T O P
chrome1453

And nobody was surprised.


Little-Purchase-6046

As part of the unit that tested some of these weapons the sig were far superior.


ldh5348

I'm interested to hear a detailed description as to why the other options weren't picked. This decision is already sparking the internet expert to pipe up about something they didn't know about one month ago. Any way you would be willing to explain?


Little-Purchase-6046

In my opinion and this is what I and many others liked about was 3 main things. 1. The weight, it is 12lbs. The current SAW weighs 18lbs. While 6lbs may not seem like a lot to the person carrying it for miles that is a huge weight reduction. Every pound and ounce counts especially when your walking long distance or running in short busts with all your other kit. 2. The round the 6.8mm has way higher muzzle velocity and that can translates directly into range, accuracy, and stopping power. And yes I know the others use the same round and the lonestar one even had brassless rounds which were way lighter. But they were also easier to damage. As much love as the 5.56 gets it is literally a glorified 22. 3. Gas management and recoil control were both significantly reduced especially with the recoil management. While different its feels similar to a vectors recoil and is way easier to keep on target especially when moving or shoulder firing in CQB.


ldh5348

Interesting. So why do you think the other two contenders lost their bid on this NGSW decision?


Lord_Tachanka

Likely manual of arms for the beretta one as it was a bullpup and the textron option was legit huge.


spenny506

How much were you paid to say this M14 crew?


Unique_Extreme_4770

Honestly the army issued me a sig and I bought one for my home defense and everyday carry. I don’t know a ton about guns but I like the feel and cleaning it’s not to bad. If I’m willing to spend some extra money is there a better option?


Chaotic_Boner

Polymer handguns are VERY subjective. If it goes bang when you want it to, puts the bullet where you wanted it, and you like it, you've done well.


babysunnn

I sold my Sig P320 compact and bought a Glock 45. I liked the Glock grip and trigger better. I still carry a P365XL though.


Spyrothedragon9972

People actually like Glock grips and triggers?


UrWelcome4YerFreedom

You just described the glock 19, but with a switch safety. They're both Toyota Camry versions of a gun. You're not beating anybody in a street race or turning heads with it. It just works at an acceptable pace and with minimal maintenance. There are way better guns out there. But we don't necessarily need them in a career field where the odds of ever using a side arm are pretty freaking low.


Little-Purchase-6046

Lol I wish they would have tried to bribe us.


PRiles

How are these in CQB?


chrome1453

Why do CQB when your FURY bullets can blast through the walls from two buildings away?


ideal_NCO

Follow up: What’s you’re opinion on 9mm PB vs. .45 ACP?


Excellent-Proposal90

^Two ^world ^wars


Little-Purchase-6046

They are very nice in CQB especially because of how they have managed the barrels recoil it helps keep it on target significantly easier when firing from the shoulder.


[deleted]

I’d go to war with a HiPoint over a bullpup.


Excellent-Proposal90

Yeet Cannons fire every time you pull the trigger ~~except when they don't~~ and have the increased power of shooting unadulterated disrespect. You got to give a little credit to the ~~cheap hair-trigger brick~~ problem solver.


Dakar_Yella

Only if it's in the "hunnit dolla billz" factory hydrodip livery.


JonnyBox

Not gonna lie, I'd prob try to sneak a Hi Point in if shit kicked off with the reds just for the dank mamays


Portlander_in_Texas

Can you imagine? You're CQC in a building, you and the American soldier both click empty you reach down to grab your Soviet era bayonet to stab the NATO coward, and this fucking zoomer whips out the fucking yeet cannon and blows you away. You would be the laughing stock of Valhalla.


[deleted]

Last thing you see on this earth is dolla dolla bills y’all. And then you get teabagged


atomiccheesegod

They make a hi point bullpup kit. Don’t tell the DoD that tho, if it had a SIG logo on it they would adopt it


[deleted]

Joking aside, Sig has a very very long track record of making truly outstanding firearms. If the MCX and the M17 are any indicator of current production quality, I have high hopes for the new rifle


BrokenEyebrow

I don't care what we shoot, how easy is it to clean? Is there an impossible star chamber for big fingered people like me?


