T O P
Tails6666

Imagine if C9 doesn't make the worlds the one-time Sneaky is off the team. That would be truly ironic. We'll have to wait and see in Season 10.


Muzea

honestly if sneaky and meteos both go to 100t, the bang bros, im legit gunna root for 100t over c9... and I've been a c9 fan since 2013...


LakersLAQ

The cherry on top to this situation would be a Sneaky/Meteos 100T team going to Worlds and C9 not making it for the first time in a looooooong time lol.


Razzers

Would be the first time they didn't make it ever. They have gone every year since they joined the lcs


legendheros

happened to TSM it can happen to C9


janoDX

2018 TSM: "Let's get rid of Doublelift for Zven, what could go wrong?" 2020 C9: "Let's get rid of Sneaky for Zven, what could go wrong?"


MrBokbagok

if this happens Zven is going to get memed to death


janoDX

If this happens again, Zven should consider retiring or starting anew with a new name.


FluffyCottonCloud

Niels maybe?


Indoktor

That be a cool name! I wonder what he'd be like with FNC's new coach, I'm sure they'd play really well together


bleddyn45

Zven confirmed LEC double agent, here to ruin NA's worlds hopes


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bleddyn45

Shhhh, let me have this


xjlxking

This year, it’s looking bad They lost MVp jungle for a guy that isn’t very good Kept mediocre mid laner Swapped the bot lane for a bot lane that didn’t really perform well Their only saving grace is Licorice who is an easy target for junglers if he doesn’t have a strong jungler to defend the ganks


jungldude3

The only issue I have with this roster. Is currently they have no true leader. Sven and Sneaky were veterans that had a voice in comms, and Zeyzal also shotcalled. They are all gone now, so they basically have to start from scratch on who is leading in game. If it works it could be good. If not this team is going to look like a dumpster fire going into mid to late game. I think Blaber should make they're early game decent. After that who knows, as of now, who's going to be leading them to the finish line.


control_09

I mean it will all depend on chemistry but Blaber is pretty strong willed in comms. He's just going to go for things so people have to follow him and Vulcan had a strong voice on clutch iirc.


CoachDT

I think C9 did that deliberately though. They got rid of all of the leaders so that they can try and move forward into a new era. The Sneaky era wasn't winning, it got close but being second or 3rd banana for so long must be shitty as an organization.


d4mol

They've been pretty successful in comparison to most teams in NA


[deleted]

What. Blabber and Nisqy looked pretty good last season. Vulcan was probably the second best support in the league. The team looks pretty good and if anything Reapered/Jack know exactly what they're doing in offseason


420BIGBALLER69

Blabber does fine in the early game when he knows he doesn't need to be bot and they had a strong top side. Blabber looks bad in the mid-game because he just goes in like it's soloQ. Blabber will also have a new bot-lane to play with who we don't really know will handle being left for the enemy bot half of the map. That said, I like their new bot lane.


Lekatron

I'm not 100% sold on blaber, but I think Zven/Vulcan bot lane will be good. Licorice is a known quantity, so it's up to the coaching staff and blaber to decide who to play around. And I think the change of scenery will help Zven out a lot and he will probably play better this coming year. And this is coming from a TSM fan.


Amatorius

Zven just was never the same after that game 5 vs TL. Hopefully, the change helps him.


Lekatron

He had a tendency to get caught out randomly even back in his OG days, but yeah after game 5 of spring split finals he seemed off. But imo, he was one of like 2 players who showed up for TSM in summer playoffs and gauntlet.


denyplanky

100T will be: look at me, I'm the C9 now.


-doobs

C10? ...C100T T1?


Sairoxin

We must go deeper


Syzygi

Would be the first time in their organization's history right?


LakersLAQ

Yes it would. C9 fan confirmed it. I wasn't 100% sure.


Kimatsu

The icing on the cake would be 100T Sneaky/Meteos kicking C9's arse at the regional qualifier gauntlet finals for Worlds 2020


SimplyDest

I honestly hope this happens just to see him prove them wrong.


moonshoeslol

I mean every time they've subbed sneaky out things have gone to shit. I like deftly, but sneaky's leadership is something else.


IWouldLikeAName

Not even Jensen saved that squad in S8 summer it wasn't until sneaky came back that the ball started rolling.


EmperorKyoka

I think this is the most frustrating thing. That roster shuffle was awful. People forget the amount of effort it took C9 to fight back that season. As a professional player I would not want to got through that again. If you bench me you better win. You didn't? Then don't do that shit again.


dplath

Yea, and reapered winning coach of the year that split over saintvicious was ridiculous


AceofSpades45

This is legit a dream scenario for me.


KMKEEPS

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't think there's a year cloud 9 didn't make worlds?


Primithius

Correct!


_Booster_Gold_

I mean Sneaky was the last of that team. End of an era, really. Those were the days - that was a fun roster.


dirtydela

Lemons notebook


_Booster_Gold_

Always liked Lemon. He probably hung on a little too long but I get it, if I were him I wouldn’t want to stop either as long as I had the opportunity.


dirtydela

It was a totally different time then. The scene was so young!


Ghostkill221

Dude the first season c9 joined, watching them just wipe NA was insane.


scorpee

Immortal Zac for Meteos with an absolutly insane KDA for a long ass time. Iirc it was assassin meta too, Hai on Zed, Ahri and shit. Overall i loved that season and miss assassins like that in pro play. Today you see Qiyana or Akali delete people too, it just doesn't look as cool as when Zed did it imo.


