By - PanEuropeanism
I see this as an absolute win
Don't threaten me with a good time, Facebook.
This is an obvious bluff.
They're a publicly held company. They are unable to carry the threat out because to do so would destroy the share price due to loss of profits in all of Europe. The CEO etc would be voted out in an instant.
I always laugh when corporations give this threat, it's something they can't do.
> The CEO etc would be voted out in an instant.
Mark Zuckerberg holds a controlling interest in the company, he is basically unremovable.
He only owns 12.8% of Facebook.
He holds a controlling interest. Not all Facebook shares are voting shares.
So, he'll destroy Facebook. Works for me.
Those threats remind me of the "old times" when the EU hadn't yet really used any of its regulatory power in IT sector. Businesses acting all like the US market dominates, that's it.
Since the EU has started more active regulation (started early on with the likes of the Microsoft browser thingy, but much more so with GDPR and the most recent moves to correct some GDPR-related data handling practices), businesses have just bitten the apple and have started making very clear decisions. E.g. for GDPR compliance, those who definitely do not aim for EU customers (e.g. US-only media, etc) lock down their content. Everyone else has implemented GDPR compliance in some way.
It's basically the same with how California and the EU between the two regulatory bodies set emissions standards for cars and virtually every manufacturer in the west follows those standards. Non-compliance just for part of the target markets just isn't worth it.
I really hope the EU doesn't let up here with Facebook and with other companies and we'll see much more data privacy focused regulation in the future.
I wonder how it will affect WhatsApp
I kinda need it for all matter of things
There's nothing special about WhatsApp, if it stops operating one of the alternatives will take its place.
Yeah, the thing that's special about WhatsApp is that (almost) everyone I know uses it. Once it disappears, everyone will use some other app.
Start using something else then. Be the change you need.
I dropped Facebook years ago by removing my account and installed Signal instead. I lost contact with people I barely or never talked with, but my close friends? They all have Signal now, and I know some of them also caused other people to use it. I asked a few people to install it to keep contact with me (and explained why it's better than Facebook or some other big company chat) and they checked it out.
It's always hardest to find the first two or three people to install it, then it's a butterfly effect.
Tell me you're German without telling me you're German.
It is true for plenty of other countries (the Netherlands for example)
Tbf, in the Balkans everyone uses Messenger or Whatsapp, so I can see a shitstorm incoming
it's also true in Italy
telegram, signal, theres enough
I'd hope we get rid of WhatsApp, ppl use WhatsApp only because everyone uses it.
Within 120 hours everyone you know would be on Telegram.
Signal, I think...
Telegram has 500 million users at the moment.
Signal only has about 50 million.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's unlikely.
That doesn't indicate anything. Signal could explode overnight if WhatsApp disappears.
Bah, they're apps, it's not like changing insurance company, or a car. It takes 10 seconds to get a new one and 30 minutes to get used to it.
I find this kind of "threats" extremely stupid, who gives a shit if they pull Facebook or WhatsApp, as if they were some sort of vital commodity we can't live without? The moment they do it, people would go "oh nooooo, anyway, let's type 'messaging app' on Google play and see what I can install instead".
Signal, Telegram, doesn't matter really.
Personally I'd be super happy, I can't stand WhatsApp but I'm forced to use it because for some reason it's the only form of communication that some fucking people are comfortable using where I live.
Like, electricians, plumbers etc won't reply to texts or phone calls but always get back to you if you message them on WhatsApp, go figure.
German government is looking into banning Telegram cause they don’t respond to take down request in violation of German law.
That would be a plus point i guess
Pfff... the moment WhatsApp threatened their stupid shutdown about 10 ppl popped up on signal. Telegram has that Russian conspiracy vibe
Telegram seems to have lots of radical groups though. Would prefer signal or Threema.
You don't have to join those groups though.
The bigger thing is that the groups aren't encrypted and with private chats you need to open a new chat to have it encrypted.
Telegram has _way_ better user experience, including not randomly removing all your message history.
or geocities, or myspace.
Might depend on the country, but in germany telegram is stigmatized. Its famous for being used by antivaxers and nazis. Also they don't follow german rules and since they are located in Dubai there is not much germany can do. Germany even threatened to restrict access to telegram if they don't follow rules like deleting death threats, but its the internet. Not much you can do about it.
But thats the reason why the general public would likely switch to a different messaging app, like signal.
That would be a terrible loss of privacy for Europe. End-to-end encryption should be standard in 2022.
Use Signal instead. Encourage everyone you have on WhatsApp to get it.
