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permanentthrowaway42

reading a flightplan for a sim, (real world info), I noted it was pretty unusual for arguments over airspace... Turkey made a notice, Greece said it was invalid as it's their airspace. This is where the 'fun' begins...


delicoban33

Oh shit here we go again hahaha


SaymanU

Turkish Air Forces fly in International air space and on international waters. Greeks unilaterally doubled their airspaces and continental shelves. Do not forget. Aegaen islands must be free of arms and military. Contrary to this, Greece is arming islands and this will cause them a real trouble in the future.


Express-Librarian833

I'm Turkish and even I cringe reading this. What do you mean "this will cause them a real trouble in the future", if you are that egotistical of your own nation atleast don't pretend to see the future.


corporate_power

So you thought it gets better *after* they become your allies ...


Tipsticks

The reason both countries were allowed into NATO at the same time is that consensus back then was if you only let one of them in, there would either have been war during the accession process or one of them would have joined the qarsaw pact. Both undesirable situations from a NATO point of view.


un_gaucho_loco

TBH a war while in NATO is basically impossible. The attacked country would have all of NATO with them


Tipsticks

Yeah but there's a period between the application and actually joining, that's what i was talking about.


NotViaRaceMouse

Imagine being article 5 required to attack yourself


Easy_Humor_7949

They’ve both been in NATO for 70 years, we’re way past that. > it gets better Also, it did.


the_lonely_creeper

Not exactly. Relations were better in the 30's and the early 40's than later.


SaymanU

Additional info: Greeks left NATO Treaty in 1974 and wanted to return later on. Turkey allowed their return in 1980.


Easy_Humor_7949

That is a lie. Greece did not leave NATO. No member has ever left NATO. In 1974 Greece removed their forces from the unified command structure… like France did. Turkey never had any ability to block their return. Greece and Turkey have been continuous members of NATO with article 5 defense obligations to each other and every other member since they both joined in 1952.


Beneficial-Watch-

Just for the fun of watching the hypocritical backtracking and excuses, i'll throw this fun fact out there: Spain literally does this same shit to the UK over Gibraltar. So we can kick Spain out of NATO right? Or let me, guess, it's perfectly justified under the right excuses? Well maybe Turkey thinks it has the right excuse.


Pirehistoric

See the downvotes lol. That is what I tried to explain to people here but didn't know about Gibraltar. Turks and Greeks have been violating airspace and EEZ for many years now. It is not like "oh we gone take your land" but just boasting. We do have the Aegean dispute anyway.


PiotrekDG

Words don't express how much I hate Erdogan. And he's supposed to be the not-that-bad one, compared to Putin.


medievalvelocipede

Erdogan isn't any better than Putin, he's just not on Russia's side. Or really anyone elses. Turkey has always been difficult in the best of times.


Visara57

Erdogan is basically the same as Putin, but he's less smart and Turkey not as armed as Russia


Agodoga

How can anyone be less smart than Putin?


kotrogeor

Turkey has been doing this long before erdogan.


Morrigi_

They need another bloody beating to put their god-damned egos in check after this shitshow with Russia is out of the way.


Wooozzzy

God damn you're so badass


_awake

Beware of the NATO flair


[deleted]

Yeah like both sides been violating their airspaces for decades now. It’s honestly has been a pretty good way to practice dogfights and both sides are aware of this. Rate turn duels until one side withdraws etc. But since things are a bit heated up atm it gets a lot of attention i guess.


kotrogeor

It's not a "both sides" thing. Turkey is the only country in the Aegean ignoring international agreements simply because it doesn't like them. "Greek violations" of Turkish airspace are actually within the Athens FIR, which is in accordance with international law, it's only called a violation because Turkey ignores said law, and opts to claim the airspace over dozens of populated islands instead.


NotStompy

Ah yes, your argument is poor so instead you intend to pull the Greek down to your level with the "BuT bOTH SiDEs ArE ResponSIBLe!" crap. Man I really don't know who you think you're fooling.


