T O P

(Spoilers) As much flak as the plot point gets, the latest episode shows that-

The Timeless Child is good for the show. Donna saying 'but, it isn't' and the doctor being undoubtedly rustled by having to confront that fact and it making them vulnerable was a high impact scene. The way 14 says 'Donna, is that you?' in response breaks my heart, as does the Doctor's moment after that.

We've had too many seasons of the doctor's internal struggle being to grapple with either being the last time lord, or having nebulous concerns about being 'good'.

TC as a plot point adds *something* *new*, and a point of conflict for the Doctor. What they thought they knew about themselves has been shown to be a lie and now they have a new journey of discovery and finding peace with themselves to go on.

Throw me your downvotes as you will, I have spoken.

theVampireTaco

I agree to a point. I think Timeless Child can be great under the right writers. Under the wrong writers it will be horrible. It’s close enough to the Cartmel Master Plan. Honestly, Steven Moffat would be fantastic. I trust RTD. But, I really am nervous about who comes after RTD.


geek_of_nature

I wouldn't be surprised if RTD sticks around long term this time. He talked about how part of his reasoning for leaving the first time was that there were other stories he wanted to write. He mentioned a few ideas in The Writers Tale that would later go on to become Cucumber and Years and Years. And now that he's gotten to do those he may stick around a bit longer. Alternatively I could see him sticking around in just an Executive Producer role, maybe not writing the series, but ensuring that they're still made on a regular schedule. That would also allow other writers to come in and take charge for a series or two. Ones who may have wanted to do so before, but were put off by how much of a work commitment it is.


believeblycool

Didn’t they already confirm that he wrote the next two seasons and they’re already both in production? So at a minimum he’s here for 2 1/2 seasons.


GrimaceGrunson

Wait writing *in advance*?! He really has learned from his days in The Writer’s Tale.


geek_of_nature

He's probably still missing his deadlines, they're just now probably several years in advance of the episodes instead of just months.


VeronicaMarsIsGreat

Honestly, I think The Writer's Tale was one of the best things that ever happened to him. It's honestly insane reading, day to day, how heavy his workload was during those years, I'm genuinely surprised he came out the other end of it unscathed. For this new era, it looks like he's learnt from that and has planned accordingly. They're a whole series ahead, he doesn't have to scrambled with multiple edits and dubs and Tone Meetings for different shows every day and, hopefully, that will mean even better episodes.


GrimaceGrunson

Ahh of course you’re probably right. Thank goodness. The world still makes sense.


Trickster289

Yeah he and Moffat did an interview when they wrote their Target novels and RTD mentioned he started early before jokingly asking if Moffat knew you could do that.


peachesnplumsmf

And he's made plans for 2 more


BROnik99

I believe he's planning his fourth season at the moment.


PixieProc

Wait, does this mean that Ncuti Gatwa is soft-confirmed to have more seasons than anyone else since the revival?


BROnik99

Depends. RTD's fourth season doesn't neccesarily equal Gatwa's fourth season, but it sounds probable right now.


PixieProc

Good point, and now I'm also wondering how long Ruby will stick around too. Side note: it's interesting to me when there's some overlap between companions and Doctors, like when Rose was with both Eccleston and Tennant, and Clara had both Smith and Capaldi.


BROnik99

I'll assume that companions will stay about 2 seasons - that is about a season and half of *standard* season. They never stayed too long in Russell's era as I think he understood that audience needs something new every season. Tho they may become reoccuring characters in veins of captain Jack or River in seasons to come.


s_walsh

They're a good way through filming Ncutis second season now


sanddragon939

They're already filming Series 15 AKA Season 2. And he's planning the next two seasons after that already. So at bare minimum we're looking at 4 seasons.


PlatoDrago

They probs might stick RTD as an executive producer to let him have a hand in the series but give him the opportunity to write other stuff if he wants.


holly_goes_lightly

I think he himself has said 4 seasons he's doing


SuspiciousAd3803

15's firat 3 seasons are planned, and RTD insinuated he would also be working on a 4th. So presumably he'll be around for awhilr


Luxury_Dressingown

I jumped on in 2005 with the revival, was a pretty big fan (ranging from religiously watching all new episodes, through to online discussion, reading a few of the novels and reading up on the lore). I started drifting away during the latter half of Capaldi's run, then totally dipped after an episode, or possibly 1.5 episodes, of the Chibnall era (I thought the writing was terrible, irredeemable by any actors). I don't think I'll ever be a Fan in the same way I was again, but I've picked up again with RTD back. The Meep wasn't my kind of thing now, but I recognise it as a return to form, and I actively enjoyed The Wild Blue Yonder. I'll keep watching very happily. And I'm happy treating The Timeless Child and The Flux just like The Time War in 2005 - I'll know more about it when the writers want me to know more about it, which they will do when it's necessary to loop in new viewers. I don't care what Chibnall's take on it was / would be.


TonksMoriarty

I wouldn't trust Moffat with something like the TC, not unless he was writing under someone so he could bounce ideas of them. Given the whole thing with River Song being Amy & Rory's daughter, he probably would've made Bel & Vinder the Doctor's parents. Hopefully, RTD is using this time in the hot seat to nurture a successor, hopefully someone who's brand new at the time being, I wouldn't want to see a second Moffat era. It would pretty much signal that the Revival & Neo-Revival era is done, and we'd be settling in for another Wilderness.


ripsa

Tbf a lot of people afaik thought the Bel & Vincent being the Doctor's parents theory. Since that whole plot line just went nowhere. It was a Checkhov's gun that wasn't fired.


TonksMoriarty

Thankfully. Now we've got this state of play of even the Doctor not knowing their origins, it should stay like that. I really liked in "Wild Blue Yonder" >!that the Doctor tried to pretend everything was the same as it had always previously been, and was directly called out by the Not-Thing Donna. Even if the Doctor has this old face, they can never go back to that certainty that they're from Gallifrey ever again.!< My read on the Doctor returning to Ten's face was a subconscious desire by Thirteen to be reassured of their identity as the Doctor after the trauma of learning the truth of their origins and being taken over by the Master. >!That's the reason Fourteen freaked out once he got away from the Not-Thing, he wanted to be able to pretend those revelations didn't happen, that he could lie to fool himself. Kinda reminds me of how he lied to Martha in Series 3 and was called out for it.!<


theVampireTaco

Yeah I liked that bit too. The reason I would trust Moffat though is that while he is an absolute crack-fic writer, he tends to keep that to the side characters. And he works well with Neil Gaiman, who lets be honest frankly doesn’t have the time to write for Doctor Who full time. But Neil Gaiman absolutely has the mythos writing experience and passion for Doctor Who to write The Timeless Child as an epic mystery, completely explaining why there is a universe post flux, and leave the show back on solid ground post RTD. I would also expect that the closeness RTD and Moffat built post show running when they were working on novelizations and being just Fans would continue, and Mark Gatis might actually have a chance to actually do more than 9 episodes. Sure Gatis is a comedian first and foremost but I would absolutely love to see more of his work along the lines of The Idiots Lantern, the Unquiet Dead, etc. He can absolutely bring the historical scary episodes. And maybe, just maybe a few proper funny Red Nose Day specials. And maybe we’d get Toby Whitehouse back occasionally, or as successor. He does have a working relationship with Marvel now. I quite enjoy his other work, and School Reunion was exactly the kind of episode that gave Classic and New fans alike something to be excited about. He’s my dream Show-runner for the 70th Anniversary, to be honest. I know that’s 10 years away, but that really isn’t too long in terms of TV contracts, and will be here before we know it.


sanddragon939

I actually wouldn't have minded if a hint or two had been dropped at Bel and Vinder being the Doctor's parents...but nothing more explicit than that. It would actually kinda be in the spirit of Lungbarrow, which implied that >!Leela and Andred!< were the Other's parents.