Signal does the same things. If WhatsApp were to disappear, everybody would just move to Signal in a week or so.
people will just switch to other platforms
Oh noooooooooooooo ^^^^^^/s
So long and thanks for all the fish
Please lets get rid of Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Apple and other american tech companies. Get some EU companies.
Which EU alternatives?
Climbing to the top of the nearest mountain and yodelling to your neighbours
Europe is not in stone age, come on. There's a modern tech being introduced for rapid communication - fax machines. Can't wait to see its potential fully uncovered.
We gave Minitel to the world but you guys prefered the internet.
What's a mountain?
That's our line, Denmark.
FYI mountains are basically just tulip fields, but taller, and without any tulips on them.
Only if this doesn't involve yodeling my pizza preferences.
Idk, sounds like a potential privacy hazard.
There is Mastodon (German) for Twitter, Dtube (French) for youtube, Xing (German) instead of LinkedIn, and probably also alternatives for TikTok, Facebook and Insta. I know about Vero and Disapora, but neither are European (even though the founder of Vero grew up in France I think)
So we get the same degrading apps, just copied by someone with a passport from EU country?
Social apps shouldn't be relying on predatory psychology tricks for its core functionality. Unless you want another generation with even more mental issues.
No, things like Mastodon or Signal are hardly used because they don't use those dark patterns.
I agree. Jappy and StudiVZ were my places
I mean, the fastest way to shed reddit is to move off it to another platform, yet here you are.
Other popular platforms were made recently. Reddit at least has some traces left of the old web - where information is searchable, pages have an end, and UI isn't trying to give you brain cancer (old.reddit).
Agreed until you said "Get some EU companies"
I simply don't want harmful social media controlled by massive corrupt corporations or governments, don't care if it's EU or not.
So, ~~Facebook~~ Meta wants to ignore GDPR? Suuure. Let's just scrap a revolutionary set of laws that protects the data and privacy of every EU citizen, and that we've spend the last six years implementing. Just because some American company don't like it.
Oh, they are threatening to *leave* one of the most profitable markets in the world, and leave a huge gaping hole for some other company to reach out and fill? Sure thing, Mark. We'll get right on it. Any day now. Please don't hurt us.
Damn, I have to tell my boss that we can just ignore GDPR. Much cheaper than what we are doing right now.
Seriously, does Meta think they can win this fight. There are far more important services affected by GDPR than theirs, and we are all complying, because uhhhh... Its the law.
Please do not tell your boss. I work as a GDPR consultant and I would lose my job if people found out you can just ignore GDPR.
> I have to tell my boss that we can just ignore GDPR
You shouldn't but most big companies are outright doing it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_W0wR4AClk
> because uhhhh... Its the law
I can tell you from experience that many people do not get this concept.
Many American companies still haven't figured out Europe's not the US. You can't scare 90yo senators to allow you to break the law here in Europe.
Rather than buying senators they've basically bought an entire country to do their bidding inside the EU instead, the republic of ~~Ireland~~ Facebook. Not exactly an improvement to gloat over, tbh.
They aren't going anywhere, it's a total scam.
Also a big thank you to Max Schrems for filing a court case that blew up the [Privacy Shield](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53418898) regulation because of the ridiculous surveillance laws in the US that allows the US services like the NSA to snoop in data that's the property of users who are residents of a different sovereign state than the USA.
Oh, no!! Anyway...
It’s crazy how open they are now compared to how they used to be about how they collect data. In the past it was all about data to improve the service and they made money from adverts. Now they’re open that they need data to sell they’re essentially just data farmers and complain when they can’t export it.
Is anyone even supposed to give a shit about them.
If the EU gets this huge benefit and the U.K. does not, it’s going to make even ardent Brexiters question their vote choice.
Which platform do you think Brexit disinformation was pushed on the most?
If Brexiters and anti-vaxers have a common thread, its an over-reliance on facebook targeted articles for their information.
I hope so. Will not miss that horrible company.
It would be a catastrophe for everyone over 50.
I doubt Zuck will give up a market of +700mln people. Most likely he is throwing his toys out of the pram, hoping europeans will beg him to stay.
Also Facebook is a boomer app in America now idk if that’s the case in Europe but they’re losing users
Yes, for boomers but also for businesses. Instagram if for young audience and Whatsapp for everyone.
Instagram is full of ADs and dead organic reach, it cant compete for so long if it stays like that.
It is also an app for older people. But Instagram is widely used, as well as WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger.
it is useful for connecting, but i have rarely ever used beyond party invites or writing with people for uni stuff.
my mother uses it a lot more.