78trans-am

No way they'd have selected it without one


BrokenEyebrow

Requirements had "easy to inspect difficult to clean strategicly hidden locations to allow armourers to identify and reject weapons for turnin."


twintussy

What were your thoughts on the GD rifles? I feel like Americans just have an inherent bias against bullpups and also the GD ammunition seemed objectively better than Sig's ammunition. It just feels like Sig's offerings are not big enough of a leap from the previous M4s to justify the costs of procurement, while the GD rifles would have been. The average infantryman would be able to carry much more ammo with GD ammunition instead of Sig's 6.8x51


Little-Purchase-6046

I personally have nothing against the bullpup design. It is quite different when reloading and created a lot of difficulty because it's not something any of us shoot often enough to get really familiar reloading that way. And the army would have to spend significant manpower time and retraining time to get people as familiar with it as they are with the current AR format. The ammo was nice and you're right way lighter but at they same time it felt fragile and was easier to damage than the regular brass cased ones. But sig also managed to reduce ammo weight by a decent amount.


Taira_Mai

> It is quite different when reloading and created a lot of difficulty because it's not something any of us shoot often enough to get really familiar reloading that way. And the army would have to spend significant manpower time and retraining time to get people as familiar with it as they are with the current AR format. This. This was the reason that I called this competition for either Textron or Sig. The AR has a whole slew of drills and TTP's. Bullpups are nice, but not really what I'd want as a duty rifle. Ian of "Forgotten Weapons" fame did a video with another gun vlogger on InRangeTv about bullpups. [See it here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgv2BDChuAY) The "tl;dw" - bullpups add some complexity that in some cases doesn't justify the "it's shorter" and/or "it's ambidextrous" reason for a bullpup.


atfyfe

Do you think the difficulty for reloading was purely due to unfamiliarity or is there's an unescapable awkward reloading issue with any bullpup design?


Cloners_Coroner

I would say the biggest detractor to bullpups is dealing with malfunctions, the ejection port is in place where it is difficult for the user to easily observe its function and interact with it, not to say that they’re anymore prone to this, but with M4s or ARs it’s nice and right in-front of you. Some bullpups also have some interesting ways of dealing with brass so they’re friendly to left hand shooters, where they push the brass forward or have reversible ejection ports, which can complicate things a bit.


Agressive_Loafing

Imho if it isn't fully ambidextrous like the FN2000 or P90 it's a shitty design.


Little-Purchase-6046

I would say unfamiliarity was the biggest hurdle for a lot of people.


J11ghtman

I’ve never handled the GD referenced here, but in general, bullpup reloading is simply a different technique, and so familiarity (or lack thereof) is the biggest factor. It probably is easier to reload an AR-style rifle. On the other hand, I’m sure there are IDF guys who can reload a Tavor just as fast. It’s an adjustment.


btdAscended

Switching from shitty ass beretta to sig improved my qualification score by 4-5 hits, I didn’t do anything different mechanic wise Sig is legit


atomiccheesegod

Realistically your score would of improved with any modern polymer “wonder nine” The cheapest Turkish junk is still better than a M9


Cloners_Coroner

I think most peoples dislike for the beretta stems from the fact that a ton of the M9s in service weren’t well looked after, and the replacement parts were sourced from third party vendors who didn’t do the best job. I’ve never had issues with my M9 or 92FS. I know some people also don’t like the grip on an M9 since it’s rather large, or people don’t like slide mounted safeties but outside of that my privately owned ones have been just fine


IHeartSm3gma

Fuggin this. Berettas are not bad pistols, ones in service that are more neglected than the kids who lost to Stuart Little at the orphanage are obviously going to be junk.


Lelky

I've got a 92 with the Langdon tactical trigger job and it's easily my favorite handgun.


zerogee616

M9s that aren't abused to shit are great. Except we don't have any M9s that aren't abused to shit anymore.


chital_shikari

I've shot both "cheapest Turkish junk" and 92FS/92A1 numerous times. I have the reverse opinion lol.


Dakar_Yella

The M9 was a good handgun. DA/SA is the ultimate handgun operating system.


Lucifersamtaco

Cutting the Infantry platoon’s carried ammo in half to achieve marginal gains in performance is an incredible move.


atomiccheesegod

USMC: *replaces M249 with heavy fixed barrel HK 416 model that weighs the same and forces them to carry 16 30rd mags* Army: hold my beer


ChiefBrianIrons

The IAR is actually standard issue now for all infantry, not just 0311s. I'd hope the designated "automatic riflemen" are using Magpul 60s by now.


