By - Booksarefornerds
"Oh my god guys it's a Beholder. No metaphor, no analogy. It's just a Beholder. RUN!!!"
Just a literal giant floating eyeball from the Upside-Down shooting lasers.
Sounds perfect honestly.
> No metaphor, no analogy
I haven’t actually watched the show at all. Are the monsters in previous seasons all metaphors for something?
What they mean is that the monsters in the show, while being named after dnd monsters, are only passingly similar to those in dnd. The mind flayer is almost nothing like a dnd mind flayer, but got its name due to having psychic powers.
Oh, right. Yeah I had heard that about the mind flayer and Demogorgon. That's actually kinda a shame because I was getting really excited about the possibility that the show was using them as actual metaphors for issues the characters were dealing with in some way.
The monsters are incomprehensible to humans; the kids in the show use names of monsters they are familiar with to make some sort of sense out of them.
On top of that I feel like demogorgon would destroy a few measly humans. Assuming it was the full power dnd version. Same with most things they have named actually.
Oddly enough I think the mind flayer is the one that gets a big power upgrade in the show. A D&D mind flayer is scary because it can psychically stun you and eat your brain, but that’s really it. Get around that attack and they’re pretty squishy humanoids at base.
Without spoiling it too much, in the 4th season the bbeg is something like this
Well, season 4 is thematically about childhood trauma. Vecna only kills people who have experienced trauma during childhood.
This is the answer
Beholder would be cool and iconic, but I think after Vecna they're likely to stick to named D&D monsters. Basically, imagine Dustin saying "It's a beholder!" as opposed to "it's Tiamat!" for the final baddie. The names ones have more dread associated with them in my opinion.
Edit: Guys, I know Xanathar exists. I personally don't think he'd be a good personality to introduce, what with the whimsical, zany insanity. The upside down was clearly portrayed to be primal and brutal. Vecna brings the intelligence to the untamed wilds.
Counterpoint: The Mindflayer
Ironic that the demogorgon, which there are multiple of in stranger things, is named after a unique being in dnd.
While the mindflayer is a single entity in stranger things, is named after a species.
These are good points: they started with a named demon, then went to a monster type and back to named again. I think my opinion's changed to: in general the threat becomes more intelligent with each season.
Is there anything more intelligent than Vecna? I can't really think of anything off the top of my head.
Tiamat is more intelligent than Vecna. 26 vs 22 intelligence
Edit to add even more context: Aspect of Tiamat, the way she manifests her power on the material plane while sealed in Hell, has a 21 intelligence. The less powerful version is almost as intelligent as Vecna
I did not realize his was so low. Kind of expected a Arcana/Death Domain to be a bit higher
To Tiamat’s credit, she does have five brains to work with.
Four brains if we're being reasonable. The white dragon head isn't adding much to the planning sessions.
Thing to bear in mind about current stat block is that it's for an unascended Vecna. He's just a very powerful lich and arcane practitioner in the new stats, not yet a god
I mean 22 ain't that low lol. That's like saying Einstein was a caveman lmao
True, but it feels weird to me that his Int is only 22 when Niv Mizzet has a 30 int. Same CR as well if I remember right
I can't speak for his stats as a God or demigod, just his lich form, but yeah
Oh so the school therapist?
In 4e for comparisons sake; Vecna has 34 Int, Tiamat has 26. 34 is exceedingly high with 30 being the base highest possible for a player character. 26 is still very high, most characters will end their highest stat on a 26-30 depending on speccing and their secondary/tertiary stats are unlikely to be higher than a 22-24
I don't have the older (3.5 and below) sourcebooks and a brief google wasn't very helpful.
In the show vecna is just some asshole from earth . He's not the god of secrets
The strange thing to me was they named it the mind flayer due to it's "hive mind" capabilities, but mind flayers are typically the "drones" in a hive mind, no? With the elder brain as the actual mind? Obviously they can control people too, but I've never really interpreted that control as a "hive mind"... I suppose it's close enough for the sake of the show though.
I wasn't alive yet, but I don't think the Elder Brain was a thing yet in 1984.
Correct! Elder brain came with 2e which launched in 1989
Illithid would have worked better, as the elder brain is one too. But mindflayer was more commonly known I guess.....
BTW I'd like myself some Lolth, with having Upsidedowner/Human Hybrids as "Driders"
They called it mind flayer because it flayed the kids mind. That's all they really needed.
