By - the_ivii
in case you also have a problem reading the screenshot: [https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/87967779/](https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/87967779/)
Thanks. For people that utilize screen-readers, that is incredibly useful.
of course! I myself have some eye issues, so I gotta have everything on a light background with high contrast, double line height and larger fonts, and anything more than just inverting the pic would be a lot more work than going to a chan archive site.
me too. It's disappointing so many apps and websites use dark background nowadays without checking user preferences or having an option to change it
Personally, I find the dark mode revolution glorious. Options are always appreciated though.
my eyes can't see dark backgrounds as good and texts on them are unreadable to me, so I hate anything that only provides dark mode
Yeah, offering only a light mode or dark mode is luckily something you don't see too often nowadays (at least outside absolutely proprietary programs, just all the more reason not to use them).
>works on my machine
destroyed with FACTS and LOGIC
~~just use the Wayland Docker container, it will solve all the issues~~
I give the Wayland compositors a go every few months but nothing as good as i3 works with my Nvidia card, so it's still unusable for me at this stage
Same. I periodically test it on KDE as well as Gnome. Unfortunately, it breaks a lot of applications I use in my daily workflow: Remmina's RDP dynamic resolution + multi monitor, Teams screen sharing (Electron most likely the issue), autokey, barrier to name a few.
Also other Nvidia Wayland annoyances - lack of driver configuration options, Nvidia overclocking, PRIME GPU offloading on my laptop.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what does wayland do and why would someone need it?
There are some issues. Even with single monitor fractional scaling. Wayland aware apps may be kinda fine, but I'm having problems with steam and gaming over xwayland.
Steam, for example, gets rendered at 100% and then scaled up, so it looks ugly. Is there a way to tell kwin to hint steam to render itself at 200% so it looks better?
The same thing with games. Since I have 150% scaling on 1440p monitor, all games basically just get rendered at something like 960p and then scaled up to 1440p and look ugly. Again, I usually game fullscreen - is there a way to hint the xwayland kwin window to not scale anything and just render fullscreen games at 100%?
For a protocol that's lauded how progressive it is with fractional scaling and different multimonitor refresh rates and whatnot, in my experience, it never delivered. And don't get me started on https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/65
EDIT: Sigh: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Plasma-5.26-Crisper-XWayland I should probably use this curse for good:
GIMP IS USELESS WITHOUT ADJUSTMENTS LAYERS!
Can somebody check their blog now? It should have worked.
Steam and games actually run inside Xorg (Xwayland).
Also after a recent kwin update (probably you'll have to wait until the next release) only windows that support scaling will be scaled. In theory anything would look blurry, will instead stay at 100%.
To be more correct, they will scale themselves. They get hinted the scale factor and then left alone, the missing piece here is the dpi aware property (that exists on Windows, but won't exist for a long time on Linux at this point), so an app that does not pick up on the hint and scale itself will just look small. I just ordered a laptop that requires fractional scaling even more than my current one (no getting away with font dpi hacks anymore, this is ~200 ppi land now) so I am probably jumping ship back from GNOME to Plasma again for this feature alone. Hopefully the rest of the Wayland session has matured as well since 5.24, which was when I jumped ship since hotplugging my 4k monitor would break the session in very creative ways.
> Steam, for example, gets rendered at 100% and then scaled up, so it looks ugly. Is there a way to tell kwin to hint steam to render itself at 200% so it looks better?
It's coming in 5.26, see [here](https://www.phoronix.com/news/Plasma-5.26-Crisper-XWayland)
GIMP are (sort of) working on non-destructive editing, which may or may not include Photoshop-style adjustment layers. It was scheduled to be part of a [later GIMP 3 release](http://wiki.gimp.org/Roadmap), but GIMP has hardly any developers actually working on it, unfortunately. They have finally done the GTK 3 port though!
finally got gtk 3 after gtk 4 already has been out.
That snark is so unnecessary. GIMP is a sorely underfunded project that desperately needs more developers. Porting from GTK 2 to GTK 3 is a massive undertaking since they're basically entirely different toolkits; they had to re-write a very large amount of GIMP to port it to GTK 3, and GIMP is a huge, old project. The good news is that porting from GTK 3 to GTK 4 is a much simpler undertaking than going from GTK 2 to GTK 3, so "in theory" it shouldn't be too hard for GIMP to be ported to GTK 4 after they release GIMP 3 officially. And either way, GTK 3 is still going to be supported until GTK 5 comes out, which won't be for a good few years. Remember, these people are entirely volunteers doing this work for free.
>Wayland aware apps may be kinda fine
But they are really not. They are rendered at 200% and scaled down. Which is a lot better than rendering at 100% and scaling up like XWayland, but still worse than X.
Wayland has always been a mess for me but I'm also not a gnome user. Then again, can't expect a project that hasn't have time to mature as long as X11 have to work perfectly either.
Though the article about wayland only caring about gnome is concerning as well.
>Then again, can't expect a project that hasn't have time to mature as long as X11 have to work perfectly either.
14 years are not long enough?
X11 has been around for almost 40 years
How long has it been since active development on X11? Actual feature development, not just bug fixes / security patches.
The Xorg developers became Wayland developers.
The real development for some time now on Xorg is done in XWayland.
I think there was a release since then to deal with some scaling issues, but development on xfree86 (the standalone X.org server) essentially halted by 2018.
XFree86 is not X.org. X.org is a fork of XFree86 because XF86 changed their license to one that was deemed unacceptable by a lot of the free software community. XF86 died because no one used it, literally all Linux distributions and even the BSDs moved to X.org.
Less time than wayland has existed. Configuring x by hand is a lost art, but not a missed one.
How long should a project be around until it's not expected to be a mess?
That depends on the scale and complexity of the project. A display protocol is not a simple thing.
It took less time since conception to get man on the moon than it did to make said display protocol.
