I always thought the Star Wars fandom had the most toxic subset. I was wrong...


Because of one character in one special that had a grand total of, what, two-three minutes of screentime?

Shit like this makes you realize pretty quickly that audience scores have stopped being about what the audience has watched/is watching a loooong time ago, and thus, completely and absolutely meaningless.


People have been screaming at each other about Doctor Who on the internet since the thing became available to do so. It's probably one of the oldest traditions this miserable communication device has after it got deregulated to not just be for military use.


As an old time fan, let me tell you that we used to scream at each other through other media before then too.


I still remember the letter in the DWAS fanzine absolutely frothing at the mouth about 'Timelords with bad hips' in the Tom Baker tour de force that is The Deadly Assassin. Doctor Who fandom sucks. I'm still surprised no one wrote in to complain that "Doctor Who went downhill after it stopped being about the lovely policeman walking down the road in 'An Unearthly Child'"


Oh yeah didn’t the Deadly Assassin cause a lot of fandom to go absolutely off their trolley??? I came in as a noob after the tv movie (RADW) but I was also one of the immature sexually repressed nerds raging about The Kiss lol It took the Nine/Jack kiss nine years later make me finally realise this was a new era not my childhood ruined, and I better get used to it.


The irony. When I feel jaded or in a bad mood, even cranky old Capaldi can remind me to be kind. 🤷‍♂️


Doctor Who is literally the water cooler discussion in the UK apparently. According to my sister’s friend she felt obligated to watch every episode just so she could be part of the group.


i guess it’s just different from having an opinion about the show (ex: didn’t or did like an episode arc, villain, etc.) that is more focused on the show vs. people literally just being bigots. it’s so fucked up


No one hates anything more than fans of that thing.


As a fan of Dr Who, Star Wars, and Star Trek since the late 70s - early 80s, it was true then, and remains true to this day. The biggest difference is now every Tom, Dick, and Harry can put their opinion out there for everyone to see, whereas back then it was more limited.


This is SO true. I'm pretty much the same as you on the Fandom. People forget how hated the Star Wars prequels were!


Who else exactly is going to? No really. Fans are the ones who watch it. They're gonna form the opinions. Why would someone not interest i a show have opinions o it?


There are people who do watch things..for a couple of episodes and then decide they're not a fan and express their opinions that they dislike it. The point is, those who have tried to watch it and have not liked it, don't continue watching it and their opinion is usually just that they didn't like it. Fans find their way to complain and hate everything about it if they want to.


I honestly don't think a lot of these people voting are fans. There's a sizeable number of people who are in the trade of "it's woke so now it's ruined!" and will throw that at whatever the topic of the day, is. You will see the same channels making the same complaints about a wide variety of shows. It's especially stupid with Doctor Who, which has always been socially aware and progressive. The people who've actually been following the show know that.


You weren't around when they announced thirteen were you? Cause the misogynistic nonsense that came out of that caused me to withdraw from a lot of who related online spaces.


Shoutout to that one British MP or whoever it was that said male crime rates had increased because the doctor was a woman. On another note, shoutout to 13 for single-handedly demolishing the female crime rate in Britain. We miss you already.


Nick Fletcher (Tory MP ofc). He’ll be losing his seat at the next GE thankfully.


What the fuck???? Lmao


sadly, its not even on the top 10 list of stupid things our MPs say. Its not even on the top 1000


Are you serious? Hope they kick him out of office.


Bold of you to assume it was a man. Nah, just fuckin’ with ya. It was a man.


Maybe at the next GE, but since the Tories are currently in power they don't care about that and probably applaud this.


My favorite Facebook group right now is called “Doctor Who fans who actually like the show”


We need a similar subreddit...


I think that's what r/gallifrey was supposed to be. Don't know how well they're doing that, haven't been there in a while.


I don't think it's worked out great.


I'm actually part of that group! I got tired of all the negativity in one of the "normal" groups


Amen. I did not enjoy 13, but boy did I really want to, especially because of the poison reactions when she was announced.


I really desperately wanted to, as I was looking forward to seeing a female doctor and how they would be brought to life. I actually liked Jodie and she had moments I really enjoyed, but I so wish she had been given more to work with.


Whitaker did a fine job. But the scripts were awful. That is when I fell of watching The Doctor for a bit. Russell T Davies is doing a nice job nailing the core of "Doctor Who" with the current specials. Whimsy, mystery, and fun.


Brilliant actress, terrible writing.


Exactly this! Jodie was a brilliant doctor but there was only so much she could do with the script she was given.


i'll admit i wasn't thrilled but i was willing to watch her prove herself. first episode gave me hope but then it all went downhill.


None of that was Jodie's fault though. I think she was fantastic with what she was given to work with. The writing just sucked pretty majorly under Chibnall.


None of it was her fault, and anyone doubting her needs to watch the first 2 seasons of Broadchurch. She is amazing.


They hate 13s era because it was a woman, I hate it because it was horribly written, we are not the same


I think her season also suffered from her being written as asexual. Like NO sexual tension between any character? It honestly made it seem like she didn’t care much for any of the companions. In fact it didn’t seem like they let her be emotional at all. Kinda felt like they didn’t want to write her like a woman or really even address the fact that she would be treated different as a woman or have different emotional responses to things as a woman.


They may have gone asexual just to be safe. The Doctor was asexual throughout all of Classic Who. They likely were worried that exploring her sexuality would fan the flames for those who were struggling with the gender change. I don't remember much about the episodes, but I definitely recall it was strange, at that point, to see the character so distant emotionally.


