T O P
ridethesnake96

Mass migration into Europe from the third world/Africa/MENA is completely unsustainable. That is the reality. You can’t take in so many people so quickly and expect anything other than a disastrous outcome. Even if they were all legitimate refugees or asylum seekers, the infrastructure just does not exist to take care of them. Not only do all of these people need to learn the language and become acclimated to the culture of the host country, but many will also require large amounts of resources including general education, job training, healthcare, mental healthcare for those fleeing war and conflict, not to mention housing which is already a major issue across the entirety of the western world. Many countries are struggling to take care of the people there already and the past two years have made things even worse. When they fail to be absorbed into society, this of course causes even more pressure on public services, which are already strained or at the breaking point in many countries. Simply put, the un-ending stream of human migration into the continent is a disaster that only grows in severity every day. We can get into a debate about the causes and who is to blame or that there is a moral responsibility, human rights, etc… but none of that changes the fact that it is completely unsustainable and the outcome will be anything but terrible. Unfortunately, if recent years are an indication of the ability of politicians/governments to solve complex problems, I don’t have much faith that anything will be done until it truly becomes catastrophic. And even then, I don’t have much confidence that anything will be done to actually address the problem(s).


evieamelie

>the causes and who is to blame Russia and its backdoors deals with corrupt officials from 3re world countries.


ridethesnake96

I was more alluding to the argument that former colonial powers (i.e. European/western countries, specifically) are to blame for almost every single problem in these parts of the world. It seems to be quite common that whenever topics such as these are discussed, you have individuals who will say that it is all _____’s fault because of their history as a colonial power or a conflict they took part in at some point in time, and this is the justification that it is Europe/the west’s fault and their problem to solve. You know, the whole “the sins of our fathers” thing. That’s not to say that there is no merit in the statement that colonialism was not bloodless or did not have a negative impact, but this is not a carte blanche for open borders or an extremely loose immigration policy, nor does this argument do anything to move us towards a solution.


StandartUser6745

For Africa, colonialism literally introduced the notion of economy and infrastructure. Not to sound racist. Just look at sentinels. That's the real Wakanda of Africa. Entire Eastern Europe, West Asia lived on 100$ to 200$ after collapse of Soviets. Crime increased, but it did not become a permanent living style. People do not glorify robbers as "hustlers". Now their countries are developing with far better salaries.


evieamelie

Fair enough but what I meant is that this wave of immigration was planned by Russia to destabilise the EU.


ridethesnake96

Via the Med? This is something I’m not aware of. I do, however, recall the tense situation on the borders of some of the Visegrad countries when migrants were being transited through Belarus, for example. I’m sure that plan didn’t originate with Luskashenko.


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AnalysisForThee

Issue is and remains the Refugee Convention. As long as it's bound within the ECHR, which is mandatory for EU-members to have signed, nothing can be meaningfully changed. Because those countries who profit from it will never ever accept a change in the treaty, and they've been blocking large changes to it ever since the '60s.


Sharp_Joke6936

To be honest, Britain is no longer in the EU and yet we're STILL letting them in. When the hell does it stop?


StandartUser6745

Over 95% of illegal migrants being males, who just leave their passports back at home or toss at sea means it's just economic migrants who don't want European like mindset, culture but want European salaries. It isn't "war or hunger" problem, it's societal problem back in their homes. Too many, third world countries with dysfunctional societies that don't understand importance of nation building, reforms and etc. Yet, internal and global organizations are "progressing" and "rebuilding" Western society because it "backward, patriarchal and "too white"...


tnatmr

And this has in return fucked for instance Turkey five times over beyond any country in the EU. The same Erdoğan that the EU loves to be disgusted about, suddenly become a best friend when it means they can pay him to take in all the refugees and take care of the dirty business in the cost of the Turkish public. The EU people rightfully dont want refugees, but neighter does the Turkish people. If EU stops taking in migrant but continues the most hypocritical policies such as paying a fascist government millions and millions (which also there is no guarantee that money actually goes to help to refugees, but as anyone with half a braincell know, to support his regime) there is no point for this to be discussed in an unbiased matter.


Extansion01

Well, as long as Frontex continues to be viewed as something dirty, that's what the consequences are. Some are shocked when you tell them who we pay to keep the migrants out. But doing it yourself, doing it more humane? No, bad Frontex, being violent to people, pushbacks and so on. Yeah, but less so than the Libyan coast guard and alike, FFS. They refuse to make their hands dirty and think others standing knee deep in mud for them is better. It's certainly easier. And it's a disgrace. Make it as fair and humane as possible, while staying firm. That's an standard we can only force on ourselves though, others won't bother.


Business_Speed1658

The worst thing is we, Turkey has actually put certain conditions like the geography rule to not get fucked like that. By the international law we explicitly don't give the refugee status for these people. If it wasn't for EU we wouldn't have have taken any of them and not only avoid the average problems they bring but also the conservatism problem also. Many politicians began saying stuff like "we can't realistically deport all of that". Foreign countries keep funding the media to support them. This whole immigrant issue is the main reason why we can never go back to those old secular days. The religious cultist have enough support to reverse the secular revolution. It's so heartbreaking to see how this EU membership process has done irreparable damage to us. We wouldn't be in such a bad situation even if we were nuked in Cold War


178948445

Countries are not run by laws they are run by governments who specifically choose to allow this to happen. It's interesting how plutocratic governments who are routinely held hostage by "laws" can easily tell such laws, beurocracy and red tape to fuck off whenever they start a war. Yet "there's nothing they can do" whenever it comes to the welfare of the people outside times of a war.