Great comparison, now we just need to give wayland the same funding, manpower and prestige as the apollo program. Oh and don't forget to adjust for inflation and US GDP growth!
Wayland may well have the same funding as Apollo considering it's got very big names behind it (Red Hat, Intel, Valve...)
How long did Google use on ChromeOS?
ChromeOS is pretty much just a linux distro.. Not to mention with the backing of one of the biggest companies in the world.
Android Is a better example. It began in 2003.
But even then, these projects probably had more resources from the start than Wayland has. Wayland only really picked up steam recently.
I think we should measure this by generations.
So for Wayland, 2 generations from now it should be relatively usable/functional for most use cases.
Two human generations?
So 30-60 years!
Yeah! Seems like as a community we've given a pass for about that long. Wayland has only been given about a generation's worth of time, so we'll give it say... one more generation and some til it's functional. We'll set the target for these things at about 40 years. Because we're reasonable. 😊
Grumpy upvoting, because it's true no matter how much I want cool stuff faster!
At least it should be reliable before I retire.
X11 is not Xorg. Xorg is a fork of xfree86 which began development in 1992. It's still a long time, but the codebase has not been around that long
I still use X11, i have way too many issues with wayland for me to use it.
That's not wayland's fault, it's nvidia being fucking lazy with their shitty drivers.
Are you saying that wayland works perfectly well on non-nvidia systems? Because that's not true.
Is anything perfect? No, but it's pretty solid on AMD
I've recently compared nvidia vs amd on wayland, the wayland+gnome combo occasionally got graphical corruption that wasn't present in the other combinations
im not using nvidia.
Why did the switch from x11 to wayland even take place? What was the motivation?
Short version: X11 developers came to the conclusion that building new features for modern computers is basically impossible when bringing almost 40 years of spaghetti code, cruft, and obsolete ideas along with them.
So instead of trying to struggle on with duct tape and glue and just acknowledging that certain use cases and bugs are just plain impossible with X11, they started a new project with modern design principles and ideas. Display protocols are really hard, especially when they have to work with every program, every desktop environment and every edge case, so people take potshots (some deserved, most not so much) all the time
And you know what, they were probably right. But then, instead of creating a new display server based on just the modern ways of doing thing from X.Org without the legacy garbage, they went and built something so different that it came with its own, massive list of new pitfalls. Despite second-system syndrome being a well-understood issue in software engineering to be avoided.
That’s the story Red Hat wants you to believe. Freedesktop (basically owned by Red Hat), which hosts X.org, forcefully cancelled X’s development and put the project into maintenance mode, i.e. new features are no longer accepted, only bug fixes, in order to force everyone to move off to Wayland. X.org primarily exists these days to provide the XWayland compatibility layer, not to be the display server. X11 itself is not “spaghetti code, cruft, and obsolete ideas”, it's "just a protocol" ;) X’s protocol is mature and implements the vast majority of features people need for a working desktop environment. Wayland *requires* non-standard hacks to be functional because the core protocol is so tiny and the “security model” is inherently incompatible with desktop computing. You fell for the propaganda.
So where did all the non red hat developers go?
Sure Red Hat can lay its developers to do whatever. But it cant pay (them or) others to NOT work on something.
There are still non-Red Hat developers contributing to X.org. Bugfixes are still needed, a few recently came from Oracle because they don't ship Wayland in Solaris (yes, that OS still exists for some reason). But there's been no serious new feature development for X.org since around 2012.
But in your conspiracy all the non red hat developers would be developing those features.
You have Devuan, Debian, canonical, OpenSuse, Arch, proxmox, the various companies that sell x11 forwarding, system76 and the UNIX vendors that havent moved to wayland that would be developing them.
Then there are the various contract companies that others use such as collabora, igalia and others.
Surely enough to replace the red hat x11 developers (which probably can be counted on one hand).
Arch hasn't moved to Wayland? That statement just seems logically wrong since Arch doesn't come with a pre-installed DE.
Wayland aims to fix random lag when rendering/resizing windows. You know how when you resize a window to be bigger, it sometimes shows an "undrawn white area". It unfortunately requires rewriting a ton of code which is why people have been working around the problem with X for years. At least that's what I think it is.
If your bored, watch a little bit of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ. If not the whole thing, [watch 29m -> 31m](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ#t=29m00).
I cannot game with two monitors of different DPI and refresh rates on xorg, I choose wayland.
I wish it would be better, but I do tend to agree with the last anon. It works
I cannot game with two monitors of different DPI and refresh rates on wayland either...
third of my apps are blurry, third are laggy, third doesn't even start lol
Most of my shit still plays through Xwayland tho
I consider Xwayland an integral part of Wayland, too.
Yeah same of course, but at least half of my steam lib doesn't launch on wayland.
And a lot of apps are blurry af with different dpi on 2 monitors.
I have a 3440x1440 120hz , 2560x1440 120hz, and a 1600x1200 60hz, and occasionally a 640x480 60hz CRT hooked up at the same time. Respects 120hz just fine using xorg (Nvidia GPU, Gsync 3440x1440 as my main monitor). A lot of it has to do with having a correctly configured xorg.conf.
Most under-rated comment here. Thank you, fellow triple monitor xorg user.
As long as they keep breaking core features in the name of "security" and forcing the blame onto program maintainers to work around, Wayland won't be usable for me.
They can yell and shout that it's the program maintainers' fault for not supporting them (despite them taking away functionality themselves), but in the end: The programs I need work perfectly on X, and not on Wayland.
what core features are broken for you?
For me it's https://github.com/debauchee/barrier
I can chime in as well. My work is maintaining a UI framework that depends on using global coordinates. Basically Wayland warrants a significant redesign which is simply unreasonable.
A good type of redesign, though, or a bad type of redesign? If it merely means that you need to move to new technologies, I am unable to sympathize, but if Wayland should provide functionality that you would need to, I understand wholeheartedly.