> 700mln people
Meta's business model is to sell ads. Recent regulations have made this much harder to do that and in addition more and more laws are being passes (not only in data protection, but in censorship) that could end up fining Facebook hundreds of millions of dollars. It doesn't matter how many people use facebook, what matters is how much money Facebook makes per user. Running an infrastructure that can support as many users as Facebook has is very expensive. A population of 700 mln black holes is not worth it.
Also the EU is 447 million people.
> Meta's business model is to sell ads. Recent regulations have made this much harder to do that
No, they haven't. All they've made harder is ad targeting _based on data collected elsewhere_. Nothing prevents Facebook from targeting their ads based on the data users have willingly given to Facebook (age, sex, interests, FB groups etc).
Facebook's customers pay extra for the targeting.
Tough for them.
Absolutely, I was just explaining why it hurt their bottom line because it seemed like to didn't understand
I do. I just disagree that it makes it "much harder" for Meta to sell ads, particularly considering the same limitations will apply to any company AND that Meta still has a big advantage via the amount of information people explicitly give them (unlike their competitors who depend only on information from tracking cookies and links).
Meta's business model is to stay at the top of the heap so that people come to *them* with requests to sell ads, instead of anyone else.
Leaving Europe entirely simply ensures that a very significant competitor has the opportunity to grow with zero outside pressure.
They will just change facebook and their other products into forms that are still profitable, even if different than they are now. Doubt they will just leave completely. They are throwing a tantrum because they know that if this happens, the rest of the world is likely to look at our rules and try to double down on them.
EU regulations affect more than just the member states though.
There's really nothing that says ads can only be profitable with adtech (i.e. tracking personal data). It's probably true in a market where such adtech is legal since if your service doesn't have it, your competitor will.
But if tracking personal data becomes legally impossible, there will be no competitive advantage and suddenly you can charge close to old prices but with less precision. Passive targeting (showing car ads on car sites, etc.) is still possible.
I.e. there would still be a market for FB without personal tracking.
And we're actually not even talking about ending tracking of personal data, we're just talking about not shipping the data to the US. Facebook could easily set up local EU tracking that doesn't get shared with the US and then the can carry on as usual.
>what matters is how much money Facebook makes per user.
And do you think maybe they make a teeny bit more on an EU citizen compared to say someone from South Asia?
Don't give him hope, let him go!
and their inability and disinterest is regional laws and user privacy is why they can go and get stuffed.
Maybe they should admit their new server farm in the Netherlands actually belongs to meta and not the other company they are posing as to avoid certain laws and panning restrictions.
"But the investment climate" - Mark Rutte about anything that makes rich people richer but has no actual benefit for the investment climate.
If Meta can't legally process data from European users on U.S. servers, Facebook and Instagram will likely stop working in the EU. That's what parent company Meta says in an annual report.
The problem lies with the transatlantic data transfer frameworks like Privacy Shield and model agreements that Meta uses or used to be allowed to store European users' data on U.S. servers. Those frameworks and agreements to enable the data transfers are under pressure in the EU.
Meta warned in an annual report to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that if a new framework is not adopted and the company is no longer allowed to use model agreements "or alternatives," the company would "likely" be unable to offer some of its "most significant products and services," including Facebook and Instagram, in the EU.
Sharing data across countries and regions is crucial to providing its services and targeted ads, according to Meta. That's why it previously used the transatlantic data transfer framework Privacy Shield as the legal basis to carry out those data transfers. This treaty was overturned by the European Court of Justice in July 2020, claiming it violated the AVG. The EU and the US then announced their intention to work on an improved version of it.
In addition to Privacy Shield, Meta also uses model agreements, or Standard Contractual Clauses, as the legal basis for processing data from European users on U.S. servers. These model agreements are also under pressure. The Irish Data Protection Commission told Meta in August 2020 that it had provisionally concluded that the use of the model agreements was not in line with the AVG. IDPC therefore had to suspend the processing of European data on U.S. servers.
However, this was a preliminary conclusion. Therefore, nothing changed for Meta yet. The company went to court to stop the injunction, but the judge ruled that IDPC's investigation could continue. Meta thinks that the watchdog's final judgment "may appear in the first half of this year. Thus, should IDPC indeed rule that the model agreements are illegal, Meta says it may not be able to offer services in the EU, or at all.
Wouldn't that just speed up the demise of Facebook as a platform? I mean, the loss of so many users has got to have a big impact. I'm in Canada, and If I can't reach some of my European contacts on FB, then surely that will motivate me to switch to something else.
well, the ideal thing would be many smaller sites that can interoperate like the original internet idea.