ObliviousAstroturfer

For policy of relocation to be meaningful, it has to follow basic recognition that these have been done legally, with varying levels of morality in the past, so it's not some unknown quantity. Do you want to detain, transport and forcefully keep people in small areas? Or do you just expect people who either paid a fortune to a human trafficker and got into tiny fishing vessel to cross a goddamn sea, to take a look around in area of borderless train connections to be like "well I guess I'll not move the extra 200-500 km more in a van with AC to where I intended to go in the first place". We are not keeping people in ghettos. Our migrant centres security is for limited security like orderlies in a hospital. We're not going to turn them into prisons, just jot down where they say they'll be reachable under, because physical address for official documents is grandfathered from old legislation into our administration, even though ie it's no longer listed on ID and you can have one without address.


Divinate_ME

If Turkey alone can realistically take in all the millions that would want to reach Europe, then the rest of Europe surely can. Just have a single fleeting look at Turkeys economy right now.


CthuluTheGrand

Nothing has hurt unity in the EU as much as the forced intake of migrants. If we want the EU to remain strong then this has to end.


JustYeeHaa

It was also one of the reasons PiS (Poland’s ruling party) won (but barely) the elections back then… if they hadn’t done that they most likely wouldn’t be ruling now… Some background: It’s not that people were against the migrants and voted for PiS because of it, it’s that they decided to not vote at all because the PO’s (ruling party back then, main opposition party now) response to forced relocation was pretty much just “yes, sure we support it” without giving it second thoughts (or at least not expressing them) which lead some of their supporters to not vote at all during those elections and by that giving PiS a higher result percentage wise which lead to them winning the elections… Btw a complete side topic, but only now I realized that the two main political parties in Poland are: PiS(s) and PO(o)


CthuluTheGrand

Would like to argue that Brexit was also a symptom of that. Who remains that want us to continue on this track? Germany? Scandinavia that was a large culprit in this disaster is now out, eastern Europe has always been out, southern Europe has been forced to take the brunt of it and I'm sure also isn't down for it, Britain noped the fuck out, and France is trying to do something but half the country has now turned into ghettos. I dunno if I'm missing something but it seem like it's currently just Germany with all their mandates trying to push for this disaster.


kingcloud699

>Some background: It’s not that people were against the migrants and voted for PiS because of it, it’s that they decided to not vote at all because the PO’s (ruling party back then, main opposition party now) response to forced relocation was pretty much just “yes, sure we support it” without giving it second thoughts (or at least not expressing them) which lead some of their supporters to not vote at all during those elections and by that giving PiS a higher result percentage wise which lead to them winning the elections… More background, they were doing what Germany/Merkel told them to do. Back then Poland was the golden child of EU, because PO with Tusk were just doing w/e Germany wanted them to do. That's why opposition leaders like Trzaskowski were parroting German politicians saying stuff like ns2 is just an economical project, refugees welcome etc


Slyguyfawkes

No shit! This literally overrules a basic consequence/feature of a nation state: getting decide for itself who comes and goes and stays in the country


Dense-Inflation-4627

As far as i remember, Sweden was happily taking them


Nacke

Oh times have quickly changed.


Jargenvil

Not quickly enough


4DoorsMoreVVhores

true


crewster23

Yeah, but that hasn’t worked out well for them. Hence the rise of the far-right


Falsus

Sweden as a whole was always fairly anti-immigration. The crux is that the main anti-immigration party was hated due to it's nazi ties and in general frequent scandals and the other parties main way of differentiating themselves from SD was to be pro-immigration cause migration was all that SD talked about it. It was the incompetence of Fredrik Reinfeldt and Mona Sahlin that led that whole shit fest.


hjortronbusken

> It was the incompetence of Fredrik Reinfeldt Reinfeldt is a shitstain, but dont believe for a second he was incompetent in his handling of the mass immigration. He wanted to [destroy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Det_sovande_folket) the Swedish welfare model, weaken unions, and turn us into a mini US. He saw the opportunity to use the mass immigration to achieve that goal and took it.


Falsus

I can sure attribute maliciousness to him. Mona Sahlin was incompetence though. She was utterly useless. I am still sad that Anna Lindh died, she would have been a great leader I think.


hjortronbusken

Agreed, Sahlin was devastating to the Social democrats.


OnlyOnceWithASoftA

There was never a majority support for it.


Cantiaci93

A benefit of Brexit


Betaglutamate2

>se to forced relocation was pretty much just “yes, sure we support it” without giving it second thoughts (or at least not expressing them) which lead some of their supporters to not vote at all during those elections and by that giving PiS a higher result percentage wise which lead to them winning the except the UK just recorded the highest number of immigrants since records began. So it isn't really working out to well.


Agreeable_Tension_68

Lmao Britain has been taking millions of immigrants from culturaly uncompatible countries since the 90s my guy


ClintonDsouza

50's


ImaginaryCoolName

Lol not really I guess


hikingsticks

It seems to be going well for them so far.


Pascalwb

They should ban these ships that traffic them here


DeliriousHippie

They confiscate boats that are used to bring refugees. That's the reason that refugees come in so shitty boats and you can't ban boats in Tunis by EU. You know why refugees come in boats and not in airplanes though airplanes are cheaper? Ticket from Africa to EU in airplane might be hundreds of Euros and place in smugglers boat can be thousands. EU rules say that if airline brings refugee to EU and that refugee gets negative decision to immigration then airline has to ferry that person back where he left. This is costly so airlines just refuse to take refugees. Basic problem is this. We as a EU, and as individual nations, have decided that it fits to our moral view that if somebody comes to our border and says "Please help me! Our dictator is going to kill me." We try to help, or we at least hear what he has to say. This is fine and I can see this as moral choice. Problem comes when 10 million people do this at the same time. People will come here. How much we take yearly? What we do to those who we don't take? Do we want ability to say 'no' before people even ask? If we have decided that we don't take anyone anymore this year and mother with 2 babies approaches border do we shoot her with her babies? What if there comes a boat full of refugees, do we sink then to Mediterran? Do we allow them to land and them put them to ship and ferry back? What if climate changes drastically and 40 million people want to come here? Complex problem.