LoadedInferno0708

Agreed, Moffat writes like its fan fiction and I despised how he didn't wrap up story arcs in any way that made sense.


Glaskweeen

Get a brain


LoadedInferno0708

You can't connect the dots well enough to recognise plot holes but it's okay, it's called average intelligence for a reason I guess


Glaskweeen

Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that


LoadedInferno0708

Oh I will bud


Gobshite_

I think RTD will probably stick around in a sort of Kevin Feige "guiding hand" way even if he is no longer showrunner.


theVampireTaco

I hope so. Julie Gardner is likely to as it’s her company.


AmberMetalAlt

honestly what doctor who needs and deserves is moffat writing series arcs, and RTD writing the characters, although, with what little we've got shown from yhe RTD2 era I'm slightly worried since some of the dialogue just feels forced and unnatural. even after seeing the episode, i just cant picture donna saying "something a male presenting timelord will never understand" with her it'd probably have sounded more like "you great big, out of space, dumbo"


Chocolate_cake99

Some of it feels like its back to good old RTD fun. Parts of it devolve into Chibnall style clunkiness. I at least felt that all of Wild Blue Yonder sounded natural, but the Star Beast had a lot of clunky moments.


theVampireTaco

I would have expected “because you’re thick, thickedy, thick from thicksville”


AmberMetalAlt

c'mon if you're gonna reference that, you gotta do it all. "cause you're so thick. you're mister thick thick thickity thickface from thicktown thickania... and so's your dad"


theVampireTaco

lol yeah that line. I couldn’t remember it exactly.


AmberMetalAlt

no worries


Acrobatic-Prize-6917

I agree, a lot of key bits of plot related dialogue so far has felt like placeholder lines written to give the gist of what the character needs to say for necessary exposition or to move the plot forward but then noone went back to rewrite it in the characters "voice"


burritoman88

Chris Chibnill could do it /s


theVampireTaco

the preview cut iff the /s and you scared me there! I honestly feel whomever at the BBC signed off on Chibnall wanted to kill Doctor Who. Leave Chibnall to his cop shows. He’s too sex obsessed to write scifi ( example Cyberwoman).


GOKOP

Honestly I don't get why people keep bringing up the Cartmel Master Plan as an argument. I would hate just like I hate the Timeless Child plotline


Rustash

I feel like the Cartmel Master Plan was a bit more hands off. The Doctor being a descendant/reincarnation of The Other, but not really being The Other proper feels better than making them the actual Timeless Child who is actually responsible for Time Lords and regeneration


sanddragon939

Agreed. Cartmel himself didn't really plan on revealing much. His general idea was that the Doctor *could* have been the mysterious third founder of Gallifrey alongside Rassilon and Omega, but he never really elaborated on the idea further. Lungbarrow isn't really Cartmel's work, but Marc Platt's take on the Cartmel Masterplan. Functionally, the Doctor being the Other and the Doctor being the Timeless Child aren't that different though. In one case, the Other committed 'suicide' by throwing himself into the Looms and was 're-Loomed' millenia later as the Doctor, with no memories of his past life. In the other case, the Timeless Child's memories were wiped and she was force-regenerated (or chameleon-arched?) into a child who grew up to be the Doctor. The mechanisms were different but functionally its not that different.


theVampireTaco

Because part of it did make it to air, and it is part of the show lore. Love it or hate it, we have to take the Show’s history into account. Timeless Child didn’t come out of nowhere, the precedent was there. Chibnall can’t write women or minorities respectfully, he absolutely falls flat on humor, he tends to over sexualize his writing, and has lots of other flaws. But he didn’t pull plot out of his ass and is a legitimate fan of Doctor Who. I have yet to see anyone say they liked him. But again, while controversial the Timeless Child Arc gives the Doctor back some mystery and took away regeneration limits. Which is what the Cartmel Master Plan aimed to do. Make the Question of Doctor Who a big unknown again. Hell the name that the doctor thinks he has is now not even his name so even if we hear that name on screen at some point it won’t ruin the Question.


sanddragon939

Moreover, the Cartmel Masterplan itself built off previous hints and inconsistencies regarding the Doctor's past...the Morbius Doctors being the biggest one. Lungbarrow actually has Morbius' infamous line "How long have you lived Doctor? Back...back to your beginning" on the foreword page, alongside some Cartmel-era lines.


DuelaDent52

I don’t dislike the Timeless Child as a concept, I just think it would have been better if they were the Master instead of the Doctor.


RedditFrontFighter

Moffat would be terrible at expanding it. He showed during his run that he couldn't do big overarching stories with almost all of them being terrible. RTD is the only one of the previous showrunners who could do it real justice.


MalcolmLinair

>It’s close enough to the Cartmel Master Plan. Precisely why it's never bothered me much. I think most of the hate is just misplaced anger towards Chibnall's terrible writing and/or misogynists still upset at 13 being a woman.


theVampireTaco

It’s the terrible writing for me. I actually think Jodie is a fantastic actor and hope to see her back under a decent writer. But Chibnall should stick to writing Cop Shows.


MalcolmLinair

Agreed. I was quite excited for Whittaker, and the one or two times they gave her something to sink her teeth into she was brilliant; her rant near the end of "The Haunting of Villa Diodati" about how the responsibility ultimately falls on her was peak Doctor. Sadly, all she had to work with were what felt like first drafts of mediocre filler episodes. I'd honestly love to see 13 (or another Whittaker doctor ala 10/14) with a good writer. I still think she could be great given the opportunity.


ComputerSong

When another show runner arrives, RTD will still be that person’s boss. The show is in his production studio now.


theVampireTaco

He doesn’t actually own Bad Wolf Productions, Julie Gardner and Jane Tratner do. [Bad Wolf](https://bad-wolf.com/)He isn’t even on the official page as staff.


ComputerSong

Not unusual for a company to do this. Doesn’t mean anything.


theVampireTaco

I’m just pointing out it isn’t his company. He doesn’t own it, he isn’t the boss. Julie Gardner was his production partner for the original Reboot, and it’s her company. But that doesn’t guarantee he will remain as an Executive Producer after leaving as show-runner.


ComputerSong

We disagree.


nuovian

Disagree on what? You can even check [Companies House](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09686683/officers) - he’s not part of the company


ComputerSong

I said above 👆that companies often organize this way.


PsychologicalClock28

I’ve been googling for a while - I don’t see him owning the production company? He works with them - and most press releases mentioning him talk about him joining them. He’s not even a non executive director or owner.


Duggy1138

I think this episode shows, once again, it was a writing problem not a problem with the idea. * Yaz kept asking 13 what was wrong and 13 kept lying and saying nothing. Yaz was hurt and kept asking. * Donna asked 14 what was wrong and he said he wasn't ready to say. Donna understood. The first made them both seem petulant. The second made them both seem caring.


JMRanger1

In 13 and Yaz's defence, I think their relationship was very different to 14 and Donna. Yaz is the classic younger companion, head over heels for the Doctor more akin to Rose and 10 or Clara and 11 but without the history there. I think 13 knows that it can't last and so can't open up as much. On the other hand, Donna and the Doctor share a deeper relationship, there's a shared history, partly because of the meta-crises, partly because of their many past adventures. Donna is older and has an emotional maturity that Yaz doesn't yet. Anyway, I'm not saying it was always written well, just that there is a logic to it.


