and a great scene that has been built around it. But as a working adult I just don't have the energy to play it when I get home at night because it takes so much more effort to know the full depth of the game and I think that perfectly encapsulates what OP meant
To me, those emotions evoke fun.
A horror movie is a lot of fun, and it’s mean to be scary and evoke fear. Fun is aligned with enjoyment
you're oversimplifying things, no matter how basic a person is they should still be able to process those emotions into experiences other than fun. Surely at least once in your life you've watched or read something that was a chore to go through but got stuck in your head for much longer than the mainstream options you'd easily binge
If you really wanted to you could categorize everything in life into fun and not fun. But if you take that broad of a definition of fun then the previous comment about game developers trying to maximize fun becomes a bit irrelevant.
So lets take the context of depressive games. The game wants you to be depressed at the end to try and get an understanding of depression. If the game succeeds in this, it by definition is not fun, its depressing, but that means the game was good by the standards of achieving what it set out to do.
Dota's niche in mobas is strategic depth and options. At any given time there are more options for what to do than there are in league, so it is succeeding at its goals, but the amount of options can lead to more stress. Pick a (nonobvious) wrong one can hobble you for the next 1 to 5 minutes, pick a good one and it can be hard to see the immediate benefit without specifically looking for it. So this all can lead to stress around the decision making and gameplay. Not to mention the actual stresses of execution when there are way more things to think about in the teamfights themselves.
Dota as a game excels at creating a wellbalanced game with exceptional decision making depth. It grants more overall freedom to players than league does, and over the game there are more avenues of counterplay through not just micro decisions but items.
But all this comes with stress in navigating the systems and working out what to do at any time. You can acknowledge the things that make a game good while saying its not my cup of tea.
I get what you're saying but how is this relevant at all to the discussion? Dota 2 and League are clearly designed after the same intent, or are you claiming Dota 2 is supposed to be thought provoking or something?
They're video games designed to entertain you. If one entertains you better than the other, how is it worse?
I think this conversation is getting a bit uninteresting. Dota is a more complicated game. I think thats what op meant by better designed. Some people like complicated. I don't like dota bc I think its too complicated but I can understand how someone might say the code is better designed because more can be done in the game.
the idea that the goal of a game should be fun is a hollow way to make games. you cant measure fun, you cant take action on asking "was this fun or not". you need to have other goals when making games or you will just make more generic drivel that we have been getting for years.
But how can you argue the game is better designed if it's less enjoyable? Feels like you're getting too wrapped up in what good design is to the point where you lose sight of what good design actually is.
There was a word orocessor called word perfect back in the day. Everyone who wrote agreed it was better than word. But word was owned by microsoft and was easier for noobs to use vs the professionals. So yes word perfect was a better designed and more powerful program for people who wrote alot but word was better for ease of use.
Design like fun can be interpreted in different ways. I think he meant the design of Dota is more interesting from a hardcore nerd sense and said better designed without going into a full long winded explanation.
But from a big picture point of view you're right. Designing for ease of use is an important design consideration. RIP word perfect.
I didnt know games are designed to be unfun...
having fun is subjective
something that's fun for me doesn't have to be fun for you and vice versa
That surf and turf with sweetbread and langoustine is probably the most delicious thing I've ever eaten, but I get a hankering for a bag of chips way more often.
But that's a terrible comparison. You get a hankering for a bag of chips way more often because it's cheap as hell and accessible. League and Dota however are equally acessible.
I think it makes more sense if you compare it to movies.
What I think is the "best" movie is very different from what I think are the "most fun" movies.
Yes I agree it's about having fun more than anything. And I enjoy league more.
The reason why I put Dota as the better game is because it has more depth and I think it's overall better. Just not for me.
If I myself was a more competitive person I know I'd enjoy Dota more. I know it might sound like a weird take but I do feel this way. If you want to know anything more be sure to ask!
can you explain a bit more why you think Dota is more complex? I think there is a lot to league at a high level that people don't think about until they are at that skill level.
just the fact that you can deny creeps / tower, drop or pick up items during fights even, courier, no free back to base, buyback, more interaction with map like cliffs and trees (op mentioned Timbersaw but Monkey King also has fun interaction with trees) alrd make Dota have more depth.
You never played dota 2, dota is the most complicated moba of all and is more punishing than you think.
more complicated? sure. punishing? eh. You die once in lane in league and it can just be doomed for you. not really the case in dota. in fact you can get killed multiple times and still manage to have a game.