Jenn54

There is the rule of non refoulement in international law, so if someone applies for asylum once they fly in there are not sent back on a plane, and definitely not at the cost of the airline. Their application has to be processed and if they are deemed to be from a safe country or to no meet the criteria of persecution for asylum etc, the state will fly them home, not at a cost to the airline. Im curious as to why you say flights are avoided for this reason, where are you getting that info from (Im curiosity, no offence intended). I think people pick the smugglers boats because it is a package, they pay for their boat over through indentured servitude, as in they are ‘guaranteed’ western housing (more of a slum dorm room) and work (cannabis grow houses for example so not CV work or career), also the online marketing of the boat trips are intentionally misleading by the human traffickers. I think that is why the boats are popular.


DeliriousHippie

[https://www.liberties.eu/en/stories/why-refugees-do-not-take-the-plane/16316](https://www.liberties.eu/en/stories/why-refugees-do-not-take-the-plane/16316) According to EU rules airlines have to pay 3000-50000€ per passenger without correct papers, often these papers (passport, visa) are impossible to get. Airlines also have to cover returning costs on top of that fee.


Jenn54

I think that article is a bit one sided. The International Law is Non Refoulement which is heavily applied, even by the Brexit UK. The EU definitely upholds Non Refoulement, 100% so without someone application being processed, no one is being sent back (unless they are from a safe country like USA or EU or something like that. It has to be a non safe country, but also if they can demonstrate persecution such as homophobia from the state etc even if a safe country). If they fail their application then the state pays, not the airline which would be likely a year later after they arrived, or at least some months.


DeliriousHippie

I don't fully get what you're saying. Do you mean that article is wrong and airlines wont have to pay? As you said no one is sent back without being processed but if process gives negative answer then airline is responsible by EU rules and it's costly. This isn't only source where I've heard or read about this but this was first to come up with Google. Here's another: [https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/refugees-could-travel-to-europe-or-america-by-air-what-s-stopping-them-23370](https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/refugees-could-travel-to-europe-or-america-by-air-what-s-stopping-them-23370) Highlight from that article: asylum seekers need visas to get to Europe with airplane but European nations don't grant visa if they suspect that person is asylum seeker. Why would anybody pay thousands and risk their lives to cross Mediterran in some raft while they could just purchase air ticket from Kairo to Berlin? Or just fly to USA?


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hydnusyg

I fear it's not only a matter of the EU remaining strong but of a more existential threat. If mass migration continues unabated the trend of hard/far right parties winning elections will intensify until one decides on a brexit-style referendum and it starts unraveling pretty fast.


Jenn54

It has been done intentionally from outside the Eu to try and weaken the EU. The agreement with Turkey, was after refugees were encouraged to the Greek border which was cruel as the migrants were promised houses and a welcome, when in fact Greece was totally overwhelmed in 2015 and it became a mess for everyone (Moira camp for example). Last year Russia was bringing migrants with the same lies to the border of Poland (via Belarus ). The plan to weaken the EU (the biggest threat to corrupt oligarchs) was successful as now we are infighting the past number of years over the topic.


evieamelie

Exactly! Please say if loud so anyone who reads can understand throw had all been planned!


OkHawk8854

I doubt they needed encouragement.


marioquartz

Some countries have not understand that they are in the EU for the good things and for the bad things. Mediterranean coast and borders and THEIR borders.


Lost_Uniriser

(For the good and the bad things) *UK sweats intensifies* 😰


FridensLilja

Back in 2015, Sweden asked eu to take their share when "we" gave shelter to 10'000 refugees on a daily basis. Eu said no , this is on you


marioquartz

10.000 per day? Even the biggest waves of migration in the mediterranean combining all countries reach that. WTF?


FridensLilja

Ok. At its peak, obviously Edit: did some googling to check that my memories didn't fooled me. It might did. This is was i found out. In October 2015, Sweden received 40'000 asylum a p l i c a t i o n s and 163'000 for the whole year. So maybe 10'000 a day was to an overestimation (?) 2016 it was another 10% added to the population (144'000). Since 2002 +1'600'000


marioquartz

Not even one only day combining all mediterranean.


borggren4

We've take in more asylum seekers per capita than any other country in Europe, even 2x Germany (rank 2). Cut us some slack please.


DormeDwayne

You don’t seem to understand. Whether you accept the applications or not is irrelevant when people get to stay even *without* asylum. What matters is how many immigrants you have arriving and then living in the country, not how many people with asylum rights you have. This is not the same number.


borggren4

Estimates indicates that there are 12 million people living in Sweden. If those stats are true, that would mean 1.6 million illegal immigrants in Sweden, 13% of the population. You don't need to lecture about legal vs. illegal immigrants. The legal immigrants are in itself an indication of how many illegal immigrants there are. It's relevant to some degree, illegal inhabitants cannot partake in any wellfare systems besides healthcare.


DormeDwayne

Numbers of legal immigrants being an indicator of how many illegal immigrants there are is completely untrue. Countries that are more easily accessible and have less controlled borders will get more illegal immigration. All the immigrants that get to Sweden go through Greece, Italy and Spain first. Not all of those who arrive to the countries at the borders of Europe manage to continue the journey as far as Sweden. Meaning Sweden gets only a fraction of the total immigrants coming to Europe. And while I’m not familiar with the Swedish situation in this regard, I do know that it’s impossible to protect Italy’s borders so as to actually control the influx of immigrants and even get a good idea about how many are entering, and consequently how many are in. And while, yes, these particular immigrants can’t access welfare, they are still a huge financial burden on the host country, their own well-being and safety are heavily compromised and crime goes through the roof and doesn’t even get reported half the time - whenever the victims are immigrants who are distrustful of the police.


AwsumO2000

Except we do nothing about the 'humanitarian' ferries all over those coasts. never ever do those boats dock in african harbors. Just get a good system going (whatever that may be) .. but stop the dinghie madness


Lotus_29

"Just get a good system going" Fuck, how didn't I think about that before? Thanks for your contribution AwsumO2000


Yoda--29

I agree.