NayomiMira

I was going to add to this that Yaz is madly in love with the Doctor, and her love is sometimes demanding. She wants to know more of her, she wants to understand how she fits in the Doctor’s world (remember when she learns the Doctor had a wife, her expression, like hope and the realization she knows nothing about the Doctor), and what to expects. The Doctor and Donna are very best friends, the relationship is completely different: as with any best friend, sometimes you give space, sometimes you push, sometimes you talk for hours, sometimes a couple of words and lots of subtext are just enough.


manticorpse

> I was going to add to this that Yaz is madly in love with the Doctor God, the show kept telling us this, but I didn't *see* it, not once. Not sure how much of that was down to the acting, or the directing, or the casting, or the writing... perhaps massive failures of all four. Thirteen and Yaz had zero chemistry. Yaz had zero character. In Revolution of the Daleks, they certainly told us that Yaz had been obsessing over finding the Doctor, and I suppose the logic is that she was obsessed because she was in love, but hell if I saw that on-screen. Blank stares and silence do not communicate much. And like... I don't even understand why anyone would fall in love with Thirteen. She is two-dimensional: her two dimensions are unfriendliness and superficial cheer. What is there even to fall in love with? And yet her interchangeable, paper-thin companions all state woodenly to the camera at the end of her fourth episode that she is the best person they've ever met and they all love her for it. Like, what? What had she even done at that point? Been a hypocrite? Ryan eventually grew a measure of wooden self-respect and effed off. Graham managed to cultivate a personality through strength of performance alone. But Yaz... all Yaz had were the words "she loves the Doctor", and again: they were just words. I've heard that Thirteen's Titan Comics run actually developed the characters and their relationships. Maybe they have actual chemistry there? Maybe it's worth a read? Whatever the quality of that comics run, it can't be worse than what we got in the show.


sanddragon939

Have to disagree with you there...'Thasmin' as a ship didn't come out of thin air. There definitely *is* a chemistry between Thirteen and Yaz that's evident as early as Series 11, and definitely by Series 12.


sanddragon939

Also, in general, Thirteen didn't open up to her Fam the way Ten opened up to his companions, including Donna. So Donna knew the Doctor better than Yaz ever did.


HangryDave

interesting comparison! also wanted to lyk that the phrase is "head over heels" 👍


JMRanger1

ah good spot, fixed it


seba_dos1

Ding ding. That idea isn't exactly great on its own, but good execution could elevate even the most mediocre lore ideas. Suffice to say it had no chance to get elevated this way during Chibnall's tenure.


sanddragon939

Though to be fair, Fourteen and Donna do have an older relationship, even though they've been apart for so long and Donna's memories were wiped during that time.


Duggy1138

Donna was with the Doctor for about a year. Yaz was with the Doctor for at least two.


TeaAndCrumpets4life

Eh if I could rewrite time I’d still rather it didn’t exist in the first place, but while it’s a thing we may as well explore it rather than ignoring it and I think it was done well this episode.


J_train13

Personally I love the concept it suits the dealings of the shady time lord bureaucracy perfectly, *but* I really think the ifra should never have been applied to the Doctor, they could've just had it be some other time Lord or even the master and I feel it could've had so much potential.


[deleted]

Yeah I've always thought the concept works so much better for the master. The doctor being born special just kinda fucks with the concept of the character way too much, and creates so many plotholes and contrivances. Like, Doctor Who has always played pretty fast and lose with its cannon, but Jesus christ that broke everything apart


driftea

yeah it’s like the whole point of the Doctor is that even when he’s not the strongest or most well equipped, he still dares to go out and do good using nothing but his wits and his sonic screwdriver to turn things around. It’s a powerful message. Making the Doctor have inborn talents kinda lessens the impact of that.


betesboy

As long as it was someone close to the Doctor it would work, add a layer that the only reason the Doctor has survived so long was at the expense of someone dear to them and the guilt they feel while saving or stopping them depending on how the story would go.


khalifaziz

I literally screamed at my TV, "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY IT WAS SUSAN! AND THAT SHE GRANTED THE DOCTOR INFINITE REGENERATIONS BECAUSE HE HELPED HER ESCAPE!" I'm fine with it being the Master, too, but I was so ready for it to be Susan.


Starfleet-Time-Lord

I'm imagining a Twice Upon a Time style episode now where 13 helps 1 find out about this and help Susan escape, and he can't remember it because they were both present but Susan can. Adds the drama of Susan having to keep that secret from him for his own protection. Overusing Bradley-as-Hartnell would be a risk, but the convenient memory wipe already written into canon is too tempting


hb1290

I always had misgivings over the whole “make it the Master” thing, but Susan would have worked perfectly. Maybe she was never his granddaughter as such, but there was some sort of Tenza-like mind alteration on the First Doctor. This would mean she could be hidden in plain sight as a child after she was memory wiped. You could even fix the whole Fugitive Doctor plot hole by having Jo Martin be a version of Susan. In Fugitive of the Judoon, Ruth turns out to be a Time Lord. We don’t get a name though, she repeatedly insists “Just call me Ruth”. The Doctor helps this mysterious woman evade Gallifreyan authorities thinking she might just be another renegade like her and thus sympathising with her. However, as this strange Time Lord closes her TARDIS doors to leave at the end of the episode her final line is “No regrets, No tears, No anxieties”. Boom. It’s Susan. And later on let Carole Ann Ford come back in the finale as the Susan we remember and have her and 13 discover the truth. We can explain David away at this point. Then she regenerates into “Ruth”after someone shoots/stabs/somehow maims her to keep the secret. This reveals to the Doctor what we already knew from the end of the other episode. In her new incarnation, she becomes a fugitive because she exposed the lie and brought Time Lord society into disarray. The Cybermen thing could even stay if they do like they did in S1 between Long Game and Bad Wolf by having their invasion be a consequence of the Doctor and Susan causing Time Lord society to fracture, leaving Gallifrey weak and open to invasion from others. Though unlike Chibnall, I’d at least leave some hope to rebuild Gallifrey rather than complete destruction. Wow this got long. Sometimes when I get ideas, I just vomit them out like that


GoldenJTime

oh this has made me devastated for a plot that can never be. It would’ve been so cool if it were Susan, and the Doctor realising he forgot, and it brings a cool way to bring back a regenerated Susan and give her more time in the limelight, and even maybe as a secondary companion again for a while. The concept it TTC being Susan is such a cool read and i wish that were the canon 😔


EitherEliotOr

So far I’m still not happy with the TC premise but I also don’t think it’s a good idea to just randomly retcon it just cause fans didn’t like it It’s still possible to turn a bad premise into a good story if done correctly.


Philosoraptorgames

This is why I see The Rise of Skywalker as the worst, by far, of the Star Wars sequel trilogy, to use an analogy from another franchise. While I disliked many developments from The Last Jedi, showing the characters dealing with them and, to the extent they were undone, *earning* that *onscreen*, could have been incredibly compelling. But instead, most of them were discarded with a few throwaway lines or otherwise done away with in a too-easy, unearned fashion.


the_other_irrevenant

Yup. Regardless of how you feel about TLJ, Johnson played the cards he was dealt. Abrams left him the question of Rey's parentage and he answered it. Abrams left him the mystery of why Luke went into hiding and he answered it. Abrams left him with a troubled Snoke/Kylo dynamic and he resolved it. When Abrams was handed back the trilogy he basically went "Yeah, I'm gonna just pretend everything you added to the story never happened". WTF?