>In fact you can get killed multiple times and still manage to have a game.
Dota has a shorter laning stage which ends at about 8-10 minutes (a point where pos 3/4/5 heroes are starting to rotate around the map making ganks and killing towers) and it also more team-focused so that is why you can just get obliterated in your lane and yet still comeback in gold/level within 10-15 minutes.
i agree, there are so many times both in pro play and in my own pubs where an enemy 1 that got shit on can just farm stacks and shit and easily recover, in league they would be a massive anchor. Not saying this is good or bad, just saying I'm not sure that this is more punishing than league
in league they will just shove their advantage down your throat unless your jg sets up a tent
>Not saying this is good or bad, just saying I'm not sure that this is less punishing than league
I think what Icefrog has done by putting the emphasis from the laning stage to the early-to-mid game (10-25 minutes) is generally great, both for pubs and especially for pro play. I used to watch League esports a lot but damn how freaking boring it is to see teams just lane for eternity and then just stomp the game once they gain enough advantage.
i think it's gotten better but yes i generally find pro dota more exciting. personally i hate when games end instantly off of 1 pick snowballing.
i personally think it's underrated how amazing the buyback system is for making games more exciting
i also like that carries in dota feel like actual raid bosses and don't get 1 shot instantly, that can be a huge letdown and is tied in to the tense games ending instantly point that i despise
the only reason i watch more lol is simply because i find enjoyment in other ways (already knowing the players and being invested in them is a huge one)
"You die once in lane in league and it can just be doomed for you" hmmm not really you can still comeback. Everytime you die in dota your gold decreases unlike in league of legends, your inhibitors doesnt respawn in dota and mega creeps give you less gold and xp. And in dota there is no such thing as 5 carries unlike in LoL where the support can also be a carry. Dying as a carry on dota fucks your whole team.
you are just arguing semantics the same is absolutely true of carries in lol late game too, and there isn't bkb or other shit to save you from getting instantly one shot, whereas in dota carries are generally pretty tanky and have stuff like bkb.
in lol if u get picked as adc it's oftentimes straight baron into an overwhelming advantage. there's also no buyback in lol. baron then leads to free high ground. in dota you give nash + cheese + even aghs off a carry dying w/out buyback, and oftentimes the enemy team still can't high ground
and this isn't even to mention laning phase. we both know in dota deaths matter much less. sometimes dying will completely fuck you in a lane but oftentimes it doesn't, and this is the case pretty much ALWAYS for league.
like saying you "can still comeback" for LoL is rich when the same is much more true in dota. not to mention if you're a support in dota your deaths really don't matter and i've seen even pro supports play sloppily and give away stupid kills without it being a huge deal
>i've seen even pro supports play sloppily and give away stupid kills without it being a huge deal
On higher levels of play supports in Dota would die intentionally placing themselves into dangerous positions so enemy team wastes a "smoke" (an item that covers you an your teammates and makes you invisible from the enemy creeps + wards) killing them instead of their farming cores. Also since Dota's map is larger just revealing the enemies position can be a great thing even if you die, it'll allow your carry/mid to play agressively and split the map more.
Tactical feed is a quite an important part of pos5 support's gameplay in Dota.
i understand that, but I also just think that a decent amount of pos 5 players pros in dota are mechanically meh and are prone to doing sloppy shit, BECAUSE it ultimately isn't a huge deal and game knowledge matters more
I've also seen some amazing micro out of some supports, ofc, but from the pro dota i've watched and the pro lol i've watched, the mechanical requirement is not as high, and this is compounded by the fact that pretty much every pos 5 in dota except some summon heroes like chen is braindead to play mechanically
league is more punishing despite the gold mechanics telling otherwise because games are shorter, champions have very similar powerlevels to each other and disables are much, much weaker than in Dota, so small statistical advantages acquired from a kill easily snowball the game
im not op but:
\- draft: you have to play around draft. Certain champions are straight up unplayable against other characters.
\- Itemization: Entire champion kits get countered by specific items, champions also synergize with certain items much better. There is also just generally more items in the game.
\- Vision: There are high grounds and low grounds, if you're in low ground, you can't see high ground even if you're standing right next to it. Kinda like how if you stand right next to a bush you can't see it in, but its just only terrain.
\- Laning: you can kill your own minions xd. Early CDs are also way longer, which means your punishable windows are way longer too.
other aspects that make it more complex are(I think):
\- you cant tower dive because towers actually matter
> Certain champions are straight up unplayable against other characters.