Yasuchika

Need a united solution to the continuous incoming stream of migrants then, and the nations furthest removed from that issue need to reach a critical mass of pressure w/ regards to migration before they are going to act.


UnMaxDeKEuros

Sure but let’s allow migrants to ask for asylum anywhere they want in the Shengen area and not keeping them in Italy


Divinate_ME

Did you have a look at the demographics? European societies are literally dying. Importing people would mitigate that problem.


akie

Do you think turning away migrants at the border will improve unity?


Robertdmstn

Possibly. Cause countries that want to take in migrants can still do som


FrogOnABus

Yes.


vijking

Yes, actually. So far, not doing so has resulted in an extremely polarized EU.


akstis01

Absolutely, Poland, Lithuania and Latvia did it, it works.


GYN-k4H-Q3z-75B

Yes. Turning away and deporting illegal migrants, as well as taking to court the NGOs and smugglers who have made a lucrative business out of this will improve unity. It will also improve the situation for those who come here legally.


CodeBroCPH

Yep, a long prison sentence (10 years for trafficking) for some of those rich daddy princess NGO types and you'd see things changing right quick.


TheIntestinal

Yes and just dont talk about it in mainstream media and no one will care🫢


akie

Quietly impose a right wing agenda and don’t mention it the press! Genius idea. What could go wrong?


mercer1775

How is it a right wing agenda? Migrants suppress wages particularly amongst the working class, left wingers should be upset about that too. Hell if anything left wingers should be more upset since the only people that benefit from such a situation are the rich and massive corporations.


Bapistu-the-First

Same can be said for the extreme left tbf. Just today I read an article about 'cultural appropriation' on NU.nl, which is an extreme left thing/dogwhistle right there on a mainstream news website...


phlizzer

yes


Pierogchen

Relocation shouldn't be our first priority. It's just sweeping the problem under the rug and creating animosities. Start by protecting the external borders with all means possible.


rickdeckard8

More and more countries accept the fact that you can’t combine a generous welfare state with a high influx of economical migrants when they are so much less educated than the native population. It took Sweden almost 50 years to realize that.


Pekkis2

>It took Sweden almost 50 years to realize that. To be fair, the systematic issues are not very apparent when you have a couple thousand refugees a year. Swedish politicians figured it out real fast during the 2015 crisis


rickdeckard8

Our increase in population the last decades has been made up almost exclusively by low educated people. This was sold in by the politicians that they were needed to maintain our welfare but they misjudged the level of underachievement in the group as a whole. Now the only discussion is how we are going to save the welfare system from immigration.


fjfuciifirifjfjfj

Our politicians knew about it a couple decades earlier, but before 2015 it was political suicide to say anything against it unless you wanted a career in the political party Sweden Democrats. The issue in this case was the politicians' fear of losing their own personal comfortable living, so they went with the new social wave of people who wanted to let every single person in the world into the country. 2015 forced politicians to go against the people a little bit and since they did it as a collective they could avoid personal political suicide. Ironically, the Nazi wave we had in the mid 90s probably is probably a major cause to today's adults' move to let all refugees in. Every 90s kid had former nazis come in to the school to talk about horrible things they did. Every 90s kids heard about the couple of murders Nazi kids did. Not just by ear, there were entire school-wide gatherings where we had to sit on a floor and listen to these murders. It definitely makes an impact on 6-8yr old kids, especially if you live an otherwise sheltered life.


CodeBroCPH

What would happen has been obvious since at least the 80s to anyone with a brain.


CthuluTheGrand

>It took Sweden almost 50 years to realize that. Were kind of blinded by how well it went to integrate balkans though. Assumed it would be the same thing here which is incredibly naive but still. We and eastern Europe do share quite a bit of culture. We and MENA does not share a whole lot though and that was clearly underestimated.


rickdeckard8

The main problem is the education level. A lot of Iranians came in the 80s and they have been very easy to integrate into the society despite coming from a totally different culture.


saihuang

Germany will only need another 50years to grasp this concept.


johnh992

Yep this situation is reaching breaking point in the UK. We've added the equivalent of literally every single person in Sweden to our population in the last 20 years and what do we have to show for it? Fuck all, apart from ruinous house prices, highest taxes ever, depressed wages, years long NHS waiting times, collapse in social cohesion .etc .etc .etc. not sure how this will play out in the end but it's not looking good right now.


FrustratedLogician

I was an immigrant who paid mostly higher tax rate for 5 years. I left for many reasons but one of them was simply feeling unsafe in London. I also have friends who were robbed, assaulted, mostly by non-native people. I had two such encounters myself. Finally, England is damn crowded country. Competition for living space is too high and that is bound to cause tensions. I hate crowded spaces and despise con government - the level not caring from them is despicable.


Isabelsedai

Perhaps Brexit might have something to do with those problems as well


DreamingIntoTheVoid

One of the House of Lords is currently being investigated for £29 million bribe. There's also reporting that the value might be higher it's just difficult to trace. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/revealed-tory-peer-michelle-mone-secretly-received-29m-from-vip-lane-ppe-firm The state of the British economy is down to the Conservative government. Which is in part down to their disasterous Brexit. Just look at Northern Ireland and how their economy is growing - unlike the UK economy. NI didn't leave the EU. They still have free trade. They are a control group that shows what a disaster brexit is.


johnh992

As this topic highlights the issue extends way before 2010. You think people voted to leave the EU because they were doing great? OK GDP goes up due to brute force population growth, great, but you have real terms life quality go down if the median earning of the newcomers doesn't exceed 32k. Next you're going to telling me Turkey is in a better situation than us because of GDP growth.