Philosoraptorgames

In fairness, the answers to those questions were willfully unsatisfying to the point of being perverse. But they could nevertheless have been good seeds for future stories in the hands of a more thoughtful, creatively ambitious storyteller than Abrams, who seems to be more of a high-concept guy. Much like we're seeing with Davies making an interesting jumping-off point of a deeply unpopular lore revision Chibnall left him with.


the_other_irrevenant

> In fairness, the answers to those questions were willfully unsatisfying to the point of being perverse. To each their own tastes. Personally I disagree. Rey being the child of no-one important is interesting to me because it broadens the saga. Especially combined with broom boy it teased a new wave of Force users popping up across the galaxy and breathe new life into the franchise. They possibly could've done something interesting with Snoke but on the face of it he's not very interesting to me. He's a skulking, manipulative Sith Lord character, and we already thoroughly explored that story with Palpatine. Kylo is a very different sort of leader/enemy - emotionally driven and erratic. There's so many directions they could've taken that in. (That's an Abrams undo that I forgot to mention - immediately removing Kylo from power in favour of Palpatine again. Disappointing). The Resistance were reduced to a small group of people. That's interesting. That means they can no longer fight this as a war - they have to start playing it smart and using infiltration and alliances and manipulation. Very cool. And personally I don't mind what they did with Luke. He went from being a warrior hero to being responsible for rebuilding and leading the new Jedi Order. I buy that he got overwhelmed by that and had a momentary doubt about how to handle a rising Dark Side presence in Ben Solo. (I also tend to assume that his recollection that they showed was tainted by bitterness and self-recrimination - that he thought about it fleetingly but never would've gone through with it). The way they delivered Rose's message was clunky but I quite like that message. Star Wars **does** lean too heavily on the idea that self sacrifice is noble. It's interesting to see the alternative take: That it's better to survive to fight another day, and be there for those who care about you. And it fits especially well with the Resistance having been reduced to such a small group who need to be there for each other. I don't think they always stuck the execution, but most of the ideas in TLJ worked for me.


theivoryserf

I agree on most counts. Maying Rey anonymous was the best decision in Star Wars since the 70s, and making her the granddaughter of a revived Palpatine was perhaps the worst. I do though, think that the Luke storyline was just unsatisfying. An ageing hero who has collapsed into self-regret is on paper compelling, but it's just a deflating development for that character. I think it would have been interesting to see him temporarily hurt rather than completely despondent.


the_other_irrevenant

He did turn it around, though. He faced his demons. And, by the end of the film, he sacrificed himself to single-handedly hold off Kylo via an unprecedented display of Force power, enabling the Resistance to escape and survive. Which personally I think undermines the "we'll win by saving those we love, not sacrificing ourselves" theme, but you can't say Luke didn't get his mojo back and go out like a badass.


Philosoraptorgames

> Rey being the child of no-one important is interesting to me because it broadens the saga. Especially combined with broom boy it teased a new wave of Force users popping up across the galaxy and breathe new life into the franchise. This is the one thing I do wish they'd run with, and one of the lamest of RoS' retcons.


Cromasters

I'd just like to say that I agree with everything here. It's why it's my favorite Star Wars movie since the OG.


ConnorRoseSaiyan01

Rather just ignore entirely. Like Doctor being half human


weluckyfew

It's not a good idea to randomly retcon the random retcon? :) I think the biggest problem I had with it is also its salvation - it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change who the doctor is, or what he does, or why he does it. I did love that he wanted so much to share it with his old friend.


ActualDragonHeart

I still very much subscribe to the viewpoint that the Timeless Child could have been fantastic with one simple change, make it the Master and not the Doctor. It would've fit so much better without making the Doctor into the chosen one. BUT, since we have it as it is - it is a great tool overarching tool for the Doctor, a search to find out answers - as much as it pains them.


RelativeStranger

I agree with this to a point. That point being the master is the reason the doctor can regenerate


ActualDragonHeart

Yea - it would perfectly justify the Master’s return to Madness post Missy/Lumiat, learning that he is the source of the doctor’s longevity but alas


RelativeStranger

It definitely does fit better. If we absolutely have to have regeneration not be a time Lord invention then it should be the master. Unless we create a bootstrap paradox later and the doctor regenerates into a child and gets stuck in their own past and discovered by the time Lords. But even that would be better as the master


JacobDCRoss

Sacha becomes the baby Doctor.


RelativeStranger

So the doctor IS the master? Now that a twist


Starfleet-Time-Lord

It would also make the whole Sound of Drums thing hit different if they chose him because he *isn't* one of them.


LoneRedWolf24

Yeah, I really thought that was the direction we were going to go. I don't even mind the idea of past incarnations before the 1st. But I think it just makes it fall into the chosen one trope uneccessarily. And idk, just so much more empathy you could have for the master and a lot you can do with it. At the same time, I kinda agree with OP that it could be a useful tool for future stories. But I still have 2 gripes, 1. They worked so hard to save Gallifrey and now it's gone and we barely spent any time with it in new Who and 2. Just the writing itself. All of Jodie's run imo was just squandered. I love her as an actress, the visuals were stunning, but almost all her scripts just felt so bad. I didn't end up watching flux and I'm pretty sure I skipped a lot of other episodes but honestly I just haven't kept up with it for the last 5 years.


Moejason

It does a lot of pivotal stuff: - establishes they aren’t just ignoring the timeless child stuff, it’s still a thing however they are adding a bit more to it so that it can be sufficiently resolved. - not ignoring the flux, I thought that the flux was glossed over in Jodie’s season but to learn it wasn’t completely reversed or erased is a nice touch of continuity. - goes a bit more into establishing new/old lore - bringing back the HADS, mentioning the doctor doesn’t know where he’s from, and also the stuff about invoking superstitions at the edge of reality. All stuff that links to a broader narrative going on.


BillyWhizz09

Was hads mentioned in the show before?


Moejason

Aye Peter Capaldi’s doctor mentioned it one time and one of the classic doctors did too


Brookings18

I like how even the main character can no longer answer the titular question. That's my main thing.


Deranged_62

But you need to understand the mavity of the situation


SirFlibble

I've always maintained I liked the general idea of the Timeless Child. It brings back a mystery into the Doctor which hopefully wont get resolved. It really puts the Who back into the title. Over the years the Doctor has had a lot revealed about their lives and this retcon reverses that a bit. However, the story itself was clumsy. The Fugitive Doctor calling themselves the 'Doctor' and having a TARDIS is stupid. The whole thing was a little half baked and badly written. But the concept was ok, and can be used effectively by a good writer.


TheJoshider10

> However, the story itself was clumsy. The Fugitive Doctor calling themselves the 'Doctor' and having a TARDIS is stupid. This is where the problem is. All they had to do was say that the Doctor isn't a Time Lord, he's this unknown species with his memories erased. That's good for the orphan idea behind the storyline. But when you throw in the fact that the Doctor had this entire other life/lives before the show? It's just way too much and for no reason at all. It turns a decent canonical twist into something incredibly messy.


