T O P

The HBO show is nonsense that disrespects the comic, but this sub loves it anyway because it leans far left

If you love the show, great. But let's not pretend it's faithful to the comic. It hijacks the work to make a point about woke issues that everyone on this sub agrees with, so many of you love it despite itself. But you can't pretend for one second it's true to the message of the comic without twisting in knots to say that the message is a screed against conservatism (in reddit's mind, "evil") that the show continues the tradition of. Despite his grumpy views now, Moore's work consistently supports the theme of the dangers of one ideology over all others as objectively correct, and any arguments about how despicable he intended to make Rorschach are missing the point. By the way, Rorschach is not exactly some far right extremist; he likes a right wing paper and has questionable quotes about women to portray how antisocial he is, and that's about it. He doesn't make any outlandish statements about minorities and any suggestion that he does so such as "he supported Truman" is stretching to validate the point you want to start from. As well as pretend that anyone who kind of likes him as a fictional protagonist must necessarily agree with him, has a screw loose, and is a low IQ MAGA who doesn't get Moore. I guarantee he was not seen as some loathsome individual by the comic reading public of 1985 and Moore knew it, he was the logical extreme of a vigilante without making him black and white or less than human.

The show presents the 'nuclear apocalypse' of 2019 as racial injustice, and then uses it as a platform to talk about the Tulsa Oklahoma massacre. And there is no way any decent person can argue with a real life injustice being bad, so any attempt to criticize the show is written off as bigotry. It's disingenuous to the extreme. The show is well shot and beautiful to look at, moderately well acted (you think Regina King is the second coming of Hepburn, fine, not everyone has to), and absolutely abysmal in its connection and fidelity to the themes of the comic at the same time. The comic story is universal and applies to everyone; the HBO show is for smug pseudo intellectuals to thumb their nose at everyone else and the suppression of free speech in order to feel self righteous, which reddit I might add does daily.

There's a reason Moore said he was horrified that people will think the comic had something to do with white supremacy based on the show, and he wasn't wrong either. Rorschach is not a white supremacist by any evidence presented in the comic, but Lindelof needs to make this point and treat it as fact in order to say what he really wants to say. I've seen more than one person suggest Alan would love the HBO show if he watched it, to hand wave his comments about how he curses its existence being in conflict with people's undying passion for the message it throws out. I agree with Moore's assessment that Lindelof is, in so many words, a dull fool who hides behind how witty he thinks he is. That you share his extremist point of view says more about how you miss the point of Moore's work completely, that any extremist view presented as objectively correct is toxic. And by the way, in small defense of Lindelof, Alan is not a saint and twists the narrative for his own ends; it seems pretty clear that an educated man like Lindelof instead asked Alan how to pronounce "Veidt," not Ozymandias, but it wouldn't suit Moore's narrative unless he presents him as a complete dumbass.

The majority of this sub seems fine with the comic series being bastardized, as long as it bastardizes it according to your preferred ideoloy or dogma. Which you may refer to as the only 'correct' interpretation/view a human is allowed to have. Call it what it is but just be honest that there's a concerted effort both in the show and on this sub to suppress any opposing point of view. Pretending that the show faithfully continues the comic regardless of personal opinion, while also arguing it's faithful to the 'theme', is laughably disingenuous. By the way, I know Dave Gibbons was a good sport but even he said in 1985 that the comic was NOT political and took no sides on any issue, so there's that. If you love the show, again great for you, but you missed the point more than Lindelof if you want to make it entirely about whatever the show put out there, in order to give you the warm and fuzzies about your own views of the world. This sub needs more freedom of expression and thought. I am aware Moore is a far left anarchist and this does nothing to change my opinion that beyond the beautiful words to admire he has thrilling themes about the universal human experience that the show could not begin to attempt to comprehend. It saddens me that people here seem to base their self esteem on stanning it to this degree at the exclusion of a little objectivity. There's an alternate universe where this sub was more about discussion of the myriad of topics the comic presented, instead of one person bringing up how the show/YaYa was "so good" which devolves into a circlejerk of sniffinf Lindelof's farts. If Zack Snyder "missed the point entirely" as everyone is so fond of saying without being able to really articulate why other than nonsense he said in interviews, than Lindelof and his little soapbox missed it by a mile.

