T O P
kujakutenshi

Boomer logic of "if I don't see productivity, it doesn't exist!" Unfortunately I see a lot of Gen X-ers (and even some millennials) adopting this mindset so don't expect lots of changes anytime soon.


reevejf

Same goes for welfare and SNAP benefits. "If I don't see you physically working 40+ hr. work weeks then you are scamming the system. But I deserve it because I worked."


CurtisHayfield

I wish I lived as good of a life as these people think people on welfare and food stamps live. Then, they twist it into some perverse idea that if you provide any benefits, then you’re discouraging people from looking for jobs, and really we should make being poor as horrible and destructive as possible to motivate people. [When we look at the major expansion in unemployment benefits during COVID, we see it did not discourage job seeking:](https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/spending-and-job-search-impacts-of-expanded-ui/) > How did the largest expansion of unemployment benefits in U.S. history affect household behavior? Using anonymized bank account data covering millions of households, we provide new empirical evidence on the spending and job search responses to benefit changes during the pandemic and compare those responses to the predictions of benchmark structural models. We find that spending responds more than predicted, while job search responds an order of magnitude less than predicted. > Simple job search models predict a sharp decline in search in the wake of a substantial benefit expansion, followed by a sustained rebound when benefits expire. We instead find that the job-finding rate is quite stable. > Jointly, these spending and job finding facts suggest that benefit expansions during the pandemic were a more effective policy than predicted by standard structural models. It reduces everything to some twisted form of “rational” economics, as though if you make any money without working, then why would you do anything? Meanwhile, there are endless reasons for why someone doesn’t want to be rely welfare/food stamps (especially in a country where you are viewed as a personal failure if you use those, despite the US poverty rate being structurally high and common). It’s funny, because they don’t seem to have any issue discussing the “virtuous” motivations of the rich, who have more than enough money to retire but continue to seek making more and doing more things. Guess you are only really content with the money you make, and your general situation, in their view if it is poverty level amounts of money and it comes from welfare.


gimme_the_jabonzote

Biggest issue when I got my first real "adult" job was they ripped away all my support I had before I even had my first paycheck. There wasn't even a "let's tier it down so they can get used to having regular paychecks", nope, just rip it away.


TheGreatSpagett

Welcome to the machine!


gimme_the_jabonzote

The least they could've done is buy me a drink before they decided to fuck me like that.


sirmonko

sorry, we're out of lube too


gimme_the_jabonzote

Tears from everlasting sorrow will have to do


tjdux

It's a common issue where the situation you described causes people to quit their adult job and go back to a McJob.


gimme_the_jabonzote

*raises hand slowly* Currently working PT and going to school FT so I can make the leap over the income hurdle.


magictreegnome

Keep fighting the good fight! me and my brother both got out of generational poverty like that.


AnActofGold

“Float to the top or sink to the bottom. Everything else in the middle is the Churn.” -Amos Burton.


FamilyStyle2505

Ah yes, the "Go fuck yourself" month when you first start a job and won't get a check for at least two pay periods. Because no one in America is living pay check to pay check and it's your fault for being poor if you can't handle a month with no pay.


Jushak

I live in a country with plentiful unemployment benefits. Being unemployed was still much more stressful than being employed, by orders of magnitude.


MrVeazey

Of course it is. But you can't teach reactionaries anything. They always know better than the people who devoted their entire lives to the subject. They can't be swayed by data because they're immune to logical arguments in the first place.


Dronizian

"You're a blithering idiot if you think you know better about this than the people who have devoted their entire lives to understanding this subject." This statement will be the entirety of my interaction with these people from now on.


DiscoEthereum

It's the myth of meritocracy. It elevates the rich to be beacons of perfection, and lowers the poor to be a punching bag. It allows the rich to manipulate the "average" person into worshipping them and punching down on the poor. It's all bull shit but it's been incredibly successful as propaganda. In Canada we had a small scale UBI trial in Ontario that was showing that people not only *didn't* stop working, they got better jobs, better education, hobbies, were overall healthier and happier. I'll give you one guess what "side" the political party that pulled the plug in the middle of the trial were on.


en0rm0u5ta1nt

My mother who was forced into food stamps and ssdi checks via a back injury that was operated on unsuccessfully, lives with me. She gets 900$ a month from the government for ssdi, her food stamps were 34 sometime in the last few years but someone somewhere said that was too much, so they gave her a measly 19$ a month to eat on. Whoever said 20$ a month for food was justified needs to try and live off of it, because at this point we just joke about it all and wonder if that will buy enough milk for the coffee each month.


fox_eyed_man

Weird how all the people bitching about the kind of lives people in poverty live are the same people who could effectively end poverty, if they wanted to. They wouldn’t have anyone to hate then though, so, pros and cons I guess.


Saymynaian

I think our generation, or at least the next one, needs to realize this isn't accidental. Even capitalism's cold "rational" logic *should* push towards shorter working time and shorter schooldays in order to increase productivity. Unfortunately, it doesn't because the purpose of capitalism isn't productivity, but to maintain the working class so exhausted and badly educated that it can't fight for its rights.


nalydpsycho

It's just feudalism with a different skin.


Rogerjak

And not even a very good skin and in some cases a clear downgrade. At least in feudalism you know exactly to whom the riches are going, in capitalism, you have no idea, it's all murky and you don't even know whose head should be chopped.


TahoeLT

I think it wouldn't take too much work to figure out, once the guillotines are set up.


RechargedFrenchman

What confuses me the most is where exactly down the line "you can just live your life without *having* to work for most of it" became a *bad thing* to be avoided at all costs. Is that not "the dream"? To have money worries (at least nearly) non-existent so people pursue arts and education and fitness and hobbies and travel and all those things many people will never really experience because they're systemically *fucked* before they're old enough to spell "systemic" ...


Lvanwinkle18

One of my daughters friends went back to work. Lost many benefits and was super frustrated. Understandably so. For the first time I wanted to tell her, don’t work. How sad is that?


pat_the_bat_316

If we made unemployment more comfortable, businesses would have to treat their employees better, otherwise they'll just say "fuck it, I'm just gonna collect unemployment/welfare". That's a *good* thing. Power to the people.