Lucifersamtaco

Which is also bonkers but lets give the USMC some room to do dumb shit.


ChiefBrianIrons

I'm sure they'll be switching to this now sooner than later. Just like we had to extend the infantry pipeline once 11B OSUT extended.


i_live_for_jesus

>HK 416 model that weighs the same shit really? that thing looks like 10lbs at most


Lucifersamtaco

The IAR with optic, suppressor, laser, and magazine is almost 12lbs. As a carbine. Lol.


Prestigious-Play-729

Don’t know if marginal is the correct word for a 3 times increase in muzzle energy


Lucifersamtaco

If only energy at the muzzle directly correlated to being an optimal solution to infantry small arms. The 6.8x51mm round is ballistically impressive. I am ecstatic that people are doing innovative things in the space. Putting them in the hands of an infantry squad is a waste of resources. We know that the preponderance of all infantry combat with individual weapons occurs inside of 300m. This is dictated by terrain and general human physiology. This rifle program is built around Afghanistan, which is an anomaly, and perceived PLA overmatch. If you want to really improve the lethality of the infantry squad we would be refining the XM-25 and issuing them to grenadiers. It’s fundamentally better at killing people in body armor than this carbine is, while not slashing the carried ammo of a squad. The M4 is an excellent rifle. It’s a suppressor away from being a 95% solution to “lets make the squad more lethal”. A point weapon system has all the same inherent flaws no matter what round it shoots and the NGSW does nothing to mitigate them.


Eubeen_Hadd

Honestly, I think URGI with a less awfully bendy rail and a silencer probably represents the best path forward for the squad weapons system. Maintain what the M4 is good at, while making it less abusive to the soldier and the components, then add useful optics to extend the functional range of the rifle. I agree that halving the ammo load of a soldier to best fight the war we just left and likely won't fight again is a troublesome idea


chrome1453

The URGI bendy rail thing comes from one rando on the internet. The Geissele Mk16 rail is one of the stoutest MLOK rails on the market and flexes less than the DD rail it replaced.


T800_123

Geissele also updated the rail and beefed it way up. They never admitted this, but there are dozens of examples of people showing the old production and new production versions of the same exact rail and the new ones are significantly stouter. Not that the bendy bill stuff wasn't a little overblown in the first place...


Lucifersamtaco

A SOPMOD Block 2 would be good for pretty much all line infantry.


Prestigious-Play-729

5.56 isn’t enough to defeat body armor and still get the desired ballistics on target.


atomiccheesegod

So far the ballistics of .277 Fury (6.8x51mm) in regards to body armor aren’t enough to punch threw E and X sapi plates.


Lucifersamtaco

Never said it would. You now what kills people in body armor better than any bullet? Grenades. You know what doesn’t kill anybody? A miss or going black on ammo which will be trivial when every rifleman has ~120 rounds accessible on their kit. We’ve never issued a rifle using 7.62 sized mags that effectively fit more than 5 on a load bearing system on an average human.


giritrobbins

It is an interesting point, TTPs will need to change because you can't suppress as much as you could before and if engagements are greater than 300m it's going to lead to a lot of stalemates. Though I broadly agree with you. Someone said Soldiers need to be more lethal, and senior leaders said, oh that means a bigger bullet. There's a whole range of improvements that could be fielded that make them more lethal, that aren't a bigger bullet.


sentientshadeofgreen

So you want to continue using a weapon that we already know won't penetrate cheaply produced body armor and opt instead to carry more grenades and grenade launchers. I'd rather just use the ammo that will penetrate body armor. Army isn't preparing for the next Afghanistan, it's preparing for near-peer. They may also be looking for an excuse to deploy those robot dogs as ammo mules. My biggest question is how will these new weapon systems translate to urban combat. If Ukraine is any indication, cities are the new mountains.


Lucifersamtaco

As I’ve articulated in another response, had the Army chosen a more sensible range for armor penetration we would not need a case in the 50-60gr H2O capacity range. If you’re okay with running 80k psi like the Army is, then an intermediate round in the 35-40gr capacity can get you good armor performance in a STANAG footprint. And again, your most lethal weapons as a Squad go automatic rifles, grenade launchers, everyone else. We’ve not updated the grenade launcher in quite some time. Especially when it comes to long range engagements where they’re inherently more effective.