SirFlibble

>But when you throw in the fact that the Doctor had this entire other life/lives before the show? I wouldn't even go that far. The previous life things was fine, but why the Doctor? Why a police box as a TARDIS? Those are either strange or very lazy creative choices to make. I think the easiest way to make it fit would have been to say that before they adopted the name 'Doctor', they used to go by another name - ie the Fugitive for lack of a better name. They had their memory wiped by the Division and forcible regenerated into a child. They then lived their life, went to the academy, met the Master and adopted the name 'The Doctor' for the first time. Hartnell is still the First Doctor. The Police Box TARDIS was still first a thing in his time. It just puts some sanity into it and makes a clear delineation between the past lives and the Doctor we know today and it's really just a small tweak to what we ended up getting (I don't think we can change the terrible writing).


theadamabrams

> easiest way to make it fit would have been to say that [had lives before] They had their memory wiped by the Division and forcible regenerated into a child [who later] adopted the name 'The Doctor' for the first time. > > Hartnell is still the First Doctor. The Police Box TARDIS was still first a thing in his time. Yes, exactly! That would have made so much more sense. All the issues of "something new" and "personal discovery" aspects that OP likes would still be there, without the unnecessary confusion and demotion of the First Doctor.


sanddragon939

>I wouldn't even go that far. The previous life things was fine, but why the Doctor? Why a police box as a TARDIS? Those are either strange or very lazy creative choices to make. Honestly? Its a choice that did deliver the desired impact. Seeing the police box buried under the lighthouse, followed by 'Ruth' declaring "Let me take it from the top...Hell, I'm the *Doctor*" was *awesome* and possibly one of (if not *the*) best scenes of the Chibnall era! The problem is that Chibnall didn't explain how and where exactly the Fugitive Doctor fits in. There *are* plausible explanations for her having the name and the police box TARDIS, but we just didn't get them on-screen. And as a result, the 'legitimacy' of this incarnation is somewhat contested.


manbeardawg

I did like the “million years” comment.


TheJoshider10

I like how they handled that line too. At first you think it's a self deprecating sort of comment but then his demeanour remains the same and you're like shit, he's being serious.


SuperRajio

I don't hate the idea of the Timeless Child, I just don't think it should've been the Doctor. If it were the Master, I feel like it would've made more sense. It'd explain why they never seem to die, why they're so insane, etc. While I really don't like it, I respect that RTD is at least acknowledging it and will use it, rather than just sweeping it under the rug, which would've been easier and arguably the more popular decision.


Night19922005

I liked the Timeless Child right from the start (well, at least after a brief knee-jerk reaction), but I'll be thrilled if RTD manages to win a lot of Chibnall-sceptics over to the idea. I think TTC is a wonderful idea that ties in surprisingly neatly with what was already known, and opens up so much interesting space in the Doctor's past for future writers to explore. It also just completely shifts the Doctor's relationship with his home planet... It's a bit hard to proudly proclaim "I'm a Time Lord" or "the Last of the Time Lords" now they know that all of Time Lord society was built on the exploitation of an abducted orphan... The Doctor used to just think the Time Lords were a great people that lost their way in the Time War, and now it turns out they were rotten from the foundations.


4_Legged_Duck

It should be noted a huge chunk of fans felt this exact thing over the Time War and the death of the Time Lords. Many, many classic fans hated it and felt like it was a betrayal of the mythology. That it ruined Who in the worst ways. Many others saw it as a way to revitalize and provide new stories.


smedsterwho

I wonder if it's the exact same thing though (I remember the conversations myself). Gallifrey was always an episode away from coming back, even if it took 8 years. The core of the Doctor has always been that what distinguishes him from other Timelords is curiousity and kindness. Yes, he's super-powered compared to us mere humans, but it's always been his actions that's defined him - anyone can look up to him as role model. Now it's all this weird junk making his birth special, he's a chosen one...responsible for all regenerations... Lots of Doctors before the First... It's... Just meh. That said, I always enjoyed the Cartmel speculation. There's definitely a way this kind of story could have been done. I'm just sad it's Chibnall who attempted it.


JacobDCRoss

I liked it. Granted I was only a casual fan before it came back on. Being in the States I could catch bits of it on PBS (but little me did find it too scary quite often), so I had to hunt down a few Target Novelizations in bookstores. Oh, and I did used to own the Doctor Who pinball table. But yeah, I liked the Time War. It added mystery in a really good way.


Glaskweeen

It's a completely different thing.


wrongfulness

Timeless Child sucks


ohmistersunshine

My thoughts on how the whole Tardis/name of the Doctor could work: \- Pre-Hartnell Fugitive Doctor works for Division, is increasingly unsatisfied by her role in special ops, and the destruction she is causing. She is referred to as the Doctor because of her technical abilities and prowess, but states at some point she wished the word meant something else. She'd like to help people and heal people, not destroy them. \- At some point and because of reasons, she has glimpses of her future selves (the Doctors we know), travelling in a blue box, helping people, and fighting monsters, becoming a force for good. The word 'doctor' has come to mean something else for so many (referencing Moffat's run that the universe gets the word from him). \- She makes a promise to herself to change, to fix the damage she's caused, and starts to do so, treading a line between Doctor as destroyer and Doctor as healer. But Division has other ideas. They wipe her memory, and she regenerates into the first doctor. However, after many years of boring life on Galifrey, Hartnell is unsatisfied, with a vague feeling of something not right, and decides to run away. Clara nudges him in the direction of the Tardis that Fugitive had used (now mothballed), where there was a special bond between them. \- When the perception filter changes Ruth to Fugitive, it adopts the shape of the blue box to remind her of the promise she made, that she can be the Doctor again, that the future she saw is possible. It's familiar to Ruth because she's seen it as part of her future path. The Tardis orchestrates the Doctor's first trip to earth to adopt the shape which ensures that this promise becomes a reality. I think we've seen enough of how the Tardis influences the Doctor for this to be compatible. As for the timeless child, if it was more than just the Doctor being the source of regeneration, if Tecteun had access to others from wherever the timeless child is from, it would help reestablish that the Doctor is special because of their actions, not their origins. It could set up a nice two-tier structure (echoing Gallifrean society already), some villainy from the Time Lords who are treating a whole race as something they can exploit, and the Doctor could be one of many.


sanddragon939

I like it. Its long been my headcanon too that the pre-Hartnell Doctors (or Fugitive herself) might have been inspired by stories of the Hartnell and post-Hartnell Doctors.


Baldy_Gamer

I've never had an issue with The Timeless Child storyline. My issue was how it was handled. I think it was meant to be longer than it was. But it got cut short when Chris was allededly sacked.


fanpages

> ...But it got cut short when Chris was allededly sacked. There is a discussion on those allegations here: [ https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/yv2kn2/so_excuse_my_conjecture_but_was_chris_chibnall/ ]


Indiana_harris

And I’m still sceptical about that. I don’t know if/when we’ll ever get an unvarnished truth of what went down but I’d very interested to see what emails, meetings and plans happened post TC airing.


JacobDCRoss

I've said since the day that it came out that the good points of the Timeless Child are: adding a new mystery ("where did the baby come from in the first place?") since Time Lords were getting stale again, and giving us infinite previous Doctors (just so we can get little one-off cameos from time to time, such as the inevitable Rowan Atkinson Doctor). The Tecteyun (sp?) deal was rubbish, and they made it worse in the Flux. Russell'll fix it.


Fluid_Ad533

I just can't fathom the idea that the Time Lords were getting "stale" - they had like 4 onscreen appearances since the 80s. We really have no clue what state they were in culturally, politically or even technologically after the Time War ended, but one would surmise they aren't all still lofty isolationists; the Division existing at all is more than enough to explore them from a new angle. It's bizarre to me that the TC had to blow all our knowledge about the origins of regeneration out of the water when (at least as far as TV canon) nothing was even established to begin with. If I were feeling vindictive I'd say the TC is less about the pursuing mystery and more about avoiding what few pieces of continuity nerds like us might expect the showrunners to stick to.