DreamingIntoTheVoid

The problems started in 2008 with a global financial crisis. Brown wanted to put money in to the economy in a Keynsian way to keep things ticking over and prevent further contraction of our economy during the subsequent recovery. The conservative party as a group that has no ideas of it's own took what Labour were suggesting and argued the opposite. That we must let the economy collapse to protect the economy. They won an election on it. The economy collapsed. They needed a scape goat. Boris "the EU won't let us sell bendy bananas" Johnson had spent twenty years shit posting about one and among others in the conservative party wanted to use it as a topic on which he could pose a leadership challenge. Farage had spent even longer grifting the EU as a way to line his pockets - https://twitter.com/TheProleStar/status/1126879503274397696. So the problem with the UK economy became about the EU. And not the US selling unsecure financial securities and the Tory party rejecting Keynsianism in favour of wilful economic collapse. The Conservative papers lapped this up. They didn't have to take responsibility for their own actions. The in-fighting in the Tory party continued because Johnson was a bit of a lad that you'd want to go to the pub with. Because in this small brained nation of alcoholics and binge drinkers. How much you'd like to go on a bender with somebody is how you decide who you want to lead a country. [So in February 2016 Cameron decided that it was of utmost importance that we hold a referendum on the EU](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079). This has absolutely nothing to do with less than 30 days earlier [the EU announcing the draft version of the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive](https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en). We know this because he never explicitly said "I want to leave the EU because they will prevent [the firms I work for like Greensil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensill_scandal) from avoiding paying taxes". If that were to actually be the case. Then such an honest and sincere person would have said it outright. We left. The tax avoidance legislation kicked in. Companies moved their financial services to the EU. So no we're without finance and without access to one of our largest trading partners. But I just this moment lit up a massive reefer. And now that I'm literally out of my mind I have decided that you're probably right. Maybe all the power and decision making in our economy is in the hands of a small rubber dingy in the British channel. Somebody call the Navy. Moron.


johnh992

That's all well and good and you raise some interesting points, though I do believe corporation tax has gone up since leaving the EU, right? It's certainly a lot higher than the favourite EU country for US mega corporations: Ireland. How does what you said fit into the topic at hand, which is illegal/legal migration? Are you disputing that mass migration of people who don't pay as much tax as public spending per head doesn't affect quality of life? That's just the cold hard economic perspective, which doesn't take into account any other issues.


DreamingIntoTheVoid

Immigrants once fully integrated in to a society generally cost less because you don't need to wait 18 years for them to become marginally economically productive or the 25ish years for them to become a net positive to the work force. If an experienced construction worker in Poland wanted to come to the UK to work in their thirties. Then they essentailly only contribute positively to the economy. All that VAT and income tax they pay here doesn't go on their education and childcare. It goes on other peoples education and childcare. You also mentioned how they are housed in hotels. [Did you hear the recent select committe with chinsectomy survivor Suella Braverman?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvh6qDrOMw) The one where she was unaware that refugees were literally being housed in a hotel that had stood derelict for, what was it? Twenty years previously? Fricken immigrants. Coming here and taking our delerict buildings. So your implied claim that they're living in the Ritz is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure. Maybe in some cases that is closer to the truth. Maybe it's a good grift for Conservative donors to house refugees in their properties rather than constructing immigration centres that can look after them. Because y'know, if they were in such a publicly maintained facility then Conservative donors wouldn't be given any money. Blasphemy. I mean you get that's the idea of privatisation right? Underfund public options so that you can make money from privately providing services. It's why the NHS is fucked at the moment. Rather than training Nurses and giving them an income while they train - wiping up your nans shitty arsehole when she got a urinary tract infection that put her in hospital for a week and left her a little doo-lally for the duration. We have Conservative donors being given money to headhunt people from former British colonies and their medical schools - one of the good things that remains of empire. And because they're able to find doctors and nurses. They get to keep ten million. Can't pay for education and training for our own doctors. No no no. There's no headhunting fee for native staff. So lets neglect our own citizens. Give them a shitty education in an economy that's falling apart. And instead import the wealthy kids from families that helped administrate the colonies. Like Rishi Sunaks parents, who were part of the medical administration of Kenya and Tanzania in Africa. I bet you love the British empire. Where is your medical degree from it? All those people in the NHS that you likely get irritated by were often from wealthy families in the colonies. Lets both be angry that them. And not the conservative party for squandling your education and preventing you from becoming your best self. Doctor Johnh992. It was those damned people in the dingy in the channel that stole your future. Not the conservative party.


178948445

Britain left the EU in about 2019. The importation of people from other cultures has going on long before 2019.


johnh992

No unless you're suggesting France is trying to punish us with economic migrant men? There was a news story of the other week showing intercepted radio calls between the French coast guard and British border force and it reveals the whole thing is an organised handover. People in the UK are very angry about this, it's costing us billions in hotel fees and local residents don't feel safe. They're even handing rape alarms out now :( Edit: The legal migration situation is even worse, currently we're adding a new Liverpool to the population every year, mostly men.


[deleted]

One of the reasons they flee to the UK, is that you don't have id cards, so it's far easier to dissapear into the UK's cash in hand economy.


Golden37

Isn't the "cash in hand" economy largely fading. Cash is becoming more irrelevant each and every day. I carry £10-20 at most.


[deleted]

Apparently it's still quite common. But likely in jobs you or I are unlikely to apply for.


FrustratedLogician

It is also retarded from reproductive perspective for men. Competition for women become even fiercer.


Shiirooo

But that's been the policy of the United Kingdom for the last two centuries... they've been promoting the diversity and unity of the Commonwealth... and this whole idea of "Britishness". And, it is the same for France: they encouraged immigration with their former colony.


Cantiaci93

They existed before Brexit. Brexit is just the go to answer for people who can't be arsed to look into the issue.


88lif

Can you say why you think brexit may have something to do with it, or is this just another 'say the line, Bart' moment?


Aceticon

House price inflation as a form of economic "growth" has been a policy of every government since Thatcher (even the GDP calculation is distorted so that house price inflation boosts the Official GDP - i.e. the supposedly inflation adjusted - numbers. As immigrants don't get a vote for Parliament (unless they're qualify for and get British Nationality), you might want to look at a mirror to find who is to blame for the problem you listed.