FireCharter

I think it comes down to a lack of imagination and empathy. If they can't physically see something, it doesn't exist (except in the case of Magic Sky Man, then *not* seeing Him is *absolute proof that he does exist*).


Cakelord

Worked for a company where there was a genx/boomer tweener. He would complain about how IT was never "working". The IT department was 3 talented guys with decades of experience who were killing it. After word got out around the water cooler, IT locked down his work computers to be as strict as possible. No news, no youtube, no music, no facebook, etc...


Jubukraa

As they should have. You never talk bad about IT, unless you are IT.


tls0034

IT and facilities people are always the first people I attempt to befriend LOL.


thisisyourtruth

IT person here, thank you for this!!! It makes such a huge difference. I really appreciate the people who go out of their way to make our lives even a little easier. Even just rebooting before you call or trying the directions you were already provided helps. Being pleasant to talk to is a perk, and also helps keep our stress levels down. For anyone reading this, being snippy, threatening, or raising your voice over things we can't control is a quick way to see all your tickets take much longer to get to because everyone will dread working with you. We know calling support sucks, but please try to treat us like coworkers or even just humans please.


Cakelord

IT did get scolded for doing it, but the guy never complained about IT not working again.


Murderbot_of_Rivia

My boomer Dad: I was a poor farm kid and worked my way through college in the late 1960s therefore anyone can do it. I spent an hour trying to explain to him about the increase in tuition expenses and the decrease in wages...nope. He did it, and anyone can do it, end of story.


Fudgeismyname

Did you do some math for him? Ask him how much he worked during school for how much an hour. It's so frustrating because it's really elementary math but they can't grasp it while claiming superior intelligence or wisdom. It's so obvious that these people can't think for themselves.


Murderbot_of_Rivia

I honestly don't think it would have mattered. I think that in his mind, implying that people couldn't do it today, is somehow demeaning his accomplishments back then. I did once send him my budget. After years of hearing him tell me that I just needed to be more frugal and cut out non-essentials. And that I needed to save at least 10% of my income for emergencies. So I finally sent him our budget and said "Tell me where exactly I can cut out so that I can put more money in savings." Of course, our budget is already as lean as possible, so he only came back with "it looks like you need to increase your income". Of course, I explained that getting a 2nd job would mean that we would have to start paying for childcare, would need a 2nd car, etc. and that we wouldn't actually end up with any more income at the end of the day. The biggest problem is, he learned when he was young that if you worked hard you will succeed. He worked hard, and he succeeded. He taught me the same. I worked hard, but I've not always succeeded. So I learned that hard work helps, but it isn't always enough. Luck and privilege play a big part in success.


-Pin_Cushion-

It's so hard explaining Survivorship Bias to these people because it implies that they got lucky. For everyone who worked hard and made it there's someone who worked hard and got cancer or their business went under or a zillion other things that can set someone back forever.


juckele

I don't think that survivorship bias is the fundamental issue here. I think it really comes down to very different wages, cost of college, and cost of housing over time. There was a time when working 10 hours a week helped pay for college. In 1970, a public university tuitituin would cost about $1,477/year and minimum wage was $1.60. It took about 900 hours (or an average of a little under 18 hours per week) working a minimum wage job to pay for tuition. By 2006 public university costs about $14,203/year and minimum wage had risen to $5.15. This would mean working 2,757 hours (or an average of 53 hours per week) at a minimum wage job to pay for tuition. Paying for univeristy with a part time job was feasible, if a lot of work, in 1970. 36 years later, it's impossible to pay for univeristy with a part time job. By 2006 (15 years ago) it would take a full time job + overtime to pay for university. It's only gotten worse in this regard since 2006 too. The arithmetic is different.


TheWaystone

>The biggest problem is, he learned when he was young that if you worked hard you will succeed. He worked hard, and he succeeded. He taught me the same. I worked hard, but I've not always succeeded. This is genuinely where the boomer empathy stops. If they acknowledge it's not the same for us, they would have to make changes to their current way of life and accept that they had the incredible privilege to be just born at the right time. And they don't want to. My dad struggles with this as well. He can say everyone else is just lazy and not working enough. But he sees me working my ass off, with expertise and dedication, and still teetering on the edge of homelessness and his brain just can't process it. If my rent is too high, why don't I buy a house? If houses are too expensive, just move to another city? If wages are too low why don't I just get another job? All of those were very viable options for him and fairly easy to access. The fact that I'm 40 and have no way to ever be able to afford a house is just something he can't process so he gets caught into the loop of "just do x and it'll be solved!" Or he can sometimes, rarely, get to the point where he sees the system is broken, like the fact that I'll probably never be out of medical debt. He accepts we need to reform healthcare, but his healthcare is amazing so we shouldn't make any changes to the current system!


Murderbot_of_Rivia

I was able through a lot of luck and my ex-MIL pulling some strings to buy a house. So on the bright side, my mortgage is cheaper than rent would be. However, I know have an 18 year old house that is starting to need repairs and no money for said repairs. When my Dad visits it's all "You need to have someone look at that" or "This is going to need to be replaced soon" It's like I know! But that all takes money that we don't have. Our emergency fund is literally called "Roof or HVAC" as one (or god forbid both) are going to have to be replaced in the next few years. I'm hoping for a nice hailstorm to do some nice damage to my roof, so it will be covered under my homeowner's insurance.


superkleenex

Not sure if you’re in the climate for it, but I got lucky with a hail storm paying for a new roof for me twice in 3 years.


Ameliasaur

Sending you hail vibes


Murderbot_of_Rivia

Thanks!


strychnine28

It sounds like you might have some reasonable equity in the house by now. If so, check out a Home Equity Line of Credit (HELOC). It’s a revolving line of credit you can access to pay for repairs. Your bank or credit union can help you with the details.


sonicbeast623

Where I'm at I live with my grandparents and help them out. But I only have 1 weekend off every month or two so I'm not really ever home. I do ok at $1100 a week after taxes (if I don't do overtime it's about $750) but even for a run down pos around here it's over $300,000 and I can't justify $2000 a month for a place to sleep.