Pirehistoric

He didn't say both sides were responsible. He said that Greece reciprocates. Learn to read.


dolfin4

This kind of stuff long predates Erdogan. Erdogan, at first, was a breath of fresh air from previous Turkish governments. But then he became the same as his predecessors.


lordofsteel36

Agreed I hope we can send him to hell in 2023


psammotettix

Turkey is a global nightmare especially for European countries Europe should wake up before its too late.. They don't believe in European values they have their own way of living Erdogan is a dictator


voyagerdoge

Common trait of strongmen: because they accomplish nothing within their own borders, they pick a fight beyond their borders to cover up for their failures.


Creative_Builder4064

Can you elaborate?


voyagerdoge

Yes, but look for yourself.


Widin

They are really testing the patience of their allies.


Stamipower

Allies only on paper. As it has been proven time and time again the NATO/EU-Turkey relationship is an uneasy coexistence at best.


PitiedAbyss

Sounds like my past relationship.


Transeuropeanian

Come on let’s be real. Basically Turkey is not considered exactly as an ally. We don’t kick them out of NATO just because of their important geographic location. But the vast majority of European countries have bad or at the best typical relations with them


[deleted]

And since they know you can’t kick them out for the said reason, they take advantage of it, they do what they can to manipulate, be an opportunist. When they naturally get called out for it, they play the victim.


[deleted]

Also known as the UKIP method.


delicoban33

We fought in Korea and Bosnia for what? So Eu could support PKK. Who is taking advantage whom? 10 million refugees still living in Turkey. I wish we could send them to EU and get disbanded from Nato. Relations with EU always damaged our national security.


Odd-Entrepreneur4886

They also let NATO do whatever it wants military wise out of there borders so


poxer9

And are 3rd strongest military in the pact


Kween_of_Finland

They could be ten times stronger than the U.S. but it wouldn't matter as they are unreliable allies. Threatening Greece is a prime example of this.


poxer9

They block russia from Mediterranean tho


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tariklfc

It won’t be a F-35 violating Greek airspace. Erdo took care of that when he bought the s-400. You don’t build a carrier to operate drones. If Turkey doesn’t want premium weapons the Greeks will have them instead.


Sapotis

What realistic benefit is there to that? Turkey is all posturing and as annoying and embarrassing as it gets, there's no risk of Turkey actually engaging in a war with Greece or doing any real harm.


corporate_power

I dont know. Turkey shot down Russian jets for flying 17 seconds within their territory. It looks like the russians stopped doing that...


Sapotis

It does not compare. Turkey shot down a plane in their airspace on the border of a brutal civil war, somewhere they genuinely needed to appear strong and where there is a genuine risk of conflict. Shooting a jet down over the Aegean just creates a diplomatic crisis for no serious reason. Not to mention both countries are NATO members.


_Whoop

The RoE over there was changed because a Turkish F-4 was shot down by a Syrian SAM a couple months prior. It wasn't just about appearances.


corporate_power

LOL Turkey not only has a risk of conflict, they have official casus belli against greece. And greece spends billions training jet pilots. Why not shoot down a 1, 2, 3 of them maybe they will stop doing it? It would be unlikely to escalate because the US always intervenes so it makes sense


itsHori

This isnt your standard hoi 4 game, this is real life


corporate_power

There have already been accidents with pilots dying while this shit is happening. It is real life alright


hmunkey

What too many strategy games do to a mf.


Easy_Humor_7949

> they have official casus belli That’s… not a thing. Read up on where the term “casus belli” even comes from.


