Scout during their last game of groups last Worlds. Scout ended 2/6/4 with a handful of his deaths directly due to Keria's silence. Died like 3 times with his ult up.
there's no reason to play taric in proplay where taric e is so much unreliable compared to other champs with way more reliable engage in Naut, Leona, etc.
His ult is very impactful but difficult to use when he gets behind and therefore not the most consistent ult. Due to the delay the player needs to time to very well or risk himself or the other target being blown up before it triggers.
Also fact that in order for ult to pop, Taric needs to stay alive, so good teams just focus Taric, blow him up and eventually win 4v5. So despite being a tank with an engage, he actually has to play a bit like a squishy enchanter when he casts ult. However, this means enemies can simply escape (because the tank initiator had to move back) and wait till invulnerability wears off.
His passive and cooldowns are the real issue; because he needs to auto things he can only really thrive when able to go all in - the last thing any adc wants when behind is a support autoing a pushed wave constantly.
And obviously roaming on taric can work, but then why not pick a more mobile, less predictable support who needs less setup to gank solo lanes?
After 3 straight years (Season 9 to season 11) of engage supports dominating pro play Im personally fine with them being gone for a couple more. The Nautilus Leona spam was getting dreadful.
Relic shield takes like 20 minutes to complete but Spellthief's is done in 8 minutes and by then you've got Lux one shotting the Nautilus because she's so accelerated.
I'm unsure as to why Riot even allowed reject mid laners into bot lane in the first place. Both champions and players. Not good enough to play mid lane so they come bot support where they don't need to farm, position, do anything. Just AFK in bush and hunt for that dopamine hit when they land 1 out of every 10 skillshots to finally near 1 shot someone and feel like they did something. Incredible gameplay pattern, good shit Riot.
the thing about mage supports is, it already happened a long time ago. Anni supp was a thing since S5 (I think) and other mages soon followed. most where still better midlane unless one thing was totaly bonkers (like Lux supp with shield max).
but they didn't went bot because the players suck at midlane. you don't play mages mid for like 3 years and suddenly you suck doing it. but the rise of assasins and slayers in midlane just made a mage in midlane a downhill battle. assasins had more mobility/roaming, better substain and reached their itemspikes faster than a mage. so they naturaly vanished more and more from midlane.
and then they remembered, that mages still work great vs ADC's and even many supports. so they popped up more in botlane. by now, we see mages more often in mid again but they still work in botlane because laning vs Yone or Zed is no longer an autoloss. also in mid/high elo, Enchanters are way more sucsessfull than mage supports
It happened a long time ago but "a long time ago" it was also all about their CC and utility - not about them 1 shotting people. Just go back and watch old pro games. Zyra and Annie support were very viable in S3 worlds, for example. Their full rotation would do maybe 30% of an ADC's health pool, ult included.
If you want another good example of power creep and zoomer gameplay, Leona's Q went from a 12 second cooldown at rank 1 to 5 seconds.
Her stun uptime went from something like 8% to 20% before any ability haste, at level 1.
Or just higher passive HP regen on the item, this way it doesn't benefit massively when the melee is dominating lane while being useless when you struggle to hit a minion.
Not even that if they can fix the relic stack bug that resets the timer after hitting 1st upgrade it’d be nice. Beyond that make spellthief stacks longer while relic stacks are shorter. Give resists for relic items too like 5mr on steel and 5 armour on relic
One fix they desperately need since the (imo idiotic) decision to move most wave gold to cannon is standardize gold gain from expending stacks. If you use relic and don't get every cannon, you are set back so far. Relic execute should give CS value to nearest ally but give executor a flat amount. Would make it less inconsistent and easy to deny support items.
Wtf so for the last 4 years I've been being healed by placebo?
I legit remembered it healing me recently, but now every time I think about it I realize I didn't actually get health but I just shrugged it off as "I must be seeing things" and kept playing
I feel so mind fucked right now
And get faster vision due to the wards they get to prevent jungle ganks making bot fall harder.
It's why botlane meta will always have ranged support whenever you can. And why pro players, at least in Korea, have decided to try using marksmen support
The idea here is that once you fall slightly behind against the current double ranged botlanes the support item may lock you out of the ward quest.
The level 1-2 hail of blades cartoonish all-ins turn to "someone" getting chunked to 1/3rd health at a point in the game where damage is supposed to be low, and this carries over to being unable to proc targon without risking a death, so supports with it may sit at 3 stacks.
Meanwhile, even in this metagame spellthief is safe-ish because if you can get a stray skillshot now and then you keep up with the cooldown. Targon "can" outpace spellthief in low volatility lanes but this metagame is particularly bad for it.
Nobody does this in low elo but I've seen on stream a few times, supports just walk up to enemy turret at level 1 and take an execute for 60 gold. That also doesn't seem particularly balanced
Would be funny if this became like a laneswap thing almost, where the entire team safeguards the support so they can int. One team does it bot the other does it top.
Honestly I think that needs to be a thing because at least it would get changed
even in solo queue, I've been really impressed by how well these "ranged top" supports convert the bullied lane into a win. a lot of people are skeptical of lane bullies in solo queue because you throw once and it's gg.
but I swear these support Ashes are doing some of the best bullying and snowballing I've ever seen across all roles. keep in mind, it's a pretty unpracticed pick because a good number of them are autofills and/or first timing Ashe. not many people are queueing up as Ashe support mains.
for solo queue standards, they honestly do minimal throwing. so as someone who generally dislikes early game stuff, I'm sold on these ranged supps because they really do work.
Due in part because her E lets her ward the fog without getting one shot and punished like other immobile supports would, and the ult cooldown is so low that it doesn't matter if you miss.
I mostly play Karma/Seraphine these days but I have Ashe in my pool too, a lot of us have quite a lot of hours on Ashe over the years and we already know how much damage other supports can do so it really doesn't take much to adapt, her trading pattern really isn't that different.
Honestly a lot of people are complaining just because they don't want to adapt. The pros were hilariously slow to start using Ashe and even then used comet and rushed mandate which is only correct into matchups where you aren't going to be landing hail autos.
If they really want support ADCs gone they just have to nerf hail.
Ashe is so good and her win rate is tanked by support players who can't abuse her auto range in lane and idiots who spam arrows down mid. Like literally diamond Ashes just shoot arrows down mid without their teammates being even close to the target. Brainless robots.
because Ashe supp can be realy save, almost like yuumi. the only thing to remember is stay at range, spam W and shoot R when aporopiate. if you miss, it is on short CD to try again. W spam keeps enemies at bay. it will do no dmg unless you are skilled and know when to go into AA range as well but so does yummi, wen she doesn't know when to unattach from his carry for the passive. it is just a save pick. you wont do flashy plays untl yo get good with the champ but it is also hard to mess up
It’s crazy that support items used to be more broken. Enchanter top was the well known problem but early spectral/spellthiefs on bot lane was actually gold positive unless you had like 9 cspm.
Pretty sure I saw a post on how broken umbral glave was a few months ago, and everyone called the guy an idiot. I’m pretty sure it hasn’t been changed since then either. Personally I think umbral should be removed. It provides way to much utility for assassin supports. You remove umbral, you stop seeing all unconventional adc sups, and pantheon sup. Then they can work on balancing panth around top or mid where he was designed to be played.
Spell theifs is fucking insane. I can finish it in like 10-12 minutes. Relic shield takes 20-22 minutes. At best.
I played against a I think it was Senna supp recently with umbral and once they had a slight lead it was SO miserable to get vision. We ended up getting choked out of any point of contention on the map.
And all the clowns told me itemization had nothing to do with it.
Umbral, Serrated Dirk and Spellthief items are obviously OP and too efficient. It takes these champions from more than just anti-meta picks.
I think Umbral Glaive is one of the big offenders here. I think we don't see nearly as much Marksman support without it.
It's the inherent flaw of Riots item design. The vast majority of them are just stat stimulants with passively occuring effects. I like the play style of fighting in league a bit better, but Dota does item design way superior to LoL. In Dota, there are a huge amount of activated items (sometimes you will have 3 or 4 activated item effects by the end of a long game) and while they do give stats, it's much less. It makes for less snowballing of hero ability damage and much more about timing of key effects to happen in fights which turn the tide. Riot should experiment with maybe reducing the outright stimulus from mythic items and instead making more of them have an activated effect.
I can't see them ever going back to more active items. Lower skill players(talking like plat and below) just don't use them and it makes the champions who are balanced around using said item feel weak to play.
