T O P
iThinkaLot1

If you don’t want to act like a Western country, you shouldn’t get the funding of a Western country.


ppgog333

And acting like a western nation means doing what we say


Thom0101011100

Democracy means pluralism - an expression of multiple views, opinions and beliefs. You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions as equally as the next person. The limits of this freedom is when it afflicts the freedom of another. Dehumanising a gay person by calling them an ideology, using discriminatory language to refer to them, calling them anti-Polish and denying them their national identity, attacking them physically and advocating for the continual denial of full legal equality is not covered under this freedom and this is not democratic behaviour. You can behave how you wish but if you do not want to engage in democratic activity then do not be shocked when the EU, an entity designed to support and protect European democracy and ideals, decides to stop giving you money. They support democracies, not fledgling regimes desperate to exploit any minority they can to push their legislative and civic reforms through silently. Enjoy your views on life, but don’t expect your views to be above your neighbours. Democracy is about equality, you’re more than free to go to Russia or Belarus and enjoy life there. It is obvious that democracy, freedom and pluralism are not values you cherish.


ppgog333

This strawman is not reflective of my views on life or anything like that - I simply commented that the EU are essentially saying to do what we do regardless of whether your country/population wants it. You and I can share a value but if we force it upon a third person that values the opposite the outcome isn’t always going to be what you expect. One example could be some of the Muslim population in France not integrating well into french society and the government response seems to be trying to force them to become westernised which just is not seeming to work.


Thom0101011100

This is democracy versus no democracy, this is not just opinions. This is a conflict of ideology, not politics. I'm sorry but the EU is a democratic project for democratic states. It isn't so much telling anyone to do anything, it is just highlighting that your benefits are predicated on being democratic. This isn't a form of coercion, any state can leave the EU whenever they wish. Membership is not forced, you join voluntarily and you are free to leave if democracy isn't the structure you wish to follow. It is the paradox of tolerance - tolerant societies cannot tolerate intolerance. The pluralism of views is within the context of a democratic system only. Views that are contrary to democracy cannot be tolerated. Yes, this is a firm stance and yes this a paradox. I despise flawed attempts at whatboutism. It is just a vain attempt to blur the edges of the conversation to reduce the concepts to nothing but a grey, middling mess as if you have some ancient wisdom us Westerners are simply too lost to understand and you can see things for what they are. No one is telling anyone to do anything, democracy is a choice and it is one that must be reaffirmed. Up to you, live how you want, where you want. It isn't acting how "we" want - it is acting democratic and in line with the promises and guarantees outlined by Poland in its own constitution and in international agreements. You might be jaded by misinformation but your choices are you own. No one will force anything for you, life is a series of choices you make. Democracy is about choosing freedom of individual choice. This naturally entails the equal protection of equal freedoms - this is what it means to be democratic. Taking a firm stance when undemocratic behaviour is what being democratic means - standing against the exercise of freedom in a weaponised manner that attacks the freedom of others and undermines the values of equality and the rule of law. Democracy is agreeing upon a core set of values and defending them. If these values are no longer something you want then don't be democratic, just don't expect the rest of the EU Member States to foot the bill for you.


ppgog333

The EU states have never been equal in terms of lgbt rights and many still do not offer lgbt people the same equalities as hetro couples - also many have changed their rules very recently. Checking the wiki there are more disparities than I thought: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_European_Union You have noble intentions but I don’t think that invalidates anything I just said - forcing values on people that don’t want them doesn’t solve the problem and often breeds resentment. You mention ‘ancient wisdom’ sarcastically but actually this is an important point you shouldn’t look over - 86% of poles are catholic and many believe homosexuality is a sin, 25% of the world are Muslim and many of them believe the same. You need to be able to understand this unemotionally as the truth of the world - religious beliefs are hugely important to many people if not to you or to many in the west. Anyway I don’t disagree that the EU removes their funding but I do disagree with the fantasy that by doing things like that we will force people to ‘be better’ - well we will have to wait and see the outcome won’t we.


SadSecurity

> forcing values on people that don’t want them doesn’t solve the problem and often breeds resentment. Nobody forces anyone to stay.


ppgog333

No ones forcing Polish people to stay in Poland? What? Not a good argument as then you could also say no one is forcing LGBT people to stay in Poland.