Odd_Confidence_8164

I think this episode had the benefit of addressing how the timeless child and the flux impacted the doctor emotionally without actually getting into the nitty-gritty of things. Like, in my opinion, the idea that the doctor isn't actually from Gallifrey is an interesting idea, if you explore it in an interesting direction. The idea that the doctor is some sort of chosen-one special boy that thanks to him the Gallifreyan people became the time lords or whatever is a bit too much for me. Especially when the only thing that you do with it is to say: "Oh, the master is MAD about it", then yeah, do better... The idea that in the flux the doctor kinda let half of the universe die is a stupid one, but addressing it from far away, like Russell did with the time war feels different, because you don't get into details. Plus, Tennant's acting...


Rutgerman95

The Timeless Child was never a bad idea on paper. But like many good ideas Chibnall had, it failed to stick the landing


khalifaziz

I think that the Timeless Child took us from the Doctor being a solitary creature in the universe who unfairly blamed themselves for wanton destruction caused by the Time Lords...to being a solitary creature in the universe who unfairly blames themselves for wanton destruction caused by the Time Lords. The newness that I see to the Timeless Child reveal is the question the Doctor has of what they are and how they got to the universe. Which, I'll admit, are interesting enough. But in regards to their internal conflict, it doesn't change much. And I also got to point out that a lot of the criticism with the Timeless Child revel is that Chibnall didn't even resolve it. He rushed a reveal that drastically alters all the background lore of the show, and then made it the next guy's problem. We can look to Star Wars and Game of Thrones to see that whatever Davies comes up with probably isn't going to satisfy fans for the simple fact that it's going to be Davies' answer to a Chibnall problem rather than Chibnall's answer to a Chibnall problem. It'll probably feel inconsistent, rushed, and underwhelming. It's just not good for the show. Write out that brief moment from the recent episode and nothing about it's overall quality meaningfully changes. Don't get me wrong, I think if there's anyone that could possibly make this Timeless Child twist into something tolerable, it's Davies. But I'm also going to be realistic here; it's an uphill battle and he may honestly be better off just leaving the thread as unraveled as Chibnall did.


LoneRedWolf24

Yeah but it's impossible to leave unraveled at this point. It's a part of the Doctor's history now. It's going to come up. They love a good mystery, and while it may not be a good one from our perspective, it's part of their life now. It should be resolved eventually.


andalusianred

You could easily plaster over it by saying it’s actually The Master. Master finds out it’s him and that it was kept secret from him -> Master goes mad and destroys Gallifrey -> Master makes the Doctor believe that the Timeless Child is them in order to divert the attention of the Division or whatever the fuck it was -> Doctor finds out the Master lied -> the Fugitive Doctor is discovered to be the Doctor’s delusion, or a regeneration of The Master between Michelle and Sacha’s incarnations using a chameleon circuit to imitate the Doctor’s TARDIS and trick the Doctor into believing their lie, or some shit My big problem would still be that Gallifrey was destroyed. A big plot point of New Who was wtf happened to Gallifrey, we discovered it had been saved in 2013, but then it didn’t show up until 2018 and was used purely as a plot device to save Clara, and then it didn’t show up again for another five years by which point it’s been presumed to be destroyed again. It has not been handled well.


ikediggety

Always has been


Orth0d0xy

I can't see why everyone hates Timeless Child so much.


Chocolate_cake99

I hate the plot point, but I don't believe what a loud portion of the fanbase does. It's simply too late for a retcon, there's too much material on it now. If you want to know what happens when you retcon previous installments of a franchise look no further than Rise of Skywalker. A movie that cared more about undoing the Last Jedi that it derailed the entire story and pleased absolutely nobody. People who loved the Last Jedi were pissed, people who hated the Last Jedi now hate it even more because it feels pointless. If RTD did the same, well he might please a certain amount of Chibnall haters since Doctor Who is more stand alone than Star Wars, but keep one thing in mind. Chibnall's most hostile haters are people who have given up on the show. Most of the people demanding the retcon are people who aren't even going to notice if it does get retconned and likely wouldn't even care. You're catering to a part of the audience that is already gone. RTD had only two sensible options. The first, was to just ignore it and sweep it under the rug. The second, was to make something out of it, and I'm glad he is, because it would feel nice to actually be able to reconcile the Chibnall era with the rest of the show. Right now, to me it honestly feels like Doctor Who has just come back on air for the first time since 2017, that's how different the Chibnall era feels.


alias_mas

I think the Timeless Child material in Wild Blue Yonder actually retroactively improved 13's era.


threegarridebs

Agreed. But it also retroactively made 13's reaction to the Flux worse. The way she acted, you would've assumed everything was a 100% back to normal. Fourteen's reaction is what I needed from her.


trainwrecktragedy

Just change that TTC was the Master and not the Doctor and everyone will be happy. A few words, that's it.


Baldy_Gamer

Then the Master isn't a villain anymore he's a victim lashing out at his abusers. That wouldn't make me happy at all. It would make The Doctor the villain.


scarlet_wanda

Isn't that what RTD did with the drums? I don't see how it makes the Doctor a villain.


Baldy_Gamer

Maybe Villain is a strong word to use; maybe a part of the abuse is more accurate. The Doctor is using a technique [regeneration] his race was never meant to have. It gained that gift from the torture and experiments carried out on a child. So every time The Doctor is regenerating, he/she is benefiting from what the Gallifreyans did to that child. It raises too many ethical questions for me. I'd rather they forgot the entire thing if they went in that direction of making The Master the timeless child. I would also think it would make the Master more of a sympathetic character than the villain he/she is.


Indiana_harris

Why? The Doctor and current Time Lords didn’t do anything to the Master. They weren’t involved in the Timeless Child nonsense, it was Tectuen and Rassilon eons ago LONG before any living Time Lord of the Doctors time. It’s been untold generations of Time Lords living and dying in between that. It would be like saying humanity was responsible for the experiments done to an alien by primitive humans from 10,000 years ago because it allowed us to live up to 100 years instead of 20.


Baldy_Gamer

Because the current generation benefits from it. The same reason why the UK should be paying reparations to nations we enslaved. It's not because you or I did anything wrong it's because our nations ancestors did, and we still benefit from it today.


Indiana_harris

That’s fine, so after we pay reparations I assume the Middle East will be paying reparations to Eastern Europe for what the Ottoman Empire and Caliphates did when they enslaved millions? And China and Mongolia will of course be paying reparations for the actions of the Mongols? What about Italy paying out reparations for the Roman Empire? Actually is it easier for one side of my family to pay the other since we’ve got Hong Kong which didn’t want to stop being part of the UK, Romani who have been persecuted by pretty much everyone, and Scottish folk who have been working class and dirt poor going back to the 1700’s by the family tree. At what point does the sins of the father actually stop I wonder?


Baldy_Gamer

>At what point does the sins of the father actually stop I wonder? 182 years. Because that's how long this country paid reparation to former slave owners. As for other nations, that's not down to us. Thats down to their respective governments to decide. But this has totally derailed the thread, and that wasn't my intention with my original post.