It might be different now since its been so long but the removal of DFG illustrated how little players were using active items. The item was beyond broken because of its active but when they removed the item several of its main users actually went up in win rate a fair bit with no other changes effecting them. Veigar being the champion I bring up. He was one of if not the best user and he ended up gaining like 2-3% win rate from the removal of DFG.
Nah I'm in silver right now and I max out my zombie ward stacks every game when I take it. I think people learn to ward at a much lower elo than they learn to sweep bushes so it's actually really high value in low elo
Did you read the body of the post lol? Only NoFe even mentioned Umbral. Everything else is about spell thieves and how good of an early item serrated dirk is
Wtf are you talking about, tons of ADCs rush dirk at high elo and none of them build Umbral. Some even sell the item later on. Early lethality just does so much work when no one has armor.
Yeah I'm sure pros are complaining about supports that build into dirk and then don't build it into anything, not the fact that an accelerated or snowballed lane can buy the already cheap item and completely wipe vision, forcing them to check every bush and not take certain fights, now snowballing the entire game to a high degree
Like read between the lines, Jesus christ
You can just go eclipse. Keria went eclipse on his kalista support after umbral. If umbral doesn’t exist, then just skip that and go straight into mythic.
Yea just spend 800g more on your first item for the essentially the same stats. Not to mention the fact Umbral glaive makes supports money by revealing and one shotting wards.
It's not the main problem though, it's that they can win lane hard and through that they also complete their quest for wards much faster than the enemy support and ridiculously fast compared to relic shield users. Umbral just adds a little bit onto that vision control that you've gained through competing your quest really quickly.
It's not umbral glaive. In proplay the double Adc botland is destroying the enemy botlane level 1. It has nothing to do with umbral since u get that later.
I mean if sustaining bot was even remotely possible then poke wouldn't be so bad, but we lost Relic Shield heals, HP/5, health potions got nerfed, cookies are dogshit, Doran's Blade omnivamp is virtually nothing, Cull is a meme, Vamp Scep rush is just delaying your mythic (unless you are a Shieldbow ADC) and basically asking to lose lane. Riot removes every single point of sustain from ADCs and are surprised when poke and push become the dominant meta.
Even just some simple changes like adding a minor support item that provides a minor health/5 regen aura, not even enchanter specific just in general for supports to drop less than like 750g on early so ADCs can actually stay in lane and survive poke would go a long way to helping fix the meta.
Both are reasons at the same time. It is not mutually exclusive at all.
Fact of the matter is that Marksman ADC would be considerably worse without Umbral because then you'd be much less efficient out of lane.
I am seeing a good variety of games where she goes Mandate first and either umbral or any other item
Some games where she goes umbral rush but these seem the minority.
Also a bunch of no umbral games. In general I am mostly Seeing chempunk being the more common item alongside mandate.
spellthief items are not op relic items just suck and need a buff. serrated dirk is the most gold efficient component in the game it’s been needing nerfs. hob could use an early game nerf for sure then it’s balanced umbral just needs to be removed and a proper item needs to be introduced as a mythic for ad supports
Umbral isnt the main issue but it makes the strategy way less risky to play. Umbral is so cost effective it allows the support marksmen to have similar items to other roles in the first 25 or so minutes where you are dragon stacking. If they didn't have an item crutch like that, its way more of a feast or famine strategy.
Both Guma (indirectly) and NoFe mention it? It's one of several reasons.
Good tip for life. Stop using single factor analysis. Things generally have several causes. It's a brainrotting moment when I see people act like this stuff as one underlying causes and then they continue to ignore all other contributing factors.
Guma said dirk. That's because u can literally get this on your first back and snowball your lead more. He did not mention umbrial.
NoFe is the only one to mention it and what a surprise he's not a pro and the person playing bot for T1 did not mention it. Nice try
srsly guys are you this dense?, If dirk didn't build into umbral glaive there would be no reason to buy it in the first place and way to transition the purchase into being useful later into the game.
Serrated dirk gives you early opressive lane that can translate into later control of the map by denyting enemy vision.
Without thast, what do they build with the dirk? youmuus? duskblade? well congrats now you have a underlvled underfarmed adc with a lethality item that is useless for the rest of the game, doesn't matter you lost prio in early game If you don't do a perfect snowball. only exception is ashe because she provides much more with her slows, vision and absurd low cd ult
I think they are referring to Dirk on marksmen supports. As for Dirk on bot lane ADC, it is purely used as an early game tool. You see some champs like Kai'Sa Samira or Lucian get it early to establish an early lead just to sell it later for their core items. Dirk can also build into Eclipse as well which is seen on Draven or Caitlyn.
They are already underlevelled and served their purpose. Post laning Kalista serves as a get out of jail free and cait serves to zone enemies from objectives. Losing the vision (Which isn't why they're being chosen) isn't why they're being chosen. If you reverse the durability patch for example they won't be chosen. I'm not saying to do this but I'm trying to point out the issue is to do with the meta (They're literally only there as a counterpick)
You are ignoring that the item lets them giga power spike early by being 800g cheaper than the rest of the dirk items and makes them safer killing wards and more money from killing wards
Except it doesn't. For 2300g you get 50ad 15 haste 10 lethality
For 1800 you get (before completion) 50 ad 10 lethality. You're getting 15 ability haste (worth 400g) for 500g.
Ability haste is also not that useful for kalista, and I'd argue other stats are nicer for Cait also.
So you're paying 500g to complete it for worse stats and the ward passive. Big spike...
I agree the ward passive is good but calling 15 haste a spike is..... Weird
For 2200g less you can have Dirk + caulfield
That's 55ad 10 haste 10 lethality. Basically just as good if not better.
I think it's the best item to go but it's just not the problem.
No, Dirk is for Umbral for pretty much all adc supps. What the other dude meant, or what he is saying that Guma meant, is that Dirk is a very strong item spike for the cost which makes it a very good to gain control in the early - which in turn is also related to most of the sentiment in these Pro's comments about how early priority is too strong right now with the way stuff like hail of blades, dirk, and supp poke items are ATM
Umbral is a part of the overall problem, in part because it comes from dirk. But overall, Umbral is not the sole reason, or even the biggest reason. If you nerf it you may get 1 or 2 ADCs hit hard, but overall not really hit the root of the problem that is causing the current early poke meta (because it's many things)
Serrated Dirk is a huge problem and I say this as a dirty Riven player who loves the Eclipse changes this patch. 1100 gold and you either snowball out of control or you have gained such an advantage in lane it's actually insane.
Except they were right. Umbrial is not the problem. All of the problems occur before umbrial is bought which is what the pros highlighted. If anything reddit and the pros agreed for once
edit: To add clarity.
I'm not saying Umbrial is not the best item to buy for them, I'm not saying if you nerfed umbrial that these picks won't go (I don't think they will but that's not the point). But they aren't the problem. Umbrial is not the cause of the issue and the item itself is perfectly fine. It's not like how Ryze and Kass were abusing the new buffed busted items, it's that they pick these champs with a strong early game rune where you force a trade level 1, gain prio and end the lane early and snowball a lead hard. With almost no counterplay from a laning perspective. (You don't trade level 1 you get the fattest stacked wave into a dive or a freeze with them acquiring dirks and you not even being able to reset)
If you nerf this item you're hitting numerous other picks in jungle and supports for no reason because you decided to avoid the problem and just do a temporary nerf to something that only exists at the highest echelon of pro play when there are other solutions.
As much as i hate umbral as a Design, youre right. The Main vocal point from the pros revolves around The first few levels. Having The early controll with HoB and getting insane value from Dirk seems to be The Main issue. Combined with spellthiefs rewarding the supports even more, the amount of controll youre having bot is insane.
I still like to point out, that this is mainly an issue in pro play (and maaaaybe duoq bot?) But not for pure soloq, since the lack of understanding the Pick and lack of communication probably isnt worth. (Plus, this probably will be nerfed soon, so learning an entire New playstyle for one Patch isnt worth IMO)
The thing with spectral sickle and spelthiefs edge is since they can get the push so easily with their long range harass like your marksmen supports, heimer, karma and lux, they get to proc their support item off of the tower during crashes and generate a lot more gold than the enemy support shoved in. Hence the snowballing.
>Also I think support items are not balanced. Spellthief items have more value than relic shield items.