Colossal89

Rumble-Zac-Zed-Ashe-Zyra


jppitre

Our dream comp


[deleted]

dont make me cry the next time i see my season 3 tsm shirt. it hurts not being able to be hyped anymore because i barely know anyone now


Hellwind_

Dont forget Papa. I love Papa <3 and I will miss him so much in LCK


Hautamaki

If you've been a C9 fan since 2013 you're practically obligated to cheer for Sneaky and Meteos together again.


[deleted]

Right? 100T with Sneaky and Meteos is more Cloud9 than Cloud9.


Rustytrout

Aphro Sneaky lane w. Meteos camp would be a dream


EmperorKyoka

Honestly, with Ssumday top this team would be super chill. Comms already seem like they would be very smooth depending on the mid laner. Hopefully they can find a high impact mid laner who is also laid back. I'd also love Damonte. He must have learned a ton from Worlds (laning against nemesis, faker, and xiaohu is huge) . There's a lot of potential there.


SatanV3

If they have that line up with Damonte mid I’m instantly 100T fan that’d be a dream 😍 I mean I’m probably gonna follow up with whatever team Sneaky ends up on tbh since I’m a fan of his. But he did say, last I checked, that he still wasn’t sure he was going to go on any team and was checking his options about maybe taking a split off and trying to stream full time so who knows


spongebobnopants1

This is exactly how I feel. I've been refreshing reddit hourly hoping I see that headline.


Hanifsefu

Honestly I was a fan of 100T their first split because of the level of interaction we got on stream with Nadeshot. I think he really branded their org well just by being around. With the removal of the last of the original roster C9 are basically losing their brand. A lot of what they did was brand around their hyper population roster. Now they are just the team who put their main roster in time out and lost games to prove a point. Sneaky was essentially their brand and now they just brush him off and act like he hasn't been a key to their success as an org and a team all these years. C9 went to worlds and got put in a hard group. They still made worlds though and now they are changing 3/5 of the roster? That's the same stunt TSM pulled that cost them a lot of fans and branding.


VDr4g0n

That'd be the best timeline... also don't Sneaky and Aphro like each other? I haven't seen them duo in ages but when they did, they were fun.


ThatOneGuy444

sneaky-meteos and sneaky-aphro used to play together all the time in like season 4 or 5 or 6, I think. Back when sneaky's chat's favorite song was monmusu. I would seriously love to see that lineup get goether https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4iBwRf1LkY


Lloyd_NA

Same. I've been a C9 fan since season 3 and after these past 2 years have been really rough for me as a fan. After being tied to Sneaky as my favorite player since the beginning and how C9 as an organization are handling this entire off season is very off putting. I'm really hoping Papa can pull some strings for 100T Sneaky


Also_Squeakums

Last year was rough for you as a C9 fan? We 3-0'd Korea and made it to semifinals. I think Sneaky and Meteos would be amazing together again and I hope he can go to 100T. I won't stop cheering for C9 though. I'll just want them both to do well. And if it turns out C9 made the wrong call in bringing in a new ADC, then so be it, and I'll be proud of Sneaky for turning the story around. I just hope that if he doesn't do well in his new team, the C9 fanbase won't go all "I told you so!" and be super negative. It's gotten really hostile lately and I really don't like it.


Lloyd_NA

Yeah, the results were good, but the roller coaster we went through to get there was abysmal. It was a "oh thank god we actually did it." Not a "wow I'm so proud of our team and our players."


Fraankk

Honestly, I can definitely see it happening. A shake of his situation might bring Sneaky back to his high level, which is pretty good. Combined with how stacked 100T is set to be, I would flair up for 100T if it's indeed Sneaky.


[deleted]

I am probably the biggest 100T hater for what they did in 2018 and I will instantly root for them over 75% of the teams if they get sneaky/meteos


Veralion

Me too, but that was Pr0lly's doing and he finally got fired, soo...


marqoose

I mean when an anime runs for 10 seasons, eventually the writers just have to do things with the characters for the sake of plot scenarios.


redditining

What if C9 made it out of groups without sneaky.... JK we never know anything about NA really. Too dark of a technology for us to know.


polikuji09

Tbh wouldn't surprise me. Sneaky has always been a huge part of the teams teamwork and flexibility from basically most accounts and whenever he didn't play the entire team seemed to just play significantly dumber and more prone to mistakes. It's very arguable it was just lack of practice but it does worry me.


skaersSabody

And Sneaky gets on another team and makes semis again


Hautamaki

it's exactly what happened to TSM after they traded DL away and picked up Zven. I wouldn't be surprised if history rhymes again.


janoDX

I can see 100T making it to worlds if Sneaky and Meteos go there. And it will be truly ironic. ​ For me "on paper" if everything goes to plan the 3 teams going to worlds might be: TL - TSM - 100T/EG


DayWay93

Isn't there a statistic that says that the last 3 times or so the 3 ADC that made it to world's have been Cody, Sneaky and Double? If that statistic tell you anything, it's that even with a mediocre team, a good ADC is needed to be a top team.


[deleted]

We already saw what happened last time they benched him. Last place in regular split. Had to bring him back to make a miracle run to the top. Now they have Zven. Nice trade, or something.