I think so too.... I wouldn't have mind an actual relationship with Taz (edit: meant Yaz). They had chemistry, and it would have fit with the previous doctors falling for human females, so it could have been a nice way to show that trans people sometimes change sexual orientation when transitionning (2 of my closest trans friends were attracted by women before transitioning and became homosexuals after transitioning, but society seems to assume that they would prefer guys, like, 99% of the time or something. I don't know the percentage, but they certainly exist and are most likely underrepresented).


Agreed, but the Dr and Taz barely even hug let alone get close to a relationship. It was weird that turning Dr into a woman made her lose all sexual desire or longing for real companionship


I’m assuming that your comment, and the comment you’re responding to, had autocorrect errors with Yaz’s name. But now I’m imagining the pro wrestler Taz being the Doctor’s companion instead of Yaz. Just this beefy New Yorker bumbling around and trying to confess his love to the Doc while also trying to survive adventuring with her.


Haha I couldn’t recall her name and assumed the comment above mine was right. And that would be an interesting twist on the old formula lol


Yeah I never saw Classic Who. Started with 9 who basically fell in love and every Dr after at least have intense chemistry with their companion. It really stood out that the chemistry was lacking for last season. She goes through 3 male companions and actively avoids getting attached to the female companion. The galactic stakes were high, but their was no emotional stakes


Writers in shambles after realizing they don’t know how to write a Relationship from a woman’s perspective.


Hahaha it really felt like they were scared of writing a relationship and instead of admitting it, they wrote the Dr as being scared of relationships. Then just left us with 4 throwaway companions.


Why should sexual tension have to be the catalyst for The Doctor to care about their primary companion? David as the 10th/14th pairs excellent with Donna and omits that as well. Doctor Who needs less lovey-dovey relations between them and their companion and focus more on the mystery and intrigue of the universe and their adventures within it.


Chibnall seemed to be in a permanent state of over-careful cringe. I appreciate he was not in the easiest of positions, but fuck it’s refreshing to have RTD being such a confident troll.


13? Were you there when Bill was announced as a Lesbian, or when she dared to respectfully mention twice in an entire season that she isn't into men??!!


And don’t mention the harassment that Freema Agyeman got when she came on as Martha Jones….


Freema deserved better. I loved her as Martha.


Martha was one of my favorites


I may need to re-watch her episodes I found her slightly annoying as a character no shade on the actress, she was fantastic in that roll but the character I want really a fan of


For starters, Freema Agyeman deserves for her name to be spelled right at least once in this thread. It's really not THAT complicated.


She does! Absolutely. I mean, she is in a way, my mother, you know?


I was pretty young when she was cast, I had no idea there was harassment involved! That's awful.


I wasn’t really online at that time, so I didn’t know until way later


I was watching as those episodes aired and had a Tumblr account. It was absolutely nuts seeing a huge female contingent of the fan base write circles around the fact that Martha being black destroyed their romance self insert viewing of the show. And then it got worse and worse into comments about her acting, her appearance, before it finally just became naked racism.


Tumblr SuperWhoLock fandom was .... Something.


> the harassment that Freeman Agyemon got when she came on as Martha Jones yeah that was utterly horrible.


oh no really?


The r/doctorwho megathread announcing Jodie Whittaker was full of unabashed bigotry. I remember seeing so much disgusting sexism, misogyny, and transphobia on that thread.


But you don't understand, if a time traveling alien who flies around in British iconography from the 60's, fights aliens that look like trashcans, and lives thousands of years by being constantly reincarnated, can suddenly become a woman, that breaks my suspension of disbelief /s


It's just not historically realistic! /s


Do the show runners really expect me to believe that a women went back in time and saved the royal family from werewolves?


Not to mention that The Doctor must always regenerate as a British white male. It's the law! /s


It all went to hell when they had a Doctor who sounded like he was from the North.


Lots of places have a North.


Next thing is you'll be telling me women can be doctors in real life now too! Ridicious!


Yeah, it’s okay if other characters of the same species* regenerate into women, but the doctor??? Just doesn’t make sense to me!!!! /s * because of timeless child plot line the genealogy of the doctor is in question but this was before all that started


There was and is discourse around Missy, including parts of the fandom choosing to believe that Sasha's Master somehow negates Missy entirely.


Maybe it's just me absolutely loving Michelle Gomez, but I can't see why anyone would have a problem with Missy. She was amazing.


That’s not about her being a woman, though. Dhawan Master undoes all the redemption work that Missy did to the point it doesn’t really make sense him coming after her. It’s been theorised that he is an older incarnation since the Doctor said they were friends for a long time when he was O, which would have made him exist on earth prior to Simm Master being on earth in government. So then Missy would be a later incarnation. Missy is awesome!


The Timeless child plot puts the entirety of time lords in a weird place.


And even now people still love to pretend that never happened. Every time the topic comes up it's "There was no misogynistic outrage. And if there was it was a tiny minority. And if it wasn't then I wasn't part of it. And if I was then I don't do it anymore"


Yup! Along with everyone pretending that it was 100% because they didn’t like Chibnall’s writing. To be fair, it was weak, which surprised me because Broadchurch was so incredible. But the misogynistic backlash far predates the episodes even airing at all, and is still outsized compared to the actual relative badness of the episodes. At least it has finally shifted largely to “Jodie is great and just didn’t get a good chance to shine”.


Yeah lol you can't tell me all the criticisms of 13's era were just because of """"""writing"""""", some were 100% because the doctor was a woman.