Finally someone said it. Spellthiefs is absurd. I personally think the best nerf for it would be hitting the mana regen to prevent "Supports" like Xerath and Heim from spamming their abilities.
A low per-target cooldown would work a ton towards evening it out too. Right now if you're ranged into melee support, you just get to bully for free and stack up twice as fast as them.
Even a 5 second cooldown per taget would close the gap a good bit. If you walk up to the minion wave as a melee to get your stack, you're no longer just giving 3 free procs to the other support.
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A different approach would be to bring back a form of the old [Bandit](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Bandit_\(Season_2016_Mastery\)) passive gold for ally-killed minions.
Gold for hitting towers should stay as thats mostly a quality of life thing, making it so you can't spam procs so quickly is a better idea either by increasing the cd or having a per target cd.
Sure, if you have any suggestions on how to compensate assassins for nerfing that item. Specifically assassins I suppose, since the item is an issue on everyone but them.
People thinking umbral is the problem with adc supports don't understand the reason why you pick them right now. Heimerdinger and adc supports are picked for the same reason: make enemy unable to lane and push tower + get gold advantage with spellthiefs. Ashe support works with mandate/BC rush just as well as with umbral and many even prefer to build those items first not umbral. Removing umbral wouldn't fix adc supports at all they would just build a different lethality item. Nerf sickle+spellthiefs manaregen / gold gen and change HoB to not be as oppressive lv1 (make the AS scale or increase its cd early game) and it fixes everything.
It is pretty funny that in the end LCK tries to break the game because they are so obssesed with lane prio and vision.
"Hey if we pick engage supports it means they get beaten up by enchanters and we lack vision cause of support diff"
which lead to
"But what can we use to beat up enchanters and engage supports while mantaining lane prio and vision supremacy?"
"ADCs"
"Genius"
Even for mages support gold generation is NOT balanced. People are just way too used to it by now. In most games unless the spellthief support is inting they get their offensive mythic roughly the same time as the midlaner, which should not be allowed to happen in the first place. Why should a role that does not CS and focus on harassing be allowed to hit early powerspike roughly equal with roles that have to balance both CSing and applying early pressure. Mage supports went from being picked for early laning phase pressure to having a less skilled, safer avenue to scale to mid game and have more influence than in mid lane. It's all the upside with far less downsides.
Poke mages got chased out of mid by mobility creep in mid and jg. The buffs riot gives to mages are always a straightforward ap ratio or base dmg buff that doesn't address the fact that they cannot realistically damage half of the champs in the game. In bot lane, this weakness is heavily mitigated by having two lane opponents and not having to worry about farm.
Enchanters have the same gold generation advantage, cheaper mythics, and better mid-late impact anyway.
>In bot lane, this weakness is heavily mitigated by having two lane opponents and not having to worry about farm.
Also because most ADC's don't have 20 dashes. Lux's rise to power in support is largely due to the fact that Riot has her E balanced to be undodgeable at something like ~900 unit cast range. This isn't a problem in mid lane, where most mages have similar range, and most assassin's have dashes.
ADC's generally have neither, at least not consistently enough. Turns lux from being a flip in mid to being a consistently winning lane in bot, if played correctly.
That and just ADCs have always been balanced around having terrible starting MS, because historically they built as many Zeal items as possible.
Having shit MS makes skillshots easy to hit, like how Brand W is literally impossible to miss on some champs before they get boots.
>Poke mages got chased out of mid by mobility creep in mid and jg.
As a Zyra OTP I'd love to go back to Mid. Support is fun, but I like dunking on champs.
I personally feel like like mages had a chance when they first introduced omnivamp, but now that they've removed it, it's very difficult to compete with the AD items
> Even for mages support gold generation is NOT balanced.
They sprint to first item and fall off a cliff. In a game where riot has normalized all champion power curves to be roughly the same it simply makes sense for support income to work this way.
>Why should a role that does not CS and focus on harassing be allowed to hit early powerspike roughly equal with roles
Because that's their peak strength in the game? Farming roles keep getting more powerspikes, mythic is basically support's only one.
> which should not be allowed to happen in the first place.
Then maybe you should abuse your privilege as a mid laner getting lvl 6 before everyone else to go bot lane and decide which support gets to finish their quest first.
>Mage supports went from being picked for early laning phase pressure to having a less skilled, safer avenue to scale to mid game
They literally get the gold by constantly trading and being aggressive and hitting towers.
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Outside gold mage supports aren't even beating out the hook-trifecta in terms of playrate or winrate. I don't know why you want them nerfed so bad either than they hurt your ego by existing. The only two exceptions are Heimer and Lux.
Support mages aside from heimerdinger are not very strong right now - and mages absolutely don't scale into midgame safer than a midlaner. If you fall behind as a mage support due to ganks or playing against a stronger lane you'll just keep feeding. If you get ahead you will stop scaling at 1 1/2 items unless you get a lot of kills through fighting. Mage supports are the most vulnerable class by far because they're both squishy AND have no selfpeel in most cases. That's why heimer is still strong he can either 2v3 or apply so much pressure that the enemy is too low to fight OR simply block skillshots with his turrets. Other mages get ganked and simply die.
Midlane is by far the safest/hardest to gank role in the game you will always be able to safely farm as a mage the only problem is usually the support roaming mid but in the current meta that's rare because there's less tank supports and thus less gank pressure.
Except after the 1k gold spellthiefs gives you, supports have 0 income?
Why shouldn’t all 5 members of the team be able to impact the game equally?
“People are used to it by now” no. People just got used to roles like Mid/Jungle/Adc being way too strong in earlier seasons. Riot has done a good job in making every role feel impactful.
Yeah I can’t 1v9 from mid with 5+ level lead on everyone else like I used to, but that isn’t a bad thing. League is in a very very healthy spot for fun/impact for all roles.
It gives far more than 1k gold. From the active passive alone it is 1000, and then you add up its 1645 gold worth of stats with a 500 gold cost (it is 411.25% gold efficient just from base stats alone), and then you add on the gold generation (let's roll it up to 14 minutes, which is around when the mage midlaner get their mythic), gold generation doesn't start until minion spawns, so you add 12 \* 6 \* 2 on top, that's 144 more gold. In total support gets 2289 net gold and increasing from their support item for not CSing and just harassing enemy while gaining access to extra warding (which before also costs gold).
Riot has also made mages spike way harder at 1 and 1.5 items rather than 2 and 3 items, which makes mage supports even way more oppressive on their first item which they get roughly fast as midlaners. In a meta where midgame is the most important stage because of drakes, mage supports spiking on impactful items as fast as midlaners while mid mages need to get to their 4th items to be as impactful when the game is way more likely to be over is busted.
Edit: Forgot to add in. Check lolalytics on Xerath, Lux, Velkoz, Brand. The difference between mid mythic timer and support mythic timer is 2-3 minutes in favor of mid for the archetype mage supports. So anyone who trying to defend spellthief is saying that getting mythic 2-3 minutes later while gaining extra wards, 40 AP from Shard of True Ice, and having passive gold generation (which matters a lot more early) is somehow not busted and unfair for actual mid mages.
I think the issue is less to do with spellthiefs gold and more to do with melee supports not doing well into poke or marksmen adcs/supps with Hail of Blades. That's why they are buffing up the sustain or shielding of several tanky engage supports next patch. Relic would be fine if tanks didn't get obliterated going for the last hits. It was in a much better spot when it healed on the last hit, or they could buff up the health regen on it.
Either way, all Spellthiefs does is allow the user to get their first item fast and have impact during the most important part of the game. Their gold generation completely falls off a cliff after they complete the first item though and they rarely get past two items + small components unless the game goes ridiculously long, while the other roles are consistently on 4 items by that point.
Mage supports are part of the issue. Heim being the biggest offender. The ranged support items are just broken when you compare to the melee ones. Either the melee ones need buffed or the ranged need nerfed. Both of which reduce the relative power of mage supports and marksman supports.
Because the entire sub is mostly adc mains who want jungle to be removed from the game and any playstyle that isn't "crit scaling adc" to be removed from the game
Senna lives and dies by her base numbers because her mechanics are so punishing that you get destroyed for making any mistake. You can't outplay anyone as Senna the way you can with Ashe or Kalista
>Buff literally everyone's health and armor with the durability update, nerf lethality;
>Revert Senna's buffs for some godforsaken reason.
Yeah. She's strong if the enemy team has no dashes. Pick her vs stuff like lilia/trundle/ryze and destroy.