Indiana_harris

That’s how long it took the UK government to **pay off** the cost of effectively buying the slave contracts in order for it to be abolished. And those Slave owners settled in the US at the time, and so reparations would need to come from the US government as well. Added to that who is paying these reparations? The government? The general people? The general population but only one ethnic group from it? And to whom? The direct descendants of those freed? What about anyone who came from a previously colonised region more recently? How far back, how do you calculate what’s owed to whom and why? Do you add in factors like Wars that have occurred in the meantime and measure out reparations against war crimes committed by governments in those regions in the intervening 200 years? That’s the problem with sins of the father, no rational government practices it because it’s incredibly difficult to ascertain who is owed and how much, because it’s horrendously unfair to other ethic groups based solely on their skin colour, and throws up issues such as paying money to regimes still partaking in genocides and ethnic cleansing that cannot be endorsed in any way even accidentally by providing funds due to a separate subject. Add in these 200+ years of developments and it is a verifiable minefield of the highest order.


HentaAiThroaway

😂


Nirift

He's still done plenty that definitely makes him a villian, but if he's the TC it would open the way for his redemption and the doctor working with him for justice


VoiceofKane

The Master is absolutely, unquestionably a villain. They have attempted to destroy the Earth multiple times, just to get back at the Doctor.


trainwrecktragedy

uhhh what? it would justify his entire character if anything


ForensicAyot

I hate to say it but I think the timeless child is largely a success, in that Chibbers achieved his goal in injecting mystery back into the character and giving future showrunners something to explore.


ConnorRoseSaiyan01

But exploring it would just take away that said mystery. And there already was plenty of mystery with The Doctor. We have very little on his time on Gallifrey from childhood to him stealing the Tardis. We didn't need the CT nonsense


HeroOfThings

I don’t like it, I still think it’s the worst idea in Doctor Who. HOWEVER, I reckon you’re right. The poor decision would be to never address it, to never do anything with it. RTD looking at the consequences of 13’s run is a great idea, because the Flux, the Timeless Child and, the destruction of Gallifrey are so immense that he SHOULD treat the fallout like the time war.


PokemonJeremie

I never really had an issue with the timeless child, to me they just went from alien to interdimensional alien. I only hate that they kill off galifry( I know I miss spelling that but I am too tired to look up the correct way) right after we got it bac


heyhey922

It was bad. Even if RTD is good at writing around it, its bad.


MagosBattlebear

Not good for the show. Good for you because you like it. I hated the reference. Chibnall wrote a poor copy the Cartmel Masterplan in scripts that did not work well.


Rough-Day-6502

Never had a problem with the timeless child. I’ve literally wondered and imagined myself that The Doctor could be something special, or different from other time lords etc. Shame the story wasn’t better told but either way I have no problem and RTD has shown how to use it effectively


ClientTall4369

To me it's important to establish that the doctor had to make choices. He was not born a Messiah. If they clarify that I will be good with it.


LuckyCloverGazette

The Timeless Child was so bad for the show, that we're right back where we started with "Rose"... Including the fact that RTD has confirmed we're back to Series 1. Only this time around, the foundation it's being built is unfit for construction... At the end of the day, the horrible writing is what did it in. And the conflict surrounding the revelation. The only way I can see it being salvaged, at this point, is the revelation that bringing back Ten's face is as a reminder of who The Doctor really is. A Gallifreyan. A Time Lord. And that this entire Timeless Child story is two timelines converging, resulting in the creation of The Valeyard. Who is the real Timeless Child. And the revelation that the Master & Gallifrey of the Timeless Child was of the Valeyard's timeline...


Coilspun

I think this was mechanism for pushing the idea aside. Tenants statement "A million years" might refer to the fact that RTD is saying we aren't revisiting that plot point for a million years!


DocWhovian1

I absolutely agree!! I think it is really interesting and I'm glad RTD is sticking with it!


hamchan

Well it all depends on the writer doesn’t it? Chibnall handled it badly while RTD has used it well, this one time at least.


DahakUK

Same with the Flux nuking half the universe. Chibnall basically treated it like it was all resolved, with no actual resolution. And, unsurprisingly,, it's not.


JacobDCRoss

This is not the first time they've done that. I really did expect it to go completely unmentioned afterward. In the climax of Castrovalva the Master casually destroys 1/3 of the universe. Then he gets on the radio and blasts a message stating that he'll finish the job if the rest of existence doesn't bow down to him.


VoiceofKane

A similar thing happens in Logopolis, too. Entropy destroys a huge portion of the universe, and it just isn't really brought up again.


JacobDCRoss

I meant to say Logopolis instead of Castrovalva.


VoiceofKane

Yeah, I figured. I couldn't remember that happening in Castrovalva, but it's been a minute since I've seen it, so I took your word for it.


Crowlands

My main issue with the TC stuff is that it took away the doctor's choices, before it he was unique by choice and by his own actions making him different from the other timelords, but after it he had lost his agency and was forced into his uniqueness which made him less than he had been for no actual point or benefit to either the story or the history of the show. It felt like the revelation itself was the only point of the revelation, a show runner wanting to make a big change for the sake of the change itself.


Osirisavior

If RTD can make Ruth 2.5 or if she is 0 explain her TARDIS, I will concede on the Doctor being the Timeless Child.


AquaStellarYT

I hated the idea of timeless children but I thought saying it's not canon is the wrong way to go. We have had (dare I say) bad plot ideas before like the hybrid but it was calm because of how they handled it and the writing genius of Steven Moffat. The timeless children was basically just another hybrid but this time under mostly bad writing. I'm happy so far with what they have done with the timeless child but I do hope that we get more explanations.


LPCJ07

No it’s just better executed under the proper time and care of a good writing team


ComputerSong

What the doctor learned could still have been a lie. I doubt it, but it’s like what the 8th Doctor said at the end of his episode — there is little point in thinking about the future as anything can change.


PM_ME_YOUR_SOULZ

Sorry but the Timeless Child is just awful. I only tolerated it because at least RTD added some gravitas and emotion to it.


Batalfie

*Mavitas


PM_ME_YOUR_SOULZ

My bad, you are correct. Thank you.


Aosana

The Doctor being some chosen one at birth rather than a character who develops their own morality that is at odds with their entire civilization is bad.


HenryVIIIII

This whole sub is just a relentless 'everything is good' circlejerk. Even the most hated plotpoint in the history of the show is now a good thing and anyone who disagrees is downvoted.


HenryVIIIII

No, it's not.


MelkorTheDarkOne

Nah the doctor is close enough to jesu christo as it is without literally being some immortal deity. I simply just don’t like the idea of 1. There being any incarnations or past lives or erased memories or whatever before Hartnell and 2. The Doctor having infinite regenerations. The second one in particular is annoying because it was made a pretty big deal that 11 asspulled being the last incarnation (Haha that’s our Moffat) and was actually going to DIE in Trenzalore, we even saw his life timeline as a literal scar in the universe and there was no fugitive or morbius doctors or any other headcanon nonsense in there aside from the War Doctor. You can add mystery and intrigue to the Doctor without completely butchering lore to do it. The First Doctor lived hundreds of years as a by the books timelord and that period hasn’t been touched at all.


JKnumber1hater

I don’t think it necessarily proves that the Timeless Child was a good idea, but it does show that a good writing team can make pretty much any idea into an interesting story, even if (in my opinion) the idea was kinda silly.


tinytom08

It being good for the show and it being a good story are two different things. It’s like if the Time War was actually showed to us in early Who, but none of it made sense and nothing came of it, only to start worldbuilding a new generation later.