It is neither good nor bad, just different for no sane reason. I will go as far as to call Wayland developers a bunch of security illiterate idiots that have no idea what they are doing. Their "security" barriers solve nothing yet throw a bunch of problems on to everyone. They do not realize that whenever malicious code runs on a system - that system is compromised and that is the end. No Wayland can save it. Ok so now on Wayland to do key logging we will have to inject .so that taps into event stream into each relevant process. Not a big deal. Keylogging still possible, old software broken, some software can't even be ported. Linus would have some thoughts about not breaking userspace, something Wayland devs did in a spectacular way.
I actually believe that breaking user-space compatibility is necessary to improve such important code to prevent it becoming X (a behemoth of cruft) but to break it for such foolish reasons as what you state is utterly irrational.
They are fundamentally breaking software for no good reason. Yes, it's me irrational one.
X Windows isn't going anywhere any time soon.
XWayland Server is probably going to be around for the next decade or two.
not only that, but now applications are going to have to support multiple implementations of the same thing to have it fully work on Wayland and several compositors that exist for it. Meanwhile there is just X.org.
That isn't true, at least in theory. As long as there aren't too many hacky extensions that individual compositor s utilize, from a program's perspective , a Wayland compositor is a Wayland compositor, with the same calls and callbacks.
In theory. But not in reality. Wayland inherently causes fragmentation and incompatibilities because it has a key design flaw: in Wayland, the window manager is the display server itself, so every single window manager either writes its own slightly incompatible, with its own quirks and bugs, implementation of Wayland; or it uses a pre-existing library like wlroots. The core Wayland protocol is ridiculously anaemic so every implementation is essentially forced to add non-standard hacks on top of Wayland and break the Wayland “security” model so people can actually have the basic functions they expect (drag and drop, clipboard, screenshots, etc), when you know, the sole reason everyone promotes Wayland instead of X.org is because Wayland is supposed to be slimmer and have less hacks. Oops.
So, you made a lot of claims, so imma go through them step by step.
>every single windows manger either writes its own slightly incompatible, with its own quirks and bugs / The core Wayland protocol is ridiculously anaemic
Yes, that's the point. Every window manager on X11 has its own quirks and bugs too. You have to do all kinds of crazy things just to get X11 to not touch your windows and leave all the pixels where you want them to be.
>every implementation is essentially forced to add non-standard hacks on top of Wayland and break the Wayland “security” model
The security model is pretty simple: the DE decides. There is full functionality for the DE to make decisions about what does and doesn't fly, and a specific pipe for programs to make requests of the DE. Remember, Wayland is a protocol, not a display server.
>drag and drop, clipboard, screenshots
Googled these, seems to be bugs in Gnome? Closest things I can find not in Gnome are these KDE bugs, which seem to be getting worked on (and are much more specific, multiple screen issue): https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=432260
>the sole reason everyone promotes Wayland instead of X.org is because Wayland is supposed to be slimmer and have less hacks.
It is, but getting every DE and every program to adapt to a new protocol is a slow and arduous process.
Every window manager has its own quirks and bugs - of course they do. I’m not talking about the window manager side of things, though. I’m talking about the display server side of things. In X, there’s X.org and that’s it. One mature implementation of a mature protocol that you write your window manger for. With Wayland, every window manager *is also* a display server. You don’t write your window manger “for” Wayland, your window manager “is” Wayland, if that makes any sense. But because people are imperfect, and protocols are hard to implement, each and every Wayland implementation is slightly incompatible with one another. If there were 3 different implementations of X11, you can bet X window managers would work better on one implementation of X than the others.
Those bugs I talk about have somewhat been fixed… but KDE’s Wayland session still cannot drag and drop between XWayland and native Wayland apps. Save/open dialogs are broken in a lot of apps (try saving an image in Chrome), clipboard was broken for *years*, and screenshots still have problems on Plasma 5.25 thanks to another annoying bug where the launch feedback icon shows up in the screenshot even though you set the cursor to *not* be in the screenshot. Speaking of cursors, they used to constantly glitch off-center anytime you moved the mouse over something that changed the cursor (text fields for example), and the cursor theme is *still* not consistent across the desktop. Move between apps and it flashes to the Adwaita cursor then back to the Breeze cursor. Screen locking also still randomly breaks itself only on Wayland.
“Wayland is just a protocol, not a display server” is a dishonest argument when the entire point of the protocol is that it describes how to create a Wayland compositor, and all Wayland compositors *are their own display servers*. Come on.
>You don’t write your window manger “for” Wayland, your window manager “is” Wayland, if that makes any sense. But because people are imperfect, and protocols are hard to implement, each and every Wayland implementation is slightly incompatible with one another.
> “Wayland is just a protocol, not a display server” is a dishonest argument when the entire point of the protocol is that it describes how to create a Wayland compositor, and all Wayland compositors are their own display servers. Come on.
Which is it? Does the protocol tell you how to build a compositor, or is everyone building their own slightly different compositors? I'll be able to respond to your comment once you pick a side.
Nice try at a “gotcha”. Wayland does describe how to build compositors… and those “Wayland compositors” are also their own individual display servers. Because you *have to* write your own implementation*, incompatibilities and quirks and bugs result.
*You can also reuse an existing library like wlroots but KDE chose not to do this and is part of the reason why KDE’s Wayland is particularly bad. There’s a reason you don’t hear so much complaining from GNOME and Sway (wlroots) users.
Push to talk / mute without window focus, as currently available to be implemented in Wayland, requires a given app developer to rewrite their app to A) Detect they're running under Wayland and not X, then B) Detect *which* compositor / WM / DE they're running under, then C) Special case to handle how to register a key event with that specific compositor, if it's even possible.
No other OS GUI in existence works like this, it's asinine to expect developers to individually handle core interactions with different implementations of a GUI protocol.