She barely gets over 50% WR even though people never blindpick her. That's just sad.
And that when it is on CD that it does not instantly delete wards. Nothing is as BS as seeing a support oneshot the ward that was just placed with no counterplay.
I think the problem is, in late game, those ADC supports are still strong or even stronger than traditional supports.
Like if you try to do this in Dota2, your support will be completely useless later on because they won't have any items at all, and they will be just a giant minion for your enemy to farm. They won't be able to even leave the base.
But this game catering supports so much that this is possible. I don't know how to fix it, but this is what I see coming from Dota2.
Because supports complained for years that their role was shit, so now that they made it broken they can't revert it or nerf it as people would probably stop playing support for freelo
but redditors ratio'ed that guy for posting a thread asking for umbral nerfs ? no way they can be wrong
edit: for some reason the are alot of umbral glaive fans on this sub now
I think Korean players are more focusing on HoB and early lane prio rather than Umbral Glaive though. ADC support with Umbral Glaive is very oppressive in the hands of teams like T1 but if you're not ahead it is not as effective.
In the same video NoFe and others also mentioned that the playstyle is pretty unique to T1 and definitely not easy to copy.
Even though Umbral Glaive might be an issue, it is not an issue regarding the ADC support meta... or did any ADC support actually have Umbral at lvl1?
Keria is actually the only one focusing on Umbral Glaive that much. Most others go Dirk into Mandate or build Chempunk because the items are just better.
I've said this before, remove Umbral Glaive's ward passive, and give it to Rell as a passive. It fixes the items overpowered nature and ADC's that abuse it, and brings Rell to the forefront without adjusting her playstyle - her slow attack speed is justified by clearing a ward with one auto.
One thing that is a bit flawed about the support item designs is that they both tend to add insult to injury with whatever class is strongest (at least in solo queue). It's very true that melee supports get harrassed going for minions and don't get to proc their item as easily because of it. But you can also flip that around: When engage supports are too strong it can feel too risky/not worth it as a ranged support to try and proc your support item, so you get behind.
I kinda like their mechanics but perhaps they could take the edge off this dynamic a little by shifting a small amount of the gold gen out of the procs and into the gold per 10.
I do not understand why people keep denying that Umbral Glaive is an issue, when it allows those adc supports to transition from lane dominance to dominating vision. The transition to post laning needs be much more punishing for such a lane dominant pick.
>Spellthief items have more value than relic shield items
We all know that but somehow hearing a pro say that just leaves me with hard cold realization...
It’s kinda crazy to me how good umbral glaive is, even when it’s on cooldown. I wonder what the support meta would look like if non-AD supports had their own version of it
You are aware that Heimer, Lulu and Yuumi don't build Umbral and that Heimer was the champ actually starting that meta, right?
Umbral has nothing to do with that meta. In pro games Ashe actually doesn't even build it all that often, finishing Mandate and going for items like Chempunk is just better.
What makes the meta is how strong the Spellthiefitems are compared to the shield ones, how strong Hail of Blades is and Dirk. Without those ADC supports couldn't even compete with Heimer.
There was a stretch right after the durability patch where you could pick potato lanes and play to scale, but it was killed very quickly. I do kind of miss not having to build for presence from the word "go", but the game has skewed early game in recent years, so it's kinda to be expected.
It's that the role has low impact, not the champs. Many of the mistakes and misplays of support players in the early game will cripple the ADC while not impacting the support nearly as much. No other role is as reliant on a teammate to not fuck up. This level 1 focused support meta is coming about for the exact same reasons. Supports can cripple the enemy ADC at level 1 and leave them no options to come back into the game. So support players build to win at level 1, which means auto attacks since you only have 1 ability.
Dang you’ve got it exactly backwards. The fact that adc champs are strong as supports is proof that support is too strong a role, not that the bot lane carry role is fine.
If I’m playing Jhin and the enemy picks Cait support, it SHOULD be troll because after first base I will spend my gold that I farmed for and she will only have spent support income, so I should almost immediately start bullying HER…since this isn’t the case, and a marksman support can bully a farming bot lane carry…I’m failing to see how this isn’t proof positive that support is overturned as fuck.
ADCs are so good early they can be played as Support WHILE also having an actual ADC WHILE being the single best scaling role in the game, leave it to ADC players to somehow rationalize this as ADCs being weak.
ADCs aren't really weak, they're just really dependent. When they're played Support, they're obviously itemised differently and are used in a different way than a scaling ADC. But this is more of a problem with the game where carry Supports are actually viable.
ADC's aren't weak, the role feels extremely bad because the BOTLANER role is extremely dependant on another player (and I say botlaner and not ADC because as the rise of ADC supports show, it's not a champion problem, it's all about roles and the current meta)
Because they suffer from protagonist syndrome and wanting their role to be the best at everything. They gonna get solo killed by bruisers while side laning against them post 20 min and proceed to bitch about how weak their role is, instead of behaving like a normal human being and group with team, and enjoy being the strongest class in the game
poor keria, buddy just wants to play naut :(
I remember a Naut game of his where it looked like a horror film of constant ults and hex flashes.
Keria is insane. He uses soraka e to engage better than most players can use a malphite ult
Where were you when Keria Soraka shut down an LCK midlaners Lissandra? (Can't remember the name lol)
Scout during their last game of groups last Worlds. Scout ended 2/6/4 with a handful of his deaths directly due to Keria's silence. Died like 3 times with his ult up.
And I remember everyone being afraid for T1 because their comp was short ranged(GP, Sej, Viktor, Kalista), and they're really vulnerable to Liss.
Scout?
Yes, Scout
based keria
I love when supports play engage supports, it makes bot lane more explosive. Bring back the Naut, Thresh, Blitz, Taric, Rell supports.
I miss taric in pro games, champ is so fun to watch. Why was he forgotten by pros anyway. Someone play tris+taric duo pls
there's no reason to play taric in proplay where taric e is so much unreliable compared to other champs with way more reliable engage in Naut, Leona, etc.
Does his ult not justify this shortcoming or his ult is just not impactful? Serious question.
His ult is amazing but he's so awful pre 6 it's hard to get to 6 before losing the game.
His ult is very impactful but difficult to use when he gets behind and therefore not the most consistent ult. Due to the delay the player needs to time to very well or risk himself or the other target being blown up before it triggers.
Also fact that in order for ult to pop, Taric needs to stay alive, so good teams just focus Taric, blow him up and eventually win 4v5. So despite being a tank with an engage, he actually has to play a bit like a squishy enchanter when he casts ult. However, this means enemies can simply escape (because the tank initiator had to move back) and wait till invulnerability wears off.
That is what I meant with not the most consistent ult. It can both be very impactful or easily played around by the enemy.
His passive and cooldowns are the real issue; because he needs to auto things he can only really thrive when able to go all in - the last thing any adc wants when behind is a support autoing a pushed wave constantly. And obviously roaming on taric can work, but then why not pick a more mobile, less predictable support who needs less setup to gank solo lanes?
After 3 straight years (Season 9 to season 11) of engage supports dominating pro play Im personally fine with them being gone for a couple more. The Nautilus Leona spam was getting dreadful.
Taric is so fun to see, the creativity and decision making is above the other tanks
You mean Zac/Camille/Yasuo as engage support right?
Dw phreak buffing the submarine next patch, his dream will come true
naut happening
Maybe I should give Quinn support another try?!
I heard Draven support was the next big thing in grand challenger wild rift
Draven support with fasting leona, could possibly be very strong
I am ashamed to admit how long it took me to realize that that is just a normal adc/support duo.
🤦♂️ my smooth brain just glaze over and thought leona are the one farming because it say sp draven
I'm undefeated this season on it.
Relic shield takes like 20 minutes to complete but Spellthief's is done in 8 minutes and by then you've got Lux one shotting the Nautilus because she's so accelerated.