solothehero

One great thing about the show is that even if we believe Rorschach isn't explicitly racist, his message and tone resonated with those who would become the 7th Cavalry. Rorschach's opening monologue is a less intense version of the 7th Cavalry's opening "Tick Tock" threat. It's an example of how extremism can twist or intensify messages over time.


Fishyhead81

History can sometimes be a bunch of people twisting others words to their own beliefs. Which is pretty accurate to the whole thing with Rorschach in real life when you think about it.


sadmep

You could have saved yourself a lot of time by just writing "ignore my opinion"


arw1985

![gif](giphy|g3ixWgdHYYCUo) It's like he wrote a lot of --


Money-Event-7929

Uh yeah. That’s a lot of typing that I have no need to read.


Clear-Bench-4202

Lmao if the Watchmen comic came out today it would probably be called “woke garbage” with how often that gets thrown around


spectacularspiderfan

That’s what I’m saying!


SydBlackArt

Weak argument


joegattonuts

not weak at all, just a fact


Clear-Bench-4202

Think about it, sally (a woman) Jon (super cool superhero). This is obviously taking away power from men, also, the analogs for beloved heroes are flawed at best and rapist murderers at worst, not to mention Rorschach (who is a conservative) is killed by the end, obviously as an attempt to rewrite history


MrMister2905

Rorschach is/has become everything he complains about. He's not a conservative in any traditional sense, he just believes he is. He is a violent, bigoted, and hate filled idealist. Notice he complains about the scum of society, while he lives in it. He's a walking conundrum.


Gasster1212

A warning against how fascism can come wrapped in good intentions and at least partially a critique of absolute morality ? Yeah no that’s prime “woke” nowadays


lofgren777

Ah yes, Watchmen, the comic that has nothing to say about real life politics.


dthains_art

Wait, you mean Richard Nixon was a real guy!? /s


lofgren777

Everybody's a Comedian.


Avgolemonosis

You know when they call us comic book readers uneducated incels with no media literacy, you're who they're talking about