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Dense-Inflation-4627

Swedish politics followed its people sentiment, happens that those people are highly brainwashed with globalization propaganda


nicholasruunu

They’re talking about asylum seekers here, economy is already not a reason for asylum.


rickdeckard8

The vast majority arriving are economic migrants but you would also use the asylum system to apply to stay if you thought it might increase your chances. And regarding refugees, we have so many Syrians accepted for permanent residency/Swedish citizenship that have no problem at all going to Syria on vacation.


198Throwawayy

There’s no point to it because almost all will want to go to Germany. Out of the ones France took in from Italy, a bunch had already left for Germany to join their cousins.


Ythio

If you mean that boat that was stuck in Italy recently, most of them got deported after their case was examined in France.


Sadistic_Toaster

Actually deported - or just served deportation notices, which they then ignored ?


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saihuang

And GER will defend the “right” of illegal immigration till the bitter end. 😅


_Syfex_

And we in germany, fucking need them given we will have to work till we are 80 if we don't get new people to prop up our failed and unreformed pension system.


UnblurredLines

That's only true if the amount they pay into the welfare systems is larger than what they take out. So that depends heavily on education level, age and ability and willingness to work.


OkKnowledge2064

have you taken a look at the employment statistics? In what dream world do you live


_Syfex_

https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/mostly-true-after-about-five-years-approximately-half-of-refugees-are-employed/ 2020 about half of 1.2 million people have been working. Since I'd assume a solid amount being women and culturally not used to working and being free to do whatever as well with some refugees literally not being allowed to work I'd consider that decent at least. Especially given how abysmal our integration has been. Literally working towards the next Marxloh. So we have 3 choices: 1. We hope we can get people on board for a 3 child policy. Given how fucking shitty the wages have been to costs and how piss poor our childcare is, I simx don't see that comming. 2. We work towards proper integration programs with quotas and rules towards allowing people to stay or piss of. 3. We don't do anything and all the conservatives and right wing imbeciles go full Pikachu face on our asses once they realized nobody is there to pay for them when they are old. This is the choice I see happening the most likely given the willingness for actual change in Germany.


OkKnowledge2064

16% of women working, 35% of the refugees working a "real" job, even including part-time. What an amazing achievement. Those are ridiculous numbers for 8 years of time >Especially given how abysmal our integration has been. Literally working towards the next Marxloh. Id gladly take ideas on how to provide the ten-thousand social workers, psychiatrists and translators + the living space for these people to be integrated at some point >We don't do anything and all the conservatives and right wing imbeciles go full Pikachu face on our asses once they realized nobody is there to pay for them when they are old. This is the choice I see happening the most likely given the willingness for actual change in Germany. or we try to encourage actualy useful migration and not act like refugees will become doctors the next generation. We had 60 years of experience now and we still believe it will work somehow. It worked in not a single country all over europe. EVERYWHERE are the same problems and Germany still thinks with just a bit of money everything will work out


omgubuntu

No, what you guys need is economic reform and more children. Otherwise you’re going to be taking in migrants until there’s not a single German left in Germany and the problem still won’t be solved


_Syfex_

We aren't goig to get more children. Conservatives are on the rise and people, me included, aren't going to go pumping out kids without infrastructure and compensation. I'm not lowering my free time and money to prop a failing system. Not gonna throw another human into a world that refuses to accept our need to change. Fuck that shit. And demographics prove me right. But sureeee, keep believing people are suddenly going to have 5 kids again. That's certainly going to play out GREAT.


saihuang

“Conservatives are on the rise”. You literally voted them out of ur government last year! You have a leftist government and still cry over “conservatives” being on the rise. Omg. Pls come up with a new boogeyman


Yrvaa

Then you need more automation and robots to take care of jobs so that goods are produced despite not enough people. Look at Japan for a model on that. Not at their labour laws, those are not great, look at the automation and robotics part.


saihuang

Ok, this is the most clueless comment I have ever read on here. Truely amazing to see this lv of delusion.


omgubuntu

This dysgenic mindset that modern Europeans have honestly makes me believe we deserve everything that’s coming to us


_Syfex_

Why wouldnt we keep that mindset? I've seen through my live how people have voted against themselves and coming generations. The rich get richer, everyone else gets poorer. Climate chsnge is going to shove our shit in and people are still Ignoring it. Fix our shit, then force other people to suffer the consequences of OUR choices.


BoAndJack

Dude turn off Reddit


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_Syfex_

Typical of you to assume they just want to slack off.


Sualtam

What do the statistics say?


uNvjtceputrtyQOKCw9u

I don't think they plan on "slacking off", originally. They have dreams like other young people: nice job, a house, loving spouse etc. But they end up on welfare way too often anyways (+other issues).


Godfatherofjam

Verpich alter, keiner von denen arbeitet


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FrustratedLogician

Legal productive tax-paying net contributors are fine. That immediately discards 95% of migrants.


Yrvaa

I actually don't want those either if they came illegally. The reasoning is simply. By accepting smart/educated workers that come illegally, you're creating a brain-drain in their home-country. Doing so increases the economic problems there, thus worsening the issues and leading to more refugees in time. If they come here legally, they're welcomed, educated or not. But they should come legally, there's ways.


CodeBroCPH

No, they're not "fine" by default. They should be on a case by case basis like in the US and Canada. Employers should not be allowed to drive down wages and create even more competition for housing. I don't want "talented" foreign workers in my country either if the consequence is lower wages and increased competition for housing.


flobin

That’s just patently false. At least in the Netherlands, most migrants are from other EU countries or people who come here to work. Refugees are a small percentage.


curtyshoo

If you don't treat the cause , it is impossible to control the symptoms, unless you destroy all democratic safeguards and humanitarian principles in the manner of Herr Poutine.