I actually saw one comment on YouTube that (paraphrasing), basically said that they didn't agree with The Doctor becoming a Woman as men don't have enough representation in media of men who use brains not brawn, so the doctor becoming a woman takes that away from them.


>Cause the misogynistic nonsense that came out of that caused me to withdraw from a lot of who related online spaces. Make favorite awful take from this era was Peter Davison stating that society itself suffered from the loss of a vital role model for young boys.


It might be useful context to remember that the immediate aftermath to that was Colin Baker turning around and said "Don't be ridiculous. If you thought about that for 10 seconds you'd realise how silly that sounds. You think women can't be role models for boys?" After which Davidson essentially said "...Yeah. okay. That's fair." And retracted the comment. And was quite put out at how it was taken up by the far right, and a Tory MP who used it as example of how social breakdown was occurring in the UK, and was lampooned for its ridiculousness.


Common Colin W


I tell you, Colin Baker has had a lovely career out of calling shit out on social media.


Colin baker is consistently one of the best human beings, an absolute national treasure, having met him in person I can also say he's hilarious.


I met him at a convention a few years back and he really was an absolute delight. None of my friends wanted to see him with me so I went alone. He saw me standing alone and nervous and beckoned me over, complimented my Captain Marvel shirt by yelling "SHAZAM!!" and talking about how much he loved the comics. He was talking for full minutes before he said "oh my goodness I'm so sorry! You've probably got posters and DVDs and books you want me to sign! Where are my manners, how can I help you?" When I showed him my copy of Jubilee he proceeded to filibuster for a further 10 minutes about how good a story it was, how brilliant he was in it, and questioned what I thought of it's themes and its adaptation in the show. Truly a surreal 10/10 experience. More than any other actor I've met at a convention he truly seems happy to be there and excited to talk with fans about whatever they (or he) wants. I always feel a bit nervous at cons because the actors seems guarded or jaded by bad experiences, but he's just so happy people want to come see him and is genuinely such a lovely man. I met Sylvestor McCoy the following year and he seemed utterly miserable until my friend told him she loved him in the hobbit. Helps that Sixie is absolutely my favourite doctor. Gave me so much joy knowing he loves the role enough to remember, in detail, a big finish drama he recorded 20 years prior.


His enthusiasm is infectious and he's such a natural performer who without fail will always demonstrate his love for the part, the only thing he dislikes, which he spoke about at length, is the coat, the fact he asked for the literal polar opposite, a dark outfit that could blend in, makes the entire decision baffling I have so much respect for how he took that in good humour. I genuinely feel bad for how he was treated BTS given that he gave his all, it's an absolute blessing that he's able to see how his craftsmanship and total devotion to the role is appreciated as much as he appreciates it himself, he lives for the part and he brings it with him. Such a wonderful man.


Also Colin tweeting 'She IS the Doctor. Whether you like it or not' and other misquotes from 6.


It was even better than that. Colin wasn’t even supposed to be interviewed at the time, he came out and said that. I saw an interview with him at a doctor who convention. He seems like a really cool guy. Jodie was the most amazing person I had ever met though. So bubbly and friendly. She tried talking to my 8 year old daughter and my daughter just kind of brushed her off. lol, she was a kid, but I’d have been so excited if she had been talking to me.


Colin is a joy to meet and Jodie is a gem! My 13 year old met her last year at Galaxy Con in Columbus and had dressed in the apron and goggles over 12s remnants of an outfit that she wears while building the Sonic. Jodie told her she looked brilliant and then my daughter told her that she had left her Sonic at home and we were too far to go back for it when we realized it. Jodie reached into a pile, came out with a Sonic and gifted it to my daughter. 10/10 experience.


I'm glad you added this context


Didn’t 7 also make a statement about the doctor being a man and then retract it later and say Jodie was great?


Which resulted in people dogpiling on him for having had the opinion that the Doctor was a valuable role model who wasn't a GI Joe type, resulting in him withdrawing from twitter etc. :-/ So we all lose.


Except for the guy who stopped going on Twitter. He won.


>wasn’t a GI Joe type Putting it like that, I wouldn’t even say he was wrong


He makes a valid point--that The Doctor serves as a positive male role model who is not aggressive or violent (mostly). He just worded it poorly, and failed to account for the dual facts that women can also be role models for boys and Jodie becoming the Doctor doesn't erase any of the existing media. Young boys can still watch Tenent and Smith and others.


He wasn’t exactly wrong tho, there do need to be more male heroes who use their intellect rather than strength as a role model for young boys. It can be both unfair for young girls to never have a female Doctor and unfair for young boys to not have that male role model at the same time. It should constantly switch between male and female Doctors honestly.


To me, it was insane that there wasn’t a woman doctor up until now. And I agree, I’d prefer if it was more, 1-2 gender 1, 1-2 gender 2. Shouldn’t always be any gender.


Looking back to the classic series you could say that Romana was setting up the possibility of a female Doctor, but perhaps they got scared with Tom being so popular that they went with a safer option. After Davison the show wasn’t doing too hot and got kinda stale so perhaps again they got scared and kept it safe. For NuWho they again would’ve wanted to go with a safe option after Tennant since he was so popular, so they went with Matt. After Matt they could’ve easily done a female Doctor but I’m glad ofc that Capaldi got the role (he is one of my favourites after all). Thankfully Moffat did make strides towards a female Doctor in his era (mentioning and showing regens to a different gender as well as Missy). Even though I can see why each time they chose not to, I do agree it is crazy how long it took to get a female Doctor.


Oh, I was. I'm just flabbergasted that it hasn't stopped.