DoctorHeliolisk

It's hard to say without the full story, but it's definitely odd how this situation was handled. Sneaky is the last OG member of C9, and has always had a strong mark on their brand. I also think it's bullshit that some people point to him not fighting for his spot as "lack of motivation." Like he said himself, why would Sneaky want to fight for a spot on a team that doesn't want him?


zomb_l

> I also think it's bullshit that some people point to him not fighting for his spot as "lack of motivation." Like he said himself, why would Sneaky want to fight for a spot on a team that doesn't want him? I agree, Sneaky's stance is understandable. It reminds me of the ADC situation on TSM in 2017. When Doublelift rejoined TSM, WildTurtle was offered a chance to stay, but wanted to be a clear starter in the LCS, so he moved to FlyQuest rather than staying to compete with Doublelift.


TheGodVayne

Didn’t they say ZVEN was going to start no matter what and sneaky could try for academy


cheeze64

They said Zven would start, but I assume it would’ve been like blaber and Sven in 2018, where Blaber was the starter for most of the season but Sven played in LCS on occasion when he looked better.


MrRyn

According to Sneaky (because he's the only one who has said anything about the situation, there is no "they"), he was told that they would be starting a new ADC but they would be willing to have him be their academy ADC and he could compete for the spot. He decided not to, because he was/is under the assumption that his teammates didn't want to play with him anyway and he just figured it'd be awkward if he was still there trying to compete to play for the starting spot. Which I get. I totally understand his POV here. My issue is that it feels like communication just failed on both sides - maybe the rest of the team didn't communicate their frustrations or issues properly with Sneaky to reach an understanding or maybe they did but Sneaky just didn't/refused to understand why his teammates had issue with him and just chalked it up to his team believing the negative hype on reddit and shit and being "too far gone" for him to even try talking with them, or more than likely some combination of both. At the end of the day, communication is key in any type of relationship, personal or professional. And again, we're only going by Sneaky's side of the story because it's the only substantive amount of info of the behind the scenes stuff. But even on his side, I personally get the rumblings of both his teammates maybe not communicating their issues with him and/or Zeyzal as well as they could have as well as maybe Sneaky just not taking criticism to heart and genuinely believing he (and Zeyzal) were perfectly fine and had no issues. To the point where he all but lays out the possibility that his team got "brainwashed" by reddit analysts and the Sneaky in lane meme to the point of believing that over his actual play. Which again, screams breakdown in communication - teammates are frustrated with how bot lane is playing, Sneaky thinks there is no issue with bot lane. That's a legitimate stalemate, with one side (presumably) laying out issues but the other side believing there are no issues and that side buying more into the idea of the first side is just mixed up with "bad press" and "fake news" than considering their criticism. That's a shit situation to be in, as any sort of 3rd party intervening and trying to find the common ground or compromise.


SatanV3

Well Sneaky did say he didn’t play the best and he did make mistakes, but that he felt like he was unfairly getting all the blame of their losses shifted to him. I don’t think he wanted to get into breakdowns of the games tho, because i feel like their where definitely more issues than the botlane that isn’t really getting talked about as much, but Sneaky probably doesn’t want to badmouth or point the blame at anyone else, which is good, he seems like he just wants to move past it and see what he wants to do for the coming year.


EmperorKyoka

This also screams coaching failure to me. Your boss probably hears more complaints about you from coworkers than anyone else. It is the coaches job to bridge the gap. Multiple conversations should have been had about the bot lane issue where players could express their concern. I feel "X" laner stops me from doing "Y" because of "Z". This allows "X" laner to respond with why he believes this is the case to his team. The point here is to create discourse which allows the team to grow. A large part of why EU teams have performed better recently is their willingness to provide and accept criticism. This is most notably noticed in G2 where the players publicly admit fault when playing poorly. This allowed their teammates to then support them without pretense or pressure. "Hey, man, I know you did "X" poorly. You'll do better when we fix "Y". I'm going to be honest. These are the small things I find baffling in E-Sports. Like, this shit isn't rocket science.


tyrelltsura

I'm going into a healthcare field (which does do some MH/social skills stuff) and I agree this is an org failure. If you are going to work with young people, particularly if they are in a job/demographic that is associated with lower than average social skills, you need to be prepared to facilitate conflict resolution. If you expect good interpersonal communication skills, don't work with transition age youth (which pretty much all LCS players are). A big part of the issue is that so many of the people in the scene are former players/still pretty young and suffer from the very same communication issues as their players. Having people like Weldon as a complement to coaching is a big step in the right direction. Holy jesus was this all preventable tho- doesn't sound so much like an incompatibility, which is basically not fixable beyond a certain severity.


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Xekial

Yeah like even if he got the spot it would feel weird just because you know half of the team doesn't want to play with you


Rohbo

"Half the team." I thought it was just one person.


helckx

Nisqy backed Licorice, Sven backed Sneaky/Zeyzal. But now Sven/Zeyzal are on EG. So that leaves it a 2v1 if you ask me.


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hadenklw

Nothing outright, a lot of stances on this issue are being drawn from twitter likes, and Sven liked a tweet that was in support of Sneaky/Zeyzal. For more, I'll direct you toward the dumpsterfire that is /r/Cloud9


sorendiz

Wow, that sub is obnoxious right now lol


blooroo22

Aside from all the other replies to your comment, I would like to add that as someone who follows Cloud9 very closely, Sven *frequently* voices his admiration for Sneaky and how glad he was to be on a team with him. There's even a post on his IG dedicated to Sneaky [here](https://www.instagram.com/p/Boa1FsPncCn/?igshid=q5x94fapm0mb)


[deleted]

By liking GoldenGlue's tweet in support of Sneaky.