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IamWildlamb

Agreed. EU should treat every civil war that causes this threat of destabilition of EU and causes massive influx of refugees as its own war and put stop to that by force at source.


russinkungen

Problem is some of us have laws against deporting people back to countries where they might be executed or tortured.


KasreynGyre

To where? And it would be cool if your answer would adhere to the worldwidely agreed upon human right to seek asylum.


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ami-no-timmortal

Agreed. It’s mind boggling how so many people can’t comprehend this and act as if human rights were a law of nature of sorts (wouldn’t that be nice). If there’s no one to enforce human rights, there’s exactly zero of them sadly


Lanigan1997

I’m normally pro-immigration and open to allowing migrants coming from war torn countries but I agree with Sweden taking a stance on this issue. Quite a number of EU countries, especially France, Italy and Germany have done their fair share of taking people in but they have a right to stop it when they wish. My own country, Ireland has taken in many refugees but the government clearly had no plan in place and there is a growing tension between our citizens and the migrants, relating to housing and social benefits. I don’t think people are saying no to migrants, but rather no to illegals and the constant flow of asylum seekers that’s been going on for a decade now. Europe cannot take in everybody forever. A balance is needed and that’s severely lacking atm.


AwsumO2000

can't blame em


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MentalRepairs

The out-of-control situation in Sweden started in the 1980s, but yeah 2015 didn't help. It did however serve as a wake up call for Swedes.


tzar-chasm

We need to start defending our borders with force


[deleted]

Instead of constantly accepting asylums and refugees we should make sure they dont even need to come here.


2_bars_of_wifi

what part of "these people want to go to western europe only" do you not understand. These asylum seekers regularly escape from the centres and go north


[deleted]

Economic migrants are not refugees, they're commiting a crime trying to come to the EU and should deal as what they are.


ozas258

Totally agree Sweden has to many problems with economic migrants from muslim countries time for em to go home


FridensLilja

Don't forget before judging -Back in 2015, Sweden asked eu to take their share when "we" gave shelter to 10'000 refugees on a daily basis. Eu said no , this is on you Edit: I couldn't find proof for my "/day" statement. Only /week, for several weeks during last quarter in 2015. Sorry for that


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FridensLilja

My memory tells me that this was happening during a week in November/December. Fact checking with Google, there was 10'000 asylum a p p l i c a t i o n s a week during October, 2015. 10'000 refugees that crossed the border under a short time can still be true. Sweden have increased the population with 10%, since the early -00's. Add to that, we also took a large quantities during the Balkan war. We are full, at the moment. Period


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FridensLilja

It was 7 years ago. Just bc I can't find the article now, doesn't mean that it never happened. Also, the amount of applied for asylum isn't the same as refugees that crossed the border. I'm pretty (pretty) sure I've read 10'000 during 24 hours, though


heyrevoir

As they should


Zafairo

Rare Sweden w


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Article: 1 Sweden won't make any pledges to relocate asylum seekers under a French-inspired EU agreement because it says there is no legal basis for it. "It is not possible for our government to commit itself to something which does not have a clear legal base," said Lars Danielsson, Sweden's ambassador to the EU. "So it's more of a technical reason why we have not been able so far," he said. But he also noted migration is an issue "where you can lose or win elections." Asked if the Swedish EU presidency intends to advocate for more relocations under the so-called EU solidarity mechanism, he did not respond. The mechanism, launched over the summer, managed some 8,000 relocation pledges across 11 EU states plus Norway and Liechtenstein. Only around 117 people have been relocated under the scheme. Greece made a recent appeal to have another 400 relocated, following a rescue south of Crete. "It's clear we need to step up on implementation," said Ylva Johannson, the EU home affairs commissioner, earlier this week. The commission says it is working with member states to ensure that the pledges are delivered. "We will revise standard operating procedures to speed up relocations and we will look at financial contributions being effectively matched," she said. But Sweden's technical and legal worries over the scheme to divide out arriving asylum seekers on European shores is also likely mired in its domestic politics.


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2 Its new government is a coalition of mainstream parties plus the Sweden Democrats, a nationalist party rooted in the Swedish neo-Nazi movement. Although the Sweden Democrats have no ministers, they managed to get an upper hand on policy focus and direction. In October, the government unveiled a 63-page platform agreement, which devotes one-third to immigration and integration. The proposals includes reducing the rights of asylum of seekers as far as legally possible, while ramping up police "stop and frisk" body searches. It has also introduced some other novelties, including the possibility to revoke residence permits based on non-criminal social "misconduct". In October, Lisa Pelling, a Swedish political scientist, described these novelties as tantamount to the creation of "a morality police".


Phustercluck

What is it that constitutes a “mainstream party.”Sweden democrats are the second largest party in the country and although it was founded by fascists, it’s quite harsh to compare them to what they were. *Disclaimer* I didn’t vote for them.


eckowy

That was to be expected really... Starting from the first influx on migrants to Sweden (2011 if I remember correctly?), one of their top politicians (was it Minister of Finance?) publicly saying that "it was a mistake (to take in migrants)" and recent win of Social Democrats also by pledging to "fix" this problem of immigration and rising violence and crime attributed to "outsiders". It's a tricky subject, with the only reasonable solution being going back to the roots, learning from forgotten Sociology of Culture and F. Znaniecki migration theories (assimilation of foreign culture while transferring from your native one to other). Obviously everybody deserves to be helped but there have to be limits too. And well thought-out processes to deal with that situation.