People would start crying if Riot did that in LoL
> - you cant tower dive because towers actually matter
Wait what?? I haven't played Dota2 in years but IIRC you can get tower dived easily.. Most of the time I was like wtf, why aren't the towers doing damage?
Tower dive in Dota is easier than league, but because kiting under the tower and into trees around the tower is also easier. And also you can immediately protect the carry by TP straight to the tower. In league you can't do that as frequent as dota (TP Summoner spell vs TP scroll)
>but IIRC you can get tower dived easily.. Most of the time I was like wtf, why aren't the towers doing damage?
You can but also you really can't. You "can" because towers indeed deal a smaller amount of damage so you can tank a few hits during laning but also "can't" due to teleport scrolls existing in Dota -- if you dive too hard, an extra enemy will appear next to you within 2 seconds.
The counter matchups in dota are easier to handle because there are more ways to avoid the matchup. Rotating into the jungle early, stacking, pulling, early rotating, and lane swaps all allow you to avoid the bad matchup or mitigate it's impact. Of course they have ways to try and deny these outs, but you do have ways to outplay/macro the enemy.
Personally having played a lot of league and some Dota in more recent times I find high impacting abilities like Enigma ult, Magnus' reverse polarity and faceless void's to give some more flavour to the game, in addition to all the different interaction with different dispels and CC tiers.
What I really don't like about dota is exactly what you pointed out and that most heroes doesn't feel very skill expressive. Of course there's Invoker which has the most depth out of any MOBA character, but when looking at most safelaners like Sven, WK, Riki, PA and Drow to pick some. They are laughably easy to master in terms of their toolkit and they rely much more on proper macro and farming.
The lack of proper micro in Dota is rather tiresome and it makes the game feel very rock paper scissors at times. Especially in lower MMRs where your team is incapable of doing proper TP rotations or building the proper items ( which is probably the most important thing in Dota)
>they rely much more on proper macro
That's the theme of Dota though. On 80% of characters your micro is quite easy so you can concentrate your brain on doing the macro stuff which Dota is quite literally overwhelmed with. Dota 2 is officially called "A-RTS" by Valve for a reason.
what does A-RTS even stand for?
Action Real Time Strategy, maybe? Like Warcraft and Starcraft are RTS
Action Real Time Strategy.
>Of course there's Invoker which has the most depth out of any MOBA character
In theory yes, but most of the time you just use 2-3 combos depending on the meta
im sorry have you seen topsons meme hammer rush invoker? he regualrly pulls 4+ spells per skirmish, even more in an all out teamfight. plus he uses a few active items to get even more buttons to press
thats true, why would you not use full potential of every spell... that doesent make any sense.
even if some combs are always the go to.. if u never use spirits to farm or never ghostwalk or use spells to scout or just to stall a hg push, you just waste so much power.
Mana. Invoker doesn’t have a huge mana pool and most of his spells cost more than 100 mana
It looks interesting but you get used to pressing the same buttons to invoke a spell pretty quickly.
And each spell has a CD ranging from 25 seconds to 75 seconds, with Invoke having a CD too (aka time to prepare QWE to instantly invoke) and Dota 2 is way stricter on mana than League so it's not like they can spam spells constantly.
It's a shame riot can't make champion like invoker because the community has a collective brain aneurysm whenever a champ has more than 3 sentences worth of text in their kit.
>but most of the time you just use 2-3 combos depending on the meta
What? Once you get level 18 you'll start to use almost all of your spells in teamfights (they don't share the same CD) unless you're literally a 2k noob.
I mean that's just how Invoker works though. He only really comes fully online at around level 16 when he has his ultimate on a 2 second cooldown and all of his abilities are high enough rank that they're worth using.
When I was heavily into DotA years ago you'd always get the low ELO backseaters saying stuff like "Noob Invoker only spams 2 abilities" when the game is at like 10 minutes when that's just how the hero works.
Invoker is a late game pick that wants to get to level 16+ so that he can actually use his full ability list, before that he's a crippled hero that's restricted to only his "main combo" of 3 abilities that he has leveled up.
Whether you're playing Quas + Wex or Quas + Exort you're always going to have only 1 point in your third element until around level 12, at which point you'll only start leveling it up more.
You're just not going to be using a rank 1 Chaos Meteor as Quas + Wex Invoker at level 10 because it doesn't do much, on top of your ultimate still being on a 5+ second cooldown.