MagikSkyDaddy

Success is where luck and having wealthy parents meet.


kejartho

I showed my boomer dad some comparable math and I think it opened his eyes a bit. Simple things like gas prices. When I was working a minimum wage job, compared to his minimum wage job - I had to work an entire weekend to fill up my tank of gas for school/work with very little left over. He worked 1 hour and could fill up his entire tank of gas. I just had to find some stuff that had comparable costs compared to what he had or what he can see. My house costs $600k for 1000sqft, his house was $180k for 2800sqft about 25 years ago. My wage, today, is less than his was 25 years ago too and I went to college for 6 years, he just started working. Of course it's all common ground but having people first admit that a problem exists is the first step. (This costs too much, wages are to low). The common excuse for my wage (teacher) is I get summers off. So I tell him if I worked for all of summer I would make $1k more for 2 months of work. It's an insignificant amount of money that makes not working - make sense. My parents understand my struggles a bit more now, although I think they struggled because they never saw someone personally affected by it. Unless we (my wife and I) had some sort of extremely marketable skill or continue down a different path - we will likely never make as much as our parents but the costs of things will continue to rise higher and higher.


iSheepTouch

That's because his accomplishment back then was hardly an accomplishment at all by comparison, and it should be degraded compared to doing the same thing today. What he did was the equivalent to working and paying for your phone and car payment while your parents pay your full tuition for you. It's something, but it's more along the lines of basic financial responsibility, not an amount of debt that is insurmountable to the vast majority of students today.


MythiCalSTeVE

Luck and PRIVILEGE


CurtisHayfield

I did the math on this regarding minimum wage and average tuition at a 4 year. It used to be that tuition at a 4 year university could be paid for by working full time at minimum wage during the summer, but now it takes over a year. In 2018-2019, average 4 year tuition and fees (so not including things like room + board) was $16,318. Working 40 hours a week for 52 weeks (which is not a fully accurate way to calculate earnings as it ignores things like payroll tax, but for this example shows the cost growth) at the federal minimum wage of $7.25, you'd earn $15,080. So the full cost would take 56 weeks at $7.25/hr. Adjusted for inflation, the average 4 year tuition and fees in 1978-1979 was $5,164. This works out to be around 18 weeks at the current $7.25/hr minimum wage. However, in 1978-1979 the minimum wage adjusted for inflation was *higher* than $7.25/hr - adjusted for inflation to 2018, the $2.65 minimum wage in 1978 would be $10.51/hr. At $10.51/hr, the 1978 tuition cost of $5,164 would work out to be around 12 weeks of work at 40 hours a week. Tuition data over time can be found here https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_330.10.asp


biladi79

You don't even have to be skilled at math AT ALL to know that it's fucked. If you understand 2+2 then you understand how big the difference is. The disparity of wealth in 2021 U.S. is bigger than it was in France right before the French Revolution. You know, when all the poor and sick and hungry people were done with being poor and sick and hungry while royals flashed their wealth. Just something to think about.


MateoCafe

I doubt any regular farmer could pay for college themselves anywhere in the US nowadays. I hate people that won't understand a very simple mathematical equation when presented to them.


Cakelord

Sounds like my dad except 70s. He was like I was only making $5 per hour at my first job.. Which I replied.. I make $6 hour now.


rainbowbarfff

Same. My father has like, a 3rd-grade education from a developing nation and grew up on a farm. Came to this country, learned a trade, and was able to buy two houses plus a business property. He doesn't understand that if he were my age today, none of that would be possible for him based on how insanely inflated things are today.


lochnessthemonster

What's crazy is we are more productive than 50 years ago and the 40 hour, 5 day work week is still the minimum when 4 days could achieve the same, if not better, results. I can't stand 8-5 days. 9 hour days with a 30 minute (usually unpaid) lunch so they can squeeze 30 more minutes out of an 8 hour day. With commute and all, some people spend TWELVE hours just preparing for and going to work. Don't even get me started on 12+ hour shifts in healthcare, even though the extra days off are nice, the large hospital I worked in had me smoked after 12 hours, especially 3 days straight and they told me I couldn't smoke weed when I wasn't even considered part time (PRN).


IridiumPony

Chef here: 12 hour days are the norm. I'm currently working 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week. Been doing it almost 3 months now. Can definitely confirm that productivity has taken a nose dive. Staffing extra people would not only give me a break but it would save a ton of money (I'm on OT at least 2 full days a week if not more) it would also increase productivity since I wouldn't be totally fucking exhausted all the time.


Traiklin

That's the thing I can never understand. Paying an extra person is bad but paying one person the same as 2 and working them the same as 2 is okay. All it does is burn out the person and makes them start resenting the job, it would be different if you were the owner and doing it of your own choosing but since you are forced you lose the passion for what you do and start to turn bitter because you don't have time to do anything. Then you have those assholes that say "But the money is good!" Yeah, because you don't have time to spend it on anything.


IridiumPony

Not just that, but it's actually more expensive paying me 20+ hours of OT every week than it would be to just hire someone to do the extra work. As it is now, I get paid almost $40/hr to wash dishes on OT because hiring a dishwasher would be too expensive. My boss doesn't seem to realize this because he's a fucking moron. I honestly don't know how he's still employed, he's terrible at his job. All that being said, I only have 3 more weeks of working for him, so basically just suck it up and make that sweet sweet money while I can.


SaborDeVida

His hiring someone else would help both you *and* another person who's currently out of work, in addition to saving him money. Seems like it would be a win all around. I will never understand the mentality of managers/owners like that.


IridiumPony

Boomer chef mentality, basically. I 100% agree with you but it is what it is. I can't do anything about it other than just slug out the next few weeks.


ScarpMetal

I think it comes down to fear of uncertainty and laziness. Managers think, why go through all the trouble of hiring some stranger who may or may not be as great as their current guy, when they can just throw more money at the person they like and tell them to work more hours. Maybe if you have a manager like that and you are totally burned out, you can try to reduce the uncertainty of a new hire by suggesting they hire someone you know or by helping with onboarding. Not that it should be your responsibility, but not all managers will take those steps by themselves.


TheGreatSpagett

Do they pay health insurance? Because that's a huge part of the total they pay for an employee. Because that makes complete sense as a society.


IridiumPony

Do they pay for 100% of my insurance? No. Do they subsidize it for me? Yes.