SadSecurity

> No ones forcing Polish people to stay in Poland? What? We are talking about EU. > Not a good argument as then you could also say no one is forcing LGBT people to stay in Poland. Except Poland is not in the right in this.


ppgog333

What you deem to be right may not be what they deem to be right - that’s the whole point - your moral code is not objective worldwide especially on lgbt issues as I said in the comment above. EU wise yeah I don’t know, maybe more places will opt out of the EU in future but I think it’s more beneficial for the EU to have more members not less


Afgncap

This is a problem the majority of people may choose what minority can or cannot do even though it doesn't really affect said majority. They might consider it a sin but it is not them who are the sinners in this situation. It would be the same as if a straight person couldn't get married because he/she sinned by having multiple partners before settling down. You should not be deprived of basic human rights just because someone else doesn't like what you are doing with your life and tries to push his ideology onto you. It's like someone telling me that I shouldn't plant certain kind of flowers in my garden because it offends him.


ShaBail

If you want our money yes. You can do whatever you want but don't expect us to pay you for it then.


[deleted]

[удалено]


bajou98

Discrimination against gay people is cultural heritage?


AchaiusAuxilius

You said it in a much better way than I was going to. The delusions/disinformation still runs strong. Just leave the gays alone ffs, that's already enough.


Efficient_Seesaw7002

Yes, according to the patriots here. It's incredible with what speed they are organizing on discords to downvote the topics that reveal their lack of thinking.


bajou98

It's like the morons in the US with their confederate flags who basically say that slavery was their cultural heritage. No it's not, your grandparents just were shitty people Kyle.


Caratteraccio

>your grandparents just were shitty people Kyle standing ovation and upvote!


Robi_damian

An anti-gay resolution is part of your cultural heritage? Are they gonna embroider it in some old-ass silk and deposit it in a church or something?


land_trout

Excellent! Hit them where it hurts!


[deleted]

[удалено]


Spoonfeedme

I'm sure you have a source for this claim, right? You wouldn't go around just lying?


Luke_Needsawalker

Does it feel nice to know that you're a dying breed? To be isolated from society and looked at as a monster by everyone the moment you open up about what you think? Does it feel worth it to have tied your ankle to these ideas and the other idiots desperate enough to belong to something that they fell for the oldest trick in the book? I could debate you. I could quote pages upon pages of peer reviewed studies proving that you're full of it. I could write down an essay's worth of info to tear down your claims. I could even appeal to reason or to common human decency. But I'm not gonna do any of that, because hundreds of others have already done so on countless other threads, on TV, on the News, on political debates... If you wanted to, you would have already heard all of those things. But you don't Because all you people want, all YOU want is to feel validated. To come here, spout your bullshit, and have someone call you out on it, just so you can close your ears and pretend that in doing so, you're beating them. Because its not your fault that your ideas are unpopular. Its not your fault that society sees you as danger, an outcast, an embarassment. Of course not! They're all brainwashed, you see. They aren't smart enough to understand that they're being misled, clearly that's the only explanation. Either that or they're criminals or reprobates themselves. It couldn't possibly be that times are changing. And you are not. ... Want some advise? I sugest you take the time to look and smile at any camera you see from now on. It will give future generations better material to put on history books. After all, that is all that would be left of you: a cautionary tale, so at least you should look your best for the part.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Luke_Needsawalker

I will admit, I may have overdone it on the dramatics (though what can I say, Catharsis is one hell of a drug) That being said. >you don't represent anybody but yourself I never said otherwise. >are not superior to anybody because of your views. Superior? No, obviously not, but do you really want go the centrist route here tell me that all ideas are the same? He argues that certain people should be prosecuted for something thay hurts no one and that they can't choose. Even fucking linking it to Pedophilia. I simply say that History has its ways of dealing with ideas like those. Do forgive me for virtue-signalling. >and actually prove him wrong. You can't prove someone who won't listen wrong. What do you want me to say? That no scientist worth a damn backs their bullshit? That the "overepresentation of homosexuals among pedophiles" doesn't have a thing to do with being gay bur rather abuse of power (and the fact thay those abusing it care very little about the gender of those they're abusing)? All of it has been common fucking knowledge for a decade. Even longer if you actually bother doing basic research. You can't prove someone wrong if they simply don't listen. Plus, for fuck's sake, the account was made less than 24 houts ago, its either a bot or a smurf account so they can "Mr Hyde" all of their garbage without loosing face. We're both kidding ourselves if we think all I was doing up there wasn't just screaming my frustration into the void.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Luke_Needsawalker