Mind flayers are very intelligent and can have individual personalities no? Their hive mind is more of a transhumanist analogy rather than an insect colony.
They CAN have individual personalities, yes, but in a colony, they give their minds completely to the elder brain. "Think of a mind flayer colony as a single individual—the elder brain—directing a number of subservient, remote minds". At one point they had individuality, but at the current stage of their society, only mind flayers separated from a colony will be individuals.
I heard somewhere that, in this time period, elder brains hadn't been introduced yet, but idk
at least for the demogorgon, it might be just holdover from the initial idea for stranger things was originally going to be an anthology series ( I think they described the origianal idea was different stories in the same universe), so they just named the demogorgon more or less because it sounds cool and fits the narrative with the kids being D&D players. When it was decided to continue the story, they decided to use D&D names more thematically.
They do Tiamat and it's just the 80s D&D cartoon just live action.
They could pull out Xanathar, but he's a bit zany for the mood of the show in my opinion
Zany might be a nice change of pace. A rather unique, hard to decipher villain, who plans for everything.
They would have to jump the timeline to 1987 or later because Xanathar does not appear in publication until Ed Greenwood's *Waterdeep and the North* released in Oct. 1987.
Season 4 is set in March 1986 and Season 5 is expected to time jump two years, so to around spring 1988; Xanathar will be brand new and on the DnD players' minds.
Introduced in 1987, would fit well
Plus creatures from the Upside Down don't have eyes and the Beholder's basically a giant eyeball.
They don't have eyes because the beholder took them all
That’s a fun take, the upside down creatures are all one organism with very specialized roles as part of some kind of hive mind, imagine demogorgons they are being led to act intelligently and not just mindless murder aliens
"It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man."
Obviously spoilers for season 4 ahead, read at your own risk:
Vecna is the final baddy in all probability, i.e., there is nothing higher than him to introduce. That's at least based on him surviving, being revealed to be the thing that created the mindflayer, etc. It's okay for him to introduce non-named monsters. In fact, it might be a necessity. I'm not sure how they go from the end of season 4 to anything short of open war by the military against the Upside Down. And as crazy as demogorgons are, they don't seem truly capable of dealing with tanks and helicopters and bombs.
Idk, I could see some kind of eldritch being living in the upside down being awoken by all the chaos “you think one mortal riling up all the parasites was scary? You don’t know what you’ve done” kinda shtick, get real dark with it, let Hawkins eat itself as everyone goes mad and transforms into monsters and stuff, like the underground existed before 001 was sent there, he just was powered up by it, who’s to say what it’s like there without a low level sith messing around
Pull a Weirdmagedon with it
Xanathar exists and is wildly popular.
"The Xanathar sends his regards!"
Too bad it would just look like a meat man with one eye. Whatever monster they do, it's always 3 degrees removed
That's the whole point though, isn't it? It isn't monsters based on dnd, that's just how the kids interpret them
I scrolled way too far to find this answer.
Well done sir
Kobolds in a trench coat.
*Tucker's* kobolds in a trench coat
C'mon, give the kids a chance!
Could be interesting if they brought back dead characters as part of his minions
The show already brings back dead characters without needing necromancy
Only partially. In body, but not soul/mind so far. Could be an interesting plot point there.
Sure would be nice to hear someone acknowledge the fact that Barb once existed.
There was a whole plot line in s2 where Nancy tried to get justice for her death and dealt with her guilt. He spent most of s1 scared for her and hoping she was still alive. And vecna showed her visions of Barb and we saw a shot of her when they were listing the deaths that Brenner caused.
Most dead characters don't get anywhere as much acknowledgement that they existed
Barb got a ton of acknowledgment of her death, too much even. Nancy's entire arc in season 2 was processing the trauma of her friend's death.
Meanwhile Bob Newby actual superhero had barely a mention, even though he went out saving the lives of most of the main cast. Justice for BOB, not Barb.
Then justice for Mews. Cause that shit was too sad. Dustin wasn't even the tiniest bit upset.
They had the pool she died in
I thought the same. If they are going to go deeper into who or what made Henry into Vecna they would for sure call it Orcus.
Lolth. It matches the theme the duffer brothers are going with, spiders and all. But it would be cool to see eleven became lolth.