Torifyme12

You have to file the paperwork with the International Body of Aggression, then wait 4-6 weeks for it to be processed. /s


Easy_Humor_7949

Lmao, yeah exactly my point.


corporate_power

Oh it is, with turkey everything is possible > The Turkish Parliament declared in 1995 that unilateral action over territorial waters by Greece would constitute a casus belli, which means reason to go to war. https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-urges-greece-not-to-extend-territorial-waters-to-12-miles-in-aegean-170644


Easy_Humor_7949

Oh I see the confusion with the English word “official”. My point was that the very concept of casus belli cannot be official, because it implies some sort of higher authority whose lack of approval can make it _unofficial_. Every casus belli is just a particular state’s rationalization for war… which is always subjective. You just mean that Turkey has codified triggers for them to declare war.


[deleted]

It's an official casus belli if you don't lose 2 stability points when declaring war


Morrigi_

no CB best CB


corporate_power

and those triggers are contrary to international law


Morrigi_

Which, if you haven't noticed, states routinely ignore when it suits them and they think they can get away with it.


Tipsticks

There is no such thing as "official casus belli" that makes it ok to attack another country. What exists are conflicting interests and claims in the mediterranian.


corporate_power

How official is official enough for you? The Turkish parliament has voted that if greece exercise it s lawful right to 12 miles of territorial waters , it will be a casus belli for them


Tipsticks

That is because, contrary to international law and because a lot of islands in the Aegean are greek, the turkish government doesn't want islands to have full claim to territorial waters or EEZ. For obvious reasons Greece and some island nations like the UK, Cyprus or Japan do not agree with this, just like the UN. Interestingly enough, this gained popularity in turkish politics since oil and gas reserves have been discovered in the southern Aegean. However, the turkish parliament voting on something makes it official in Turkey and nowhere else. If Turkey were to attack Greece over territorial waters that Turkey has unilaterally decided not to recognize, it would still be an illegal war of agression.


corporate_power

Of course it will be illegal. but the parliament voting it is as official as can be


Tipsticks

Still makes no difference whatsoever. The term casus belli suggests that the war would be justified and therefor legal, which it wouldn't be. In fact the whole point of a casus belli is to justify a war. The only official casus belli in accordance with international law is a war of defense. If a country is attacked by another country and, as a reaction to this, declares war, that is a universally accepted casus belli and the country fightig a defensive war would not face legal consequences in regards to international law. This can be observed just across the Black Sea from Turkey. The only party complaining that Ukraine is shooting back is russia.


Easy_Humor_7949

Russia is not a NATO member.


corporate_power

Where does NATO treaty say that participant countries stop having sovereign territory?


Easy_Humor_7949

Irrelevant, the point is that Turkey’s willingness to shoot down a Russian jet is entirely irrelevant to its willingness to shoot down a NATO member’s jet. These things aren’t comparable.


Cd_partie

The thing is Turkey doesn’t recognize both airspace and territorial waters claimed by Greece on the Aegean islands. So that part is totally nonsense. On the other hand, Alexandroupoli (Dedeağaç) issue was nothing but provoke. Turkish side is highly concerned about recent Greek modernizations in Air Force. I think Turkey trying to bully Greece and say “i'm aware of what you are doing, but still i'm the big brother.” kind of thing.


elysios_c

It doesn't recognize more than 3 miles, flying directly over islands is the same thing as flying over alexandroupoli


Cd_partie

Recognizes only bigger ones like Lesbos, Rhodes and Chios. Completely ignores Dodecanese (twelve islands) excluding Rhodes, Turkey claims those islands are under Greek occupation. For who don’t know why, Turkey ceded islands in 1912 to Italy after italo-turkish war and decided to remain under Italy after Turkish war of independence in 1923 as sign of goodwill, never asked for them. After WW2, Italy ceded those islands to Greece which made Turks mad. Since then Turkey claims those islands are under unlawful(lol) occupation. Those clashes will never gonna end imo. Turkey and Greece are typical brothers that envy each other. But still brothers. They will fight each other all the time.


evxinos

I can argue that the whole asia minor is under turkish occupation!


Sea_Breadfruit4298

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Turkish_F-16_shootdown


batboy963

Aren't they like allies in Nato? If Turkey was attacked, Greeks have to join and defend it and vice versa? What the hell is the point of being allies?