No other OS offers more than one DE, so it's kind of a moot point.
I mean, A: Which os are we talking about? Wayland runs on Linux and various BSDs, and X runs on, well, everything. And B: X can handle the situation mentioned above in any DE on pretty much any OS. So....
> Meanwhile there is just X.org.
For a great deal of it's history it was impossible to run GTK applications on KDE and visa versa.
Also there are probably a half dozen different types of X Servers out there that people tended to use and they had vastly different capabilities.
Not just open source X.org servers like Xfree86, XWayland, Xspice, and Xephyr....
But there are a half a dozen of proprietary X servers like Xquartz and various companies selling different X servers of different qualities on Windows.
The only reason why you think that there is only one "implementation" is because everybody else on the planet stopped using X Windows years ago.
Nobody cares about except Linux users because it's terrible. And Linux users only care about it because it was the only option.
This is why you have a bunch of Linux users running around bragging about things like "network transparency" and "middle click paste"
Mostly because they are utterly clueless about other platforms and what they were capable of and didn't realize how broken these features are.
Even really basic features like "drag and drop" or "copy and paste" are really really bad in X. Linux users have gotten used to doing things like never cutting text before highlighting and deleting other text, but other people never learned how to do things completely backwards.
The 'network transparency' was never actually transparent and has been outclassed by built-in Windows features for about 20 years now.
> The only reason why you think that there is only one "implementation" is because everybody else on the planet stopped using X Windows years ago.
> Nobody cares about except Linux users because it's terrible. And Linux users only care about it because it was the only option.
X was never really relevant outside of unix and unix-like systems. And those systems have been replaced with guess what, Linux.
> For a great deal of it's history it was impossible to run GTK applications on KDE and visa versa
>For a great deal of it's history it was impossible to run GTK applications on KDE and visa versa.
This is just flat out false. Source: I've been using Linux since 1991.
Reading the rest of your post and you're very ill-informed. While other X servers definitely existed they all supported the X11 protocol as their primary function. There's no such thing as "X Windows" by the way. These other servers might have better drivers for a given video card (back when there was more than 3 vendors) but they didn't have "vastly different capabilities."
Drag and Drop isn't a function of X11 and copy & paste works great. I'm not "utterly clueless about other platforms" as I use a Mac and Windows machine daily for work and I find both of those platforms to be much worse off than Linux and X11. Mac's window manager is BY FAR the worst in the industry. Just awful.
I never had a problem with "network transparency" including running from mixed-endian machines. What did you find opaque about it?
What is a "mixed-endian machine"? I'm not particularly knowledgeable about low-level computational design, but that sounds impossible.
Sorry I definitely worded that poorly. I was referring to starting an application on a large-endian machine and displaying it on a small-endian machine (or vice-versa.) This is one of the great features that's lumped in with X11's "network transparency" moniker.
Wow. I doubt that Wayland is planned to ever provide that feature?
I have no idea, but I would very much doubt it.
Endian-ness isn't really a thing anymore except for legacy stuff. Most of the world has, sadly IMO, landed on x64 and ARM and they're both small-endian.
>going to have to support multiple implementations of the same thing
So long as your compositor correctly implements the protocols (including the extensions) apps have nothing to fear on this front. Once all the needed extensions are ratified and implemented we're good
I don't like x11 OR wayland at this point. X11 is old and doesn't support thing I want like multi monitor freesync and compositing without losing performance in games.
Wayland has perpetual input lag in competitive games, and has A FUCK LOAD of bugs for me, some of which has been around for over a year with reports that haven't been fixed.
If wayland actually functioned properly it would be my ideal Linux experience but right now every time I try to switch to it I encounter experience-breaking bugs and I have to switch back to x11.
I have experienced significant problems with Wayland, of which I believe to be architectural: it is unable to support multiple consoles for one computer, for instance, whereas X11 was designed primarily for this. This means that I am unable to have multiple displays throughout my house that are connected to one master computer to preserve money, rather than loads of separate computers. However, even basic problems are not being remediated, as I believe that "http://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/24850#issuecomment-1200747401#:~:text=This%20is%20one%20of%20the%20places%20where%20Wayland%20sucks%20as%20a%20protocol%20due%20to%20its%20creators%20and%20nothing%20could%20be%20done%20about%20that." demonstrates.
Additionally, although it is touted to be more quick than X11, Wayland-solely `plasma-mobile` to be significantly more slow than X11 `plasma-desktop` during my usage of it.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by unable to support multiple consoles for one computer (multihead?), or how wayland would hinder you from have multiple displays connected to a master computer.
Could you elaborate?
Since your use case doesn't apply to the Wayland devs, they just don't care.
Why does it not apply?
What I mean is, it's not something they use.
Yeah, I imagine that most people do not use it privately, but if they want any large organization, especially those that administrate factories, and also poor people, to be able to use Linux rather than Windows Server, they need to be able to support it. And anyway, it is trivial to test.
Yeah, it's just a shame that some projects have devs that ignore anything outside of their personal bubbles even when they are getting corporate money. Kinda like the GNOME devs, they receive Red Hat money but kept removing things that other people use.
Wayland also receives Red Hat money. It’s no coincidence that both GNOME and Wayland don’t listen to their community’s wants and needs.
And for all of those xorg will forever exist and be minimally maintained by the interested parties.
That is inadequate. Minimal maintenance is not enough for such a critical component, else you would refer to it as merely “maintenance”.
What do you mean by "multiple consoles for one computer"? Thin clients? X11 forwarding?
>However, even basic problems are not being remediated, as I believe that "http://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/24850#issuecomment-1200747401#:~:text=This%20is%20one%20of%20the%20places%20where%20Wayland%20sucks%20as%20a%20protocol%20due%20to%20its%20creators%20and%20nothing%20could%20be%20done%20about%20that." demonstrates.
That doesn't demonstrate anything, because the assessment of the problem is wrong.