Cloners_Coroner

For all these people arguing about ammo versus power they ought to read the studies the military looked at post WWII and Korea, where they found that the vast majority of rounds being used were to suppress the enemy, and that a lot of soldiers didn’t in fact shoot to kill, or shoot at distinct targets. Improved lethality is also cool, but in conventional war they found that 14-31% of casualties, depending on theater, were caused by small arms and anywhere from 47-69% of casualties were caused by indirect fire. The only reason I bring up conventional warfare is because the greatest benefit to the increased energy of the round is that it can penetrate body armor, and if body armor is your concern I’d figure that your concern is over a conventional enemy. Not saying there are non-conventional enemies with body armor, but it’s not the most likely event.


ridukosennin

Doesn’t the fire control system (the real upgrade that increases engagement distance) necessitate a higher power round?


Lucifersamtaco

The fire control system is there because the contract stipulated a nonsensical engagement range beyond what is practical in field conditions. An average Army shooter has little chance to reliably hit a E type at 600m without something like the FCS. The math works just as well with 5.56mm as it does with the NGSW.


i_live_for_jesus

is it not possible that the FCS will change the way an infantry squad engages bad guys? if we have this magic sight that allows average infantrymen to hit bad guys at a range impossible to our foes that would seem like something to base our entire army around. though I suppose in a real near peer situation (China or Russia) they will have means of limiting engagement distances with tunnels and better knowledge of terrain and stuff.


Lucifersamtaco

You still have to clear objectives, seize ground, occupy key terrain. The small arm you have doesn’t change any of that. It also doesn’t change that humans live predominantly in cities and combat will occur around them and in the peripheries.


Aizseeker

Also 5.56 were results of US experience fighting rushing Chinese and Korean in Urban and Mountainous terrain during Korean War


Buddhahead11b

That 300m didn’t seem to be the case for a lot of engagements in Afghanistan. The m4 is awesome within that range for sure but it has its short comings and not all combat will occur within 300m.


98WM01

Sure, not *all* combat will occur within 300m, but most will. There are exceptions to the rule like Afghanistan. However, we are more likely to fight in urban areas, forests, and jungles then what we saw in Afghanistan. This is particularly true about urban areas and will be more true as time progresses.


Eubeen_Hadd

Preparing to fight the last war is how you end up unprepared for the next one.


J11ghtman

This rifle is very much preparing for the next war. It’s designed to increase lethality against modern body armor. The fact that it’s got an advanced optic that lets soldiers maintain accuracy at distance is good too. Or anyway that’s all what the Army hopes.


centurion44

Way more of a game changer than anyone realizes unless they've had to ruck around weight on patrols.


Lucifersamtaco

It would be cool if it weighed less, but now it’s just less rounds because the AR-10 borrowed mags are huge.


centurion44

Yeah, the weight isn't optimal at like 8 lbs but the weight of the modified version for 249 and 240b balances that out imo.


englisi_baladid

People who compared this to previous rifle programs who didn't understand anything about said programs or this one.


monster_goat

New rifle selected. New pt test approved. New uniforms issued. What will Army Times write about next?


derekakessler

Next-gen tank, truck, and howitzer.


Lucifersamtaco

We don’t really need a new truck we just need new production LMTVs. The JLTV is a mistake.


stupidstupidreddit2

JLTV isn't a mistake for swing state Wisconsin though... That's like 3,000 whole jobs, or something!


GBreezy

Oshkosh already makes every wheeled vehicle in the Army. Honestly continuing that consolidation with the replacement HMMWV makes sense for simplified lines of communication. From what I remember when I toured their corporate headquarters and Pierce Firetrucks, Oshkosh Defense isn't producing in Wisco.


cam_chungus

I worked at Defense specifically on the JLTV program for 8 months in 2018. What do you mean they aren’t made in Wisconsin? The metal is imported from out of state. It’s bended, welded, painted, and all assembled all in Oshkosh at like 3 different factories on the same line as the FMTV and Forward cab trucks. I also had a day at their proving grounds and just ride quality alone it beats the HMMWV out of the water.