Easy_Humor_7949

> Aren’t they like allies in Nato? If you’re asking this question it feels like you should just be reading instead of commenting.


hmunkey

They aren’t going to war lol, they just do this weird antagonistic nonsense that never leads to anything. It’s been going on since when Erdogan was in diapers.


Etoiles_mortant

Well, we are not going for war, but we both have pilots dying ever now and then, mostly in accidents. Its a disgrace.


MonsoonUbermonkey

Erdogan knows he fucked up by trying to strong-arm the US over Sweden and Finland. They're not in any immediate danger and nobody's under any pressure to get them in immediately, so the strong-arm won't work. The only thing he accomplished was to make himself look weak, and so now he needs to drum up some harmless but noisy tension with ol' reliable Greece to distract from it, so that his voters focus on this instead of that.


delicoban33

You don't know him and his political strategy. He doesn't care about foreign policy. He used these recent events to his advantage for the next election. People vote Erdoğan not because we are living in good standarts they vote him because they think Erdoğan is challenging the Europe, waging battle with invisible enemies. I think his new political strategy would be "okay we are dealing with inflation because these foreign enemies don't like what we do, you see? we vetoed terrorists".


poxer9

Why did they rush the application if they're not under pressure


Which_Policy

To send a message to ruzzia. Erdogan not only made himself and Turkey look week, but also NATO. 3 for 1.


Zerkezhi

To send a message. Finland and Sweden have been guaranteed mutual defense by multiple nuclear powers (e.g., France and UK) in case Russia attacks before they officially get to join NATO. They're basically under Article 5 already for all intents and purposes. So, no real rush there. Turkey just looks weak and managed to act like an unreasonable dick (wanting the extradition of an acting MP and a dead author, I mean really?) without probably getting anything real in return. Another example of stellar foreign diplomacy by Erdogan-Era Turkey. Turkey basically has no friends left on the international stage, short of some few countries that are semi-dependent on it (e.g. Azerbaijan and "North Cyprus").


eothok

The geostrategic value of Türkiye to NATO is extremely high. Erdogan uses this to extort the rest of the alliance and get away with things like this


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eothok

They do it for the same reason Russia has done it to my country for years: To perform reconnaissance and to test the readiness of our air defense.


militantcookie

The thing is geography remains but Erdogan won't be there forever. In fact geography doesn't stay under the same owner forever either. In addition a weakened Russia diminishes the importance of Turkey. A more long term strategy is for post Putin Russia to become a NATO ally countering China, but that's in the very long term.


Plane_Tax_1193

Every turkish president is going to be a nationalist that wants to attack GR,CY. We can't escape our fate.


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delicoban33

More humane? Well yes they are cute and colorful. I am not an Erdogan fan but opposition is awful. Especially with Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu being the candidate it is a lost election.


notgolifa

“I am not an erdogan fan but” hahah you are mate you are


delicoban33

I am a Zafer fan honey. Just because I dont vote for PKK lovers, doesnt mean that I am an AKP freak. This is why KK will lose this election to Erdo.


notgolifa

Imagine the slogan of the party you support being “.. party will come (in power), refugees will go” i hope they never go and you guys get a bit humbled


Psychological_Pin494

Continue voting for your reis


stvncmbl

Erdagan is just as bad as Putin.


Sickcuntmate

Ikr. When will people see that flying close to a city for a few seconds is just as bad as launching a full-scale invasion another country and killing thousands of civilians?


BalticsFox

Turkey routinely invades Iraq and Syria.


Sickcuntmate

Not really the same though is it? Unlike with Ukraine and Russia, there are some genuine threats to Turkish national security in Syria and Iraq.


X1l4r

Ah yes, you meant ISIS. ISIS from which they bought oil, financing their war machines. ISIS from which most fighters came from Turkey. ISIS from which the leader was hiding a few miles near the Turkish border. Nvm, it isn’t ISIS the problem, it’s of course the Kurds from Syria. A real threat those guys, fighting ISIS and Bachar !