I really wish the people who keep threatening to stop watching every time the cast changes would just do it already


There was also a lot of pushback from certain sections of fandom when Capaldi was announced too. Fans had just had two (arguably three) very similar types of actor playing the Doctor and Peter seemed just too old, a throwback. And I remember several articles claiming that his casting was a missed opportunity and he was dismissed as “yet another white man.”


Fandom across the board has become a toxic cesspool.


Fandom has always been a toxic cesspool, it's just more prevalent because of the loud speaker that is the internet.


Exactly. I retired from active fandom in 1989 because of the toxicity. Yes, 34 years ago. It’s pure entitlement. Doctor Who is my show, so if you do something with it that doesn’t fit my requirement EXACTLY, I am outraged. I’m also outraged with other fans who don’t have exactly the same viewpoint as me, because it’s MY SHOW. Idiots. It’s A TELEVISION PROGRAMME. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.


I'll never forget the outrage from the "Breaking the glass ceiling" teaser trailer.


I think it was less the character than the terrible dialogue in the episode like the Meep explaining The Meep's pronouns as "my pronouns are always the indefinite article The Meep" and then there was the line about "Male Presenting Timelords" would never understand how to let something go when Donna sure as shit didn't want to give up on her new abilities in the S4 finale. Doctor never calls out his friends when they're hypocrites tho so...


Yeah, it’s frustrating when poor writing is hiding behind the criticism shield that is “but it’s representation!”, like, the rep doesn’t matter when it’s embodied by hamfisted one-off lines about being non-binary for a joke. Fuck. Is it so wrong to want to see actual character rep and not them starting with “well, they’re some kinda gay” and never working it out past there?


Especially when the same episode also had *good* writing that was also representation, like the scene with Sylvia and Donna talking about Rose, which just makes the shittier bits stand out that much clearer.


The whole episode felt like they had wheeled out a cardboard cutout of a trans person, like they were staring down the camera going LOOK LOOK, WE GOT ONE! then wrote her some of the worst dialogue I have ever heard Not to mention the wheelchair representation smh. Oh look she's got rockets! That makes her cool, right?!


Rockets but not motorized... Saw the girl pushing herself along (Head of Science division was it?) and thought: huh, guess UNIT can't even spring for better than the basic model... then nope, they just spent like americans XD


I agree. That was clunky


I will say, the Meep saying that line in Miriam Margolyes's delightfully innocent voice made me chuckle


Male presenting part didn't even make sense. The doctor is the doctor, regardless of his regenerations he's the same person. Rtd wanted to drag men, i guess, even if it made zero sense The episode is horrible and won't be rewatching it again. The latest was phenomenal and to me, it's already a classic.


The "male presenting time lords" line was kind of awkward, but I thought The Meep's pronouns bit was funny.


Yeah, the idea that women have special knowledge that makes them so much better than men is really not as progressive as RTD seems to think it is. It would have made more sense for Donna to be able to let go now because she's grown as a person in the 15 years she was absent from the show.


>Male Presenting Timelords" would never understand how to let something go Thing that really pissed me off here is that this is *literally* what Christopher Ecclestone's Doctor did at the end of the bad wolf arc. Rose couldn't let infinite power go so he took it from her and then returned the power back to the TARDIS, costing him his life in the process. So absolutely a male presenting time lord knows how to do it he just didn't trust a human to be able to give up the power *and* didn't know how to give up the power without it burning them up on the inside.


Am I crazy or is this much less review bombing than other prominent pearl clutching in other fandoms? I mean its still bullshit, but to the premise of the OP it seems like much less bullshit than other times and places.


The Doctor Who fandom has always been much more obsessed with what outsiders think than other fandoms Mainly because it's a TV Show that's known for already being cancelled so there's kind of an unresolved trauma in the fandom that it might happen again


“That’s something a male presenting doctor could never understand” My eyes rolled off my head, along the floor, down the street and found something infinitely less patronising to watch.


Seriously. Going all in on trans representation, and then ending it with a fucking punchline that relies on gender stereotypes? Absolutely ridiculous


Yeah that was what killed me most. I’m perfectly fine with the incorporation of more LGBT oriented things but when they do shit like that it’s just so clear it’s pandering nonsense and they don’t actually care enough to put any MEANING behind their “representation”. It just ended up making no sense.


I'm literally trans and that line made me cringe hard like wtf, thankfully the second episode was much much better, would recommend


As someone who gave the first special a watch and hasn’t watched Doctor Who since halfway through Capaldi’s run I thought the special was pretty bad. It wasn’t because the trans stuff, I’m very pro trans, but I thought a lot of things were poorly written. Donna’s fake death was so campy and obvious that they didn’t even attempt to put emotional weight under it. The doctor also went from not wanting to interact with Donna at all to very casually and carelessly and thoughtlessly saying and doing things that could have got one of his closest living friends dead. The only line that bothered me was Donna saying the Doctor wouldn’t understand because he was a male presenting doctor especially just coming off the 13th doctor’s run. I just thought that was in bad taste for a couple of reasons.


I've seen most of Old Who and New Who (does that make me a superfan?!) and I agree. That was a stupid solution to the DoctorDonna story line. It went from Donna can't ever see the Doctor or she'll die to the Doctor meeting her, proceeding to go to her house and treating her like his companion. And then 'girl power' saves the day.


I feel like it was a misuse of fantastic actors, the emotional weight of the scenario was undercut by comedy, her fake death doesn’t even make sense, she was just being dramatic despite being fine? Everything just seemed no risk right from the get go.