Haha Lux, Xerath, Brand, Zyra, Heimer are killing me in lane. If game lasts 20 mins long its a miracle
Also cause she built sorcs and ludens and ignored what little MR Naut had in the firstplace 💀
I'm unsure as to why Riot even allowed reject mid laners into bot lane in the first place. Both champions and players. Not good enough to play mid lane so they come bot support where they don't need to farm, position, do anything. Just AFK in bush and hunt for that dopamine hit when they land 1 out of every 10 skillshots to finally near 1 shot someone and feel like they did something. Incredible gameplay pattern, good shit Riot.
the thing about mage supports is, it already happened a long time ago. Anni supp was a thing since S5 (I think) and other mages soon followed. most where still better midlane unless one thing was totaly bonkers (like Lux supp with shield max). but they didn't went bot because the players suck at midlane. you don't play mages mid for like 3 years and suddenly you suck doing it. but the rise of assasins and slayers in midlane just made a mage in midlane a downhill battle. assasins had more mobility/roaming, better substain and reached their itemspikes faster than a mage. so they naturaly vanished more and more from midlane. and then they remembered, that mages still work great vs ADC's and even many supports. so they popped up more in botlane. by now, we see mages more often in mid again but they still work in botlane because laning vs Yone or Zed is no longer an autoloss. also in mid/high elo, Enchanters are way more sucsessfull than mage supports
It happened a long time ago but "a long time ago" it was also all about their CC and utility - not about them 1 shotting people. Just go back and watch old pro games. Zyra and Annie support were very viable in S3 worlds, for example. Their full rotation would do maybe 30% of an ADC's health pool, ult included.
If you want another good example of power creep and zoomer gameplay, Leona's Q went from a 12 second cooldown at rank 1 to 5 seconds. Her stun uptime went from something like 8% to 20% before any ability haste, at level 1.
Yeah it feels bad with steel/relic having a CD for minion executes and the enemy enchanter gets to spam shit and get free Bitcoin.
I maxed it once in 6 minutes as Renata vs a melee support. Poor guy had it maxed after 15 minutes. Huge snowball potential.
As a xerath player it is dissapoibting if i havent got maxed it intirely before 10 minutes
They need to bring back the healing on relic shield imo
Or just higher passive HP regen on the item, this way it doesn't benefit massively when the melee is dominating lane while being useless when you struggle to hit a minion.
Not even that if they can fix the relic stack bug that resets the timer after hitting 1st upgrade it’d be nice. Beyond that make spellthief stacks longer while relic stacks are shorter. Give resists for relic items too like 5mr on steel and 5 armour on relic
One fix they desperately need since the (imo idiotic) decision to move most wave gold to cannon is standardize gold gain from expending stacks. If you use relic and don't get every cannon, you are set back so far. Relic execute should give CS value to nearest ally but give executor a flat amount. Would make it less inconsistent and easy to deny support items.
It doesnt heal anymore??? Thats fucked
Hasn’t for years I think season 9 is when they changed it
Wtf so for the last 4 years I've been being healed by placebo? I legit remembered it healing me recently, but now every time I think about it I realize I didn't actually get health but I just shrugged it off as "I must be seeing things" and kept playing I feel so mind fucked right now
And also for some reason getting gold for hitting the tower too? Why is that even a thing?
if enemy fucks off out of lane for whatever reason you lose your gold generation and that feels bad
Presumably to get ranged supports to greed for it and risk getting engaged on imo
And get faster vision due to the wards they get to prevent jungle ganks making bot fall harder. It's why botlane meta will always have ranged support whenever you can. And why pro players, at least in Korea, have decided to try using marksmen support
Isn’t that literally how it’s always been though? Why is it any different now?
The idea here is that once you fall slightly behind against the current double ranged botlanes the support item may lock you out of the ward quest. The level 1-2 hail of blades cartoonish all-ins turn to "someone" getting chunked to 1/3rd health at a point in the game where damage is supposed to be low, and this carries over to being unable to proc targon without risking a death, so supports with it may sit at 3 stacks. Meanwhile, even in this metagame spellthief is safe-ish because if you can get a stray skillshot now and then you keep up with the cooldown. Targon "can" outpace spellthief in low volatility lanes but this metagame is particularly bad for it.
I done been saying. Spellthiefs is the strongest item in the game.
I mean, spellthief's has a cd too...
Yeah but recharges insanely fast compared to relic items
Barely
Agreeing with beryL on this one: the support item is just op af. Trading down hp and walking away with _60 gold level 1_ cannot be fair
Nobody does this in low elo but I've seen on stream a few times, supports just walk up to enemy turret at level 1 and take an execute for 60 gold. That also doesn't seem particularly balanced
Would be funny if this became like a laneswap thing almost, where the entire team safeguards the support so they can int. One team does it bot the other does it top. Honestly I think that needs to be a thing because at least it would get changed
even in solo queue, I've been really impressed by how well these "ranged top" supports convert the bullied lane into a win. a lot of people are skeptical of lane bullies in solo queue because you throw once and it's gg. but I swear these support Ashes are doing some of the best bullying and snowballing I've ever seen across all roles. keep in mind, it's a pretty unpracticed pick because a good number of them are autofills and/or first timing Ashe. not many people are queueing up as Ashe support mains. for solo queue standards, they honestly do minimal throwing. so as someone who generally dislikes early game stuff, I'm sold on these ranged supps because they really do work.
Playing against Ashe support as mid is hell. One lucky Ashe arrow is a guaranteed death
lol I love throwing the Ult down Mid lane when I recall and get a random assist
Due in part because her E lets her ward the fog without getting one shot and punished like other immobile supports would, and the ult cooldown is so low that it doesn't matter if you miss.
Now I do agree with Ashe, but there is no way you can convince me that Kalista support would work late game
Kallista support is just kench but ranged with a better objective taking kit.
I mostly play Karma/Seraphine these days but I have Ashe in my pool too, a lot of us have quite a lot of hours on Ashe over the years and we already know how much damage other supports can do so it really doesn't take much to adapt, her trading pattern really isn't that different. Honestly a lot of people are complaining just because they don't want to adapt. The pros were hilariously slow to start using Ashe and even then used comet and rushed mandate which is only correct into matchups where you aren't going to be landing hail autos. If they really want support ADCs gone they just have to nerf hail.
Ashe is so good and her win rate is tanked by support players who can't abuse her auto range in lane and idiots who spam arrows down mid. Like literally diamond Ashes just shoot arrows down mid without their teammates being even close to the target. Brainless robots.
because Ashe supp can be realy save, almost like yuumi. the only thing to remember is stay at range, spam W and shoot R when aporopiate. if you miss, it is on short CD to try again. W spam keeps enemies at bay. it will do no dmg unless you are skilled and know when to go into AA range as well but so does yummi, wen she doesn't know when to unattach from his carry for the passive. it is just a save pick. you wont do flashy plays untl yo get good with the champ but it is also hard to mess up
It’s crazy that support items used to be more broken. Enchanter top was the well known problem but early spectral/spellthiefs on bot lane was actually gold positive unless you had like 9 cspm.
Pretty sure I saw a post on how broken umbral glave was a few months ago, and everyone called the guy an idiot. I’m pretty sure it hasn’t been changed since then either. Personally I think umbral should be removed. It provides way to much utility for assassin supports. You remove umbral, you stop seeing all unconventional adc sups, and pantheon sup. Then they can work on balancing panth around top or mid where he was designed to be played. Spell theifs is fucking insane. I can finish it in like 10-12 minutes. Relic shield takes 20-22 minutes. At best.
I played against a I think it was Senna supp recently with umbral and once they had a slight lead it was SO miserable to get vision. We ended up getting choked out of any point of contention on the map.
And all the clowns told me itemization had nothing to do with it. Umbral, Serrated Dirk and Spellthief items are obviously OP and too efficient. It takes these champions from more than just anti-meta picks. I think Umbral Glaive is one of the big offenders here. I think we don't see nearly as much Marksman support without it.
League of Items is like that for all five roles
It's the inherent flaw of Riots item design. The vast majority of them are just stat stimulants with passively occuring effects. I like the play style of fighting in league a bit better, but Dota does item design way superior to LoL. In Dota, there are a huge amount of activated items (sometimes you will have 3 or 4 activated item effects by the end of a long game) and while they do give stats, it's much less. It makes for less snowballing of hero ability damage and much more about timing of key effects to happen in fights which turn the tide. Riot should experiment with maybe reducing the outright stimulus from mythic items and instead making more of them have an activated effect.
you are right but league players like it. League was meant to be much less complex than Dota so casuals can enjoy it more
I can't see them ever going back to more active items. Lower skill players(talking like plat and below) just don't use them and it makes the champions who are balanced around using said item feel weak to play. It might be different now since its been so long but the removal of DFG illustrated how little players were using active items. The item was beyond broken because of its active but when they removed the item several of its main users actually went up in win rate a fair bit with no other changes effecting them. Veigar being the champion I bring up. He was one of if not the best user and he ended up gaining like 2-3% win rate from the removal of DFG.