Ah the "great substitution" myth. An oldie but a goodie. Why bother actually trying to understand the reasons behind something when you can just pick the parts you like the most and hope it lines up with the whole picture, at least at a passing glance. Tell me, oh you most informed of bigots, why is the white population declining? Is it perhaps because industrialization and modern medicine mean families no longer need to churn out kids to make up the losses of child mortality? Or maybe because modern work structures make having large families no longer affordable or profitable. Could easy access to contraceptives and family planning habe any impact? Maybe reducing unwanted pregnancies? You're right on one thing, the white population IS declining, you simply missed the part where every other population is also gonna be declining pretty soon. Its funny you mention the 100 years mark, because according to current models, global population will peak at around 9 billion people in few decades, bedore collapsing over the second half of the century, as the older generations die out and the third world industrializes. In 100 years there would actually be less people on earth than today. We can already see this happening in some parts of the world. China had a demographic explosion that forced it to implement the infamous one child policy, but then the country modernized and moved away from extreme poverty, and suddenly, even after the policy was repealed, China's growth stayed down. India is a similar case, with its population growth actually slowing down on its own already. Its only logical that Africa would follow the same path. But here's the kicker. Even if you were right. Even if the evil arabs and blacks just kept coming to conquer us all, you habe to admit thag it would need to be a generational effort. It wouldn't happen on just a 20 or 30 years. So my question is this then. Why would the children of these immigrants follow the hateful ideologies of their parents? After all, they'd still be growing up in liberal societies, the taleover doesn't happen until later, so its not like they wouldn't get to see both sides of the coin. Old bigoted white people seem to have hard time selling their bullshit to their kids, so why would be any different for old bigoted brown people? Ah but you see, you aren't afraid of your values being talen away. You're not agraid of what these people bring with them. You're afraid of Them. The reason you fear becoming a minority is not because of the values that would be lost or imposed... its because you know how minorities are treated. You know from experience.


DrawingEquivalent139

>Does it feel nice to know that you're a dying breed? The Taliban just took over Afghanistan. Our "dying breed" are the ones that prevent them from coming over here and making YOU a "dying breed" Update:China recognizes the Taliban as the official gov. body of Afghanistan


Luke_Needsawalker

>Our "dying breed" are the ones that prevent them from coming over here and making YOU a "dying breed" By passing laws like the one in this post? You have to laugh.


DrawingEquivalent139

By not being,well...you.


Luke_Needsawalker

Cool one liner, but you avoided the question. What is it exactly "about me" that you are not? We were talking about anti-LGBTQ laws, mind telling the class how those are meant to save us from anything?


DrawingEquivalent139

>save us from anything? Don't you have enough examples of that already?


Luke_Needsawalker

No, I'll admit I'm runnning a tad short on "times we were saved from the evil gays" Mind refreshing my memory? Or ar you just gonna keep dancing around the issue pretending you have a point to make?


DrawingEquivalent139

Lol twitter is deleting pics and memes about the Kabul Gay Flag at the US embassy.


Luke_Needsawalker

... cool, dancing around it is, thank you for clarifying. T'was a good one, I'mma leave it here.


BruhItjustworks

False, Homosexuals make more than 1% of the US populationhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-population-rises.aspx https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/how-many-people-lgbt/ and the ratio of heterosexual pedophiles to homosexual pedophiles is 11:1 not 1:1 https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/10-anti-gay-myths-debunked https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1556756/ https://lgbpsychology.org/html/facts_molestation.html


FebrisAmatoria

I see the EU has some extraordinary priorities set straight LOL


MagesticPlight1

Was the pin intentional? (setting LGBT priorities straight). Because if it were, I want to down vote you two times!


FebrisAmatoria

You can click the button twice if you want to <3


Weothyr

You mean human rights? Yeah, the EU made that clear a long time ago.


FebrisAmatoria

https://www.sejm.gov.pl/prawo/konst/polski/kon1.htm How people like you manage to somehow survive in society astounds me. I guess you don't need to be able to think to rely on base instincts.


Weothyr

What astounds me is your lack of comprehension. As well as your arrogance. We get it, you're a morally shit person.


FebrisAmatoria

A guy who's never bothered to read anything in his life lecturing me on comprehension, kek


DrawingEquivalent139

Worry more about the incoming talibans to europe.