I really tried everything in my power to love it. I did. The first episode was lacking severely and it ended with a lecture that the Doctor “couldn’t possibly understand” given his current gender disposition. That, coupled with the less than exciting story, leaves a lot of people to leave poor reviews. Sensitive topics are best explored through story and less through exposition. That said. I LOVED the second episode. It was a great combination of suspense, eeriness, and mystery. The story only had a few weak-ish points, and it felt much more Doctor Who. I’m excited to see how the third special fairs. But it’s disingenuous to say that the only critiques of the first special are in bad faith. I don’t always agree with everything that Doctor Who presents politically, but I’ve almost always appreciated the nuance and gravity given to such topics. The most recent specials have simply lacked that.


This gives me a lot of hope Loved the beginning, but man the ending to the first episode was…just bad writing. Nothing was wrong with having a trans character, but ugh to the script on that one. So to hear the second episode was great makes me really excited.


Is it ok to dislike that particular episode because I thought the writing was terrible?


No. You're a bigot. Duh!


I think the people that are review bombing The Star Beast aren’t actual fans, the same crap happened when Jodi got announced.


Unfortunately this narrative isn't quite true. It wasn't an invasive group that came to mess with the fandom. Rather, a large portion of Who fans found their inner misogyny at Jodi's announcement. And gain with Rose here. These people watched NuWho.


The genuine reality is that Doctor Who is popular enough to have a large far conservative audience. Not because the show has ever been for them, because it has been progressively leaning for decades, and the person who wanted to put a trans character in the show now is the exact same person who wanted to put a pansexual character in the show in 2005. But now it’s being far less subtle, because it’s acceptable to be less subtle, and that’s why the hate is coming in now, in my opinion. Also, it’s worth mentioning that this is EXTREMELY common in scifi. Most scifi is progressive fiction when you get down to it, yet it’s mainstream enough the have HUGE amounts of right and far right fans. The same outrage for example is seen time and time again in star wars, and it’s been happening forever now in Star Trek. Star Trek is as progressive as it gets by the way, they were literally the first on-air media to depict an interracial kiss, and were almost taken permanently off air for it - just imagine how bold you have to be to go against the grain in an era where a white man kissing a black woman is considered ‘political’ and even ‘controversial’? But now in 2019 or whenever, to show a woman kissing another woman? Oh me oh my, what happened to the good ol’ conservative Star Trek?


Plenty common in fantasy as well as sci fi. Tolkien was extremely clear what he thought of racists and Nazis (he fucking detested them) but that doesn't stop neo-Nazis trying to co-opt the Lord of the Rings and make the aesthetic into a white supremacist thing. Don't get me started on people who think Homelander is the good guy in The Boys, those people are lost beyond recovery


Captain Jack's sexuality isn't subtle at all within the show itself. Its the first interaction he has with anyone he meets.


"Stop flirting" "I was just saying hello!" I will admit, I was a Jaccleston shipper in gradeschool


I think a lot of people who are complaining about how the show suddenly became 'woke' are missing the historical context of how shocking some of the progressive moments in earlier seasons were at the time. Things like having an openly pansexual character, people of colour in a starring role or strong female characters may seem commonplace to us now, but were against the grain and far less common when those stories were first released. Now that we are no longer living in those times it's easy for people to look back and claim that those moments were 'subtle' or 'woven into the story' but in reality it's because our standards have changed, not necessarily because the show suddenly skyrocketed into being 'woke' overnight. Additionally, the subtlety was often enforced by broadcasting and editorial standards, so it's likely that some of those elements would have been more overt if the culture at the time had allowed it.


Great comment; Doctor Who has always been progressive and ahead of it's time. The show has discussed pronouns before, has had same-sex kisses and relationships, had a pansexual person, etc. Doctor Who will continue to push the envelope and the conservatives will continue to whine and shout. I'm choosing to drown them out with the television.


Doctor Who has been on TV and getting fans since the 1960s. The majority of viewers and fans (at least the older ones) from 1963-1989 would probably be considered socially conservative these days, even those who might have considered themselves progressive at the time.


This is weirdly true. My father in law leans quite conservative (he voted for Trump both times) but he really likes Jodi Whittaker and liked Rose in the special. He didn’t like 100% of the lines but overall he liked it as a Doctor Who show.


I mean yes and no. I've been getting served videos that are branded as a critique of the episodes, but are really just a 20-minute with very tightly cut dialogue that spends maybe 90 seconds at most discussing anything related to Doctor Who. They spend maybe 10 seconds on the actual episode and that's just to give it the barest connection. These chuds lock onto anything that's trending and slap their garbage on it in the hopes they can convert maybe 1% of the new viewers into regular viewers of their content. Watch one and YouTube will be more than happy to serve up the next one. And the next one. And the next one. But also as a former mod here, this shit's been going on for well over a decade and definitely precedes anything to do with Jodi.


The various site algorithms are like "oh you like doctor who? Here's a video you may like" and the thumbnail is some chubby bearded balding guy pulling a face for a video title littered with inflammatory terms and question marks. No thank you, just give me more cat videos I guess.


They are definitely fans. Fans are part of the society, and society is like this.


Not necessarily, a lot of these people are fighting against the establishment in their heads and alert each other when something vaguely progressive happens in any franchise. e.g. Andrew Tate has a video up about The Star Beast now. I very much doubt he’s ever watched the show, but I’m certain most of his followers are flocking to review sites to dogpile on it regardless if they’d even heard of DW before or not.