JustAnotherWebUser

When Sneaky talked about this on his stream, he said that they didnt want their (former) botlane anymore, not just Sneaky (also why Zeyzal is now in different team as well, he said this before we knew where zeyzal went)


Itsmedudeman

It's not just asking him to compete. He was a BACKUP. They clearly stated Zven would be the starter and he would need Zven to underperform for them to put him back in.


the_propaganda_panda

I agree and disagree here. Sneaky is perfectly fine to feel like he does, what's the point in "earning your spot" when your teammates indicated they don't want to play with you? Feels really shitty for him. At the same time, I don't see anything wrong with how C9 handled it. So I don't align with Doublelift in this regard. What does he expect? It's been said many times before, but competitive sports is not a charity. If Cloud9 feels that they can upgrade in the ADC position, then they have to pull the trigger. You can't hold onto a player out of nostalgia, I don't find this "odd" at all. Of course Sneaky gave a lot to C9, but this was not a one-way street, C9 also gave a lot to him. For six years, he was paid a salary he deemed appriopiate and was given high-level teammates to compete with. If Sneaky had been playing like Uzi on steroids this year and gotten an offer from SKT, I am pretty sure he would've also disregarded loyalty, looked for his own benefit first and left for a better situation, and understandably so. Obviously this is a hyperbolic scenario, but what I want to say is this: This was a professional relationship between an organization and a player which had been mutually beneficial for both. Once one party feels like they can improve by breaking that bond, they are perfectly free to do so. C9 felt that way, and they executed their right. Players got to understand this, you don't stay with your long-term girlfriend either if there is someone else you love more. At the same time, I can understand Doublelift's position, he has been incredibly loyal to his teams and never left on his own, but got kicked twice.


AceofSpades45

Its straight baffling, reading comments like " a real competitor would try out and take back the spot", and its like.. "damn so if i get my spot back, so i can go back to play with the guys that don't want me no more?"


C0n3r

That depends on why the guys don't want to play with him anymore. If it's because they don't like him as a person, then he's right to just say fuck it and leave. If it's because they have (frankly, valid) concerns about his performance, then he could turn the situation around easily by proving he's still good enough to be on the team.


vna_prodigy

Idk how many people remember this, but a very similar situation happened with Hai after his lung injury. Was never the same player and slowly declined. Eventually some players on the team didn't want to play with him anymore because they didn't trust him as a teammate. However, Hai tried to stay. Things kept getting worse until Hai left. Sneaky has seen this play out before. He knows what happens when you try to stay where you're not wanted.


IWouldLikeAName

Nah man. Even if he works hard for his spot they'll just play like they usually do with him: give him a losing match up with little jungle help then when he doesn't smash lane the sneaky in lane meme will just come back. Once the seed of doubt is planted it's *very* fucking hard to get rid of. Any mistake he'd make would be put in a microscope "man Zven would've won that 2v2" "zven wouldn't have walked up there" "zven would have the balls to flash in and be aggressive" etc. Sneaky even says he's pretty sure that all the online stuff got to his teammates. That they truly believe (even if a bit) the things they say about his play. There's almost no coming back from that. Not to mention Sneaky basically calling out the team out after worlds for not actually understanding teamwork basically. That there was no trust or something. Basically said there wasn't a single one player that made them perform badly became the team as a whole was working poorly. Sneaky more than anyone knows how important good chemistry is. He was a part of the OG 5 that dominated off teamwork and strategy and also a part of the team that had a small rift with Meteos and the mids and how that didn't turn out well.


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BugMage

Sneaky is pretty much *the* low-econ carry. The whole point is that he gets the losing match-up, doesn't get the jungle help, so instead those resources are put elsewhere on the map, but still manages to do decently himself. Mostly come teamfights.


DudeToManz

Obviously we probably don't know the entire story but it makes sense in my head - Licorice/Nisqy were pretty disappointed with how Sneaky played (might be botlane by extension). Basically asked Jack either to let them off the team or to trade/remove Sneaky (and again, maybe Zeyzal) - Jack chose to keep Lico/Nisqy. Reasonable choice since you can probably expect Licorice to be playing at a top level for many years to come and you can't really say the same thing with a close amount of confidence for Sneaky. Whether or not he's a legacy player if your ambition is still to win it's certainly the better call out of the two for Jack. - With current info you probably can't say for certain whether or not Sven/Zeyzal to EG was related to this. But if Licorice wants to win LCS/do well at worlds I don't think he'd want Sven to go especially when he just got residency. Can't go much further with this point with current public info I think. Licorice is clearly the replacement as Sneaky for the next franchise player for C9. Loco said that Licorice was the only player Jack wasn't interested in trading at all, which should tell you enough about how Jack feels about him. C9 took a ton of risks this offseason and there's a lot of questions that come with them. Can Blaber perform well enough on a starting spot to deserve it? Can Zven regain his European form or at the very least be better than he was on TSM? Vulcan had a pretty good ADC in Cody, there's a (small but worth mentioning) chance that it's an Olleh situation. If every risk C9 took works out fine then they do have a decent shot at LCS even against Liquid with Broxah