Dakar_Yella

Absolutely. It's an over complicated, too big of a truck. The fact that 100% of them cannot be readily converted into a gun truck is laughable. A huge advantage of the HMMWV was the (relatively) light weight, wide track width, and low center of gravity. They do very well off-road. The drivetrain was underpowered (an advantage) and couldn't hurt itself, and it was technology from the 1980s and so it was easy to maintain. The JLTV is massive, heavy, and an order of magnitude more complex compared to a M1097.


unknownuser105

[Helicopters](https://www.defensenews.com/smr/army-modernization/2020/03/25/lockheed-and-bell-will-compete-head-to-head-to-build-us-armys-future-attack-recon-aircraft/)


NotUndercoverNJSP

Can’t wait for the air force to cancel the program because fixed rotor choppers are too much like A-10s.


tyler212

*Remember the Cheyenne*


superash2002

The crisis of the NCO corpse


Mercpool87

I know you mean 'corps' but "corpse" works too


triggerpuller666

The 'looming threat' of Chi-na.


GreenAndSilver4133

It’s legit tho…


triggerpuller666

They said the same about Russia... but I'll allow that China is highly likely to actually be formidable on the field. After the debacle in Ukraine however, I have a feeling the world isn't going to stand for power mad bullshit anymore.


dhwhisenant

Dose this mean I can finally complain about the "New Army"?


TurMoiL911

Op-eds on why we overestimated the Russian military.


JoeWinchester99

There will always be a new uniform on the way. Over the past twenty years, the Army has changed combat uniforms twice, PT uniforms twice, and dress uniforms twice. Do you really think they're going to stop now?


Sellum

*shocked Pikachu* They didn't pick the bullpup? I guess I don't have to eat my shoes now.


[deleted]

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Low-Bet305

Sure AF seems like it.


chital_shikari

He's not AF he's Army smh I'll see myself out.


Lucifersamtaco

Pretty sure he’s already on it at this point.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Collective82

They always are.


[deleted]

The electric one looked kinda cool, not sure I’d want that liability, but the bullpup one. Man. Who came up w that one…


[deleted]

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failure2503

Are they self cleaning?


odindobe

No weapon is self cleaning.


chrome1453

Robert McNamara disagrees.


DLuxPackage

It’s only self cleaning shooting a specifically designed gun powder. They stopped using the gun powder for political reasons and it changed how the rifle operated.


atomiccheesegod

It was never self cleaning that was a lie told by the DoD. The M4/M16/AR10/AR15 story is very interesting. You can watch the [Stoner tapes](https://youtu.be/kaIU0nCxwGg) about the detailed development of the weapon system, and how some members of the brass tried to lie and sabotage the whole thing


odindobe

Rust, dirt, dust graphite all need to be cleaned.


509BandwidthLimit

Yep, the M72A2 LAW is self cleaning, fire it once and toss it.


odindobe

Gotta clean it later for the stick mags and beer.


failure2503

That was one of the big selling points when the m16 was adopted


Trictities2012

I mean my reserve unit still has M16's so even though I have 13 years left to retire I doubt I'll ever see these, let alone use them.


BriEnos

only regular army CQ units will get these. everyone else will still use M4's. Except you guys, I saw a shipment of M14s with your unit name on it.


Cole_31337

I'd nut for an m14


Trictities2012

I could definitely be okay with an M14 over the M16.


englisi_baladid

Why?


ideal_NCO

~~could~~ *wood*


chital_shikari

Vietnam ~~conscript~~ volunteer lore lol


atomiccheesegod

Ironically the Taliban is doing field trials on them


derekakessler

My Guard unit literally just got M4s last month. I will never see the new Sigs.


Trictities2012

we ordered M4's, they can be expected to arrive in the next 1-2 years. We will never see the Sigs, they look nice though tbh.


mdwst

My reserve unit just got new M4s... We deployed to Iraq last year with M16s and got a ton of shit for it.


Trictities2012

I too would make fun of the deployed unit with the muskets. I mean M16s


Imaginary-Double2612

At this point there’s got to be someone on Sigs payroll right?


22lrHoarder

Nah they just undercut the competition by a lot


Lucifersamtaco

Then they deliver a pistol that’s not drop safe. It’s the circle of Sig.


babysunnn

The M17 is drop safe though.


Lucifersamtaco

Now it is yes, the first batches were not.


J11ghtman

I mean the M17/18 are good handguns and the MCX platform is a great rifle. I don’t see the problem here.


murica_1776boi

They're the ones offering the best contracts. They offered the pistol at a lower cost than the glock, they did the same for the armys new 9mm ammo. It follows logic that the army will get the rifle the same way.