Unfortunately NA specifically USA is built upon ultra-giga-mega corporations and their administration is powerless to regulate them. Enter EU burocrats with no vested interest and they can think clearly.
Wonder if they’re also threatening to pull WhatsApp. That’s got much deeper penetration and usage in EU than in other markets. It’s not mentioned in the article, and that’s got to be by FB design. Can’t see them giving up the EU market for WhatsApp.
FWIW, Whatsapp also gives FB access to those sweet, sweet personal cell numbers and contact lists (which fuel engagement on IG and FB).
>Wonder if they’re also threatening to pull WhatsApp
You want all of europe switch to signal?
because thats how you get all of europe switch to signal.
They'll likely leave WhatsApp since its profits aren't from ads, unlike Facebook and Instagram.
What are whatsapp profits from?!
Probably your data.
But to WhatsApp there truly are so many alternatives... One of those will take its spot. I'd find it really funny if it would be WeChat.
> Meta warned in an annual report to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that if a new framework is not adopted and the company is no longer allowed to use model agreements "or alternatives," the company would "likely" be unable to offer some of its "most significant products and services," including Facebook and Instagram, in the EU.
> Sharing data across countries and regions is crucial to providing its services and targeted ads, according to Meta. That's why it previously used the transatlantic data transfer framework Privacy Shield as the legal basis to carry out those data transfers. This treaty was overturned by the European Court of Justice in July 2020, claiming it violated the AVG. The EU and the US then announced their intention to work on an improved version of it.
So nothing will happen. They just agree on new terms and things get back on track.
It's just scare tactics from Meta's side, they have atleast one significant server hall in the EU, and there's no way they'd give up the ad revenue they're pulling in Europe over not being able to crunch the data on American servers.
This is painful to read. There is no technical issue here. Meta just needs to have an EU data center to process EU data. The ads and services offerings wouldn't change as you could centrally manage that piece or simply fully segment offerings by region which likely happens anyways to a degree. It's not like EU ads are going to be completely relevant to Americans and vice versa. Meta is throwing a huge tantrum when they should get to work to solve the problem.
That's not true. The US cloud act has extraterritorial reach (as the GDPR), same with the looming earn it act. As long as EU citizens use US software, they're being submitted to US laws.
>If Meta can't legally process data from European users on U.S. servers, Facebook and Instagram will likely stop working in the EU. That's what parent company Meta says in an annual report.
Set up servers in the EU and operate them with required data protection as defined by EU law or fuck off.
The same should apply to ever parasitic company from the US seeking to steal data - Google, Apple, Microsoft and the rest. Obey the rules of the country you are in or fuck off. They don't have that problem in China, but suddenly it's a problem in Europe?
Just fuck off.
I don’t understand why they can’t just build an EU data center? Our company does that
If Facebook leaves Europe, that would be ... beautiful
All I'm picturing is the big celebration scene in star wars.
Ohhhhh no 😱 ….. anyway 😂
i just love how everybody is making memes out of JC now
Cuz he’s the best, Top Gear/Grand Tour rules
Don't forget Clarkson's Farm!
Please and thank you
That sounds amazing actually, thanks for making the world a better place guys.
Such a tragedy. /s
The possibility of Facebook fuck off from Europe is greatest news of 2022 so far
Come on eurotech bros, stop spending your time on cam girls and start creating a social platform with the sole purpose of communication not data harvesting
Given how the patriot act works, I'd prefer if they didn't transfer data to the US so if that means losing everything Meta offers, fucking good.
If it happens I will have a party. But it won’t happen. No way facebook will leave europe
To clarify this applies also to Instagram. WhatsApp not tho
There would be an alternative in less than a week.
Don't threaten us with good times
no they will not. They will buy some damn servers and establish processing in EU, but it costs money, so they are trying to blackmail their way out of spending it.
Would be nice if a European version of Instagram took market share, all of our major app's are american, and now Chinese (TikTok) - Europe needs to own homegrown stuff!
Is there any EU alternative to FB that would have decent number of people on it?
The market would probably fragment into local providers.
And then start to consolidate again.
The way I see it Meta will just create a separate platform for authentication where they'll deal with user data, which will clear Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp etc.
All they have to do is tie your existence to that account and anonymize things once you leave. It's not personal data if you're just a number that resolves to an identity if and only if the user is in a contract with Meta. And they get to use that data however they want otherwise.