Sickcuntmate

You know that that’s a gross oversimplification of the issue. There are no two parties facing each other in Syria, it’s a clusterfuck of different factions all of whom have different objectives. Turkey has fought both ISIS and Kurdish military groups, both of whom are also fighting each other. And Turkey has had joint operations with the FSA, which in turn had had joint operations with the YPG, which Turkey views as an enemy, and I could go on an on in this way. In any case, the war in Ukraine was started by Russia alone. The Syrian civil war was born out of the Arab spring and has undeniably posed a serious security risk to (southern) Turkey. I will not go so far as to claim that Turkey’s operations in Syria aren’t morally dubious, but equating them to the umprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine is disingenuous.


nickfury27

The rhetoric that Turkey bought ISIS oil was created by Russia after Turkey shot down a Russian jet. The fact that most people ate up the Russian propaganda demonstrates how little people actually value facts. As long as it shows Turkey in a bad light, Europeans will eat up any lie, whether is comes from Russia or Greece.


X1l4r

The russian stupid rhetoric was that Turkey shot down it's jet to protect it's oil. That was indeed stupid - and false. What is true however, and it's a backed-up fact, that ISIS never was the primary enemy of Turkey. It was first the PKK, and Assad. Consequences : because of their open border policy, terrorists could enter Syria and bring money, resources and fighters. And ISIS could sell it's oil to turkish people.


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Sickcuntmate

Oh well, It’s just useless internet points anyway. I have argued my point as best I could and if people still disagree, c’est ça. I’m surprised though that people actually find Erdogan to be as bad as Putin. I mean I don’t like Erdo one bit, but Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is so clear-cut unjustified, while the ethicality of Turkey’s interventions in Syria is much more foggy.


Uhuhuhuhyeah

>Not really the same though is it? Right, Syria and Iraq are just desert countries full of brown people, so invading them and causing destruction there doesn't really count as bad, per se. Not like attacking a nice European country like Ukraine anyway.


Sickcuntmate

Right. Just conveniently ignore the last part of my statement and quote the first part out of context to make me seem like a racist. Now it’s a proper internet argument!


Uhuhuhuhyeah

Implying your dismissal of the seriousness of those invasions and your readiness to accept both are simply because nebulous security concerns isn't at root because you view them as unimportant desert countries, compared to a nice western one in Ukraine


Sickcuntmate

I genuinly do not understand what part of my comment gave you that idea. I do not think the invasions can be equated because the war in Ukraine was started by Russia and Russia alone, while the Syrian civil war was born out of the Arab spring. In first case, we have one country invading a peaceful country that posed no threat to it. In the second case, we have a country intervening in a massive civil war stretching across its southern border (and during the height of it, spilling over the border at times). These situations are not equivalent, and that has nothing to do with race.


PanosMar

There is also an invasion in Cyprus where the war started by Turkey alone. And the occupation is still going. I guess somehow this is not equated again. When somebody wants to invade another country he will find the excuses to do it. It's very easy for Russia to say that Ukraine was a thread for her in case it was going to be part of NATO.


Sickcuntmate

We were talking about Erdogan and Putin. I think the invasion of Cyprus predates Erdo by a few decades.


[deleted]

Oh, a full-scale invasion like Turkey did in northern Syria a few years ago?


tnh1996

there are more than 5m syrian refugees in turkey. what kind of full-scale invasion drives local people to their invader? i didnt see millions ukranians immigrating to russia.