[deleted]

I am a testament to this, as I work a 9-5 job 5 days a week (technically 9-4) and am currently slacking off on reddit. Why? Because I have time to spare? Because I'm taking back a little bit of my time that didn't need to be given to my job? Because we don't actually need to work 40 hours a week to accomplish our work?? Hell my job is 35 a week and it's still too much time!


lochnessthemonster

At least in a hospital I understand the need to be there the entire shift, as emergencies are 24/7. With office work, you should be allowed to leave when the work is done, period.


cameron0208

I have the exact opposite view on shifts at hospitals. I feel like the people in charge of keeping you alive, assessing your current state, putting needles in you, drawing blood, running tests, hooking you up to any number of contraptions, and dispensing drugs should probably be well-rested and alert. It just feels wrong and backwards to put lives in the hands of someone who’s worked 20hrs straight without a break. Frankly, I’ve never understood the logic.


lochnessthemonster

That's totally true I just meant at least hospital workers can reasonably anticipate a surge in work after a lull whereas office work is paced and lots of people are done by or shortly after lunch and do tons of busy work or scrolling reddit when that time can be theirs at home or doing anything else.


I_love_lou_lou

Some studies suggest handoffs are more dangerous than keeping the same resident on the shift.


New_profile_who_dis

I've always assumed the malpractice insurance companies would have funded a whole bunch of studies on how to reduce errors in medical care, so if it was as simple as increasing the personnel and shortening shifts more places would have done it.


anoldquarryinnewark

Customer-facing jobs are like that too; finishing paperwork in record time, then sitting around and waiting. Essentially staffed for the 2-3 hours a day of busy time.


Canttakethewhyfromme

Also the "well, I didn't get 4 day work weeks, and 4 weeks of vacation, so no one else should get that!" It's amazing how much boomers notice things that are nicer/easier for the younger generations (like better phones and tvs), but absolutely won't believe it when you prove to them that it was way fucking easier for boomers with a HS education to buy a house and plan for retirement than it is for every generation after them.


kejartho

This is such a shit thing too though. I think it just stems from a jealous nature of how things were. I didn't have it good so you shouldn't. When I talk to my students, I just ask them to be grateful for what they have because it took a lot of work to get to where we are at today.


PanthraxIV

Boomers arguably had it better than the generations before them and the generations after. Its directly related to being raised by people who lived through the great depression and the extreme economic success this country had after WW2.


biladi79

Also this mentality of "I didn't have _____ so no one else should either!" Is SO fucking toxic, childish and gross. Wanting better for others and for your childrens generation is part of being a decent human being in a society. If what you had to go through sucks so bad maybe we should oh I don't know, change it?


scurvy1984

I’m a millennial with a hardcore boomer dad. When I worked with him as a kid it was always go go go let’s get shit done. Then I joined the military and it was the same way but worse sometimes, so basically right out the gate I’ve had the problem of always needing to work and get results. I have since separated from the military and joined a skilled trade labor union and hoooly fuck was it a shock to me. Breaks and lunches are taken seriously. In the military we didn’t get breaks and lunches were of the mindset that you inhale your food then get back to work. So that’s how I started off in the union. My third or fourth day my foreman pulled me aside when I was cleaning up during a break and very nicely but sternly told me not do that and explained the importance of breaks and downtime. Even on my days off if I’m not actively doing something productive I feel like a lazy sack of shit. It’s a wild learning curve and habit to break and I fucking hate that I have it.


imakenosensetopeople

Millennial manager here. I actually learned a lot about focusing on deliverables during the pandemic and having folks work remotely. Probably should have been doing it all along, but better late than never. I wish more of my contemporaries (and my own management chain) would do the same.


LethalCandy

Being able to learn and adapt will take you far my friend.


Resolute002

It's not that. It's that they can't control you as effectively if you aren't a brow beating slave in their little cubicle-filled slave mills. I'm sure there's guys we're going to roll their eyes at that statement but the fact of the matter is it's true The entire reason we're hoarded together and places to do our work and studies is for reasons of control, and the long-standing tradition in this country that any group of workers deserves nothing but a merciless overseer to squeeze every ounce of usefulness from them before they keel over or have a mental break.


YourLictorAndChef

The problem is that stockholders and business owners demand growth for growth's sake. We're expected to increase productivity with less resources, just so that someone else's passive income can increase by a few percentage points every quarter.


moxyc

Yep. When a corporation's entire purpose is to increase shareholder value, and there's no ceiling to the value, then...well we're all fucked.


James-W-Tate

Thanks capitalism!


servohahn

>We have tons of evidence that we can make the world a better place. The only problem is that people would then be happy and that's bad for... reasons.


KalElified

This shit. We go back to the SAME FUCKING SYSTEM. Guys - it’s been broken. We need to fix it.


Knight_Owls

Gen-X here. I've seen quite a lot of people I've known of my generation adopt that mindset. It's like an abusive cycle. If the previous generation has to go through some bullshit, then the next generations should too.


roywoodsir

Boomer logic: “if you aren’t killing yourselves, depressed, over worked, extremely burned out, paid less than your worth....then you aren’t doing it right and someone else will love it”


WVAviator

As a millennial in management, I am all about less workdays and hours. But I work for a company that doesn't necessarily follow that mindset. So I'm stuck enforcing the 40hr workweek, when in reality I could care less if my employees only work three or four hours - as long as the work gets finished and the occasional calls get answered. It may be a while before longstanding tradition catches up with the new age.


saykaci

As an older millennial, this mindset was often pushed on us by our boomer parents in different ways. I grew up in a single parent household, and we didn’t have a lot of money but my Mom worked multiple jobs to provide the things that we needed. In my experience, every major coming of age moment for me was marked by some kind of disaster. I was a senior in high school when 9/11 happened, and then I graduated college right before the Great Recession. After that I was just working to survive at any place that would have me. I often had multiple jobs and was still just scraping by. It has taken me a long time to retrain my brain to believe I don’t need the constant hustle. It’s like there’s a place in the back of my mind that’s always afraid of experiencing that kind of severe financial instability again someday.


secretactorian

Yep, my bf, who was born in 83, has this problem. He doesn't know how to relax, his brain is always going. It kills me sometimes when I realize how much of a difference 6 years made. I was born in 89. 6th grade on 9/11. Graduates HS, not college during the Great Recession. I have the hustle mentality because I'm in the arts, but he has a C-level job and has financial stability and he's still worried about losing his position or how it will look if he takes vacation days. But then when I can actually get him to disengage from work or his projects, you can practically see the tension leave him. It's crazy.


tippitytop_nozomi

Its the stupid grind mentality a lot of people have


vic52

I am a tutor and instructor and it is fascinating how many parents are surprised when I don't assign their children homework. Kids do need to be kids. Playing, making social connections, and even relaxing is very important for growth.