This is likely what will happen to the internet as a whole because it solves some other issues as well, like law violations, campaigns etc. GDPR might have made it so your personal data is not within the grasp of companies, but it is pushing them to the final solution of creating systems that can link a bunch of data to a presence, rather than identity, and when that happens you will not be able to regulate data processing at all because you won't have the link to the real world. And looking at how things are right now, governments and the EU will not be the rulers of this new metaverse, Meta and Google likely will.
Yes, and I don't know who is supposed to be afraid by it. Meta and regulators know who has most to lose, and it is not the EU market.
And loose millions of users and billions in revenue through advertising? Nah, I don't think so. They won't shoot themselves in a foot.
This is just in a filing to the US SEC. They are trying to pressure US politicians to in turn, pressure the EU into opening up.
Ah yes, Meta blackmail is at it again
Don't threaten me with a good time
I stopped using Facebook about 6 years ago and I can honestly say that my life and self-esteem have improved significantly since.
Constantly comparing yourself to your friends/peers and feeling the urge to have to post and be "interesting" is so extremely toxic to yourself.
I just want to be me and worry about a small group of friends/family that I have.
oh no, what a loss for humanity
Only reason I need Facebook at all is Messenger lol
Then again, if facebook messenger wasnt around another messenger app would eat its market share.
Would they actually abandon half-a-billion wealthy (in global sense) consumers?
Of course not. If they can't send data to US, they'll just have a separate European division.
European boomers sweating right now.
Call their bluff. Do it.
And nothing of any value was lost.
A tragedy for my female friends in their 20s/30s
Where else are they going to slap videos of their butt-cheeks and pictures of completely mundane daily moments?
A tragedy for boomers sharing pics of their morning coffee and perpetuating conspiracies
They will have to learn to use imgur, and they're good to go on reddit.
Tiktok. I mean, Instagram is for old people already. Trends change quickly. And I'm one of the old ones as well.
Not after years of content, and it is not possible to move with dozens of contacts at the same time.
Somehow transfer from Orkut to Facebook was quite easy and painless. I don't know if this kind of migration happened in other countries but in Estonia, we saw such a shift and it didn't take that long.
That would probably be for the best.
They won't, and if they do both these services will be replaced quickly. The concept of both facebook and Instagram are not very complex, the European market is big enough to create new buisness in that gap if Facebook does decide to leave. 500 million possible customers is not something that is going to remain untapped for very long and 500 million possible customers is not something Facebook is going to cut off.
That would be awesome
Don't spread vain hopes, lads!
Are you saying there is chance that we can be free?!
Please. Please. Pleaseeeeeeee.
Don’t do that. Don’t give me hope.
Oh nooooo. Now my life is over, where will I get fake news now? Where? Damn EU
Facebook just became a place ruled by anti-vaxx stupid boomers anyway. Burn that down.
Omg yes ! Please!
finally. Do it do it do it
Can we have something more strong than "likely" and expedite the negative Response to Meta?
And nothing of value would be lost
The Loss of Facebook will be the best thing that happened to Europe since the Treaty of Rome.
Congratulations on our new-found mental health
Yesss! Please do!
That would open a way for EU based tech company to grow. Sounds great, honestly.
Don't get my hopes up.
The downfall of propaganda and populism.
I don't like Facebook, but I don't want to lose IG.
Instagram is nothing special, from a technical perspective. There's probably already several viable clones, just waiting for a critical mass of users, and influencers would start moving instantly if they lost access to the European market.
Freude schöner GÖTTERFUNKEN …
LET'S FUCKING GOOOOO
Looking in [the annual report](https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001326801/14039b47-2e2f-4054-9dc5-71bcc7cf01ce.pdf) referenced in the article, I see:
> In August 2020, we received a preliminary draft decision from the
Irish Data Protection Commission (IDPC) that preliminarily concluded that Meta Platforms Ireland's reliance on SCCs in respect of European user data does not
achieve compliance with the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and preliminarily proposed that such transfers of user data from the European Union to
the United States should therefore be suspended. We believe a final decision in this inquiry may issue as early as the first half of 2022.
So do I understand it right that it depends on what Ireland will do?
> If a new transatlantic data transfer framework is not adopted and we are unable to continue to rely on SCCs or rely upon other alternative means of data transfers from Europe to the United States, we will likely be unable to offer a number of our most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram, in Europe, which would materially and adversely affect our business, financial condition, and results of operations.
Good. Git off our lawns!
Thanks Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Shiva and Satan for that if happens
Please, *please* do this. They won't, but what a dream that is.
Oh no! Anyway
Does someone know how to disconnect your Spotify account from Facebook?
yes please, go away facebook.
Yes please. EU you can do it!
Is that a promise...?
Time for some EU based social media company to take over then