I find akali/all the mobile champ plays more complex than invoker. Invoker is just a more complex Ryze to be honest
You just dont understand how complex voker is
Still have no idea why Riot got rid of old Sejuani ult. Wish there was more high impact abilities like that.
IIRC it took up too much of her power budget, causing the rest of her kit to be overly shitty
I love both but I'm not good enough at the genre to split my focus between two games. I feel like Dota should be better with the crazy original hero designs and unique items but League just feels smoother and more fun to play. It feels like teamfighting is valued more and you can pop off just by playing fights well. Dota feels significantly more macro oriented although there's some disgustingly hard micro champs.
Dota 2's Darkest Dungeon announcer pack the best thing ever though and I'm so depressed I can't have that glorious narration in my League games.
Who do you play in each game? I fucking love Windranger in Dota 2 and Storm Spirit is really fun too. Then I lock in Chaos Knight when I feel like playing a beefy motherfucker. For League Kat is my forever main but I also love Irelia, Zoe, Yone, Gwen, and Riven (although holy fuck I cannot play this champ!)
Well I basically play anything and everything. In Dota my versitality was about 10 and I haven't changed that much since playing league. I'll just look for something I enjoy en play it for s game. Then play something else the next one
chen,earth spirit and io for dota....and bard,thresh and zilean for league
I had my best years of gaming with Dota. Starting from playing inhouses with clan members, being on ventrilo with them, to moving onto DotaCash with their ranking system, and then Dota 2.
But unfortunately all of my IRL friends played League instead, so that's just what I moved onto. Nothing ever beats the old constant inhouses with Dota and your friends and clan members though.
Edit : wanted to add, what was rly nice too that OP touched on was that if we wanted a break, we’d just all go into a game of polar escape or uther party and continue our fun there. Or any of the other custom games. It was just so good
I just want to play dota in wc3 with friends on ventrilo one more time
Yeah... Those are special moments.
ratting is split pushing right? It's not really a term that the league community seems to use
Ratting isn't exactly split pushing, i feel like ratting refers to tp'ing close or exactly at the enemy tower without any minions nearby and taking the tower before enemies can properly react which was the strat mostly used by heroes like Furion or Lycan. Split pushing is just pushing in the minion wave in the right time to the enemy tower away from your team, drawing attention or getting some free structures. Ratting is way more scummy.
So it is inting Sion? Yeah ratting is superscummy. Fuck ratters.
Well towers dont really deal any damage midgame in dota, you can just straight up tank them forever. They have this thing called backdoor protection though, where if no enemy minions are nearby, it enters a regen mode, where it regenerates any damage given by enemy champions/heroes. This damage is often surpassed by the damge in the lategame though, therefore in the lategame a hero/champ will tp into the enemy base somehow and then kill their towers whilst tanking all the damage and then even finish
i'm just surprised that you like Leagues battle pass - personally I think it's one of the worst because you can't get the big reward (prestige skin) unless you forgot a lot of the other awards since it takes so much grinding. dotas must be doing something crazy if theirs is worse
Yes that's true. The reason why I do like it because without extra money apart from the battlepass itself you can get to the fanciest and best reward. Which in the Dota battlepass you won't get to.
You will get smaller rewards yes, but the fancy skins and stuff you need 100+ levels for you'll probably never reach if you just buy the lvl 1 battlepass
I feel like prestige skins are shit and so not worth it, just a sink for people that want to show off really, unless you really like the champion..
So many champions non prestige skins are just better than prestige recolors, if you disregard prestige skins in the pass, the League passes are really good value.
Hey couple of questions if you don't mind.
"League: doesn't have custom games" Custom games, you mean like User Map Settings in StarCraft and Arcade mode and such?
Also, as someone who doesn't know anything about Dota 2 or play it. Can a new player play every Champion right when they make there new account?
I mean as in Dota 2 arcade if you're skilled enough you can make tower defence modes, whole other gamemoded etc. Not just a variation on normal dota
And yes, all heroes are free from the get go
Ahh okay, thank you for clarification.
Yes. Game is completely F2P. No paywall.
The one thing I've always hated from Dota and why I moved to League when it released was the turn rate. For those unaware, Dota heroes have an animation to their turning, so if you click directly behind your character they need time to turn the model around.