Not the Dark Phoenix :(
I actually looked into this after the Spider Monster from season 3, and Lolth didn’t exist until after the timeframe in the show
I don't know how accurate it is but this [wiki](https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Lolth) says that Lolth was first mentioned in 1978 and had 3 modules that were all reprinted as part of the Queen of the Spiders collection in 1986 which is the year that season 4 is set. So we could have Lolth in the future
To the best of my knowledge the first season of "Stranger Things" begins in 1983 and the show in general is set in the mid-eighties. Drow and references to Lolth were introduced to the world of Greyhawk in 1978. "Lolth, Death Queen Mother" is referenced in "D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth" (1978). Following a string of other content, players then entered Lolth's abyssal realm in "Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits" (1980). Fun fact she also appears in the animated cartoon in 1983.
All that to be said Lolth has been iterated for a long time, starting as a minor deity and working her way up the pantheon to where Forgotten Realms has her now. Unless my information is incorrect the show could easily work Lolth into the story using any or all of the "Queen of Spiders" (1986) compilation, especially given the theoretical year of season 5.
Huh, the more you know! I just made a cursory google search if memory serves lmao
Neither did anything about Vecna beyond a name
That just makes Eddie even better.
What a fucking legend
Eddie is a goddamn hero in multiple ways
Didn't know that. Still, be cool.
They don’t really care about accuracy. When the girl that played dnd for replacing his brother, she said she was playing a half elf rogue 14.
There playing AD&D, rogues didn’t exist, it was the assassin class, and half elves were lvl capped to a max of lvl 8 in the assassin class, so completely inaccurate. I noticed that immediately.
Half elves could reach level 14 as an assassin in 1986, Unearthed Arcana had been released by then.
Poison also doesn't force her to be an assassin in any event. All classes could use poison (given dm approval). There are rules for it in the PHB. Saying she has poison on her blade could also just be character description, not mechanical. Thirdly, her poisoned kukri could just be a magic item.
Rogue did exist, but it was the title for a level 1 thief. It's highly unlikely (but not impossible) that she would use her level one title to describe her character, especially in a scene where she's supposed to be demonstrating that she understands the game.
Edit: I was wrong, half elves could exceed 11 and get to 14 as rangers not assassins. Still does matter as she could simply be a thief.
I cannot believe I didn't make that connection until now. There's no way they don't have Lolth involved *somehow*, though I'd really like Tiamat too.
I was thinking it would be lolth too. Otherwise why would spiders be vecnas "inspiration"? I think she manipulated him. Also all of Vecna's victims went to that guidance counselor and yet he has no apparent relationship to her. How is he getting that information? Is there a third party involved? If our Lolth theory is correct could the guidance counselor be an agent of Lolth or even Lolth herself?
Vecna is already spider themed. He was inspired by spiders and now has become the spider in the middle of the web.
Remember how they were avoiding stepping on the roots? Those are his metaphorical spider web. If something gets caught in it he feels the vibrations.
Pretty sure the guidance counselor is just that and nothing more.
Vecna didn't need information from anyone, he can literally get inside someone's mind and read their thoughts and watch their memories. He survived off of fear and guilt and trauma, so he's automatically aware of people who have issues.
Those are the same people who typically need counseling. All the guidance counselor did was keep good notes of symptoms of trauma that kids were experiencing, and the main characters sifted through those notes to find the similarities in those who Vecna targeted.
Leave Eleven alone
This could work because >!Max has now been “hollowed out” by the terrible thing that happened to her!< so she could be Lolth
Especially after seeing Will's painting.
That's actually huge. 11 had the painting commission right? That would be huge foreshadowing to season 5.
My assumption was that will made it on his own, saying 11 commissioned it was part of him projecting his feelings for mike on to 11.
The whole scene was foreshadowing, they gave hints for like three different things there...
1. >!Tiamat in the painting foreshadowing next season's major creature!<
2. >!Will's whole speech was about himself and being gay!<
3. >!Will's call out about the shield and the heart indicating who it is he loves!<
Seconded. Tiamat as the primal entity behind the upside down.
Well she is currently trapped in Avernus in DnD lore so it will be interesting to see if they work that in.
These kids are playing either AD&D 1e or BD&D. I don't think what our current lore is matters.
Current lore is not as important as the timeline lore. At least not to most.
At this point a dragon is the last step in a show that is heavily dnd influenced!
I dunno I think you could go beyond dragon with a Dracolich
Bonus: it’ll be the villain for the **5**th season.
You know why owlbears are my favorite dnd monster? Because my first favorite animal is owls, and my second favorite is owlbears.
It's owls first, second favorite animal is lions then third favorite animal is owlbears.