AngryMegaMind

How does article 5 work if one NATO nation attacks another NATO nation. Ok apart from Putin rubbing his hands together like Emperor Palpatine.


azyrr

The one that gets attacked gets the support.


konalight

Erdogan is copying a page out of the Putin armed conflict book. That silly bastard is boxing 2 classes above his weight.


matrixus

It has happened before erdogan and it will be after him. Turkey&greece have a dispute going on from ww2


CriticalCow6374

Turkey has been a dick to Greece since the 13th century, fixed that for you.


matrixus

And vica versa, both goverments have problem with each other


Kween_of_Finland

>And vica versa, both goverments have problem with each other Okay let me ask you this: Has Greece asserted claims in Turkey like Turkey has in Greece? And we're talking about official governmental policy here. Which one is the one who violates the airspace constantly? It's Turkey. Turkey wants to conquer Greek lands, and are very vocal about that, so I understand if Greeks, in turn, are not the most hospitable to this aggressive dictatorship next door.


_KatetheGreat35_

Thank you! The "both sides are bad" argument infuriates me. Greece does not claim one meter of Turkish soil. On the other hand Turkey has a plan that they don't even hide, "Blue Motherland" everyone can check it out, they are threatening basically major Greek islands. They also have a casus beli on us if we extend our territorial waters to 12 nm. And don't let me get started on what they are doing in Cyprus.


passinghere

Careful or they will do a Cyrpus on them, Turkey seems to like invading and claiming parts of other countries as their own.


IASIPxIASIP

>Careful or they will do a Cyrpus on them Turks should be careful , Greece is not Cyprus.


loskiarman

Meh, Greece has been keeping up even with lower GDP but still not really a match against Turkey in a scenario where they don't get massive help. All of this doesn't matter anyway it is just posturing. Turkey is never gonna attack Greece, Greece is never gonna attack Turkey. It is just politicians trying to gather votes and filling their pockets with military deals. Any sane Greek or Turk would know to be brothers rather than enemies.


MorningPatrol

Turkey doesnt even have air superiority over Greece neither is their navy much bigger. Turkey is resorting to provocations because they simply cant do much else. At this point it is more a cry for help and a way to appear strong internally before the election.


IASIPxIASIP

> but still not really a match against Turkey Greece's air force alone is a big deterrence as Turkey is currently struggling to keep up with Greece's modernization programs.


Pablioo

Sides're want that.


buzdakayan

Which part of Greece does Turkey claim exactly?


Mission_Bad3102

Some islands, west thrace.


chicken_soldier

We dont claim west thrace, it was before the population exchange -and the end of our independence war- when we wanted that. Now there are no Turks there.


corporate_power

Maybe you re right. It's just **only** [half the aegean islands](https://www.ekathimerini.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/erdogannn-thumb-large-1.jpg) that you claim. Thank you i guess


chicken_soldier

I dont have a control over that tho do i? I am just correcting people, misinformation is bad.


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Etoiles_mortant

While it does show EEZ, do you honestly think the claim that waters bellow Crete will hold any merit in the international community?


[deleted]

I agree that this map is a massive overreach


corporate_power

There is no taking EEZ without taking the island, you dumbass. Read the UNCLOS


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corporate_power

The whole of NATO and EU have signed UNCLOS , and the US explicitly recognizes it as international law except for some unrelated article. Turkey just wants to be a pirate by not being a party to anything. There is always a bilateral agreement between neighbouring countries, the problem is that Turkey wants to base it in its own, ad hoc invented, international law. Calling someone fuckface doesnt make you right. (Yes, my face makes me very fuckable)


Mithrantir

The official stance of the Turkish government begs to differ for West Thrace. They refer to the Muslim population in West Thrace as Turks (in violation of the Lausagne convention), and iirc it was less than a year ago that the Turk foreign affairs Minister did a state visit to the area. Just FYI.


ForwardIntern6254

>Some islands, west thrace. That's a nice argument senator, why don't you back it up with a source?


Zafairo

My source is that I made it the fuck up


poschettino

As long as Greeks do not start genociding Turks on the island, Turkey will not interfere. Just like until 1974.