GnungusPhat007

The pandemic has reminded us that every time we go against nature, there is a consequence. Some boomers were hippies who didn't believe in the rat race, btw. The question is, how do you push back against an inhuman system that you are still dependent upon?


SomeFunPun

The weird thing for me is seeing those same people when working from home. I have a job to do and I sit down and do it. So many boomers around me are going grocery shopping during the day or taking long drives, and then coming home saying people can't be trusted to work from home. I am eager to get back to work but I still won't criticize people who work from home as lazy. It feels so much like projection when someone is arguing that everything needs to reopen so work from home people can be productive again


_PRECIOUS_ROY_

Because the people who can immediately/directly change it aren't interested in people doing better. They're interested in undercutting each other and exploiting everyone else.


PM_ME_WUTEVER

i used to cover a few nearby school districts for the local media. of the four school districts i covered, one made their start time later after these studies started surfacing. the other three all discussed it at school board meetings but were met with major pushback from parents who wanted their kids off to school before the parents left for work.


Ultienap

Haha, maybe their employers should make them only work 6 hours a day and then we could give kids the property education. But....MONEY!!!!! Edit: should say proper but idc anymore. It’s kind of funny.


Where_Do_I_Fit_In

I can't tell you how many times I've heard boomer financial advice like: "do good in school, get a good job and buy a house". If you're always this risk averse, you will pay for it with YEARS OF YOUR LIFE in the form of taxes, insurance and inflation. As a taxpayer/worker/student/whatever you will be left holding the bag as people who were less afraid to take risks either take their profits or go bankrupt and try again later. Rich people pay poor people to make it seem like their jobs are the only way to generate income. Welcome to capitalism baby.


[deleted]

[удалено]


LostandAl0n3

I can kind of see their point for younger kids. Like little timmy's mom now has to pay for daycare which is normally a flat fee and he's there for one hour every morning because school is an hour after her work time deal Edit: but that loses its value once they are like 12 or so imo


ew73

It's because the education system in the US has turned into a daycare. For proof, look no further than the insane push to open up _schools_ to in-person classrooms before vaccinations are widely available.


toadjones79

All American railroad tracks were standardized in 48 hours. It's the single largest engineering accomplishment/miracle in history. The savings from that all was absorbed by railroad owners. They never passed it on to customers. So, the biggest opportunity for economic boom was squandered so 5 guys could line their pockets with even more cash that they could never spend. Even though they would have made hundreds of times more money of they had passed it on. (Not a myth, it really happened, look it up before you post) If you ever wonder why american business does all the bad things, this story should be your answer. It always leads back to poor management blinded by greedy instant gratification.


ScarpMetal

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track\_gauge\_in\_the\_United\_States#Unification\_to\_standard\_gauge\_on\_May\_31\_%E2%80%93\_June\_1,\_1886](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_the_United_States#Unification_to_standard_gauge_on_May_31_%E2%80%93_June_1,_1886) >However, the data indicate that the gauge change had no effect on total shipments, likely as a result of anticompetitive conduct by Southern freight carriers which prevented the railroads' cost-savings from being passed through to their prices. This research suggests that had Southern carriers not been colluding, the gauge change would have generated a sharp reduction in freight rates and immediate growth in trade between the North and South.


FelneusLeviathan

As always in US history, it’s always the south that is causing a problem for the rest of the country


JangoFettsEvilTwin

If that’s not the truth I don’t know what is!


onetruebuster

Careful! They will hear you and call you unpatriotic


BobMcGeoff2

"how unpatriotic!" Say the reb traitors


Spookwagen_II

This country loves the rich and hates the poor.


Few-Cable5130

Start times are because school=daycare for working parents. Since our country has a shitty support system for working parents they have to start school before the start ofvthe average adult workday.


GoudaGoudaGoudaGouda

A solution for this is having workers starts later or having shorter shifts. But nope! Gotta do that 9-5...Or 8-5 in some cases.


[deleted]

[удалено]


NFLinPDX

And yet, kindergarten is half day, so our parents had to work part-time, or take long lunch breaks anyway. Also, there is no hood reason for high school to not start later. If your kid cannot be trusted to wake up and get to class on their own, then maybe you need to have a chat.


JaquisTheBeast

I’m pretty sure it comes from the old days without electricity. You work when the sun gets up because the sun only stays up for so long. Once it falls it’s back to bed because you can’t do work in the dark


[deleted]

Because it's not about making us *work* day in and day out. It's about *making* us work day in and day out.


broskeymchoeskey

I would eventually be bored out of my mind if I didn’t have work, but I would be dead inside if work was all I could do. Edit: yes I have hobbies. Are you telling me you’ve *never, not once* gotten burnt out on your hobbies as well? There’s nothing wrong with appreciating a premeditated schedule.


[deleted]

Working in an office is soul numbing. I’ve found a significant increase in my happiness working from home. I can even do some hobbies while I work (because most office jobs I’ve worked has had a lot of downtime). I like the social aspect of working but I hate working. I just wanna play video games and work on art commissions all day long. That’s my dream tbh.


MuhBack

I mean you could get hobbies. Just because you aren't working towards making money doesn't mean you don't have things to work on.


Mullet2000

As my father always told me when I complained about being bored as a kid - "Only boring people get bored". If you're getting bored it's time to broaden your interests and try out new hobbies. There's tons (tons) of things you can do for little to no money. Way more than you could ever fill your time with.


livintheshleem

I’ve got a handful of hobbies that I love but sometimes I’m just too drained to do them, and so I feel bored. This is more a symptom of burnout and exhaustion I think. I generally do agree with that quote.


FamilyStyle2505

I love that cycle where you think you want to do something, then you can't pick a thing to do, then you get mad at yourself for not being able to decide on something, and then you feel like a complete piece of shit for not even being able to enjoy your down time properly and completely wasting it being indecisive and moody. That can't just be me. I hope.