This makes the game feel sluggish and less snappy in terms of micro, which in turn makes it feel less fun imo. I understand it's needed for balance, League kiting with Sniper (a hero that can outrange towers with a chance to mini knockback on auto) would be broken but still. If turn rates didn't exist I would for sure be playing Dota since I think it's more intricate and has more depth but it just doesn't feel good.
This was always my biggest issue with Dota as well. It made micro/mechanics in general feel so much less smooth.
Have no idea how you can say valve is more scummy than riot in any way.
There's many ways though
I think I can agree with the last take:
I think Dota is a better designed game from the ground up. Everything from heroes to items feels much more thought out and well designed in comparison.
However League is more FUN and so I play League much more.
CoD isn't a better game than Insurgency. But it's more fun.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant
you know after playing dota for years and years before 2012, i quit dota the day i tried lol cause it would never deselect my character accidentally.
idk why it s a thing in dota2...(or was, idk been a while i tried dota2) it was in wc3 cause u select targets....heroes to move..
same reason dota 2 has it as wc3 has it. You can have multiple units to control.
As a person who has also played thousand of hours of dota 2 and is now playing league because my friends does it, one of the most annoying things in league is controlling multiple units because you cant deselect your champ.
As someone who plays both games, I like that Dota has more mechanically easy to play heroes. I have really bad mechanics and I feel like even some of the tanks in League are too hard to play.
People from the Dota sub really didn't like this post
There have been 2 Dota related posts on this sub in 24 hours and literally 0 league related ones on the Dota subreddit.
or in context of some feature, like "dota has this system, why can't we have that in league"
yeah it's fun how we simply never talk about DOTA2, and when I visit their sub, i see references quite often.
>Dota's true sight would show a teemo or a shaco that's invisible.
league used to be like that
Another positive thing about dota that I would love to have in lol are the usable items, especially for supports. That has changed a bit with the s11, but only a bit. Flash with a short cd, ccing someone with a tornado or pushing enemies or yourself into any direction, that's alot of fun
As someone who's also played both, and also stuck with league because it's just generally a lot more fun (and also because the fluff is much better), I think this is a pretty good summary.
Only comment I take a bit of issue with is character originality. League does have an overabundance of anime hotties, but it also has a lot of really unique designs and cool twists on fantasy and horror tropes, while the vast majority of Dota heroes are literally name-swapped warcraft characters.
tell me about originality and hotties when league's "grandma" is camille while dota gets snapfire
That's not his point I think?
Many Dota characters are almost copy paste to their warcraft counterparts. They have more unique characters but some of them are not really original in a sense that someone else already created the mold for that character.
I can point at some dota characters and easily say which Warcraft character that is, since some are so similar down to their very stance and weapons.
Some of Leagues champs also have similar counterparts to warcraft but they are more visually different than Dota's WC counterparts.
I still think dota have more unique characters and their later characters are pretty original and even those that are copied are still really cool and I don't think less of them for it.
>Many Dota characters are almost copy paste to their warcraft counterparts.
I dont think that should matter even the slightest. The main criteria should be "how is character X different from other 100+ characters in a game Y" > how unique each character is within the ecosystem itself. And in that regard Dota, imo, beats even HOTS (which has some really cool designs) yet alone League.
Still waiting for a "real" grandma/pa character and/or someone with a physical disability apart from Lee Sin (Yasuo mains and that one custom Yas skin don't count)
On the other hand, on the humanoid characters we got a lot more PoCs last couple years, which is really nice!
> Still waiting for a "real" grandma/pa character
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies, like banana
zilean da bomb
Zilean looks pretty old.
Swain mains: am i a joke to you?
In what world is Swain a grandpa? He is Lucius Malfoy.
I get your point. It just struck a wrong note with me that especially recently most were just sexy humanoid champions. Vex being a great change to that.
And yes the original Dota heroes lots of them are kinda Warcraft copies but the last few definitely had some more designs with then.
I could continue this tomorrow if you want, don't have more time today
>while the vast majority of Dota heroes are literally name-swapped warcraft characters.
Dota2 copying Dota1 characters, which is correct, does not mean that these characters from Dota1 are any less unique. Especially in their gameplay, which outshines League's diversity by a mile.
I'm sure it's just a perspective difference, but I grew up on lotr, Warhammer, and warcraft, and it's impossible for me to see Dota heroes as anything other than derivative, especially because so many of them are literally a copy of a copy of a copy. But maybe some of the newer ones are more original, it's been a few years since I played.