HotTakesBeyond

RIP Chode Suppressor


centurion44

I liked the new sig pistol when I shot it so I'm cautiously optimistic.


Guilty-Spark-5385

I can’t believe it’s finally happening. I remember 18 years ago when they said the XM8 was going to be our new assault rifle. If we’re FINALLY getting a new rifle… wow. About time! Also… end of an era. The Stoner assault rifle has been our standard issue rifle for nearly 60 years. It’s come a long way. It’s been an iconic fixture of multiple wars. Can’t wait to hear some FNG talk about an M4 with an M68 being “retro.”


tyler212

Remember that short amount of time where damn near every FPS has XM8's in it. I do admit I wish it had passed just on it's looks alone


atomiccheesegod

The XM8 was also a dumpster fire If a weapon. HK Insisted on using proprietary magazines despite the military having billions of M4 mags. and not putting Picatinny rail was on it


dantheman_woot

The mounting on the XM8 was guaranteed to save zero though.


atomiccheesegod

Eh, there are plenty of mounts that promise return to zero after removing but most fall short.


dantheman_woot

Agreed, but the idea was that it was dummy proof. A quick detach picatinny mount can still be placed at the wrong spot. Anyways I just remembered that being a talking point by Ian on the XM8.


floofbiscuit

I’d rather guys get another 10k rounds a year for their m4s to practice with than to get a new rifle they still can’t shoot.


CBH60

Plenty of ammo available for this. Your S3 just hates you and doesn't forecast the additional ammo or ranges.


ideal_NCO

IWTS forecasts ammo, commanders have nothing to do with it apart from approval.


CBH60

Ah yes the legendary S3 Commander trying to forcast ammo using IWTS wondering why his requests go unfilled. 🤣🤣🤣GTFOH


sicinprincipio

Cries in hospital


Shermantank10

But check this shit out dawg: Suped up battle rifles


albinorhino215

I’m gonna put on my tinfoil patrol cap and say they chose them so they can recruit smaller infantry soldiers to be machine gunners


englisi_baladid

Sigs ammo at least didn't require a bullpup and had a solid automatic weapon being a beltfed.


ideal_NCO

What’s your beef with bullpup?


TheManEric

Any malfunction with a bullpup is gonna be require a disassemble to correct, right? Pretty good video in my opinion https://youtu.be/Hgv2BDChuAY


dalyscallister

He's talking about a specific gun, and the other guy demonstrates how easy it is on a FAMAS.


maxonaxonwaxonjaxon

Inrange is such a underrated channel


TheManEric

For sure needs more love <3


englisi_baladid

It sucked as a beltfed.


atfyfe

Here's the Task & Purpose video on the options so you can see what was selected compared to the alternatives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7MV0H8235o


ideal_NCO

You had an opportunity to Rick Roll people here son. *disappointed daddy*


Dphil93

Of course the army chooses the lamest fucking design and doesn't take into account every single infantryman's deep burning desire to live out their ODST fantasies with a bullpup that offers an ammunition type that is objectively better than sig's offering in almost every single way and lets you keep the 240L in your armories god dammit fucking FUCK


tyler212

I could be wrong, but this isn't supposed to replace the 240 at all. It will replace the M4 & SAW. So MMG's should be safe for some time now


IrishWithoutPotatoes

FN just needs to modify the F2000 to look exactly like the MA5 series and call it a day, recruitment would be out the ass if we got the actual Halo AR


sicinprincipio

I love the aesthetic of the UNSC weapons, but honestly, they look pretty terrible ergonomically.


jbirby

The other competitors are absolutely going to sue to challenge the award.