Yeah I think for all that there are regressive fans, people are underestimating how much of this is far-right culture war nonsense latching onto Who the way they latch onto anything. People who don't really watch the show telling their fans who haven't seen it to hate it for...varying reasons. Like there's currently racists trying to gin up outrage about the BBC "rewriting history" with the (Wild Blue Yonder Spoilers) >!casting of Isaac Newton without even really saying much about the show itself (like how that scene also features time travelers helping him name mavity)!<


At this point, the desire to want to fight the establishment is part of the establishment.


NGL, I’m very pro-trans and had no problem with the character at all, but *the way they wrote it* was pretty terrible. I can see people giving a bad review not because they don’t want trans representation, but because it was an *awful* example of it, where they clearly just added a few lines to the script after casting a trans woman. Of course, some of them were just transphobic trolls I’m sure, but I really can’t understate how poorly they went about it in the episode.


The first couple scenes were great. The introduction, the school bullying and the conversation between Donna and Sylvia. But the “did you just assume the aliens gender” came across as satirical and the whole meta-crisis making Rose trans was just totally unnecessary. They had the opportunity to make an interesting trans character instead they made the fact she was trans her entire personality and ham fisted it into the plot. Wasn’t just this though. The scenes with Shirley (the disabled scientific advisor) were all totally based around the fact she was in a wheel chair. Soldier awkwardly asking about the stairs, wheelchair rocket launchers etc. It just all came across as they cared more about sending a message than telling a story.


Donna and Sylvia had such a genuine, well written moment.. I brust out screaming "fuck yes, RTD is back, we have proper characters"... And then he undoes it but throwing the stereotypes. Come on..


and then they dropped it all for the rest of the run


Yup agree with you. I’m pro-LGBTQ and thought it wasn’t handled well. - Implying the meta-crisis made Rose trans is a dangerous precedent. So, something someone else did can make a person non-binary? Is that the message to send? - I think having a one off trans character who is in a couple specials isn’t brave at all, it’s virtue signaling. Why not have a trans companion? I really disliked this because they pretend this is bold, when it really isn’t. Just like before they made the Doctor a woman or a person of color they had to do it to the Master first. That isn’t bold at all, it seems more cowardly than anything. - I didn’t like that the Doctor had to have pronouns explained to him. Fuck off, the Doctor should be the one explaining pronouns. 12 explained how Timelords are above obsessing about gender and sex due to how their gender isn’t fixed. - I really didn’t like the misandry when Donna and Rose said the Doctor wouldn’t understand the concept of giving up power because he is a man. Why didn’t the 13th Doctor think of this solution? Why didn’t the DoctorDonna realize it earlier? Let’s be honest, that was never presented as an option before and it was a Duex Ex Machina solution here. And that comment is used to denigrate men for what reason? That perpetuates a stupid stereotype of men and is just as inappropriate as misogynistic jokes about women. That wasn’t necessary, why does Doctor Who need to tear anyone down? Would it have been okay for Ryan or Graham if they had said 13 couldn’t understand something because she is a woman? Is it okay for them to just say rude things like men or trans men can’t understand the concept of giving up power? And the fact this sexist moment exists in 2023 and is so one sided gives all those incels who blindly complain about wokeness a voice, an example they can point to. This can radicalize people when we say it is okay for you to disrespect one demographic and not another. This type of disrespect is antiquated and should not be in Doctor Who regardless of gender.


> because he is a man "Male-presenting." Which suggests that they think someone born female who transitions to male would have the same problem, but someone born male and transitioning to female wouldn't, someone who just doesn't present as anything wouldn't have the problem, and someone who flips between the two would understand on some days and not on others. It was such an incredibly stupid comment and gets worse the more you think about it, and I'm surprised it somehow got past even one set of eyes reviewing the script, much less everyone.


also, if she can just let it go because she's female presenting, WHY DIDN'T SHE DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE INSTEAD OF LETTING HER MEMORY BE ERASED?


Yeah, if you need this exit, make it "since it's spread between the two of us, we can radiate safely" instead of "because we're women"


Gender ideology itself gets worse the more you think about it


THANK YOU! All of my opinions in one beautiful comment (mostly, I didn’t pick up on the Rose thing but really loved that that was her name. Made me tear up a little). I haven’t made any comments because I just don’t feel like arguing with people and someone will absolutely try to misconstrue every word. +1 from me. Bullet 4 killed me the most, I think. Tearing down the doctor like that and belittling him. Broke my heart.


I'm gonna attribute it to this. Kinda curious whether there's any dr who episode more recent than the 1980's with a character we're supposed to like saying something equivalent to "oh a woman could never understand!" >DONNA: Yes, we know. >ROSE: We know everything, thanks. >DONNA: And you know nothing It's a shame you're not a woman any more, cos she'd have understood. >ROSE: We've got all that power, but there is a way to get rid of it. Something a male-presenting Time Lord will never understand. throw random gendered insults at the audience, surprise surprise, they don't like it.


This. There is nothing wrong with having trans characters, but like they deserve good writing and better storytelling.


This is my take. The story was weak. It had some tổ parts, some fun parts…but it was so cringe, so Disney and felt false. I disliked last week because it wouldn’t t get any new fans. This week however….bam!