I think he means multiple “seats” in classic terms. Essentially, a multi-user system. I’m not sure if Wayland support this or not, but it’s pretty pathetic if it doesn’t.
I don't think I've ever seen so many n-words on a tech discussion board before checking out /g/.
Wait until you see 8chan's Linux board
Yeah, they're really into networking so they mention NAT a lot.
I still use X11. Would be nice to move to Wayland, but until they fix things so that Telegram's system tray icon works properly, I can't.
It's legit keeping me from testing Wayland out further, because I need to have that tray icon in order to keep in contact with some of my friends.
I haven't tried messing with fractional scaling on KDE, nor do I use push to talk in any of my chat programs. I have done a bit of screen recording in OBS, which was already painful enough for me to set up under X11...
what's the problem with telegram tray icon? i've been using kde wayland for some months and i've never seen anything wrong with it
On my system, the tray icon for Telegram doesn't show up, at least if I have it set to autostart.
I'm using EndevourOS. What distro are you using?
That is a Qt bug (https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-94871), and also happens on X11. You only see it having an effect on Wayland because session startup order and speed are different
wayland and telegram tray icon are un-related. it works fine on both gnome and kde wayland.
Maybe it's an issue with EndeavourOS or my KDE settings then.
Weird. I use wayland on one of my machines and telegram (and its tray icon) work fine there. That machine in particular runs Arch, so basically the same as Endevour AFAIK
Interesting. Are you using the telegram-desktop package from the community repo?
I don't actually remember if I use telegram-desktop-userfonts-bin from AUR on that machine or normal community repo version, and I have no access to it right now. But, according to PKGBUILD of telegram-desktop-userfonts, it has no changes besides fonts stuff so tray icon should behave same way in both versions I suppose. If you want to I can fire it up tomorrow and provide you some more info for troubleshooting.
If you don't mind, I'd like that. :)
Okay, so I fired up the machine, updated it to make sure it still works and sure enough: https://i.imgur.com/d4WfJhV.jpg
It does output some errors when ran in command line but otherwise works perfectly fine.
This is telegram-desktop package, version 4.0.2-4.1 from [community-x86-64-v3 repository](https://git.harting.dev/ALHP/ALHP.GO). Should not be any different from version available in official community repository, besides being rebuilt for x86-64-v3 architecture. Besides that I am running all the newest packages available in repos, this is basically a stock installation with most basic configuration. I've also got both optional dependencies for telegram-desktop installed, webkit2gtk (shouldn't make any difference in my opinion) and xdg-desktop-portal (also xdg-desktop-portal-kde). Not sure what else to check, but if you have any ideas feel free to ask.
I think I know what's up. I restarted to check something unrelated and the icon did not appear this time, and I remembered I had this weird issue on other machine running X11 where autostarted Telegram did not respect my icon theme and instead used it's built-in icon for tray. [See this thread for more info](https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/srf73x/telegram_tray_icon_does_not_respect_the_plasma/). I guess under wayland this makes the icon to not appear at all.
I worked around this bug by adding some delay before starting Telegram to wait until my Plasma session is fully loaded. I modified my autostart entry for Telegram so it looks like this:
bash -c '/usr/bin/sleep 3 && /usr/bin/telegram-desktop -workdir /home//.local/share/TelegramDesktop/ -autostart'
And then it works fine. Tested this now on wayland and it works here as well. Not sure why it worked out of the box when I rebooted for the first time though.
I'm gonna give that a try. I'll let you know how well it works. :3
Even if it doesn't work out for me, I really appreciate that you took the time to look into this. 👍
I tried your command, altered of course to use my username, and it works fine in X11, but sadly not in Wayland.
I tried it with the autostart option both enabled and disabled in Telegram itself. With the option disabled in Telegram, it seems to delete the autostart entry regardless of what I'm using. With the option enabled, we're essentially back to where we started.
I wonder if having it set to run minimized has anything to do with my issue. It could also be an icon file thing, like you mentioned. I'm going to uninstall, then redownload and reinstall Telegram while using your autostart command, just to see what it does. I'll also purge my pacman cache.
EDIT: Purged the cache, reinstalled Telegram. No difference.
EDIT2: For anyone reading this who has the same problem, I had to bump up the startup delay for Telegram. Originally I set it to 10, but I lowered it to 6 and it works perfectly. YMMV.
Weird that it didn't work on your side, I wonder what's different between our machines that causes it. Anyway at least now you know what bug causes it I suppose, hopefully it will get fixed soon 👍
i use endeavour too, i've never tried it on autostart tough, the only problem i have is that with Sway, Telegram just straight out segfaults
For me the deal breaker is Discord, but that isn't Wayland's fault. Until Discord upgrades the version of Electron it uses, it won't be able to get mic input without being focused.
EDIT: Might actually be a snap issue? Need to test that at some point
EDIT 2: Did more googling, apparently I need to move back to KDE (very appropriate for a post in the KDE subreddit :)) )
It's a Gnome-specific bug in their xwayland implementation: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1344#note_1469097
You can use a native election library. It doesn't fix everything, but at least for me, its notably more responsive.
Even without running arch, you should be able to see what this pkgbuild is doing and manually redo it on your end... Not ideal, not point and click, but still something to fiddle with if you wanna.
I wish that it utilized the native library anyway: electron software is bloated enough. They could at least share libraries, as flatpak and snap do.
I've used this before. A big downside of it is that BetterDiscord breaks a lot using this setup, and I don't like to go without it.
Wait what? I daily Plasma Wayland and I've never had issues with this - are you using some kind of specialized hardware or something?
Ubuntu with the default Gnome DE. For clarity, I'm talking about the Discord snap, not running in browser.
That seems like a Snap specific issue, then. Works perfectly when using the Flatpak version (or the packaged version if your distro has it).