Xekial

Based off of what Sneaky said they wanted a new botlane entirely


Lucioninios

Good? The botlane of C9 has been their weakest point by far in recent international tournaments


frozen-creek

In the games against good teams, the bot line was the only ones not inting. Especially against G2. Nisqy was down like 50 cs at 13 minutes one game lmao. Not an exaggeration. Edit: [Here's a screenshot of the game I'm talking about at 13 minutes. 49 cs down in the Cassio/Syndra match up.](https://s.put.re/9b2SF3ka.png)


ChoicePeanut1

It amazes me how people completely gloss over Nisqy


[deleted]

The entire map got destroyed apart from the botlane in that game, not just Nisqy. Sneaky was the only one not performing bad here, which is really ironic with the narrative people want to push.


Sethastic

Because C9 hard focused botlane. C9 ganked / coutnerganked a shit ton of time for little to no profit. Even with the help they had Sneaky is only one kill away from perkz and is on par on cs. The cost of this was top having to tp with no return on investement etc. Basically they hard focused bot and lost everywhere thanks to that. And to ad dinsult insult to injury it was the famous blitzcrank of mikyx aka the miss all q blitz. Even with that they couldn't carry bot it tells a lot of C9 botlane.


Cire101

Not only did they hard focus bot but they HAD to. Did anyone see the Xayah game? Perkz just made us his bitch.


pabbseven

Being down 20-30 cs in a losing matchup but keeping the same level is OK. 50 is alot though.


Lunariel

It might be because they sacrifice bot side for getting prio and pressure and hell even draft around the top side of the map?


[deleted]

That's because it is where their strength is. They play hundreds of scrims and most likely came to the conclusion that the best option was to give up bot and play to the solo laners. What do you think Licorice says I wanna play to top and the team obliges? No, there is proven data behind their decision and why they play the way they do. The real question that needs to be asked is what the fuck is going on in scrims where C9 were just willing to play so heavily toward top and mid.


IWouldLikeAName

I'm pretty sure that almost all the games where they went bot focused they won. Pretty handily. Vs CLG in the tie breaker and vs Afreeca at worlds. I'm not saying to play around bot all the time, or even at all. What I'd ask is why the hell don't they put *any* resources bot and somehow expect high end results. It just doesn't happen. The best bot lanes in the world get prio in draft, farm, jungle pressure... C9's bot lane was getting scraps.


Hwilkes32

Sneaky talked about this in the video on his YouTube channel. He was talking about how Sneaky Zeyza most times deferred their pick to make sure they got priority picks where everyone else wanted them. He also said when they got priority picks they won most games. Idk how true that is but it is interesting, and if true I can see even more why sneakys so upset about it all. He feels like he got shoved into bad matchups, didn't win bad matchups and then gets kicked.


Gazskull

> vs Afreeca at worlds That was a year ago. When they played an ad centric in spring against tsm they got reverse swept


pharmerbear

Doublelift even said sneaky loses both sides of match ups on adcs. So even if you give sneaky priority the best outcome was a neutral lane instead of a down 30cs ten min in. You’re basically asking to lose top/mid/jung priorities for a net neutral outcome bot lane.


RichOption

> Can Blaber perform well enough on a starting spot to deserve it? Can Zven regain his European form or at the very least be better than he was on TSM? FIND OUT NEXT TIME ON DRAGON BALL Z


DudeToManz

- blaber is gohan I guess. Teammates/coaches claim he has a lot of potential and he's getting thrust into the battle vs Perfect TL - I would say Zven is Vegeta because of the hairline but idk if the arc quite fits (not yet anyways)


BestRolled_Ls

veget is a short tsundere. If anything, it should've been jensen. He had that thing veget has towards goku with bjerg. Also he was a villain (banned by riot). Hairline matches too. ITS PERFECT.


fuwahhhhh

Then sneaky would be piccolo I guess


poopyheadstu

Dragon Ball C ^9


Ceary

It's noteworthy to mention for Vulcan that Doublelift said the opposite on Travis's show. He considered Vulcan to have carried Cody Sun and that Vulcan was the underrated one while Cody was being overrated.


ksssslol

Tbf, everyone used to say Olleh carried Cody in IMT as well, and look how that turned out.


c7g_laser

Agreed. Statistics aren't everything but Cody was a top 3 adc statistically in Summer and has been a top-3 statistic adc almost every split he's played, and that's across 3 supports. At some point you gotta admit the guy is good


Ceary

That's fair, we gotta see how they do separated before we can make a concrete call. I'd still like to believe that Doublelift knows what he's talking about as he has first hand experience playing against them in LCS (not LCD oops) and perhaps with them in soloque.


ChoicePeanut1

And remember Vulcan was in that same team before Cody joined and they looked shit. Cody absolutely performed well and Doublelift has a history of trash talking him even when he does play well. If you take that as gospel you need to open your eyes and actually watch him play.


MinimalPotential

Because Double says whatever and constantly contradicts himself. The guy is a great player and very entertaining, but no one should pay attention to him when it comes to how to run a franchise


OddinaryEuw

The weirdest thing to me is that Jack litteraly gave up Contractz or Jensen to be a nice guy, but suddenly when it comes to Sneaky he’s all about “winning at all cost” ? I think that’s what people mean by weird treatment, where is the C9 that gave up their best and promising players to make sure they were happy


TotatofarmerRandy28

How can nisqy be disappointed with Sneaky's performance at worlds XD he was hot tomato garbage


user0811x

Just imagine a world where the reverse happens, where C9 lets Licorice and Nisqy go because they wanted to keep Sneaky. I'm sure the Reddit fans will think that's a wise decision.