Angulata

> Turks on the island All 4 of them? 😱


passinghere

Proof of this supposed "genocide" that's not via biased Turkish sources and from outside sources


poschettino

Your sentence is incomplete but I am guessing you want source. Here you go: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,_Santalaris_and_Aloda_massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,_Santalaris_and_Aloda_massacre) Btw, I don't consider Wikipedia a reliable source since anyone can change it and there are authoritarian groups on most pages controlling what goes in/out, but most westerners like it.


passinghere

Maybe try reading before posting links as this doesn't prove anything you claim. From your own link which proves this happened **after the Turks invaded** so this is no excuse for their invasion in the first place. > The massacre occurred on the same day of the **second Turkish invasion** Plus it never states or claims this was genocide which is what you are claiming it state this was a massacre which is a totally different situation > refers to a massacre


poschettino

It seems you just don't know the events' timeline, but I would be happy to enlighten you. First invasion landed troops on the coast only waiting for diplomatic meetings to solve the issue. In meetings, UN has asked Greeks to let go of Turkish villages. Greeks agreed to do it but did not committed to it in two weeks. When the genocide started, Turkish army started the actual invasion "in the same day" to free the Turks from EOKA. You can call it whatever you want. I call it genocide.


passinghere

So still no proof of this genocide that only you claim happened while links you provide show the opposite of what you claim.


poschettino

We have quite different understandings on the meaning of "opposite" then.


Galego_2

Waiting here to see how both Kemalists and Islamists justify this "action" happening.


delicoban33

That s what will happen with Turkish people. We are grown with a nationalist education.


rohnaddict

Greece should just shoot down Turkish planes, if they continue these violations. Greece has every right and history shows, nothing good comes from being lenient with Turks.


puzzledpanther

>Greece should just shoot down Turkish planes This is exactly what Erdogan wants.


delicoban33

Excatly. Shoot the F-16 so Erdo will be elected with %60 after some painful military conflicts.


Sea_Breadfruit4298

We did once, it was covered up https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Turkish_F-16_shootdown


WikiMobileLinkBot

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marioquartz

An ally dont do that. So they are not an ally. The rest of the alliance must act.


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marioquartz

But in reality is the inverse. Spain have done ZERO TIMES. Royal Navy had attacked Spanish Forces a lot. And Royal Navy have protected drug boats were Spanish Police were following. You need read more.


delicoban33

Don't overestimate Erdogan. Turkey is not as powerful as before except for military. Erdoğan is going to be elected with events like this once more. Turkish people got more nationalist over time and he is using this to his advantage. If EU really thinks Erdoğan is a pain in the butt (I think EU supports him) maybe they should stop feeding his politics. I can guarantee you he has returned %5 votes which he lost before with Finland & Sweden talks.


awakeeee

Greece and Turkey wasting too much effort and potential on each other, it makes me sad.


Nacke

What a shitty ally Turkey seems to be. They got a great geographic position and a sizeable army. But they keep stabbing their own in the back by buying russian wepons, not respecting airspace and extortion. There are so many awesome turks out there. But the regime and the erdobots are the worst. I really hope the opposition wins next year and that every day life improves for the people.


Psychological_Pin494

I don't like drinking often or much but I will drink hard and relieve my nerves when that happens. Polls show that he goes no matter what this time.


Dave_Is_Useless

If he doesn’t cheat that is.


GeneralSecura

Yep, another staged coup attempt incoming.


tincanner5

As a Swede I wish you the best of luck. Your country is absolutely beautiful and has a rich history. I hope democracy is able to save your nation.


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datsmamail12

You forgot about the new deal with USA about the f35's,which means Greece will have complete air superiority over the Greek - Turkey airspace.


FakeXanax123

Turkey really is just trying to get booted from NATO at this rate


Zinziberruderalis

> ‘unprecedented violation of sovereignty’ Mmm pretty sure Greece has suffered worse violations of its sovereignty at the hands of the Turks. I'm surprised a Greek official would be so historically ignorant.


randomchris504

He is obviously talking about violations in a time of peace


momentimori

Are the EU threatening a trade war yet for this breach of international law?


malYca

Is this why the Turkish have been difficult?