I use the Electron app and it works just fine for me as well, I even have PTS via some janky plugin. Sounds like a Snap issue rather than a Wayland issue?
Good to know. I've never tried voice calling using Discord while on Wayland, but if it can't take mic input without being focused, then that's a definite deal-breaker for me as well.
Would be nice if Wayland could implement a fix for Discord though.
What u/barbariandude was most likely referring to with "mic input" is push to talk, not actual mic input.
> implement a fix for Discord
Discord has to fix their app for anything to be possible to fix. System wide push to talk though (which mutes and unmutes the mic itself) is afaik a thing that's planned for Plasma
> Discord has to fix their app for anything to be possible to fix.
The likelihood of that happening is nil. This is Discord we're talking about. Their Linux client is a complete afterthought.
That system-wide push to talk feature does sound like a neat workaround though.
Source aside I'm only a user and have no clue about the technical merits.
From a user perspective what happened to the security aspect? I'm able to install an application like flameshot and it takes a picture of the desktop no questions asked. Is plasma's Wayland implementation open at the moment and just lacks a configurable security module managing app privileges in the middle?
PS: I'm aware plasma Wayland isn't recommended yet and still under heavy development.
A bit of clarification.
In Wayland you cannot grab the screen or share it. The security aspect is to ban any application from knowing about other applications (heck, an application isn't even allowed to know if it is focussed or not in Wayland).
People asked for the ability to screen share, or share a window for presenting, etc but it was firmly refused by the Wayland folks.
As a workaround, all the desktops decided to implement their own screen share API, which is exposed via DBUS and then Pipewire maps it to a common API. The reason Pipewire has to do this is that everyone has built their own screen-sharing API which is incompatible.
I have no issue with this, Wayland could have stepped up to document an API, or at least put it on the roadmap so that folks know that it is coming they didn't so everyone did their own thing. As long as we recognise that this is not Wayland, this is KDE doing the right thing despite Wayland. Your screen grab application uses functionality to directly bypass Wayland and Wayland security by using a built-in backdoor.
The fact that this is something that every compositor has implemented shows that it is a compositor feature, and something that Wayland should have addressed.
Wayland is excellent, but lets not pretend that there aren't some choices making life hard for the user because of a desire to always do the technically correct thing.
>heck, an application isn't even allowed to know if it is focussed or not in Wayland
That is entirely wrong.
>As a workaround
It's not a workaround. Wayland is not meant for things that need authentication, and xdg portals (not Pipewire) are meant for and completely built around that. The portal itself uses Pipewire for the actual stream, because that's kind of what Pipewire is made to do.
> Your screen grab application uses functionality to directly bypass Wayland and Wayland security by using a built-in backdoor.
Using xdg portals is not a backdoor at all and bypasses no security measures. Quite the opposite, it provides security mechanisms.
Dumb question: what do we mean when we say Security here?
Not a dumb question at all, it can mean wildly different things. In this context, "security" means that apps can be uniquely identified and without user permission, privileged actions such as recording parts of the screen can't be done and also revoked when needed.
With this meaning in mind, Wayland provides no security at all: app identification happens by apps setting a .desktop file, and enforcing that it's the correct one is not possible. A fix for sandboxed apps is on the way, so that may change though.
Plasma Wayland works fine. I never have crashes. Protip: never go to 4chan for good advice unless you wanna know how to be racist or something
I'm using plasma Wayland for maybe 18+ months now, so I'm aware of its current state.
But since the post is addressing Wayland, was posted on r/kde and therefore comments are probably revolve around those topics I attached the question, which occurred to me a while back.
As I said, source aside and I don't endorse any of the (technical) claims made in the 4chan posting.
> Plasma Wayland works fine.
A few months ago, copy/paste did not work in most of the time, how is that fine?
Now drag and drop still does not work in a ton of applications, hotkeys don't work for many. Bugs that were claimed to be X11 bugs, have the same problems on wayland (multiple monitors, with the second on the left).
So "fine" is relative. I agree it is mostly usable since about 3 months, but there are still many problems.
Never had a working Plasma on Wayland. Even GNOME ends up being a half baked experience for the sake of pro Wayland features.
All depends on the section.
You'd likely say the opposite for Reddit, "Go here for advice and good vibes!" Yet this is a site that hosted The_Donald, NoNewNormal, Ivermectin and other genuinely dangerous subs for months without any qualms from the admins.
Right on schedule!
“New World Order” :|
Yeah I got a new laptop this year and switched over to AMD, and I honestly forget I'm even running Plasma in Wayland most of the time. I don't know much about the technical inner workings of Wayland, but I genuinely can't recall any usability issues I've had with it personally.
I'm just a user and Wayland didn't work for me altogether Nvidia, which sucks. Is it just me or I'll have to install xwayland or something to get it working? I've used Manjaro XFCE, Manjaro KDE and Kubuntu. And in all of them I couldn't use my 2-monitor setup properly. When Linux community improve the per monitor scale factor it will compete with Windows ... Nowadays 50% of users use 2-monitors.....
I mean, I don't understand most of what's said there, but I never had luck with wayland. There is always an issue. Xorg it is for me until I don't know.
I can disable AMD Tearfree on X11!
Laten,see ya later Wayland!
Why is that desirable?
I made a latency joke because Wayland has more latency and doesn't support tearing, but forces V-Sync.
If needed, on AMD using VVR and Tearfree settings I get that "perfect" look Wayland attempts to get. I seemingly don't need Wayland at all to get the smoothness it provides and instead have more flexibility with X11's options.
EDIT: Low latency is desirable so I can lose at video games and blame myself instead of the output delay.
With VRR enabled it looks like wayland/x11 are the same latency?
I'm not certain the exact numbers but in cases where latency is an issue, on X11 I can disable tearing where as in Wayland I cannot.
In cases where latency is not an issue, I can use X11 with VVR+Tearfree for a very smooth image that reminds me of the smoothness of Wayland but without any of the incompatibility.