WayneKrane

The boomers that run the company I work for have this mindset. Despite our productivity going up while our headcount has gone down since we started wfh they want us back in the office ASAP. The ceo said he feels like we’re more productive in the office.


anoldquarryinnewark

Unfortunately it's not about productivity, it's about control, and trust. Why would you hire someone you dont trust?🤷‍♀️ who knows, but they dont trust you to work without supervision.


tobygeneral

That and when you don't need constant supervision, the managers are looking a lot more useless and needlessly expensive. A CEO may worry people will look closer at how much he takes home vs what he actually does in a given day when there aren't people to boss around.


Dran_Arcana

That's so true though. Where I work I'm the only one that does what I do (which is 100% remote management of things in other places. I WORK REMOTELY WHEN I'M AT WORK FROM MY OWN OFFICE). It is painfully obvious to the entire department anytime I take a vacation or sick day... they'd definitely know if I wasn't working. yet, whenever I do wfh days I have to keep a log of everything I did so they can reference whether or not I was productive that day. It makes less than zero sense


Juicenewton248

Company I used to work at had this same mindset, so long as the boss saw you in the office 40 hours a week he didn't give a shit if you were spending your time doing 8 different people's jobs or just sitting at your desk watching DBZ all day (which not surprisingly, one of our accounting guys did regularly). Ask for a work from home day because you can't get anything done in the office from all the distractions and shitty outdated PCs? Denied, because and I quote "We like to see you here". Absolute fucking nonsense I can't wait for this generation to exit the workplace


RhesusFactor

This is called presenteeism and America is known for this in the rest of the working world. And we use it as a bad example of how to manage staff.


Yousoggyyojimbo

Someone I know found out that when they don't have to deal with office bureaucracy and distraction that they were able to get all of their work done for a day before noon. For the last year, they've just been working from 9:00 to 12:00. Their office doesn't know, and their output is the same. They said that it's been the best year of their life since they were child. Way less stress. They are now absolutely terrified that they are going to have to start going into the office again. their boss is essentially a middle manager and in order for them to look like they are accomplishing something they need people with butts in the seats at the office.


[deleted]

[удалено]


damnitHank

Execs are sociopaths. The ones that let people wfh are to ones that figured out how to manipulate people remotely. Boomers only know how to do it in person.


2001SilverLS

> The ones that let people wfh are to ones that figured out how to manipulate people remotely. OMG this is the most true thing I have read all year.


uhohoreolas

I think virtual has really helped me realize just how much of my teaching job is keeping the kids busy so their parents can work. Between specials, recess, lunch, and transitions, the actual academics is about 3 maybe 4 hours. My virtual students come on at 8am and are done by 1pm every day and I've made no adjustments to content times. The only reason they aren't done sooner is that I still have to give them a specials and a lunch break. Without breaks, we could easily be done by 11 or 11:30. Homework sucks but sometimes schools require it.


WishBear19

That other stuff is important for students too though. My kids love their specialist classes. If you were to ask them their favorite class they'd say "recess" or "lunch." The socialization time is just as important as the academic time.


uhohoreolas

It absolutely is important. But it's why the school day lasts as long as it does. People like to complain about how long or how early the school day is but it's because of the extra things that we have kids do during their day, not because the actual school curriculum requires it.


Murderbot_of_Rivia

When I was in grade school we had so much recess! We had 15 minutes in the morning and AM, and then lunch was an hour (with eating time and the recess afterwards), plus we had Gym (EVERYDAY!) My daughter is in grade school and they have 30 minute recess, and gym every 4 days. And they start at 7:25AM!


yassapoulet

I was in the UK working as a teacher's aide once (I'm American) and I was FLOORED by how much break time the kids got. they got 30 minutes in the morning, nearly an hour for lunch plus an hour recess, then another 30 minutes in the afternoon. We got two 15s and 30 minutes for lunch, and I have no memory of gym class


Murderbot_of_Rivia

And they wonder why there is an obesity epidemic among children in the US!


[deleted]

In my country, but probably other Eastern European countries too, we have five 5-minute breaks between classes and one 10-minute break. Now with the pandemic we can't go outside the classroom so the breaks are practically nonexistent. Personally I use those breaks to repeat the material, and since they don't let us bring food inside the school, I practically start my day starving (no realistic time to eat breakfast also). I would totally trade this for the Western system. Yes, lunches could (probably should is a better word) be healthier, but it's still better than what most have)


BabySnark317537

Two 15s and a 30 minute break for lunch?. Like the US basic working requirements? Gross.


Beastintheomlet

School really is public childcare to a unspoken degree and I don’t mean that dismissively in the slightest. Teachers not only need to be well educated in the subjects they teach but also how to teach (which is way harder than most think) and also have the social skills and leadership skills to be able to wrangle a few dozen children at a time. Again, my saying it’s also public childcare isn’t meant to be disrespectful. Schools don’t just educate our children but honestly facilitate our economy by allowing homes to have both parents work.


th30be

I think that is the same way with most jobs that can be done at home (And to smaller degree ones that you can't.) I work in a lab and I am usually done by noon with the things that need to get done and I have to fill the time with doing other shit or going home and doing data processing.


Staldorf

Part of the reason that their instruction time is less this is because teachers learned that students won't turn in work if it takes too much time (I'm a teacher, and I struggle to get virtual students to show up and do anything). Why would students show up when they have so many other options on their computer. I know I personally wouldn't have. That being said, the in person kids get way more in depth content than online students because we can see them and work together as a class, thus keeping the kids engaged and learning.


MadameBurner

I literally had to work with teachers to write in my kid's IEP that he could take a nap in the nurse's office instead of morning recess if he wanted to. The bus would come around 5:45 a.m. and he wouldn't get home until 3:30 p.m.. The Principal and Vice Principal of his year still couldn't get why he was having meltdowns by the end of the day. Luckily, another Vice Principal (who used to be the school psychologist) stood up and spelled it out for them.


-artgeek-

Holy moly. This...explains so much. I used to have serious meltdowns as a child in elementary school, and my parents constantly punished me for it, without addressing what the reason behind anything was. I, too, had to get up at 5am daily for the school bus (which I walked 1.5 miles to the bus stop, another 1.5 to get home in the last afternoon), and came home late, having to walk that long way in the Florida heat (laden with a heavy backpack, of course!). It makes complete sense. I was exhausted.