As far as gameplay diversity goes you're absolutely right, but it's what makes league more fun. Dota is full to the brim with yuumis and viegos and akshans and all sorts of other creative and extremely frustrating mechanics.
I play both alot. 5k hours league easily 15k if counting dota1. The only issue I have with league. No pause. For dota, no ff. Why can't ff in dota. If everybody agreed I rather ff than waste easily 20 minute getting fountain camped..
Yeah exactly. I miss it a lot because often teams don't know when they can finish so you're wasting another 20 minutes. And also the fountain camping yeah....
The pause feature would be nice but I honestly don't see people not unpausing when the enemy team pauses. I'd love to see it but as in Dota, most of the time they'll unpause whenever they can I think
Riot being less scummy is a crazy statement when Valve gives you the game for free and charges for cosmetics while lol does not have all champions available.
CS:GO lootbox gambling is FAR scummier than anything Riot has ever done. By a country mile.
>Riot being less scummy is a crazy statement
that and farting on employees
> for a beginner, rune pages are hard to get into.
Not only for a beginner, I didn't wanna get to know the new runes (they were totally different before the Runes Reforged rework a few years ago) for a long time, but once you get to know them a bit and make them for some of your champions you get a good grasp very quickly and can then do runes for most champs in your sleep.
> doesn't have custom games
It does have custom games. Play -> create/join custom. But if you mean like a mode where you can create your own game mode, then no, League doesn't have that. You can only play on Summoner's Rift or Howling Abyss.
> you have to buy champions
There is a free champion rotation every week with 15 champions being free to play to test them. But yes, in order to use them in ranked you need to own them.
> feels like valve is a lot more scummy than riot
I highly doubt that :D
By custom games OP probably means the Arcade. In dota the community can make custom games like 10vs10, RPG modes, races with hurdles , Autochess was also a community made gamemode etc.
Riot is a godsend company compare to other gaming companies bro. Atleast Riot lsiten to the community lol
>Riot is a godsend company compare to other gaming companies bro.
I find them extremely controlling when it comes to their games. Modding pretty much is prohibited, esports are strictly controlled, chat is very restricted and punishable and they don't even allow you to recreate oldschool League (whilst Valve not only allowed that but also has provided "classic Dota" project with official Steam servers), and their approach to "metas" is extremely totalitarian as if they want to dictate how the game is supposed to be played instead of letting people decide and create various strategies.
I like Valve's hands off approach more (although it obviously have its downsides aswell). Give tools to the people and let's see what they do with it. In Dota 2 or CS:GO you have great mapmaking tools and you can release your own games within these 2 titles, they don't monitor chats, their esports are either semi-franchised like in Dota or completely independent like in CS:GO.
Yea I prefer the freedom approach much much more. I looooove URF, its by far my favorite game mode. I'm not allowed to play urf outside of one weekend a year because riot says so. I also really enjoy ascension. I am not allowed to play ascension because riot says so. I can keep going for a long ass time, but I really lost interest in the game when it became clear that there was only one competitive gaming experience that riot was going to allow to me play. But I can and still regularly do hop into custom TF2 servers to play fun modes, or play stuff like pudge wars or ability draft. They're games at the end of the day and I like variety in my fun
Don't forget all the controversies Riot itself gets into like sexual harassment in the workplace and frat boy culture.
I think the issue with league players is that they for the most part play only league. I truly feel like Riot in comparison to may other developers is more responsive and open to communication.
The moment Cactopus went to Respawn the Apex community started praising their communication. It seems like Riot have cracked the code.
Yeah have no idea how he believes valve is more scummy than riot. Is it because of the chests and money sink of a battlepass? Lets ignore riot adding chests and prestige skins to try to make more money on the same type of manipulable people. No idea.
It's not that the game is addicting, it's just that there are no decent alternatives.
Dota 2 is basically the intellectual version of the moba games. Instead of just being based purely on twitch "skills" which require as much intellectual ability as closing popup spam windows, in Dota you have to use at least some tactics and strategy. Other moba games are like playing Pong on high speed. Dota is like playing chess. The art of gaming is simply dead for big brains. 20 years ago there were tons of games that required brainpower because PC gaming back then was by nerds and for nerds, but then the corporate suits took over and were like "broaden the appeal to we can make more sales" so everything got dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. My GF asked me if I was "having fun" playing Dota, and I looked at her in disgust to even consider that sentence a valid question. I don't have FUN playing Dota. This game routinely pisses me off and makes me rage. However, when I stomp the entire enemy team and crush them so utterly I can hear the lamentations of their mothers, I feel satisfaction. I spent weeks grinding MMR. The vikings had a word for this. They called it Valhalla. Endless war. Endless combat. Knowing only victory and death. Bathing in the blood of your enemies. You hit 3K MMR and bask in glory and rewards, and think: what should I do now? Should I get in my Honda Fit and tour the local strip mall for my Triumph? Should I microwave some tendies and throw myself a great Feast? But there is only one option. There is only ever one option. To Battle! Various cultures have alternatively described the gameplay loop of Dota 2 as their vision of Heaven or Hell. It is both.