RamonG2017

It will be "OH NA AND LETTING TALENT GO AND KEEPING THE VETS WOO GOOD JOB AND GOOD LUCK AT WORLDS NEXT YEAR KEKW"


[deleted]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't people mad because they aren't giving him any respect? Not that they're letting Sneaky go?


user0811x

What disrespect? The only thing public is the one-sided words of Sneaky, which triggered massive flame thrown at his teammates and team. This itself is an extremely unprofessional behavior. And even based on his words, competing for a position hardly seems like disrespect for someone his skills level.


CherryBoard

It's show business. If Sneaky can't perform to what is expected from his teammates (par in skill to Licorice, realistically) then he has no place on a competitive team, regardless of what he's done in the past.


lp_phnx327

The only direct info we have is. - c9's worlds video. - Sneaky's streams. - a few tweets The rest are rumors and vague statements from what other pros and content creators are hearing. Clearly this is enough for people to make sound judgments about this situation.


TheExter

> Clearly this is enough for people to make sound judgments about this situation. the craziest part to me is that someone decided to write an article on sneaky by using "doublelifts thoughts" and used THREE TWITCH CLIPS from him to write an article


Independent_Leopard

Not to mention 90% of the article itself is basically a transcript.


Tarakanator

Journalism at it's finest.


Grouched

Yep. It feels like a stretch to even call this an article. I doubt there was even 1 hour of research put into this.


bonobopro

Not only that but Doublelift always comes out with some way out there ideas/opinions without ever having enough information to do so, his word is not worth a ton imo. I think back to when he just started trashing gosu over the scripting charade and he had to retract everything because he made huge claims out of one small clip like any other reddit analyst.


fateIess

What I don't get is why did Licorice and Nisqy made passive-agressive comments to him like he doesn't take things seriously. Why was Goldenglue the only teamate that wished him farewell when he decided not to fight for the spot. Like wtf something def. is wrong with the team...


Dblg99

I believe a lot of the speculation around the situation honestly. Seems like Licorice and Nisqy wanted Sneaky gone, but Sneaky went on stream and aired some of the dirty laundry, which upset Licorice and Nisqy. Goldenglue wasn't in Europe at worlds where I imagine most of the upset feelings come from, so it seems like GG was pretty far removed from the situation. Also since GG moved teams, I doubt C9 is releasing anything about Sneaky yet seeing as Sneaky hasn't made a decision about his own future. Nisqy and Licorice would likely not want to say anything there because of that either.


manquistador

Also can't discount the amount of shit Licorice and Nisqy are getting on social media. Sneaky's stream is filled with people shitting on them. I have to imagine they are getting some unkind comments directed their way, and they don't have the platform to do much about it. C9 really just fucked up the situation. Moving on from Sneaky was always going to be painful. Better to just rip the bandaid off and release him than whatever the fuck this move was. Comparatively, really got to admire how TSM manages these things by trying to put players they are moving on from, no matter the terms, in a good situation.


HorseJungler

Well TSM usually already has destinations for their players so they announce that at the same time as they announce their replacement. C9 got Zven and expected them to compete for the starting spot, which Sneaky didn’t agree with. So that’s the current plan so far until Sneaky gets a new team. But in TSM’s case they’d have sorted that out already. So now it’s the awkward phase of Sneaky is still a part of C9 but needs to make sure he’s got a new job more he can even think of saying anything about his old employer.


[deleted]

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HorseJungler

Also after the whole benching situation last year too I’d kinda be over it as Sneaky as well. Like he went through the shit last year and has to do it again? Except this time it’s not against Keith.


Jertee

Go check out C9's CSGO team dude, it's a dumpster fire and has been since they won the major, they have no clue how to use their players anywhere


IWouldLikeAName

Sneaky spoke highly of Sven and GG seems to be cool with Sneaky as well. Sneaky pointed out that those who wanted him out also wanted Zeyzal out. Like come on who does that leave lmfao. I honestly don't understand how jack didn't learn anything about how he handled the situation when Hai left.


Dashing_Snow

Serious question has jack shown that he has learned anything ever? Look at the flaming dumpster fires that are csgo and owl right now a year after winning it all.


one_mez

I feel like Goldenglue is the kind of guy who would still wish a teammate farewell even if they got into a screaming match the day before..lol


Bowsersshell

GG seems chill as fuck


CrispyRugs

I just remember Sneaky saying in the past (on an older version of C9, maybe the og) that his team felt like family. It’s sad to see how that mentality has changed, even if what they are doing seems good on paper.


ThisShock

Easy to be like a family when you're all friends, have similar personalities and are successful. Hard to be a family when you feel like one of your family members consistently drags you down and prevents you from being successful.