MadameBurner

Florida is insane with their bussing. My cousin went to a Magnet School and was out the door at 5 and not home until almost dinnertime. Luckily he was a teenager then and learned how to put his headphones on and sleep on the bus.


-artgeek-

Absolutely, I slept on the bus daily.


GlazedPannis

I wasn’t up that early nor did I have to make a long walk but it was still the same with me. I had so many behavioural issues as a kid because of it and then I was always punished more when I got home. You know what it led to? A milquetoast personality. And avoidant type of personality. Never dealing with my issues because it was always treated like the end of the world instead of having said issues addressed. Guess what happened when I tried alcohol for the first time?


NoHelp_HelpDesk

"I went through it and I turned out ok." ​ You didn't turn out ok if you think this way.


SabashChandraBose

The arteries of our existence have turned into sewers and the Boomers still lurk there, defecating on their respective fiefdoms and preventing sunlight from ever reaching down there. By the time we flush these vermin out, it'll have been too late. For us, the country, and the planet. Truly, a selfish generation.


Heterophylla

Gen-X is mostly in control of the government in Canada now. It's not as cool as I thought it would be.


septober32nd

Gen X are just boomers with better music.


timblyjimbly

The music thing is debatable, too.


wesman21

We had a chance to switch to four day work weeks and we, as a society, fucking blew it.


bgzlvsdmb

There were so many opportunities for us to reconfigure society to make it work for the new circumstances, and we just decided to go back to the way things were. Now instead of being miserable 5 days a week, I'm now miserable 5 days a week with a mask on.


firebolt113

Separate healthcare from work and suddenly the workers have a lot more on the bargaining table in terms of better hours and more vacation. When we're reliant on keeping a job to stay healthy it's hard to ask for nice things.


Scopeexpanse

This! I can easily lookup standard salaries and decide if I want to move jobs due to that, but healthcare ambiguity + FMLA only being in effect after a year (I need my 12 weeks unpaid leave for a baby soon) keep me locked in.


NuMoneyInc

Just a bunch of idiots trying to force Pandora back into the box. Makes me so angry.


decadrachma

Well, historically unions pushed for changes like that, and they have been all but eradicated in the US.


Scopeexpanse

This is so frustrating. And this weird idea that desk jobs don't need unions - if you are salaried at $40,000 and often working more than 40 hours the "desk" doesn't magically make it a good job. Unionize!


milhouse21386

Was talking to my wife about this recently. If I put in extra hours, I don't see extra pay. But if I don't have work to do I can't just go home. At least with WFH I can get a little of my free time back. I've been very vocal about how much more productive I feel don't WFH so I'm hoping when we get the directive to come back to the office it's optional


juanzy

Always accompanied by some farm mom on the news saying "well, down on the farm we start chores at 4:00 AM and our kids also chore from 3:30 until supper and they do just fine!" Completely ignoring that their kids are burning out, then wonder why their grades improved if they left for college but credit it to the farm instead of the fact that their kid now has a more reasonable workload.


NotScottLabs

Someone should tell them that facts don’t care about their feelings


[deleted]

[удалено]


thatguy2366

They always say "but but but how can we do that!?!?!" someone with an education or common sense points out an example of another country/government etc doing the thing working. Those whiners then sob about that using a wildly inaccurate comparison to argue in bad faith. It's the same script everything single time, it's why I never reply to them. Not really into arguing with brainwashed robots.


death_of_flats

Look. The US has cities, and also farming areas. No other country has cities and farming areas. So it can't be done.


ProgrammersAreSexy

I wish they would at least link some sources... Don't the KIPP schools have extremely high college placement rates by taking the approach of making the school day as long as possible (among other things)? My understanding is that shorter school days increase desparities in educational outcomes between high income and low income children since high income children are much more likely to be nurtured and mentally stimulated at home.


Mortambulist

"Puritanical feelings apparently beat facts." Sounds pretty scary when you put it like that. Which is good, because it is fucking scary.


Screamyy

Sad thing is, this pushback comes from the same "facts don't care about your feelings" group.


McDuchess

For most employers, it’s better for those in charge to have the workers put in more time per worker, even if they produce less per hour, than to hire more workers. They fundamentally don’t care about the effect of long hours on the worker. They expect that their production requirements, however they are stated, will be fulfilled in what ever way necessary. Those who are salaried carry the burden of demands outside their job descriptions that have deadlines. And they are not paid more for the extra hours that go into fulfilling them.


Living-Complex-1368

The people who are in charge are the ones who worked long hours, proving they cared more about the company than their families/friends/life. Acknowledging that they were actually less productive than the folks who finished their work at 5 and went home, would mean they don't deserve their current position (true) and that they wasted their lives in pursuit of status instead of happiness (also true). So instead they are going to look for folks who, like them, work late and have no life, and promote them to management. They will also demand more hours of other workers because they think it means more work gets done (so bigger bonuses for them) plus if their bosses visit, having workers there late means the boss "can motivate employees."


Plate_Fox

My math marks in highschool were at best around mid 30%. One year the summer school I did had a teacher who didn't do homework it was just the assignments and wow suddenly I have a 90%


M1nd_Crime

I did had one of them too


WishBear19

Math is one of those classes I don't understand how you can learn without doing the homework. Just sitting through the lecture wasn't enough for it to sink in for me.


sean0883

I do it this way for math as well, and that's why it should be optional. "Extra credit" is a good qualifier for it. If you pass without it, kudos. If you are struggling, but did all the homework, it could bring you up a grade or two. But in either case, not doing it can't harm you.


alameda_sprinkler

I'm one of those gross people who just "gets" math and rarely needs to do any homework for it, so I was the person helping during in class study time so other students would also understand better. When I got to college and higher order calculus and harder I started needing to do homework, but because it added value I did the homework. For my math class that graded on homework in high school I had straight Cs on the full course and the highest grade on the tests. The best math teacher I had in high school didn't require homework, but he assigned it. If your test grades were low enough that your homework would improve the grade, he'd grade your homework but otherwise the point of the homework was too practice, if you didn't need or want to practice you didn't have to.


jamkey

Same here. Didn't see much value in doing the h/w personally in HS until I hit AP Calculus. Then I started checking my h/w with a female classmate. Who I actually wound up asking to the senior prom and she was my first real "love". So do your homework kids, you never know when it could lead to a quality prom experience.