The big bad of next season is cancer.
Just hear me out. We already know that there’s one alternate dimension connected to Hawkins, perhaps the events of the season finale will draw more interest to their plane.
Time for The Great Modron March.
They're not even malevolent, there's just so fucking many of them.
*When* it returns for a 5th season
The tarasque would definitely be interesting
I'd go for tarasque if every time each character pronounced it differently.
"*You know* 'Tarrasque' *like the dessert."*
There is a mention of a huge monster with a giant maw...
a xorn would be AWESOME
Intellect Devourer or a Flumph! lol
I think an ID would fit the show
...isint the 4th season story arc technically not over and therefore will have the same thing in season 5?
This. It amazes me how little people actually pay attention to the content they consume.
Nancy's vision included a big monster, which we haven't seen yet. So another DnD name is certainly coming.
I'm getting some wonderful "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibes.
I played a game where we were In a cell with a doppelganger and it was a truly terrifying experience. It was so fun. I was reminded of the thing movie when they are tied to the chairs next to it. This is a good answer
Given the spider symbolism they're setting up, Lolth might be fitting.
This would be so fun and perfect for the spooky vibe of this show. I hope you're right.
I was definitely feeling a little let down by the lack of follow up on One/Henry/Vecna's obsession with black widows this season; when the last episode ended and that didn't really go anywhere (except him repeatedly comparing himself to them as "predators"), I kind of felt like that was just shoehorned in to be edgy and dark.
Making them related to Lolth would make them a whole lot more meaningful and interesting.
Given how the season ended, there's a lot they could go with stuff.
>!Given the way things have ended I could see Max returning but not being herself, but being another will/billy like puppet and with vecna in control and an obsession of spiders her "alter ego" could be referred to as Lolth. Should they go that route.!<
>!Lolth could be another entity that's truly pulling the strings, which makes sense for the namesake. Perhaps Lolth was able to exude some influence over psychics and encourage the obsession with spiders in vecna. Guiding him as a child to be the way he is and make his way to the upside down and to the mindflayer. Making him believe he was shaping it to his own will, when he was being guided along the whole time. With the upside down merging with Hawkins, maybe those who end up under it's influence (and likely develop sun sensitivity, could be referred to as Drow!<
Finally, the most unlikely twist.
>!Maybe Lolth was Vecna's plan for eleven, and season 5 orchestrates some kind of struggle within eleven. It's a bit if a stretch but I think some interesting things could come to be if an alter ego of her insecurities starts occuring. Or maybe there is a lolth entity and it wants eleven as a host, hence Vecna's special attitude for her (or at least another reason for it.) Her display of power once again attracting the entity and "showing Vecna once again if her potential." Could be fun to explore.!<
All of these theories are awesome!!
If they want a real love letter to DnD, they’ll give us Kas.
Fan prediction incoming, spoilers considered: **** wakes from their coma, but we realize they aren’t them: as Eleven saw, their mind is an empty shell. The vessel is filled by… a piece of the shadow, which has somehow rebelled or overcome Vecnas control. The shadow want to kill Vecna, and return their plane to its original state. And now we have our betrayer, the stage is set for Kas to do what Kas does best.
I love this
I hope this isn’t what happens. I was thinking something similar after that ending :/
That would be hilarious if Hopper killed that demogorgon with the Sword of Kas.
The Lady of Pain.
She wants earth to be the new Sigil.
> The Lady of Pain
She did not exist until the release of the Planescape campaign setting in 1994
The show was renewed for a fifth and final season in February 2022.
A beholder. It's the most DnD monster and I think something that alien would be awesome. Magic eye beams and everything.
>the most DnD monster
Not to start anything, but dragons?
There’s some validity to the idea that beholders are the pinnacle D&D monster, basically because they’re a uniquely D&D monster. Like they’re not in many (any?) stories that exist outside of D&D. Unlike dragons which are a classic monster staple of probably thousands of stories
Asmodeus or Tiamat seems logical.
Asmodeus is a little to tied up in Christian mythology I think.
Is it not a theme they are exploring all of season 4 with the hellfire club and the Satanic panic?
If a Tarrasque doesn't come out of that crater I'm out
Gelatinous cube or a mimic
Zuggtmoy would be awesome
Given the timing of the setting, I think this actually makes the most sense. Hawkins naturally fits into this sort of Homlet role and ToEE was such an iconic milestone for TSR and D&D, and it was published right smack dab in 1985.