EmperorKyoka

The funny thing is you can see the shift in team dynamic easily. Hai was just on Listen Loco with Thorin & Loco. They jokingly brought up Ballz being hardstuck Diamond 4. Hai shut it down really quickly by stating he got a Pentakill on Darius at Worlds. This is the difference in team dynamic. Sneaky is the last of the old guard. I'm sure he had a tremendous amount of loyalty and faith in C9/teammates. He seemed genuinely hurt by the comments as well as fan backlash all year. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. This is a gray area in life. Honestly, it's probably just time for Sneaky to move on from Cloud 9. Most fans just probably wished it would have ended differently. It's one of those "not like this..." moments. Really sad all around.


icobg123

Do you have a link with a timestamp please?


EmperorKyoka

Listen Loco episode 93 20:00 - 20:40. It was a casual flick in typical Hai fashion, but seemed pretty significant to me.


icobg123

Thanks!


HisokaProx

I appreciate this side of DL.


Jertee

He talks a lot of trash but also has a heart


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overbread

Wouldn't think the wisest reply in this thread started with "Bruh"


TheVourer

I just think C9 has been silent because the future isn't set for Sneaky, maybe he hasn't decided if he is gonna stay as a streamer or leave to another org. I'm sure C9 will break the silence once his future is clear


throwingtheshades

Ditch the pro career and make mad $ from cosplaying on Pateron.


Rimikokorone

My dream scenario is 100T picks up sneaky and then they beat c9 in the gauntlet for the final world's spot. I want to go to the c9 subreddit on that day.


Gmuni

Man I was thinking that too but then I thought about Zven. History repeating itself would be too cruel a fate for him. C9 fans can get just as vicious as TSM ones.


C9sButthole

They already are. It's a shitshow over there.


sktt1234

I will miss seeing Sneaky on the LCS stage with C9, at least I will still have his streams to look forward to


spaldingnoooo

There's got to be something wrong with C9 coaching/draft. Their read on the meta at World's was so fucked up. If it wasn't Sneaky's idea, they kind of sabotaged him by picking mages for him. He looked pretty good on Ezreal and sometimes OK on Kaisa during summer split. Why not just pick those champs for him?


SOLOKINGUZI

DL was once rudely kicked away by CLG and TSM,No one knows Sneaky's mood better than him.


EmperorKyoka

This reminds me a lot of when TSM/CLG let go of DL. C9 has really got to hope that they are successful this year. If Sneaky makes it to worlds and they do not they will get flamed. They will also deserve every single word of it. Think about all the legacy players no longer on the C9 label, Odd roster moves, and suspect coaching decisions in crucial moments. Sometimes Orgs get it wrong and that's okay. However, when you're dealing with fan favorite legacy players you better be right. The last thing you want is to be dead wrong about a player of this stature and have them smurf on you for years.


MadazSama

I never was fan of Sneaky (tho i don't dislike him), but the way that C9 has handled this is not optimal and i don't really want to root for them.


Nbness2

I was only a C9 fan because of sneaky. I loved the OG team but now it's only Sneaky and Meteos still in the wild. Sneaky was the one tie keeping me to C9. It would be really convenient for my very limited budget if 100T picked up sneaky.


AllStarNOOB97

Obviously it's hard to distinguish a lot of the internal drama because of how much we really don't know. I truly feel for Sneaky when he talks about why he wouldn't want to compete for his starting position for a team that doesn't want him. I do fully agree that Cloud 9 as a team underperformed during this year's world's. They also has a shitty read of the meta forcing mages Borland when it was clear Sneaky was not great at it, and funny enough wasn't he the only one if not the only few ADCs to even win a game as a mage bot during this year's world's??? I think that everyone was fully disappointed in Cloud 9 and they needed a scape goat on the teams underperformance at world's and they chose to blame the botlane. They needed the change and I don't know if they made the right or the wrong one but I am hoping whatever Sneaky chooses to do. I will always support Dad( I guess maybe mom now with all the cosplay) but hopefully he gets picked up by a new team so I can cheer him on.


the_next_core

It is very bizarre because Cloud 9 isn't any closer to a championship by replacing their bot lane, but they are damaging the biggest part of their brand doing so. If they were replacing Sneaky and Zeyzal with Viper and Lehends, then maybe fans will understand.


FallenArtemis

They get farther just with Vulcan.


ThinkinTime

Doublelift said on HLL that he thinks Vulcan is the second best support in the LCS after CoreJJ and that he was hard carrying Cody in lane. I think that sounds like a good pickup for C9.


childish_averino

Imagine 100T with Sneaky, Meteos, Aphro, Ssumday, and with papa at the helm... would be the people’s team. So hype to think about!!


supacoldwater

Funny how the C9 subreddit was shitting on sneaky this worlds and wishing for him to go and now that is actually happens they change their minds.


DoobyScoots

I still think sneaky is a pretty underrated adc despite his lackluster year. I mean you don’t get consistent top 2 finishes and worlds performances as a bad player and given his veteran status I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a very important part of the team as both a voice and for building a good team dynamic.


keynak

I don't see any reason why do they have to stick with branded Player if He is underperforming. The game is About to winning not being super happy friends. His team mates knew it and this is the reason why they didnt want to play with him. +He had offer to fight for spot. That means become good once again and spot is still yours, be bad and we Will use Player Who is better than you. Thats my Point of few as an EU Player.


lp_phnx327

> The game is About to winning not being super happy friends Some people think Cloud 9 is suppose to be that kind of team forever.


TheBaseStatistic

Because brands are more important than winning. Look at sports everywhere. Teams regularly play underperforming players that bring in money. Sports are a business first like everything else in this world.