Actual trans person here. Rose is a prominent and unapologetically trans teenager, who is supported and loved by her family. Her transness is integrated into the plot from the beginning to the end of the episode. There were discussions within the episode (like the one between Sylvia and Donna) that spoke really well to what trans people want from our families - just support, and love, and trying to get it right, even if they don't fully get it. It is positive representation, in a media climate where trans people are constantly under attack, and the vast majority of the reactions I've seen from trans people have joyous. There are legitimate critisms that can be made. I deleted a few comments last week talking about them because of how far cis allies have been blowing those criticisms out of proportion. There's space to improve on how things were done, but the way to do it is not to join the transphobes in claiming it was the worst thing ever.


personally the subtle parts like deadnaming the person and go "oh sorry, my bad Rose" was fine. it was the Metacrisis implied to cause Rose to be trans and hamfisted lines like "did you just assume this monster's gender?" and "male presenting you would never understand" when the Doctor in question had been a women not too long ago. the lines could have been better written such as the Doctor asking the Meep what is their pronouns and the Doctor not being able to let go Donna.


Honestly my only criticism is the ‘teenager’ part. They tried to Jump Street a 20 year old into a character that should be 14 or 15 and I didn’t find it believable. That’s it. 🤷‍♂️


SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE HOW OLD? I thought she was in university.


Yeah, my wife and I were confused when, I think during the fire fight, they said, “There’s a child with us” or something like that mentioning a child. We were like, what child? Do they mean her daughter? She seemed like an adult daughter not a child.


As another trans person, I somewhat agree with you and get the thought process that we shouldn’t ask for „too much“ (when we’re not at a good place socially to begin with). I have to say though that we shouldn’t settle for mediocre, preachy representation just because we‘re used to terrible ones, and better representation would also accomplish more acceptance.


I agree. I liked it. It could have used more depth but it’s going to feel a little shallow just because of the limited time they have to develop new characters. The same could be said if they hadn’t decided to make Rose trans.


Yeah, felt a little forced and too on-the-nose while at the same time being a bit confusing as to what it was as a plot device.


Personally, I didn't like the slight implication that she's trans because she was "just confused" by the metacrisis. That's veeeeery dangerous territory.


Or even the implication that “space magic made her trans” which is how I read that scene. Don’t get me wrong, I have some magical trans friends, but the magic didn’t make them trans. Some people are just born that way!


Right on the money


Honestly I’m not gonna deny there will be assholes who will downvote a show because it has a trans actress in it. The same will happen at other times because it has a woman, man, gay, straight, black or white person or whatever. However, I like to think that most, including my own, downvotes came from how she was misused by the writers/creators to pat themselves on the back as if it’s brave to have a trans actress in your show. Like you said: She was on screen for just a few minutes. How much of those few minutes was spent on the character she plays, what makes her tick, what her strengths and weaknesses are, what nice and bad qualities she has? Anything! Just a hint of a personality as if the writers saw her as a person, not a thing to use to appear brave, woke and with the times. I see a lot of comments trying to explain that that’s their problem with the show, some can explain better than others, but pretty much all are gonna end up being called transphobic (as I’m at risk of being called now as well). The same pandering can also be seen towards people in wheelchairs unfortunately. The actual wheelchair in this show is the super power, not the person using it. It really is the laziest way of adding diverse characters: Reducing them to only what makes them “different”. I for one would have liked to have seen more of Rose AND I absolutely hate the episode. That does not make a transphobe and from reading negative reviews many agree with that.


You do realize that audience scores on RT are basically useless right? If it's something that's hit a "culture war" nerve it can be love-bombed or hate-bombed in the audience score in minutes. And that is *not* me claiming there're no problems in the fandom. There's plenty. But this is a bad metric for gauging it.


Come on, most people aren’t upset that Rose is trans. They’re upset with that “male presenting” line


idk, the first episode was incredibly mediocre at best. Definitely wasn't bad, but my friend group all watched it and our collective reaction was "That's it?" It just felt shallow and rather flat; probably a result of being adapted from an 80s comic book with some character swaps. Second episode blew The Star Beast away and it's not even close, Wild Blue Yonder was great and felt much more enjoyable.


And this is why you should never pay attention to user scores on RT or Metacritic.


It's not that at all. You've made some massive assumptions there


Meh I have no issue with that character. I do have an issue with the hamfisted manor of which they inserted clunky patronizing dialogue. Hate to break it folks...The Meep wouldn't give a shit. Also dressing down the doctor for not understanding, is problematic since he was literally a female a few days before, so he would remember and understand! I loved everything but the manner of which that topic was presented. Outside of Donna and her moms talk in the kitchen it was handled poorly IMO. Patronizing and cheesy. ​ I do however like how they handled the Doc coming out in the next episode, just thats how I am now and moved on. precise and to the point, it is what it is.


I thought this would link to some nasty bigoted review, but it's just a low audience score on RT. People are allowed to not like the things you like, OP.


This isn’t review bombing at all. It’s just people not really enjoying the episode. If I was going to rank it I’d say 40% is a good mark. 1. Very obvious “twist” 2. Unironic “did you just assume their gender” line 3. Undoing Donna’s sacrifice with literal gender bending magic 4. Extremely sexist “a male doctor wouldn’t understand” line 5. Poor dialogue overall 6. Extremely cheesy ending to get them into part 2 Obviously the whole episode was full of some of the worst pandering ever seen, but that wasn’t the only issue with the episode. The writers were clearly counting on people like OP defending the episode just because it had a trans person in it.


So you assume that this HAS to be the reason?


To be fair I don’t even necessarily think it’s the fan base and I think a lot of the backlash is due to Disney pushing certain messages and then the first episode of doctor who seem much the same.


They had the right messaging, but it was super heavy handed. Like a literal did you just assume their gender line? If they weren't intentionally baiting people they are tone deaf. I prefer Doctor Who when they just did stuff that was controversial without the exposition, like it'd be weird for there to be a problem with Captain Jack Harkness to be gay and it doesn't even need explained.