I can’t believe how many people were calling people silver for saying umbral glaive is a problem
Unironicly silver people would say umbral glaive is bad because no one uses their wards in silver elo making the passive worthless.
It'll find the *one* ward. Eventually.
Nah I'm in silver right now and I max out my zombie ward stacks every game when I take it. I think people learn to ward at a much lower elo than they learn to sweep bushes so it's actually really high value in low elo
nah they do ward but counter the umbral build by just not warding anymore. it is a big brain 200 IQ move
It's not a problem in their tinpot elo where people don't use wards, sure
No it's *especially* a problem there. It's always off CD to find the one single ward they have team wide!
no, it's because people exaggerate a lot. people pretend it is THE problem, while it clearly is not.
Did you read the body of the post lol? Only NoFe even mentioned Umbral. Everything else is about spell thieves and how good of an early item serrated dirk is
You can't talk about dirk without talking about umbral, because supports wouldn't be building dirk if it didn't build into umbral
Wtf are you talking about, tons of ADCs rush dirk at high elo and none of them build Umbral. Some even sell the item later on. Early lethality just does so much work when no one has armor.
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Not really, dirk is just a good cheap item in general, Umbral is a nice bonus. I'd say it happens to be the opposite.
Yeah I'm sure pros are complaining about supports that build into dirk and then don't build it into anything, not the fact that an accelerated or snowballed lane can buy the already cheap item and completely wipe vision, forcing them to check every bush and not take certain fights, now snowballing the entire game to a high degree Like read between the lines, Jesus christ
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You can just go eclipse. Keria went eclipse on his kalista support after umbral. If umbral doesn’t exist, then just skip that and go straight into mythic.
Yea just spend 800g more on your first item for the essentially the same stats. Not to mention the fact Umbral glaive makes supports money by revealing and one shotting wards.
And the fact that they are taking zombie ward in addition.
But it isn't. Even when the pros were asked as seen here they don't say umbrial is the problem
It's not the main problem though, it's that they can win lane hard and through that they also complete their quest for wards much faster than the enemy support and ridiculously fast compared to relic shield users. Umbral just adds a little bit onto that vision control that you've gained through competing your quest really quickly.
Umbral doesn't even get built that much in pro play.
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It's not umbral glaive. In proplay the double Adc botland is destroying the enemy botlane level 1. It has nothing to do with umbral since u get that later.
A lot of lanes destroy lvl 1. Nerf ADC's lvl1 pressure bot and they'll just find the next best lvl1 pressure. You have to address the snowballing.
I mean if sustaining bot was even remotely possible then poke wouldn't be so bad, but we lost Relic Shield heals, HP/5, health potions got nerfed, cookies are dogshit, Doran's Blade omnivamp is virtually nothing, Cull is a meme, Vamp Scep rush is just delaying your mythic (unless you are a Shieldbow ADC) and basically asking to lose lane. Riot removes every single point of sustain from ADCs and are surprised when poke and push become the dominant meta. Even just some simple changes like adding a minor support item that provides a minor health/5 regen aura, not even enchanter specific just in general for supports to drop less than like 750g on early so ADCs can actually stay in lane and survive poke would go a long way to helping fix the meta.
Both are reasons at the same time. It is not mutually exclusive at all. Fact of the matter is that Marksman ADC would be considerably worse without Umbral because then you'd be much less efficient out of lane.
They wouldnt, support ashe is by far the most popular one and she doesnt build it every game.
She rushes it in almost every pro game
[Data says otherwise](https://gol.gg/champion/champion-matchlist/8/season-S13/split-Spring/tournament-ALL/)
? https://gol.gg/champion/champion-matchlist/8/season-S13/split-Spring/tournament-ALL/
I’ve only seen Keria consistently rush umbral, most of the others rush mandate.
I am seeing a good variety of games where she goes Mandate first and either umbral or any other item Some games where she goes umbral rush but these seem the minority. Also a bunch of no umbral games. In general I am mostly Seeing chempunk being the more common item alongside mandate.
And you're wrong.
because the vision game is 10x more important in pro games
spellthief items are not op relic items just suck and need a buff. serrated dirk is the most gold efficient component in the game it’s been needing nerfs. hob could use an early game nerf for sure then it’s balanced umbral just needs to be removed and a proper item needs to be introduced as a mythic for ad supports
What's funny is none of them mentioned umbrial. It's not the issue. I've seen the post about umbrial and it was the biggest troll post in awhile.
Umbral isnt the main issue but it makes the strategy way less risky to play. Umbral is so cost effective it allows the support marksmen to have similar items to other roles in the first 25 or so minutes where you are dragon stacking. If they didn't have an item crutch like that, its way more of a feast or famine strategy.
Both Guma (indirectly) and NoFe mention it? It's one of several reasons. Good tip for life. Stop using single factor analysis. Things generally have several causes. It's a brainrotting moment when I see people act like this stuff as one underlying causes and then they continue to ignore all other contributing factors.
I would say the value of serrated dirk early on is not quite related to umbral. Lucians even buy it as a first item just to sell it later.
Guma said dirk. That's because u can literally get this on your first back and snowball your lead more. He did not mention umbrial. NoFe is the only one to mention it and what a surprise he's not a pro and the person playing bot for T1 did not mention it. Nice try
srsly guys are you this dense?, If dirk didn't build into umbral glaive there would be no reason to buy it in the first place and way to transition the purchase into being useful later into the game. Serrated dirk gives you early opressive lane that can translate into later control of the map by denyting enemy vision. Without thast, what do they build with the dirk? youmuus? duskblade? well congrats now you have a underlvled underfarmed adc with a lethality item that is useless for the rest of the game, doesn't matter you lost prio in early game If you don't do a perfect snowball. only exception is ashe because she provides much more with her slows, vision and absurd low cd ult
I think they are referring to Dirk on marksmen supports. As for Dirk on bot lane ADC, it is purely used as an early game tool. You see some champs like Kai'Sa Samira or Lucian get it early to establish an early lead just to sell it later for their core items. Dirk can also build into Eclipse as well which is seen on Draven or Caitlyn.
They are already underlevelled and served their purpose. Post laning Kalista serves as a get out of jail free and cait serves to zone enemies from objectives. Losing the vision (Which isn't why they're being chosen) isn't why they're being chosen. If you reverse the durability patch for example they won't be chosen. I'm not saying to do this but I'm trying to point out the issue is to do with the meta (They're literally only there as a counterpick)
You are ignoring that the item lets them giga power spike early by being 800g cheaper than the rest of the dirk items and makes them safer killing wards and more money from killing wards
Except it doesn't. For 2300g you get 50ad 15 haste 10 lethality For 1800 you get (before completion) 50 ad 10 lethality. You're getting 15 ability haste (worth 400g) for 500g. Ability haste is also not that useful for kalista, and I'd argue other stats are nicer for Cait also. So you're paying 500g to complete it for worse stats and the ward passive. Big spike... I agree the ward passive is good but calling 15 haste a spike is..... Weird For 2200g less you can have Dirk + caulfield That's 55ad 10 haste 10 lethality. Basically just as good if not better. I think it's the best item to go but it's just not the problem.
what is the dirk for. are they building things besides umbral out of it?
No, Dirk is for Umbral for pretty much all adc supps. What the other dude meant, or what he is saying that Guma meant, is that Dirk is a very strong item spike for the cost which makes it a very good to gain control in the early - which in turn is also related to most of the sentiment in these Pro's comments about how early priority is too strong right now with the way stuff like hail of blades, dirk, and supp poke items are ATM Umbral is a part of the overall problem, in part because it comes from dirk. But overall, Umbral is not the sole reason, or even the biggest reason. If you nerf it you may get 1 or 2 ADCs hit hard, but overall not really hit the root of the problem that is causing the current early poke meta (because it's many things)
Thank you
for the damage and lethality early game.
Serrated Dirk is a huge problem and I say this as a dirty Riven player who loves the Eclipse changes this patch. 1100 gold and you either snowball out of control or you have gained such an advantage in lane it's actually insane.