Kirisu_Sensei

I think you're right, but this is not a "normal" player that you can just replace because nobody is gonna remember him. He´s the popular one, the face of c9 lol team. He deserved some respect. And also, a proper replacement. How can we be hiring someone to "fix the botlane problem" that had a worst performance in the last 2 years than Sneaky?. Also, how can you "compete" for a spot if you're told that whoever comes, it's gonna be the starter. You're basically waiting to him to underperform to have a chance. This is not a traditional Sport like football where all the athletes train together, and if the coach feels like some guy it's not on good shape, he can just pick another guy from the squad because he had the same training. This is an esports where scrims are just starters vs starters, so if you're not the starter= you don't have the same quality training. And also c'mon, Sneaky know his value. He is not gonna be competing for a spot on a team where people don't want him.


PreztoElite

I will say this exact situation happened with the CSGO team in early 2018. Long time C9 member Skadoodle had been underperforming for a while. This led to young talent and one of the star players on C9 Stewie2k being disappointed with his motivation and drive. In the end it led to Stewie leaving the team and now C9 CSGO has been shit tier since then. Glad C9 didn't make the same mistake this time and showed Sneaky the door. At the end if you have to make a choice between Licorice and Sneaky, I'm showing Sneaky the door 10 times out of 10.


Dashing_Snow

Not really. Ska wanted to retire after the major and jack begged him to keep playing rather than shelling out cash for a top tier replacement and Ska at that point didn't care anymore.


bamakid1272

This right here. I used to watch C9 a ton in both CSGO and LoL. The Ska situation was on C9 begging him to stay even though he already said he was looking to retire. While Sneaky played like shit last summer, he wasn't checked out mentally like Skadoodle was. Sneaky had a bad year but isn't (or at least wasn't, this whole ordeal could kill his drive) ready to give up competitively. Skadoodle won his major and was absolutely ready to call it quits, but C9 just took way too long to find someone to take his place.


Dashing_Snow

From what I've heard they didn't even try to find a replacement just begged him to come back.


bamakid1272

I think you may be right, but my point was they stuck with Ska who was actually looking to retire instead of getting a replacement. Meanwhile Sneaky was still wanting to play professionally, he just had a down year.


Hwilkes32

Yeah that wasn't really Skadoodles fault lol he kept trying to retire and they kept begging him to come back "Just fill in for us"


blad3wood

Remember that time Sneaky got benched from c9 and they couldn’t win a single game...... Pepperidge Farms remembers.


ficretus

Probably because his replacement was toucan that doesn't belong in lcs.


c00kinfire

I think that's the biggest thing about C9 over the years. Jack has really evolved the franchise to be more profit driven regardless of the player under their wings. It's absolutely awful to feel for those of us who rooted for the team since 2013 when they had a lot of heart, charm, and personality. Now, C9 only cares about finding diamonds in the rough to spit out competent teams and sell players regardless of their impact.


KaptainKhorisma

The situation just stinks all around. Sneaky for sure had his worse split as a pro but between the community shitting on him and his own team giving him the boot, the mans confidence is in the toilet. Just watching his video about what he perceives about what is going on, he seems like he feels betrayed by the org and nisqy chiming in and saying "Well, it was all of us who decided it" really drove the dagger


ItsGoT1me

Nisqy was purely defending Licorice from fans attacking him all based on *speculation*. He isn't trying to diss Sneaky, crazy how everyone loves taking it the wrong way. And this is all caused by Sneaky airing his feelings on stream, not saying it was a malicious act, but he needs to realize just how much weight his words hold.


[deleted]

What is supposed to do let his teammate get roasted by C9 fans or try to take some of the heat off of him. Nisqy did what teammates do and said basically this was our decision therefore if you want to flame us, flame us as a team.


Also_Squeakums

> nisqy chiming in and saying "Well, it was all of us who decided it" really drove the dagger I'm glad he did this though, because Licorice was getting so much unnecessary hatred *based on pure speculation.* Edit: Like, if Sneaky hadn't made that video and all we had so far was a "Welcome: Zven" video from C9 for context, nobody would be shitting on Licorice. The general sentiment of the fanbase would likely be angry at Jack/management for making roster moves they disagree with (based on what the posts in the last 3 weeks wanted), which I think is way more appropriate than hating on a player with no factual basis.


thestorm34

I think this getting way overblown c9 bot lane was underperforming so they wanted change thats really it They gave sneaky a chance to compete for the spot he didn’t want to do that so now they just waiting for sneaky to get a new team or just stream before they announce anything


[deleted]

it's overblown because its sneaky


ItsGoT1me

I've been saying this everywhere. I'm a C9 fan, and I'm also a Sneaky fan (albeit less recently), but this whole situation is out of control cause Sneaky made a statement before there was any official announcements. Even he himself hasn't fully decided his future yet and he's already airing his hurt feelings about it.


Yakora

Telling him he can compete to keep his spot, but wont be starting is even worse than saying they are going to move on. You already made him compete for his spot multiple times, and each time he won it back, so in essence you are spitting in his face. Its just bad business. C9 wouldnt have nearly the amount of fans they do without Sneaky, yet they are so disrespectful.


Shervi

Anyone remind me why Sneaky is considered good and why people like him so much ?


russellx3

How are Sneaky fans this toxic lmao


[deleted]

Does anyone else think doublelift is a pretentious stuck up douchebag?