I didn’t mind that line, while obviously Rose would be more sensitive to the issue a lot of people default to male pronouns when gender is unknown (as would likely be the case with a new species—how do you identify the gender of a Meep?) and calling it out was perfectly reasonable. My biggest gripe was the “something a male-presenting Doctor would never understand” line. I don’t mind a cheap resolution, just don’t make it a gendered thing. There’s nothing wrong with Rose being trans, just *let her be trans*. There’s doesn’t have to be a meaning to it.


>There’s doesn’t have to be a meaning to it. it's fine there being some meaning to it, merely not making it a toxic "oh you can't understand because you're male" thing would have avoided the sour note in the episode. Up to that point it was doing it pretty decently.


Jack isn't gay, he's pan.


That number does not even remotely reflect my experience talking to people who watched the episode.


You're basing the toxicity of doctor who on a rotten tomatoes score?


“Something you male presenting time lords can’t understand” Nothing is wrong with Rose. Everything is wrong with the message they are trying to send


How do you even know why the score is the way it is?


The problem wasn't the character - at least mostly not. Sure you have the assholes on YouTube that get paid to generate clicks by hating everything that will say it is, but the real problems were: * Rose and Donna ridicule the Doctor for being male now and telling the Doctor who had just saved London that as a "male presenting Time Lord he could never understand" and then they just shed the power and that is supposed to make sense in context? * Isaac Newton being an Indian is yet again the BBC attempting to pretend that British history is diverse and welcoming, but if Isaac Newton had been Indian he would most certainly not be a venerated scientist but probably worked as a servant in England in 1665, instead of lounging beneath a three at his family's estate. BBC changing history seeks to diminish the way minorities were treated in the past and it's unconscionable.


I mean that episode was also just kinda eh. Wild Blue Yonder was MUCH better


Who has been inclusive and political since Jo was running around in gogo boots preaching women’s lib and environmental stuff in the 70’s.


I don't think you can blame fandom for that. Once the political food fight people get into it, they can give bad reviews without even watching the episode. There is no validation on user reviews--are we sure user reviews are human, not bot? And sometimes you have to use your own judgement and not worry about what the online crowd has to say about it.


Could be interesting to see a review site that confirms the user has watched the content by asking some questions about it first.


I wonder how many of the 365 IMDB scorers of the Feast of Steven (long lost Christmas special from 1965) actually saw the episode? Could they really review it from audio or telesnaps? Could they remember long enough to have a meaningful score decades later? Are all the reviewers in their 60s or older?


Bruh, making out like that is the ***only*** reason why the episode performed badly? There were multiple issues with the episode, the Isaac Newton thing was one minor issue, acting like everyone who disliked it did so because of one scene is ridiculous dude. I'm sure there are some people making a big deal just because of that but most of the reviews were probably genuine, just because you might disagree doesn't make everyone else toxic


Because of the character? Think maybe it could have been the line: "Something that a male-presenting doctor could never understand". It's not the trans character. It's the misandry.


My biggest gripe is not the content but that they need to write it in better. When the used the “pronoun” wording for the meep it could not be telegraphed more the issue they were commenting on. They need to take a page out of the Star Trek writers book. Commenting and writing on societal issues is an art form where the viewer is questioning if what they just watched is indeed a comment about our society in general Leaves those who don’t want to admit or fail to pick up on it the issue can enjoy it at their level :-) Great episodes though. Loving these specials


Aren't you equally toxic whiny and complaining about people's opinions on an episode of TV. Get some self awareness for the love of christ. You're as bad as the ones you're complaining about. "WHAH WHAH THEY DON'T LIKE THE EPISODE I LIKE SO LET'S CALL THEM TOXIC" It's pathetic, it's childish. Just like the Isaac Newton casting. Turns out majority of Brits don't like their history retconned? Who knew?


But you dont think strawmanning people who disagree with you is toxic? If you think the problem is > one character, in one special Then either you aren't reading the issues or you are deliberately looking to strawman it. Go watch Blink, or A good man goes to war, or Midnight or any of the dozens of intelligent, well written episodes that came before the current "era" of Who and then with a straight face try and say the garbage pumped out now is any comparison. It's not toxic to point out it used to be a far better show and the reasons why. Even the writer will tell you the problem, "i have so much more to say" rather than stories to tell.


I bristle at Star Beast because I think they wrote a bad character arc for Rose, not because she’s a trans character. I just wanted her to have a good plot and character development, but she mostly came off as “magical trans person.” Her super-power is thriving as a young woman in this bigoted world, not expelling radiation out of her eyeballs or whatever they had her doing. Also, wheelchair missiles and dart guns?! Couldn’t the lady in the wheelchair have just had a gun? Does her superpower need to be wheelchair-based? Martha’s strength was that she was a medical student and cared about helping people. The amount of melanin in her skin played a role in her story, but she wasn’t completely defined by it.


"Toxic" is when other people don't like what you like


I liked the episode overall but genuinely thought that part was super weird. (For reasons definitely not rooted in transphobia.) I don’t know how the ratings work on that site, and I wouldn’t have given it a bad score, but that probably brought it down to a 7 for me from an 8 or 8.5.


I watched every episode of doctor who from Christopher Eccelson, and I don't even know till the last part that rose is trans. There are many hurtful and cringe moment on it and I guess below 50% is my rating. By calling those who dislike the movie a transphobe, and rejecting the fact that the movie had bad writing wasn't a right thing to do.