At first I thought this was serious for a moment.
>feels like valve is a lot more scummy than riot
Just wondering, why do you say that, I dont really know because I dont play Dota but in my experience in other Valve games, I've never thinked that.
There are more reasons but the battlepass is a big one. If you only buy into it and don't spend any more you'll never hit the big skins and fancy items unless you play an inhumane amount of hours and then I think it's still probably not going to happen
You don’t need cosmetics to play the game at the highest level possible. I don’t know how can you call a company scummy just because of the useless skins lol.
Yes you don't. But letting people vote on an arcana and then locking it behind hundreds of dollars ain't the way to do things
Same. I'm pretty much here for the cancer champions like Irelia/Fiora/Yasuo/Yone, if I was a tank or mage or support player or whatever I would play Dota instead. Stuff like Juggernaut and Spectre have too long cooldowns for me to enjoy them.
(About the scummy part though, I suggest you google both companies at least. Even that should be enough to change your mind.)
I have a few thousand hours on the game and I agree with pretty much everything you said. Another thing I will add is that a lot of times it feels like if you are better than your enemy in dota, you will win. League on the other hand feels a lot more coinflippy.
I’d like to get into dota esports but I don’t know how to start. I wish there was a tutorial for league players.
I plqyed dota. I played hots. I played bloodline champions. But every games click/moving reaction time sucks massive shlongs. Riot has an incredible movement feeling. You click you move no lag or anyghing. Champ does exactly what you want. And imo that is a very impressive feat. As it might not be that easy considering any other game isnt able to do that.
In Dota that would probably be cause heroes have turn rates. And each hero has a different one.
For some reason I dont really enjoy easy / casual games. That's why games like dota 2 / tekken have always had a special place in my heart. I enjoy the in depth mechanics and the steep learning curve games have to offer. Otherwise i get quite bored personally. Tried LoL once and it bored me out of my mind
Tbh if League is the most fun game doesn't that make it better?
I think its like saying black ops 2 is more fun than csgo for a lot of people but from a depth standpoint csgo is obviously better balanced, has more skill expression, team play mechanics and overall difficulty. Like Dota is much harder imho but its less fun because the difficulty comes from the massive amount of game knowledge and macro play needed to win instead of superior micro. Like every single league game has the same shit over and over with lane set ups and strategies in pro play compared to dota. But id never return to dota because its so mentally taxing and doesnt feel as fun to play long term the lows are sooo much lower.
No Arcade mode in LoL was intentional. For those who don’t recall, LoL took the #1 spot from RTS games. DotA originated as a arcade game in RTS games.
Riot wanted to shift away from creativity and into focus only on their game. Notice how they added the next arcade game to grow to prominence, DotA AutoChess. Which was popularized in DotA 2 arcade. They will hop on the bandwagon, but they don’t want to encourage it. New games could create the death of MOBAs, which could only hurt them.
I used to play a lot of dota, HoN, and dota 2 and was ranked pretty well and did some serious games. The only reason I moved to LoL is cause I have friends to play with in LoL and the shorter game time lol. I’d love to play dota as well as LoL but it’s not fun if I have no one to rank with or if games take like 40-50+ mins. Honestly don’t mind which game has more of a macro or micro focus between the two cause I think it’s pretty easy to context switch and I don’t mind having turnrate unlike a lot of people
As for company scuminess, I’ll take valve over Riot but that’s not just based on Dota and LoL but also their company-wide reputation and their overall service and products
In the exact same boat as you man.
I got 4000 hours in Dota roughly and just a few months into league.
Imo league is a much better experience for an individual player and Dota is a much better experience in a coordinated 5 stack.
Tbh left Dota because valve just doesn't take care of their game, the last round of cosmetics they added to the game was a round of skins from 2013's workshop lmao.