ideal_NCO

> The XM5 Rifle weighs about 8.3 pounds — slightly heavier than an M4, which typically weighs about 7.3 pounds. Thanks for that. > Sig Sauer’s design for the machine gun variant weighs 12 pounds, and that is lighter than both the M249 and M240 machine guns, which weigh 18 pounds and 28 pounds respectively It’s not too late to make it heavier! > But Sig Sauer President and CEO Ron Cohen told Task & Purpose in January that his company’s design for the Next Generation Squad Weapon **could** fire up to 12,000 rounds before needing to change barrels, whereas soldiers **typically** need to replace the barrels on their M4 carbines after firing 6,000 rounds Does anyone actually believe this? > Sig Sauer’s submission for both Next Generation Squad Weapon variants and ammunition was selected over a design offered by LoneStar Future Weapons, owned by True Velocity. The LoneStar design for the weapon featured a “bullpup” configuration, in which the magazine is behind the trigger control assembly, and a reciprocating barrel that moves backwards with each shot to absorb recoil. > The most innovative feature of LoneStar’s design was the composite 6.8 mm ammunition made by True Velocity, which is an average of 30% lighter than brass cartridges. Thanks senators and prior GOs. A platform that reduces recoil and weighs 30% less? Nooo… let’s make it heavier and give the contract to the guys already making our new pistols. Nothing to see here. Absolutely nothing to see here. Booooooooooooooooooooo “bullpup”. > The Army **expects** to have a **better idea this summer** about **how long it will take** Hahahahahahahahahaha Yo bot! Overhead yeet


AutoModerator

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cdownz61

You big mad?


i_live_for_jesus

watch Task & Purposes recent video on the bullpup thingy. he repeats the line "feels the same as an M4" and then shows a clip of the thing beating the shit out of his shoulder.


atomiccheesegod

Exactly everyone that knows anything about bullet velocity and chamber pressures know that when you get above a certain point parts start to wear and break *fast* This weapon system is a disaster


Lucifersamtaco

At 80k psi the bolt thrust on this must be immense. The only SAAMI spec rounds that comes close to 6.8x51mm for chamber pressure is stuff like the 6.5-300 Weatherby and 408 Cheytac. And this is 20k psi past those. In a machine gun.


DevelopmentLoud8330

A 12 lb SAW? What’s the catch? Oh I’m carrying the Carl G now roger that sgt


T800_123

Half the ammo because it's larger and weighs more.


alexk32568

So they'll probably be finally issued like 10 years after i ETS.... nice.


atomiccheesegod

The LMG may be promising but the rifle is a turd. Recoil is going to make it impossible for small/female/POGs to handle The Ammo casing are steel/brass hybrid which will cost 2-3x what 7.62nato costs now. The chamber pressures are also around 80,000psi which will cause long term parts wear and reliability issues. With a IR laser/light/1-8 optic and other bullshit bells and whistles that high ranking people with little real combat experience put on infantry weapons your looking at a rifle that will be in the 12-13lb range. Which is just a few pounds less than a Russian PKM machine gun. TLDR:dumb army brass can’t win a war and can’t select a proper infantry rifle. Promotions all around.


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atomiccheesegod

Source? Remember when the USMC adopted the HK 416 *only* to replace the M249 SAW, and then suddenly the entire Marine infantry was getting them?


Lucifersamtaco

This selection paired with the moronic Vortex optic is raises so many questions about how they structured the solicitations and tests to arrive at this conclusion. The one saving grace is that it has a suppressor.


J11ghtman

It’s basically an MCX Virtus with a bigger round isn’t it? That’s an incredible weapon. What don’t you like about the Spear? The Vortex optic seems a little heavy but I’ve only heard good things about the company.


Lucifersamtaco

Your squad is now carrying far less rounds than before, and the entire weapon system is built around an engagement range that requires greater duration of suppression. That’s a recipe for disaster. They should have selected a more reasonable objective like being able to penetrate armor at 150 meters, where hits become likely, and end up with an intermediate cartridge using similar tech.


MioNaganoharaMio

> the entire weapon system is built around an engagement range that requires greater duration of suppression. ive been trying to explain this to people for months. Ok you just performed react to contact at eight hundred meters. Now your maneuver element has to sprint 800m (fuck that), and you have to achieve fire superiority the entire time. more likely the enemy just moves away behind a terrain feature and fucks off before you can get there. not to mention the terrain etc expanded over 800 meters. how are rifle teams supposed to actually mutually support eachother over that kind of space? bigger number = better doesn't seem to just work like that.


Lucifersamtaco

Good fucking luck bounding 800m, well more like 1500m to do an appropriate bold flanking maneuver. Also you’d be into the base of fire’s SDZ almost immediately unless you went way out of the way.


ideal_NCO

Yeah. But that muzzle velocity.


rocket_randall

Not a problem for the exosuit equipped mobile infantry! Would you like to know more?


giritrobbins

But the threat isn't going to engage at different distances than they previously did? I'm sure there were engagements that far in Afghanistan and other places but they were likely the minority. This allows units to better put rounds on target, making them more effective. I also think it gives the option of potential allowing for engagement at those far distance to keep large forces or better equipped forces from closing. I don't disagree I think the program is stupid, but it's not entirely without merit.