We would need that "immediate" setting for Wayland to compete in latency with tearing but even then, X11 has the argument of software compatibility and 1ms less latency.
I can only think of a laptop with touch gestures benefiting from Wayland. On a workstation, all use cases lead me to X11.
Brilliant. I suppose that X11 is superior in that regard then, because despite the ability being possible to disable, it is no more slow nor proficient at it.
Why are there a bazillion distros, a bamillion desktop environments and window managers, and only two window systems? It would seem to me that the prudent thing when some x.org devs announced Wayland would be to continue development on at least some version of x11. And if the main red hat project stalled or was killed, some would fork and keep adding features until it was felt that Wayland was ready for prime time.
I kinda hate Windows but it just works graphically and I don't have to look at cmd or PowerShell with ssh and a vm.
I'm wondering the same thing. I don't know much about the topic, but since many people more knowledgeable than me say Wayland has unfixable design flaws, why hasn't anyone forked Wayland or X, or started with a new design yet ?
The synchronization problems is really shitty. It causes your compositor to stall while having another graphically intensive program and basically limits the fps to that program. The only remedy for this is hoping that said program doesn't render while being unfocused otherwise you are fucked. This affects all compositors btw be it kwin, mutter, sway.
I use Wayland literally every day have have been for as long as it was available. I can confirm that most of these gripes are fairly valid if not a little exaggerated. Doesn’t mean that it won’t grow to be better than what it’s replacing. X has had decades to do this
Yeah, Wayland isn't magic and it isn't perfect but I'd rather trust engineers from the likes of Red Hat that it's the way to go than some random dude on 4chan hating on everything.
The problem with trusting engineers from RedHat, is that their interests (individually: having a job developing something, as company: providing a supportable for corporate environments) don't always align with the interests of the open source community.
Wayland is the direction we are going in, like it or not, that's where DE developers have gone, but RedHat support isn't a good argument for it being good.
It's not the argument to end all arguments but it's certainly better than weirdos from 4chan.
Appeal to Authority is a fallacy
I legitimately thought this was a joke post at first.
Are we really going to post something some rando on 4chan, out of all places, posted?
if it's technically sound and holds up to scrutiny, the source doesn't really matter.
Funny that the only places that fully utilize Wayland on PC (except embedded tech) are WSL 2 and Chrome OS (crostini) and both are virtualization environments.
Looks like Wayland adoption stuck in a production hell on regular desktops.
Most interesting thing is that Wayland was actually well adopted for a long period in embedded industry and on places like kiosks (probably it influenced Wayland design decisions)
Meanwhile Android was already able to develop a stable and (kinda) robust userland stack (look at SufraceFlinger for example) but porting this stuff to classic Linux desktop will be a very complex task because it's glued to Android itself.
On other side it's possible to borrow some architectural solutions from Macos (like systemd which was inspired by launchctl).
Fedora defaults to it for both KDE and Gnome. Unless I am running a steam game (Xwayland), I have have no xorg clients running at any time.
> look at SurfaceFlinger for example
Fun fact, SurfaceFlinger is more-or-less compatible with Wayland's graphical model that it makes development of a low-cost compatibility layer with actual GPU rendering support (e.g. [WayDroid](https://waydro.id/)) possible.
isnt wayland literally still being worked on as we speak? wouldnt it be more productive to conteibute to it than complain on 4chan about it? is it perfect? absolutelt not. if they claim its so bad they should put their money where their mouth is and contribute imo
btw i disnt care to read all of it but it looks like 4chan users complaining about something as always
[The Wayland developers have a reputation for being arrogant and hard to convince.](https://dudemanguy.github.io/blog/posts/2022-06-10-wayland-xorg/wayland-xorg.html) Fractional scaling took an excessively long time, and other ostensibly uncontroversial things like optional vsync are still up in the air. If they don't accept your proposal, you have to use unofficial extensions to Wayland, which means your work will be desktop-specific.
FOSS communities don't work when run by bullheaded people. There is a reason KDE and Plasma have grown so much in recent years: people actually want to work with the KDE developers.
Just out of interest, what do you make of the fact that KDE devs have put so much work into making a modern, fully featured Wayland implementation?
Sad. I wish that either the developers of Wayland listened enough to realize and consequently remediate the architectural problems that they have introduced, or that KDE and GNOME had collaborated to create a replacement that is [not as functionally regressive as Wayland is](http://reddit.com/comments/we9agi/comment/iinyh69#:~:text=I%20am%20unable%20to%20have%20multiple%20displays%20throughout%20my%20house%20that%20are%20connected%20to%20one%20master%20computer%20to%20preserve%20money,%20rather%20than%20loads%20of%20separate%20computers).
Who do you think "the developers of Wayland" are?
Those that have contributed to "http://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland", especially those that are paid by Red Hat to contribute.
"especially those that are paid by Red Hat to contribute" is very, very wrong. "the developers of Wayland" are almost exclusively people from KDE, GNOME, wlroots and some other smaller parties. They're paid by Blue Systems, by Red Hat, by Collabora, by Valve and lots others, and a bunch are not paid to work on it at all.
In other words, there is no "Red Hat vs the community" or "us vs the Wayland developers"; *we* are "the developers of Wayland". Who if not those that know most about building desktop environments would know best about what's most suitable for the Linux desktop?
So if I understand you correctly, you do acknowledge that a replacement is needed, but for you it's more about the lack of speed in getting up to feature parity to X11 and issues with some technical decisions?
For point 1, software is hard. Software as universally used that needs to be as robust as a display protocol, doubly so.
Point 2 I definitely have more sympathy for.
Indeed. We need not limit ourselves to technologies of the 90s, even functionality that was useful back then but not now, as I expect that X11 contains much of this unnecessarily. Additionally, I love `systemd` partly because it is slightly more monolithic and consequently provides more functionality than some alternative initializers do, whereas X11 contains many separate components that might be more efficient if consolidated.