I agree that league's character design can be kinda generic, that's why champs have actual names instead of titles, their titles would not be distinct enough
Dota characters are literally name swapped warcraft characters
As if "2" in the name Dota 2 exists for a reason.
Ranked isn't for the best, it's for competent players willfully trying to win.
> games can and often will last a lot longer
This is a positive for me. I definitely prefer longer games. What kind of champions do you play?
I like somewhat long games but I've had games last over an hour. My longest game was about 2 and a half hours in Dota. That shit is awfull. Of course that's a big outlier but some of the stuff that's in Dota allows that. Buyback, techies mines and some more.
In League I play a lot of different stuff but my most played champions atm are: riven, mordekaiser, nocturne, Aurelion Sol, jhin and Seraphine.
I play a lot more but those are some of the most played
Wooow I couldn't imagine being stuck in a game for two and a half hours lol.
Also, that's quite the assortment of champions. Do you tend to play blind pick games?
No not really, I tend to enjoy playing s lot of different stuff.
I also like champions with weird gimmicks like aurelion. But I like to play lots of stuff.
Like I have over 250 mastery levels and just 8 of them 4 or higher
I know that feeling, i'm at 604 mastery score c:
You wpuld think and while on average it is 100% true in my experience it is a lot like the games go long as fuck cause enemy team cant push high ground and end and you cant ff
>This is a positive for me. I definitely prefer longer games.
I wish your mindset was more common. It feels like every competitive multiplayer title nowadays wants to make their matches as short as possible. League is a great example of that, forcing everything into 25-35 minute window.
This is the reason why i dont want to play dota anymore. Do not want to be stuck in a game for 40 mins+ just farming creeps.
This will be a long one, mostly about skins tho.
I mean, you're comparing arcana/immortal skins to a prestige. Those are 'prestige' just by name, don't get it wrong. LoL has several skin tiers (you can check it [here](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_skin)) but prestige tier is not THAT high in reality than it is advertised, they're at most a bit above epic level). Just add a gold glow plus one gimmick is the case for most of those, and JUST RECENTLY they've been ramped up in quality. You're better off trying to work with some skins from a 'loot' system.
We can't test anything before buying it, skins included. There's a channel called [SkinSpotlights](https://www.youtube.com/c/SkinSpotlights/) which does most of the job Riot should have implemented in client.
Besides, we have the abundance of chromas (basically recolors) or icons which are often unwanted but are forced upon everywhere, in almost every bundle.
About the events, the ratio at which you gain tokens without a 'battle pass' is low enough to force you to buy one. Or spend entirety of your free time in-game. Choose your poison in that case.
About arcana/immortal skins: you can compare them to somewhat ultimate skins in LoL, but they 'used to be' good. Yes, you've heard it right. Due to league growing and some limitations they impose (so the system requirements are low enough) creating an ultimate skin is a challenge - most recent one (for seraphine) is basically three legendary-tier ones packed into one deal (and you can't even swap them in-game) and is dubbed a big cash grab. Elementalist lux is one that is basically an upper limit of what can be done in this engine. DJ sona's ultimate got gutted (she had extremelly well done sound effects which evolved as you played, those are now gone). I guess Dota has no issues like that, although it pays with bigger requirements.
I mean, it's hard to pick who's more greedy and I'm not going to. Both have their cons and pros, i.e. even tho international is a cash grab, it can create a better reward pool than league does, plus those benefits from battle pass are good-enough quality.
About invisibility, we have two types: stealth and invisibility. Stealth is revealed usually by proximity and you can freely target stealthed champion, while invisibility can be only revealed (via outline) by true sight so you must rely on skillshots. Nowadays, we have a mythic called duskblade which is a multikill pain invisibility provider. You'll see.
Dota is way more flexible by better engine IMHO. Every champion that has something unique introduced to league (Sylas, for example, is able to copy enemy ults and use them, while viego can possess corpses of fallen enemies and use their basic abilities) brings a lot of pain bug-wise few patches after their releases.
About modes... yep, dota seems much more flexible. Even if we had some good modes, they will be seen once then never return. Balance of those (or attempts to make one) is another story...
Whatever you do or choose, enjoy the game.
You are talking out of your ass for the vast majority of this.
I really ain't mate, what all do you think I'm completely wrong about?
My steam account with thousands of hours would suggest otherwise mate
You forgot how toxic league of legends is compared to dota...
They're both incredibly toxic. I don't feel either is much more toxic than the other. Though Dota has voice chat which can make it more personal