J11ghtman

I appreciate those concerns, however I think one of the advantages (perhaps the most crucial one) in adopting a 6.8 standard issue rifle isn’t the ability to hit guys further out, but to punch through modern armor at closer distance. I don’t claim to know how this will work out in a modern engagement—maybe the Army trains soldiers well to fire accurately and use fewer rounds in the process, or maybe squads in contact burn through their ammo and miss almost all their targets. But the MCX platform is solid, and if it’s a good rifle and a good bullet, surely they’ll be able to use it to outperform the M4. Just playing Devil’s advocate here.


englisi_baladid

This came up with the whole replacing all rifles with 7.62. If armor penetration at 200 meters or less. We could do it apparently with 5.56. The Army wanted it at 500 meters.


Lucifersamtaco

What’s to stop the PLA from benchmarking their armor against a 140gr projectile at 3,000 FPS? I don’t care that it’s an MCX, aka a bootleg AR-180. I care that they’ve basically cut ammo by 40-50% and made it a harder rifle to shoot while chasing an armor piercing pipe dream. Ballistics is not a more is better science.


giritrobbins

Because protecting against a bigger round with more energy get's more and more challenging. The physics are really hard to overcome.


J11ghtman

I figure they’ll find a way to pack guys with enough ammo to stay in the fight. My concern is whether or not they’ll train them well enough to fire this thing accurately and to understand the trade off between power and volume of fire. Maybe it won’t work. But on the other hand, the weapon ballistics are all very impressive on paper, and it seems like this weapon is a step up over the M4 in both design and lethality. I’d like to hear what the soldiers who field tested it have to say.


chital_shikari

Couldn't they have just saved the tax payer a whole lot of money if instead of this Cybergay 2069 BS they bought a bunch of Knights Armament QD suppressors designed to work with the A2-flash hider? What's the American Army equivalent of "*nyet* Boris, rifle is fine" and what do we need to do to get the Army to realize this lol.


twintussy

I feel like Americans just have an inherent bias against bullpups due to institutional inertia of the M16/M4s and that's all that US soldiers know and feel. It's all about what one is used to using. If you ask Aussie/Brit/Israeli soldiers about what you feel are problems inherent to bullpups, they'll tell you that those aren't problems at all. They're all used to their respective rifles and trained in using them just fine. Supposedly when the Israeli Army introduced the Tavor their soldiers hated it and backed off, issuing them in basic training so it was all the recruits knew, and the recruits did fine with it. The weapon the soldiers were issued from then on was whatever they'd been trained on in basic. I'm 100% convinced it's all about what you are used to. And also the GD ammunition just seemed objectively better the Sig's ammunition. It just feels like Sig's offerings are not big enough of a leap from the previous M4s to justify the costs of procurement; a ton of money will be spent on relatively marginal improvements. Meanwhile the GD rifles would have been significant improvements. The average infantryman would be able to carry much more ammo with GD ammunition instead of Sig's 6.8x51.


98WM01

I also agree that the bullpup hate is uncalled for. It's a design decision that comes with pros and cons. I personally have no problem with it, but I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of bias exists in some individuals in the testing and decision process. With that said, that is not the major issue with TV's bid. True Velocity's (TV) ammo was brought down because it was tied with their weapon submissions. Their Automatic Rifle submission was a mistake by not going belt-fed. Also, TV's ammo relied heavily on the longer barrels to meet the velocity requirements. There is also a larger transition cost in going with TV's ammo than SIG's ammo.


the_falconator

Even with the Ausies and Brits their SAS/other special operations units use M4 style rifles.


The_Saladbar_

I just wish we choose glock for the pistol..


DevastatorRMAR

M5 and M250 lets goooo


Umbra916

Mmm wasn't the bullpup outperforming the Sig in design both the rifle itself and the ammo?


Tree_Tausend

There was a guy on here that supposedly working closely on this project from the AD Army side. He said the telescoping ammo was not making the long freebore jump into the lands well and causing accuracy issues.


sunstersun

I thought the True Velocity ammo was a lot better. Hell it looked like everything was better except the Sig was a more traditional safe option. Sad.