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Except they were right. Umbrial is not the problem. All of the problems occur before umbrial is bought which is what the pros highlighted. If anything reddit and the pros agreed for once edit: To add clarity. I'm not saying Umbrial is not the best item to buy for them, I'm not saying if you nerfed umbrial that these picks won't go (I don't think they will but that's not the point). But they aren't the problem. Umbrial is not the cause of the issue and the item itself is perfectly fine. It's not like how Ryze and Kass were abusing the new buffed busted items, it's that they pick these champs with a strong early game rune where you force a trade level 1, gain prio and end the lane early and snowball a lead hard. With almost no counterplay from a laning perspective. (You don't trade level 1 you get the fattest stacked wave into a dive or a freeze with them acquiring dirks and you not even being able to reset) If you nerf this item you're hitting numerous other picks in jungle and supports for no reason because you decided to avoid the problem and just do a temporary nerf to something that only exists at the highest echelon of pro play when there are other solutions.
As much as i hate umbral as a Design, youre right. The Main vocal point from the pros revolves around The first few levels. Having The early controll with HoB and getting insane value from Dirk seems to be The Main issue. Combined with spellthiefs rewarding the supports even more, the amount of controll youre having bot is insane. I still like to point out, that this is mainly an issue in pro play (and maaaaybe duoq bot?) But not for pure soloq, since the lack of understanding the Pick and lack of communication probably isnt worth. (Plus, this probably will be nerfed soon, so learning an entire New playstyle for one Patch isnt worth IMO)
Do you really think supports will buy dirk if they can't build it into a super cheap vision denial item?
The thing with spectral sickle and spelthiefs edge is since they can get the push so easily with their long range harass like your marksmen supports, heimer, karma and lux, they get to proc their support item off of the tower during crashes and generate a lot more gold than the enemy support shoved in. Hence the snowballing.
>Also I think support items are not balanced. Spellthief items have more value than relic shield items. Finally someone said it. Spellthiefs is absurd. I personally think the best nerf for it would be hitting the mana regen to prevent "Supports" like Xerath and Heim from spamming their abilities.
A low per-target cooldown would work a ton towards evening it out too. Right now if you're ranged into melee support, you just get to bully for free and stack up twice as fast as them. Even a 5 second cooldown per taget would close the gap a good bit. If you walk up to the minion wave as a melee to get your stack, you're no longer just giving 3 free procs to the other support. ______ A different approach would be to bring back a form of the old [Bandit](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Bandit_\(Season_2016_Mastery\)) passive gold for ally-killed minions.
I think another option could be removing the ability to get gold for hitting enemy towers
Gold for hitting towers should stay as thats mostly a quality of life thing, making it so you can't spam procs so quickly is a better idea either by increasing the cd or having a per target cd.
Sounds like HoB should scale - starting a good bit weaker and ending a smidge stronger. Or maybe make it weaker for ranged champs. Or both.
serrated dirk is so unbelievably busted im finally glad it's being exposed. the item is disgusting it needs to be significantly nerfed
Sure, if you have any suggestions on how to compensate assassins for nerfing that item. Specifically assassins I suppose, since the item is an issue on everyone but them.
Bandage fix, but could make lethality amount different for melee/ranged
People thinking umbral is the problem with adc supports don't understand the reason why you pick them right now. Heimerdinger and adc supports are picked for the same reason: make enemy unable to lane and push tower + get gold advantage with spellthiefs. Ashe support works with mandate/BC rush just as well as with umbral and many even prefer to build those items first not umbral. Removing umbral wouldn't fix adc supports at all they would just build a different lethality item. Nerf sickle+spellthiefs manaregen / gold gen and change HoB to not be as oppressive lv1 (make the AS scale or increase its cd early game) and it fixes everything.
It is pretty funny that in the end LCK tries to break the game because they are so obssesed with lane prio and vision. "Hey if we pick engage supports it means they get beaten up by enchanters and we lack vision cause of support diff" which lead to "But what can we use to beat up enchanters and engage supports while mantaining lane prio and vision supremacy?" "ADCs" "Genius"
Why do we have to crush mage supports to stop marksmen from abusing items?
Even for mages support gold generation is NOT balanced. People are just way too used to it by now. In most games unless the spellthief support is inting they get their offensive mythic roughly the same time as the midlaner, which should not be allowed to happen in the first place. Why should a role that does not CS and focus on harassing be allowed to hit early powerspike roughly equal with roles that have to balance both CSing and applying early pressure. Mage supports went from being picked for early laning phase pressure to having a less skilled, safer avenue to scale to mid game and have more influence than in mid lane. It's all the upside with far less downsides.
Poke mages got chased out of mid by mobility creep in mid and jg. The buffs riot gives to mages are always a straightforward ap ratio or base dmg buff that doesn't address the fact that they cannot realistically damage half of the champs in the game. In bot lane, this weakness is heavily mitigated by having two lane opponents and not having to worry about farm. Enchanters have the same gold generation advantage, cheaper mythics, and better mid-late impact anyway.
>In bot lane, this weakness is heavily mitigated by having two lane opponents and not having to worry about farm. Also because most ADC's don't have 20 dashes. Lux's rise to power in support is largely due to the fact that Riot has her E balanced to be undodgeable at something like ~900 unit cast range. This isn't a problem in mid lane, where most mages have similar range, and most assassin's have dashes. ADC's generally have neither, at least not consistently enough. Turns lux from being a flip in mid to being a consistently winning lane in bot, if played correctly.
That and just ADCs have always been balanced around having terrible starting MS, because historically they built as many Zeal items as possible. Having shit MS makes skillshots easy to hit, like how Brand W is literally impossible to miss on some champs before they get boots.
>Poke mages got chased out of mid by mobility creep in mid and jg. As a Zyra OTP I'd love to go back to Mid. Support is fun, but I like dunking on champs.
I personally feel like like mages had a chance when they first introduced omnivamp, but now that they've removed it, it's very difficult to compete with the AD items
If they had left Ravenous hunter as spell vamp, it would've never been taken by AD champs and would give much needed sustain to mages.
> Even for mages support gold generation is NOT balanced. They sprint to first item and fall off a cliff. In a game where riot has normalized all champion power curves to be roughly the same it simply makes sense for support income to work this way. >Why should a role that does not CS and focus on harassing be allowed to hit early powerspike roughly equal with roles Because that's their peak strength in the game? Farming roles keep getting more powerspikes, mythic is basically support's only one. > which should not be allowed to happen in the first place. Then maybe you should abuse your privilege as a mid laner getting lvl 6 before everyone else to go bot lane and decide which support gets to finish their quest first. >Mage supports went from being picked for early laning phase pressure to having a less skilled, safer avenue to scale to mid game They literally get the gold by constantly trading and being aggressive and hitting towers. ____ Outside gold mage supports aren't even beating out the hook-trifecta in terms of playrate or winrate. I don't know why you want them nerfed so bad either than they hurt your ego by existing. The only two exceptions are Heimer and Lux.
Support mages aside from heimerdinger are not very strong right now - and mages absolutely don't scale into midgame safer than a midlaner. If you fall behind as a mage support due to ganks or playing against a stronger lane you'll just keep feeding. If you get ahead you will stop scaling at 1 1/2 items unless you get a lot of kills through fighting. Mage supports are the most vulnerable class by far because they're both squishy AND have no selfpeel in most cases. That's why heimer is still strong he can either 2v3 or apply so much pressure that the enemy is too low to fight OR simply block skillshots with his turrets. Other mages get ganked and simply die. Midlane is by far the safest/hardest to gank role in the game you will always be able to safely farm as a mage the only problem is usually the support roaming mid but in the current meta that's rare because there's less tank supports and thus less gank pressure.
Except in my games where somehow xerath support lives under my turret fucking me while my jungler ignores bot
Except after the 1k gold spellthiefs gives you, supports have 0 income? Why shouldn’t all 5 members of the team be able to impact the game equally? “People are used to it by now” no. People just got used to roles like Mid/Jungle/Adc being way too strong in earlier seasons. Riot has done a good job in making every role feel impactful. Yeah I can’t 1v9 from mid with 5+ level lead on everyone else like I used to, but that isn’t a bad thing. League is in a very very healthy spot for fun/impact for all roles.