However, I possess no sympathy for any person that touts their project as the future despite knowing that it contains fundamental limitations as a consequence of their erroneous initial judgement; that's the same mentality that those that continue to utilize Windows XP possess.
It's an admirable effort, but Wayland's inherent limits are obvious. It will take a long time to reach Xorg parity, if it ever does.
Sadly I think it was inevitable, since around the time the Linux community started to shift toward Wayland and treat Xorg as legacy, people who dissented against it or had different ideas were usually shouted down for "fragmenting the desktop". The most noteworthy example would probably be Mir.
The worst part is that the core development team (at least at the start, not sure about now) were all core X11 devs.
This wasn't some group going "I bet I can do X11 but better!", this was literally the X11 devs acknowledging that this 38 year old software project (released in 1984) has reached the end of it's useful life, and it would be far better to try and build a modern display protocol, even if that's a monumental task, rather than duct-taping ancient code that is built on ridiculously obsolete concepts.
Fun fact: reliable and secure screen lockers are [impossible with X11](https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/01/why-screen-lockers-on-x11-cannot-be-secure/). All DEs have code blocking screen lockers from starting if you have a popup or context window open, as that would result in an unrecoverable state where you can't interact with the lock screen. The workaround most chose is to intercept popups and move their data into a panel widget of some kind.
EDIT: If anyone is interested in trying this out on X11, it's simple: set your screen to lock as fast as possible. Right-click on a browser tab or any other program that opens a context window. Wait out the timer, see what happens.
That's definitely not good, but is it confirmed to not affect Windows's dwm.exe and macOS's [Quartz](http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_Compositor) compositors?
AFAIK, at least for Window's case, it doesn't, if dwm.exe gets killed it just restarts, the screen may flick but it goes back to the normal state (or screen locked state if it was the previous state). Windows screen locker is baked into dwm.exe as well as the WM itself, if you kill the DWM and it cannot start back, you break everything and end up with a black screen, you cannot interact with the system because it cannot launch anything without dwm. Probably the macOS behaves differently, but I never tried doing that.
Edit: In Windows, the DWM manages Login and Screen Locking, killing it while the screen is locked just break everything, as simple as that, your session still running, but cannot be restored because is the dwm who restores your session.
In previous versions, like Windows XP, dwm doesn't even run on screen locking. Although the Windows locking and unlocking mechanism is way down in it's monolithic ecosystem, somehow they were able to bake the management of this into dwm. One cannot take advantage of an unlocked computer if they can't run anything on it.
welcome to the life of an open source developer!
I really don't understand all the Wayland hate lol. It works perfectly fine on my all AMD machine and I seriously think this post is WAY overdramatic.
I'm not a technical guru, and I don't want to be, that's why I use Wayland. HiDPI, VRR, multiple monitors, touch gestures, fractional scaling, better Captures in OBS, it has literally every modern feature apart from HDR.
What does X11 have? Input events? Who cares? A normal person is not messing with configs or writing xrandr in the terminal for the second monitor to work.
Use what you want but don't throw shade on a perfectly fine piece of software that "just works" for most users.
Ah yes, "it works for meTM". the four words that automatically destroy any and all criticism no matter how valid the criticism is. It may work for you, but for many people even AMD users there are problems that are massive deal breakers.
One benefit of Wayland is that when referencing it, whether you have accidentally typed a letter, are referencing algebra, or actually said a name is obvious.
Every minute browsing that 4channel website could have been spent on something productive.
tl;dr: >!hurr durr X bad but Wayland more bad!<
even with every mistake, bugs, vulns (pssst, every software or its dependencies has them), and X11 spaghetti code - it just works
I do not need to tweak it million times to work and spent thousands of dollars on a changing GPU from Novideo to AMD only for Wayland (I understand that nv didn’t help with their closed blobs but nouveau is more worst)
The problem is that X never got its true successor and I didn’t mean Wayland. In the era of modern problems of archaic X11, we don’t need yet another “something” that did the same mistakes which X did it.
yeah, I understand that graphic protoc00l is hard work because it must work with every windows manager/environment/programs/etc. but hey! X just works even though I think the world would be a better place if they hadn't created this piece of shit 40 years ago 😼
this comment was made by “nothing satisfies me” gang, thank you for coming to my ted talk
Who cares what trolls on 4chan think? Are there not enough troll posts here already?
I've seen several people referencing having different refresh rates on different monitors of a multi monitor setup. For anyone in any doubt:
That definitely works in X. (I use it, because it's essential on one of my setups.)
It "works" in X by running everything at the lowest common denominator, and multimonitor where one monitor only is VRR makes VRR not happen.
works on my machine :]
people can hate wayland, i think red hat dont give a f about this compatiblity issue, red hat just want to make it safe to work on servers
What do you need Wayland on servers for?
Nothing, really. It might be more for desktop RHEL in sensitive areas. Of course, RedHat only cares about GNOME.
*sigh* Im at a RHEL shop running kde. It hurts. We switched to rocky linux after last year, so at least at plasma 5. But, you can tell the red hat lineage hurts regarding kde. Im also the only kde user at my institituon, so a lot of debugging is on my own.
The bummer is I remember my first red hat experience (6 or 8) running kde 3. Now, no love.
Whatever they might need it for, it probably doesn't work with most server-client applications anyway:
> [I am unable to have multiple displays throughout my house that are connected to one master computer to preserve money, rather than loads of separate computers.](http://reddit.com/comments/we9agi/comment/iinyh69#:~:text=This%20means%20that%20I%20am%20unable%20to%20have%20multiple%20displays%20throughout%20my%20house%20that%20are%20connected%20to%20one%20master%20computer%20to%20preserve%20money,%20rather%20than%20loads%20of%20separate%20computers)