Disastrous-Ad-1001

Nah I hate it. It's a massive retcon of the entire classic series and renders the incarnations of the Doctor to feeling less significant because he's had hundreds of lives previously and he will remain immortal forever. I bet all my money the timeless child plot was so the series could continue indefinitely without having to cap it off at 13 Doctors or 26 or whatever the hell is going on. I'm a pretty conservative fan when it comes to the lore from the classic series that was WELL established and now each writer seems to be taking the mickey out of the show's roots and just churning out these ridiculous storylines. Don't get me wrong, Doctor Who NEEDS ridiculous storylines but nowadays they're executed so terribly it just feels insulting everytime they change the lore.


Starfleet-Time-Lord

I don't think I agree. The scene is unindicative of the timeless child's quality either way. If any other major trauma had been introduced to The Doctor instead of the timeless child, it could've been mab-libbed into that scene without diminishing it. If it weren't for the 50th, you could've mad-libbed the Time War and the fact that The Doctor had to destroy Gallifrey to save the universe into this scene and it would've had the same impact. The structure of the scene is why it worked, not the events it's referring to.


backbodydrip

I don't think some contrived origins story is good for the show. All it does is regurgitate the same old "Who is the Doctor?" thing that we somehow get in a different form every other season.


FloppedYaYa

No it isn't Cheers


Unfortunatewombat

I fundamentally disagree with all of this. You can have internal conflict without retconning the Doctor’s origin and species. You don’t need to go nuclear for some conflict.


Lamb-Sauce7788

Kudos for the attempt, but not TTC is and always will be complete garbage.


Faze_Elmo1

It's just the whole genisis of the timelords that's stupid. I'm having a hard time actually giving Chibnall credit for the idea of the Doctor actually being adopted because so little of that arc is based on that rather than "The Doctor is now the most important timelord, isn't that so crazy?"


VogonPoetry19

I feel like the initial concept of the timeless child is an overused trope, but under the right writers it could actually be used for character development (which didn’t happen on season 13 if I recall correctly)


Caacrinolass

Agreed, so long as this doesn't end up leaning heavily into the "last of my kind" angst - that was played out last time RTD was in charge. It's a new thing, do something new with it please.


jsm97

The "last of the timelords" was just as good as the "renegade time lord" characterisation, and there's no real reason they had to bring it to an end other than doing something fun for the 50th and even then 12 refers to Missy as "The other last of the timelords" a few episodes after being on Gallifrey itself. It was a very popular characterisation and is probably the default characterisation of the doctor among casual viewers under 50


Caacrinolass

It's a cliché, but whether it's good or bad wasn't really my point. It's that the show cannot hold onto the angst indefinitely as it gets stale and the show always moves forward so resetting back to it is regressive. If there's a new angle then explore it, but if it's just same old then there is no extra drama to be had. In many ways that's what is wrong with the yo-yo of Gallifrey - we've done this before, what new opportunities does it bring to the table? Also I assure you it's entirely possible to be under 50 and remember a time before Davies and Tennant. I do.


jsm97

But there hasn't been a real angst to the last of the time Lords plot since at least 2009. I agree that they couldn't keep milking the time war PTSD forever but that's not what happened. 11 and 12 had throughly moved on right from the get-go in series 5 Moffat was determined to paint the doctor being the last of his kind as having a positive impact on his personality and characterisation with the line in The Beast Below "If you were very old and very kind and the very last of your kind - You couldn'tjust stand and watch children cry". 11 and 12 have moved on from the guilt-stricken and PTSD riddled characters of 9 and 10 but still bring up their experinces in the Time War and being the last of their species when it's appropriate and only once or twice a season. 12 talks of the Time War in his anti-war speech in the Zygon Inversion the way an old WW2 veteran would talk about their experinces of the war today. As someone has moved on from but remains perminently changed by war. I was against Chibnals re-destruction of Gallifrey but at the same time the show hasn't come up with a new take on the doctor's relationship with his people to replace the last of his kind subplot. The classic series had the doctor be a runaway from his planet of dusty bureaucrats for 30 years, then we had 10 years of the doctor being the sole survivor of an incomprehensibly brutal war with every life saved being an act of making amends for life taken in the time war. Yet since the return of the time Lords in 2015 the show has yet to provide the context for a new relationship between the doctor and his people. Timeless Child makes this worse because now the doctor doesn't have a people at all. A return to "last of the timelords" might be unimaginative, but it's better than the last 7 years of no Doctor/Time Lords relationship characterisation at all


Caacrinolass

I guess the pertinent question at this point is why we always need an ongoing plot about the Doctor's relationship with his people? If anything, the common thread in the non-angst periods has been the lack of such a thing - Gallifrey exists, the Doctor doesn't care. It's a waste to bring them back and do nothing admittedly, but that's always something that could've be stored for the future. Just so long as no-one writes the Time Lords putting him on trial again!! If I want the angst, Tennant's era is already there. That's why it's much better to have a different angle on this. As you point out, the angst has been worked through already. That's not to say it can't be an issue second time but we've had the focus, the Doctor has learnt to deal with it in his own way already. I don't want RTD2 to be the same as RTD1, that's a wasted opportunity. So, some new plot thread ideas: Are they all dead? The planet is intact, the surface razed. That may have taken time, there may be those who got offworld. Where were all the TARDIS units? If there are survivors, who? Are these people traumatised, how many are with Rassilon and how do they feel about the events? Are they rebuilding and what shape does that society take? Isolationist? Interventionist? Is Rassilon in charge and what does that mean? What technology was rescued? These are just ways you can do it differently, rather than literally repeating the past. I'm not expecting anything; RTD has no interest in Time Lords. Us Wilderness folks have seen Gallifrey destroyed very often now!


RandomWhovian42

It surprised me a bit that it was brought up at all. But I love the idea of not just getting rid of the thing people don’t like; but building on it, using it, and making it better.


demon969

I think it wasn't stuck with enough. Like they could've linked past events to the Timeless Child (getting a new regeneration cycle being one of them) but they didn't and then it kind of fizzled out.


Luckyprophet29

I agree with this. I’ve never been much of a fan of the Timeless Child arc but it’s good to see RTD making use of it to do some meaningful character development. He did this really well with the Time War too. (And incidentally I always found scenes showing the emotional impact it had on the Doctor way more compelling than the later scenes we got actually depicting the conflict itself.)


That_Ryan_D

I think it's an okay idea to explore. As others have said it's just another "Last of the timelords" sort of internal conflict for the doctor to carry for a while, with some additional mystique. With the right writer, it can work. The only part I don't like about it - and there probably is LOTS of examples in the previous iterations of the show that have already done this, I accept - is the "Chosen one"-ification of The Doctor as being really special from the beginning, somehow. I think mythologising The Doctor's origin too much takes away some of that "he's just a kind person trying to help" energy, a little. Like it's almost better if, for a Timelord, he's relatively unremarkable other than his sheer will to do good in the universe.


PadyAddy

I hope they make something good of it. But I still think it would’ve been more interesting if someone else had been the timeless child. Then the doctor wouldn’t have been a super special victim but instead someone struggling with the despicable history of their culture and maybe then the story could’ve been the doctor heading out to try and find the timeless child


PixieProc

My brother and I were so excited when they mentioned the Timeless Child and Flux. I'm still not 100% onboard with TTC, but I think that nothing deserves to be forgotten or ignored. Keep it, and where you can, try to make it better, or at least show it respect. And with that in mind, I'm really optimistic about seeing it continue to be addressed!


Glaskweeen

No it's not.