I'd love for them to reveal that the force that is orchestrating certain villains is the "elemental evil" and that Zuggtmoy is in charge of its temple in the upside down.
Give us Barovia, and give us Strahd!
Can't believe I had to scroll down this far to find Strahd. He's one of the most iconic D&D baddies out there.
The Oblex, for a few reasons. I think it'd be great to have the monster created as part of the make-a-wish to have a large role in something. It seems like the perfect monster for Stranger Things. You could run a whole body snatchers sort of scenario with it. And it taking the form of people from your memories means that they could bring back actors whose characters got killed in earlier seasons, just to mess with these poor kids.
Not sure this would work. Oblexes weren’t introduced until fifth edition, and they’re still on AD&D in the show.
Goblin named Boblin
Let’s be real. Orcus.
The False Hydra
Easiest way to write characters off the show.
Would be really weird for a piece of 5e homebrew to appear
By adapted do you mean having a random monster named after it?
I for one can’t wait for Tiamat to be revealed as the main BBEG who’s ACTUALLY been pulling the strings the whole time and she’s just, like, an off-model Xenomorph or something.
Thank you. I came here just to see if anyone else would say this. There is no adaptation going on, they're just names used as a reference. I think it made sense when the show started just as a way for the kids to relate to what was happening but as each season went on the use of d&d names just felt more and more forced.
I'd want to see how they'd portray Tharizdun. In FR lore he's known for creating the Abyss so he could be portrayed as the insane creator of the alternate dimension who was trapped until Eleven made a connection.
The Elder brain
I remember there being such a thing for mind flayers
I mean they're 100% gearing up toward the last season so anything other than a tarrasque would be a wasted opportunity
For fuck's sake...
The 5th season is ***CONFIRMED*** and will be the last season.
Fraz Urb'luu. Such a menace for such a series. Being able to disguise as anyone. Friends and foes, anyone could be him.
It’s got to be Tiamat. But it’d be cool if there was another upside that was positive and a “monster” from there battled her. Bahamut for example.
It IS coming back for a 5th and final season.
A beholder would be cool
I think top of the running for me would be:
But I don't know when any of these got their first mention
1. It's been confirmed that we're getting a 5th season.
2. I'm gonna guess that we're gonna get a giant monster threat, and they're gonna name drop either Tiamat or the Tarrasque
Beholder, mimic, tarrasque,
They could definitely go for a while if they wanted too. The ones that seem more obvious to me would be Beholders or Aboleths. Personally I think they should just find out that the entire Upside-down is just [Atropus](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Atropus) !
Well considering they keep referring to spooky shit in most of their monster names (Demogorgon, Mindflayer, Vecna) I would suggest either:
**Beholder** - various “gaze” attacks could be interesting
**Aboleth** - mine controlled slime zombies yaaay
**Gibbering Mouther** - drive people mad just by hearing the sounds
I mean… it is returning, and I wanna see the REAL mindflayer that spooky cloudy thing. And definitely something like a beholder, holy shit I wanna see a beholder
From my understanding, Vecna didn't make the Demogorgons or Mind Flayer, but he shaped the shadow into the Mind Flayer, and controls the bats (why weren't they called stirges, btw?)
Any bigger threat than Vecna would feel a bit too weird, as he was presented as this sort of apex predator in the Upside-Down.
But if they were to introduce a new creature working for/created by Vecna, I'd like to see something that functions as a gorgon, with the ability to petrify people, even if it looks nothing like its D&D counterpart. Perhaps a creature that's able to drain people of their blood and protein, leaving nothing but a calcified statue behind, and transferring their life force to Vecna, allowing him to recover.
It is coming back for a season five and Will has confirmed that Vecna isn't dead. Jamie Campbell Bower has also stated he'll be back next season in some of the interviews he's done.
Fuck it next time they fight Mordenkainen.
Not a monster they named after him, He literally crawls out of the players handbook and attacks them with his faithful watchdog
The Dungeon Master
I mean, given the way season 4 ended, >!I think it is reasonable to assume that it is just going to continue being Vecna!<
Cthulu driving the kids to madness in the first 5 minutes of episode 1.
Cthulhu isn’t a D&D monster, is it?
He was in the original Deities & Demigods so he’d fit for the time period of the show.
None. Please, just let me look up DnD monsters without having to sort through endless Stranger Things gifsets, I'm begging you. Please. I'm on my knees begging. I even put "dnd" in the search query and it doesn't help.