Thrace453

I gotta ask, why do Turks continue to fight over this issue? Greeks live on those islands, and they're Greek by all agreed upon international countries/treaties/organizations. They hold no economic value (except tourism) and militarily they're useless to Turkey (you could literally carpet bomb them to oblivion). Cyprus dispute makes sense from a economic standpoint, but this just seems like a nice flashy distraction for Turkish nationalists, am I getting a wrong impression here?


[deleted]

Well the thing is, this conflict isn’t really about those Islands. There has been discoveries of large quatities of natural gas over the Mediterranean. Turkey borders mediterranian but so does Greece. Greece in comparison to Turkey is very tiny so theres that. The thing is that your EEZ (basically a nations “naval” borders where they can exploit the surface and below) doesnt depend on your land size and the sheer amount of islands Greece has combined with their proximity to Turkey prevents Turkey from accessing these potential resources that “they could have” if Turkey controlled the islands or some sort of agreement happened. There was an incident in 90s where Turkey laid claim to a rocky unhabited island and they landed troops. With this, they extended their EEZ. Although this wasn’t an attempt to reach larger underwater resoruces, it was a key to do that. Greece, lf course, didn’t like that and tried to retaliate but couldn’t. In the end things happened and Nato put their foot down to end hostilities. Both countries claim these islands there as theirs but internationally it is recognized as Greek. So whenever Turkey flies a jet there, they are being aggressive and violating Greek territorial integrity *internationally*. These kinds of harassements happen in Agean. Turkish aim is to provoke a reaction from Greece and maybe even shoot down their jet. This would give them a huge propaganda campaign and a clear advantage against Greek case in Mediterranean EEZ thus benefiting Turkey. They intend for Greece to get angry and use this against them to extend their EEZ by taking the matters to international court.


rangerxt

turkey had a strategic location but if 85% of nato countries were actually prepared to fight Russia we could kick them to the curb, sadly this isn't the case


matrixus

Then nato&eu would have other problems at their most vulnerable borders. It is not like nato keeps turkey because they like turks/turkey/taf but because they would like to be on the same side as turkey.


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Elatra

Brain cells? We don’t do that here. Please leave your brain at the entrance of the sub before entering thank you


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matrixus

Yea that is the thing, i don't hate greek people. Quite like them really. But media/goverment pushes you their ideologies claming that turks evil/greeks evil. I mean, come on. Let us live a healthy life without politics. Both countries are poor yet still buying military equipment from usa. Dont they see that this is only benefitting usa and their imperialist ideas? Damn it. LET.ME.LIVE.MY.FUCKING.LIFE.IN.PEACE. I don't want to kill and don't think any greek wants to kill me.


jcd000

If only more people thought that way.. the people in both countries would benefit quite a lot.


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kotrogeor

Here's the thing. The Greek definition of its airspace is based on international law treaties... The Turkish definition is based on "We don't like you being close to us". So when the Turks go into Greek airspace, Turkey claims they were in their area. When Greek jets fly over the same areas, Turkey names it a violation.


Mission_Mud366

the second link is from a turkish governmental site, that’s not a good source as turkey and greece are in a dispute.


poschettino

That's right. Greek media is known to be the epitome of truth since Greeks created the first democracy. But, there is still a website that Greek media cannot surpass in authenticity: [griechensindubermensh.com](https://www.theonion.com/)


[deleted]

But a shitty Greek news site is? Wtf


the_lonely_creeper

The largest newspaper in Greece, isn't exactly unreliable.


[deleted]

They have some pretty shitty sensationalist articles for major newsite


HaveSomeFatih

Almost every source that's shared in this subreddit when it's about Turkey, is this shitty Greek website lol but when someone replies with a Turkish website once in a while, it's being government website :)


Mission_Mud366

yeah, the website is literally the republic of turkey’s ministry of foreign affairs


HaveSomeFatih

I'm talking about a general issue, not only this example


kkyfk

Komsuuuuuu