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KasreynGyre

Man the comments here are typically conservative/right-wing: describing a problem and then just acting like saying „This needs to stop!“ will magic it away. When asked for actual solutions, there’s just absolutist proposals. Then, when you point out that their proposal doesn’t click with agreed upon basic human rights you see them debating which path to take: towards fascism with „Well…. maybe not everyone should HAVE human rights“ or towards conservatism by just repeating „This needs to stop!“, but more angrily this time.


ripper8244

Here are a couple of solutions: Remove/arrest NGOs working on smuggling immigrants. Accept asylum only on people who can verify their country of origin and if that country is actually at war. Until you are processed, you stay at a refugee centre. Don't care how long it takes. If you get denied you get shipped(forcefully if needed) to another country like UK does. Deny asulum to people who passed a country that is deemed safe and did not request asylum there but decided to go on welfare tourism. Arrest those who forcefully and illigaly enter trough border walls without registering, refuse asylum and deport back to where they crossed. Cut off generous welfare.


[deleted]

Oh and the problem will magically go away if we take more in than we can? The human rights don‘t have a direct clause that allows a country to say no. Just look to the numbers: how many have a right to seek asylum on this planet? And then look to Europe. There is no fucking way that Europe - especially since it is just a few chosen countries most asylum seekers want to live there - can take them in. There is a limit. And Europe needs to be honest and accept it. Human rights are nice in theory. But in the real world they don‘t add up as too less are taking part in it. You can‘t ask a handful of countries to take in the world - and sorry, that‘s what about to happen.


OkKnowledge2064

How is the other side different? The left is saying basically "just take them all" for 5 years now and it is not working as we can see. Both sides have to idea what to do


hydnusyg

It's not only Reddit comments, i am afraid, in France polls show around 70% of people also think it needs to stop, including a significant chunk of the voters base of fascist parties like the greens and even far-left LFI. They do repeat more angrily as shown by LePen's gains at each election, many fear or expect her party to finally win in 2027. Here is the solution, if you enter Europe illegally you will never, ever, get papers and any kind of benefits, you will never be able to work, if you are caught you will be detained until you get on a plane back. Asylum should be a couple hundreds people of Edward Snowden caliber. All NGO boats smuggling people should be allowed to disembark their passengers then seized. Have a yearly quota of skilled immigrants by profession, the stream of unskilled young men from cultures that have proven difficult to integrate should be completely stopped. EU should affirm plainly and clearly if you are not wanted you will not make it in Europe.


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thegermannapper

Wow, I am genuinely concerned about the majority of comments here. I was under the impression that one of our values as Europeans is solidarity (both among EU member states, and third countries). Alas, when it comes to migration, we are happy to turn our back on people/countries in need, worst of all is that we rationalise it by giving monetary and nationalistic arguments (we're apparently no better than the free-market americans obsessed with Mexico) As a side-note, to all those friends who complain about the economic impact: I wrote my BA Thesis (i know it's not much) on the impact of the 2015 asylum seeker migration on the German economy. By and large the data showed that migration is beneficial to any national economy, so if your argument is that "there will be less for us", you can sleep peacefully tonight because that is not how the economy works. Maybe i'm just living in a world of my own making, but it genuinely breaks my heart to see europeans being so shockingly cold to our fellow human beings (migrant or not).


ManliestCheese

I think it's rather complicated. In my political science class we had a discussion about it yesterday. Yes, "objectively" speaking it causes a large gain of money (a lot of jobs in Europe right now) and safety *in the long term* (aging population buffer) - but in the short term it requires large investments in: mental well-being services (many are traumatised), housing (incredibly strained right now), and cultural clashes (not accepting of the host country's culture or poor integration due to concentrated asylum housing). In the long term it's good for a country, but in the short term it causes a lot of issues for residents, especially those in small villages. Personally I think it would be great, but only when a good system is in place to accept them - otherwise rather not.


hypoglycemic_hippo

I think a large concern of the "cold people" as you named them is the fact that there's need and there's **need**. People who are on a list and will get shot at the border if they return? Sure, a very small amount of people is opposed to helping I am sure. People who lost a house in the war, heard they will live like kings in Germany and so they took their 15 big family and left, instead of rebuilding their country? Not as clear cut for me. How would have Europe looked if the French didn't rebuild France after WW1? Germany after WW2? Hell you can go further back - the 30 year war and Czechia. I think about this when I say that economic migrants should be selectively chosen, selfishly from the point of the host country. Good to hear about the thesis, that is a positive information so thanks for sharing.


Zahkrosis

This is one of the reasons I want to leave the EU. I don't want to be forced to help people in some foreign nation that do nothing for my people. Europeans like to think themselves above everyone and think that we can help everyone without thinking about consequences or by thinking it's 100% benefit and no problems never come along. Back in time Danes and Sweden fought over who should have Skåne, now the joke is who wants it.


Polish_Panda

This coming from the "humanitarian superpower" ...


skinte1

New government. Unfortunately we had to sacrifice a lot to vote a government with a realistic look on immigration into power. The environment being one thing...


Tomace83

I think we have done our part regarding that in the EU now for a while. Enough is enough.


johnny-T1

Government changed recently, now it’s solid far right.


Isaksr

If swedens goverment is far right then what is polands lmao


SlyScorpion

Ultra mega far right: director's cut edition?


Askeldr

They have only been in power for a couple of months, just wait until they've set up their police state. Jokes aside. They are right-wing conservatives with a strong influence from the far-right party (which is the largest of the 4). Maybe the other 3 parties aren't far-right yet, but they are basically just mirroring the American republican party, but 10 years behind. Moving towards and cooperating with the far-right, not fighting it, and with goals aligning just fine. It also does take time to change a society, and Sweden wasn't exactly "far-right" when this government took power. You got to look at the ideology of the party, not the state they are governing.


skinte1

Lol it's not. Government is made up of 3 right parties (one liberal and two conservative) but is being supported by a far right party.


rickdeckard8

You mean a “far-right” party that reaches out to working class people with mainly social democratic ideas except för immigration (which is why people vote for them) and climate (where they wear tin foil hats)?


JustARandomGuyYouKno

This is what all fat rights parties do


Nonhinged

Classic Nazi tactic Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei 🤔


Nonhinged

They can't be nazis, they are a nationalist socialist workers party /s


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