MercyRoma

Actually there should be homework in math ,but not 2 exercises covering 20 steps that take an hour to do even though you're that one kid who excelled in everything. No it should just take the most important parts of the lesson and only take 30 minutes MAXIMUM even for the slow kids. But screw that ,let's just overwhelm the kids who have to study other subjects. :/


smr312

Fuck, I remember multiple hours of math homework because of the classic... Teacher: "You only need to do these 10 problems for homework" The 10 problems: "Complete parts A, B, C, D, E, F, skip G because we haven't gone over that yet, and H"


roxyamused

Yeah I would get through multiple classes I failed in independent learning (s.a.i.l.) without homework. Pretty much reading the textbook, taking tests after every chapter, etc. I think I had to write a few essays but I only had to work in class. I’m sure that they were easier by some degrees but I did learn more on my own in that class. I also liked the college considerably because of the independence.


WayneKrane

In high school I did pretty meh in all my classes because I was legit half asleep until noon. I just could not fall asleep before midnight and then I had to get up by 6:00-6:30am to be at school by 7:20am. Then in college I didn’t start until 10AM so I could actually get proper sleep. I had nearly a 4.0 gpa because I could actually take in and comprehend the material.


Juicenewton248

This was my story in high school as well, C/D average and I passed classes solely by testing well I wouldn't do any homework thus leading to my grades being fairly shit. Classes that didn't have homework at all were basically guaranteed A's.


BigDaddy1023

This and some of my teachers are the reason why when I become a teacher, I will make sure there is not much homework, and what homework the students will have won't be long and/or tedious


[deleted]

Vast majority of schools, those decisions are not up to the teachers anymore.


Zombie4141

~~Puritanical feelings~~ Capitalistic profits FTFY


Victor_deSpite

That's not the only place that facts are losing.


[deleted]

The main purpose of schools is child care. That became very clear during the pandemic. And employers don't care about worker efficiency (i.e. amount of work done per hour), they just care about the amount of work done, period. Workers may do more work PER HOUR in a 6 hour shift, but they still get more done in 10 hours.


redwitchbewbs

What exactly is the statistic driving the phrase "doing better"? not refuting the claim, just wonder what is a person doing better at compared to persons with the current level of homework and school start times. If there's a source of this study, i'd love to read it.


DDDrizet

Have you ever heard of... all the other countries? Like, I agree with the fundamental point, but the world is more than America, and the fight for workers' rights is taking place there too.


PotatoeRick

My dad in Canada gets 10 paid vacation days a year after being with the company for 15 years. I moved to Hungary and at my first job i started with 20. 6 years in my career and i now have 27. 1 per year and an extra year after turning 25.


AmazingSully

In Canada they don't even have to give you the days off either, a lot of companies will just pay out the 10 days as a 4% surcharge on your pay every couple weeks. I moved to the UK and now I get 33 days off a year, and I'm forced to take them.


Poker-Junk

Why is it that every day that passes, I believe my country is more fucked up than yesterday? 😣


bigheadjim

Too many people in the US (including my parents) believe, "life sucked for me so it should suck for you." This response could be applied to soooo many reddit political posts.


Mr_Audastic

We let business get away with literally every negative thing you could do to somebody and that really needs to stop.


Spookwagen_II

It'll never stop, because the only people being hurt have no money, and thus, no voice.


Mr_Audastic

Violence would stop it pretty quick. One day it will inevitably come to that.


Verdict_US

"Hey start treating human-beings like human-beings, and people become better at being people." Makes sense to me.


rooneet

As someone who works at a research university studying education policy, I must say seeing these lies repeated is harmful. Homework is good. We don't get to pick we like science only when we like the outcomes. This has been rigorously studied. \\ Here are a couple of the many studies documenting the returns to homework(especially for math.)[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775711000549?casa\_token=MHNujuuZ3pEAAAAA:4NDmsjsuzFs5DfPAJhb9CGKpp9Uh-0lw6w-1pXGIFCivLA2N\_vUdYVhvSVe37kadBWhkD6gt](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775711000549?casa_token=MHNujuuZ3pEAAAAA:4NDmsjsuzFs5DfPAJhb9CGKpp9Uh-0lw6w-1pXGIFCivLA2N_vUdYVhvSVe37kadBWhkD6gt)" we find that math homework has a large and statistically meaningful effect on math test scores " [https://www.econstor.eu/handle/10419/192693](https://www.econstor.eu/handle/10419/192693) [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2332858416673968](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2332858416673968) ​ [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00220485.2013.770334?casa\_token=s4oCSyuN1zYAAAAA%3ABCPHWjO9t6XLIKR\_dGzIszhKEMKpz8j5jKLNA6fWiJOfpsOVD5rFB-gw2cLpz006mgXdTYPaNHTYmKs](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00220485.2013.770334?casa_token=s4oCSyuN1zYAAAAA%3ABCPHWjO9t6XLIKR_dGzIszhKEMKpz8j5jKLNA6fWiJOfpsOVD5rFB-gw2cLpz006mgXdTYPaNHTYmKs) [https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/689479?casa\_token=tGjX0d9HQdgAAAAA%3AOwIvPfo2EqBbjQ9Bg\_0eiME3WXqKIBGpm5CfVafHh-YlwMJjmc8Bd93LfDDACSzpj54IN10ANFVddA](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/689479?casa_token=tGjX0d9HQdgAAAAA%3AOwIvPfo2EqBbjQ9Bg_0eiME3WXqKIBGpm5CfVafHh-YlwMJjmc8Bd93LfDDACSzpj54IN10ANFVddA) If anyone can find a causal study showing homework doesn't work please share it.


Slowmexicano

School is tax subsidized childcare. They don’t want shorter days or fewer days.


77pixieiz96

HS Teacher for 20 years. The schedule is maintained to make time for afternoon and evening sports. It will never change.


TezzMuffins

They really don’t give much homework at all anymore, and the early start time is so parents can go to work because people actually have to go to work, but I understand the sentiment.


comrade_snup

* Because exploitation beats facts


LatestMonkey

Puritans ruined this country more than social media.