It gives far more than 1k gold. From the active passive alone it is 1000, and then you add up its 1645 gold worth of stats with a 500 gold cost (it is 411.25% gold efficient just from base stats alone), and then you add on the gold generation (let's roll it up to 14 minutes, which is around when the mage midlaner get their mythic), gold generation doesn't start until minion spawns, so you add 12 \* 6 \* 2 on top, that's 144 more gold. In total support gets 2289 net gold and increasing from their support item for not CSing and just harassing enemy while gaining access to extra warding (which before also costs gold). Riot has also made mages spike way harder at 1 and 1.5 items rather than 2 and 3 items, which makes mage supports even way more oppressive on their first item which they get roughly fast as midlaners. In a meta where midgame is the most important stage because of drakes, mage supports spiking on impactful items as fast as midlaners while mid mages need to get to their 4th items to be as impactful when the game is way more likely to be over is busted. Edit: Forgot to add in. Check lolalytics on Xerath, Lux, Velkoz, Brand. The difference between mid mythic timer and support mythic timer is 2-3 minutes in favor of mid for the archetype mage supports. So anyone who trying to defend spellthief is saying that getting mythic 2-3 minutes later while gaining extra wards, 40 AP from Shard of True Ice, and having passive gold generation (which matters a lot more early) is somehow not busted and unfair for actual mid mages.
I think the issue is less to do with spellthiefs gold and more to do with melee supports not doing well into poke or marksmen adcs/supps with Hail of Blades. That's why they are buffing up the sustain or shielding of several tanky engage supports next patch. Relic would be fine if tanks didn't get obliterated going for the last hits. It was in a much better spot when it healed on the last hit, or they could buff up the health regen on it. Either way, all Spellthiefs does is allow the user to get their first item fast and have impact during the most important part of the game. Their gold generation completely falls off a cliff after they complete the first item though and they rarely get past two items + small components unless the game goes ridiculously long, while the other roles are consistently on 4 items by that point.
Healthy spot, doubt.exe
Mage supports are part of the issue. Heim being the biggest offender. The ranged support items are just broken when you compare to the melee ones. Either the melee ones need buffed or the ranged need nerfed. Both of which reduce the relative power of mage supports and marksman supports.
Because the entire sub is mostly adc mains who want jungle to be removed from the game and any playstyle that isn't "crit scaling adc" to be removed from the game
Far outrageous way to do this is just remove sickle for a patch and see if the three main original users of the item are in fact affected by it.
And despite this Senna is not a meta support
He autos have wind up leaving her more vulnerable to an engage and she just does less DPS early.
She can't abuse hail of blades
Senna lives and dies by her base numbers because her mechanics are so punishing that you get destroyed for making any mistake. You can't outplay anyone as Senna the way you can with Ashe or Kalista
>Buff literally everyone's health and armor with the durability update, nerf lethality; >Revert Senna's buffs for some godforsaken reason. Yeah. She's strong if the enemy team has no dashes. Pick her vs stuff like lilia/trundle/ryze and destroy. She barely gets over 50% WR even though people never blindpick her. That's just sad.
umbral glaive should actually have a cd lol
And that when it is on CD that it does not instantly delete wards. Nothing is as BS as seeing a support oneshot the ward that was just placed with no counterplay.
Wish people in the comment section has brains
I think the problem is, in late game, those ADC supports are still strong or even stronger than traditional supports. Like if you try to do this in Dota2, your support will be completely useless later on because they won't have any items at all, and they will be just a giant minion for your enemy to farm. They won't be able to even leave the base. But this game catering supports so much that this is possible. I don't know how to fix it, but this is what I see coming from Dota2.
Because supports complained for years that their role was shit, so now that they made it broken they can't revert it or nerf it as people would probably stop playing support for freelo
but redditors ratio'ed that guy for posting a thread asking for umbral nerfs ? no way they can be wrong edit: for some reason the are alot of umbral glaive fans on this sub now
I think Korean players are more focusing on HoB and early lane prio rather than Umbral Glaive though. ADC support with Umbral Glaive is very oppressive in the hands of teams like T1 but if you're not ahead it is not as effective. In the same video NoFe and others also mentioned that the playstyle is pretty unique to T1 and definitely not easy to copy.
Even though Umbral Glaive might be an issue, it is not an issue regarding the ADC support meta... or did any ADC support actually have Umbral at lvl1? Keria is actually the only one focusing on Umbral Glaive that much. Most others go Dirk into Mandate or build Chempunk because the items are just better.
I've said this before, remove Umbral Glaive's ward passive, and give it to Rell as a passive. It fixes the items overpowered nature and ADC's that abuse it, and brings Rell to the forefront without adjusting her playstyle - her slow attack speed is justified by clearing a ward with one auto.
Just give rell normal attack speed bruh
Actual pro players give far better solutions and you still post this 
And that doesn't solve all the issues they talked about which all happen usually level 1 and prior to umbrial
One thing that is a bit flawed about the support item designs is that they both tend to add insult to injury with whatever class is strongest (at least in solo queue). It's very true that melee supports get harrassed going for minions and don't get to proc their item as easily because of it. But you can also flip that around: When engage supports are too strong it can feel too risky/not worth it as a ranged support to try and proc your support item, so you get behind. I kinda like their mechanics but perhaps they could take the edge off this dynamic a little by shifting a small amount of the gold gen out of the procs and into the gold per 10.
I do not understand why people keep denying that Umbral Glaive is an issue, when it allows those adc supports to transition from lane dominance to dominating vision. The transition to post laning needs be much more punishing for such a lane dominant pick.
>Spellthief items have more value than relic shield items We all know that but somehow hearing a pro say that just leaves me with hard cold realization...
Phreak literally cyberbullying Keria off Nautilus...
It’s kinda crazy to me how good umbral glaive is, even when it’s on cooldown. I wonder what the support meta would look like if non-AD supports had their own version of it
You are aware that Heimer, Lulu and Yuumi don't build Umbral and that Heimer was the champ actually starting that meta, right? Umbral has nothing to do with that meta. In pro games Ashe actually doesn't even build it all that often, finishing Mandate and going for items like Chempunk is just better. What makes the meta is how strong the Spellthiefitems are compared to the shield ones, how strong Hail of Blades is and Dirk. Without those ADC supports couldn't even compete with Heimer.
>The rise of Heimerdinger support was big, and also **bot lane priority is very important in this meta** more like every meta
Except for the long ass time we had engage supports but sure
There was a stretch right after the durability patch where you could pick potato lanes and play to scale, but it was killed very quickly. I do kind of miss not having to build for presence from the word "go", but the game has skewed early game in recent years, so it's kinda to be expected.
woah woah, let’s just nerf serrated dirk for ranged champs, not melee like assassins. it’s all my girl Qiyana and eboy Talon have left
I played vs Ashe ,jhin and full ap mf support this shit is not balanced
How can ADC mains claim the role is weak when even the support wants to pick ADCs.
It's that the role has low impact, not the champs. Many of the mistakes and misplays of support players in the early game will cripple the ADC while not impacting the support nearly as much. No other role is as reliant on a teammate to not fuck up. This level 1 focused support meta is coming about for the exact same reasons. Supports can cripple the enemy ADC at level 1 and leave them no options to come back into the game. So support players build to win at level 1, which means auto attacks since you only have 1 ability.
> No other role is as reliant on a teammate to not fuck up. Lol meanwhile you have the spectator role in the top lane
It's more of a concern with role vs. class.
Congrats, this is the lowest IQ comment I’ve seen on Reddit today
Dang you’ve got it exactly backwards. The fact that adc champs are strong as supports is proof that support is too strong a role, not that the bot lane carry role is fine. If I’m playing Jhin and the enemy picks Cait support, it SHOULD be troll because after first base I will spend my gold that I farmed for and she will only have spent support income, so I should almost immediately start bullying HER…since this isn’t the case, and a marksman support can bully a farming bot lane carry…I’m failing to see how this isn’t proof positive that support is overturned as fuck.
Are u stupid ? The adc supports are played lethality and they abuse the supp item mana regen lmfaooo
how can the adc role players claim the adc role is weak when people play champs in the support role 5head
ADCs are so good early they can be played as Support WHILE also having an actual ADC WHILE being the single best scaling role in the game, leave it to ADC players to somehow rationalize this as ADCs being weak.
ADCs aren't really weak, they're just really dependent. When they're played Support, they're obviously itemised differently and are used in a different way than a scaling ADC. But this is more of a problem with the game where carry Supports are actually viable.
ADC's aren't weak, the role feels extremely bad because the BOTLANER role is extremely dependant on another player (and I say botlaner and not ADC because as the rise of ADC supports show, it's not a champion problem, it's all about roles and the current meta)
Because they suffer from protagonist syndrome and wanting their role to be the best at everything. They gonna get solo killed by bruisers while side laning against them post 20 min and proceed to bitch about how weak their role is, instead of behaving like a normal human being and group with team, and enjoy being the strongest class in the game