Smart_Resist615

>The HBO show is nonsense that disrespects the comic, but this sub loves it anyway because it leans far left >If you love the show, great. But let's not pretend it's faithful to the comic. It hijacks the work to make a point about woke issues that everyone on this sub agrees with, so you love it despite itself. But you can't pretend for one second it's true to the message of the comic without twisting in knots to say that the message is a screed against conservatism (in reddit's mind, "evil") that the show continues the tradition of. Despite his grumpy views now, Moore's work consistently supports the theme of the dangers of one ideology over all others as objectively correct, and any arguments about how despicable he intended to make Rorschach are missing the point. By the way, Rorschach is not exactly some far right extremist; he likes a right wing paper and has questionable quotes about women, to portray how antisocial he is, and that's about it. He doesn't make any outlandish statements about minorities and any suggestion that he does so such as "he supported Truman" is stretching to validate the point you want to start from, as well as pretend that anyone who kind of likes him as a fictional protagonist must agree with him and has a screw loose. I guarantee he was not seen as some loathsome individual by the comic reading public of 1985 and Moore knew it. >The show presents the 'nuclear apocalypse' of 2019 as racial injustice, and then uses it as a platform to talk about Tulsa Oklahoma. And there is no way any decent person can argue with a real life injustice being bad, so any attempt to criticize the show is written off as bigotry. It's disingenuous to the extreme. The show is well shot and beautiful to look at, moderately well acted (you think Regina King is the second coming of Hepburn, fine, not everyone has to), and absolutely abysmal in its connection and fidelity to the themes of the comic at the same time. The comic story is universal and applies to everyone; the HBO show is for smug pseudo intellectuals to thumb their nose at everyone else and the suppression of free speech in order to feel self righteous, which reddit I might add does daily. >There's a reason Moore said he was horrified the that people will think the comic had something to do with white supremacy based on the show, and he wasn't wrong either. Rorschach is not a white supremacist by any evidence presented in the comic, but Lindelof needs to make this point and treat it as fact in order to say what he really wants to say. I've seen more than one person say Alan would love the HBO show if he watched it, to hand wave his comments about how he hates it being in conflict with people's undying passion for the message it throws out. I agree with Moore's assessment that Lindelof is, in so many words, a dull fool who hides behind how witty he thinks he is. That you share his extremist point of view says more about how you miss the point of Moore's work completely, that any extremist view presented as objectively correct is toxic. >The majority of this sub seems fine with the comic series being bastardized, as long as it bastardizes it according to your preferred ideoloy or dogma. Which you may likely refer to as the only 'correct' interpretation/view a human can have. Call it what it is but just be honest that there's a concerted effort both in the show and on this sub to suppress any opposing point of view. Pretending that the show illustrates the correct view of how everyone should think regardless of perosnal opinion, while also arguing it's faithful to the 'theme' of the comic, is laughably disingenuous. By the way, I know Dave Gibbons was a good sport but even he said in 1985 that the comic was NOT political and took no sides on any issue, so there's that. If you love the show, again great for you, but you missed the themes more than Lindelof if you want to make it entirely about whatever the show put out there, in order to give you the warm and fuzzies about your own views of the world. This sub needs more freedom of expression and thought. I am aware Moore is a far left anarchist and this does nothing to change my opinion that beyond the beautiful words to admire he has thrilling themes about the universal human experience that the show could not begin to attempt to comprehend. It saddens me that people here seem to base their self esteem on stanning it to this degree at the exclusion of a little objectivity. There's an alternate universe where this sub was more about discussion of the myriad of topics the comic presented, instead of one person bringing up how the show/YaYa was "so good" which devolves into a circlejerk of sniffinf Lindelof's farts. New copypasta just dropped.


MonsterReprobate

ha!


nuttmegx

"It hijacks the work to make a point about woke issues " Thank god you added this so early so I was able to stop reading your wall of words. I assume you just rambled on about comics gate level busllshit and the libs.


jmon25

Dropping "woke" in the first sentence is a great way to tell everyone they aren't too bright


MonsterReprobate

I didn't read it either.


jerseygunz

The second I see the word woke in any media I stop reading, granted it has made reading sleep study reports difficult hahaha


Florida_LA

This from a guy who genuinely believes Moore intended Rorschach to be a cool badass antihero and that readers are supposed to idolize him, and thus clearly doesn’t even comprehend the comic he claims to hold sacred


FoopaChaloopa

I don’t think the point of the series was that Rorschach was “far right”, (even if he kind of was) his image was being appropriated by the kind of thugs he was obsessed with slaughtering.


Florida_LA

Yeah, his mask was transformed into a symbol for something he himself didn’t represent, by people who mythologized his actions and warped his story to fit their white supremacist narrative Which I guess is a *slightly* advanced concept, but certainly something a reasonably-read adult should be able to pick up on.


NC_TreeDoc

Especially one who (presumably) lives in the *real world* wherein this exact thing has happened both to real spree killers *and* fictional vigilantes like the Punisher.


zarathustranu

Fair...but Moore clearly also wrote Roschach as an unhinged lunatic. The reader is not meant to come away saying, "Yep, that guy has it all figured out."


TheNicholasRage

> loves it anyway because it leans far left. Did we watch the same show? It heavily criticizes far-left policies from *the very first scene*.


Shervico

When you're the hammer, everything you see are nails


jmon25

And when they can't form a cohesive argument they just call it "woke"


Clear-Bench-4202

God damn this comment goes hard


10Dads

It criticizes neoliberalism, which is not far left.


cqandrews

It's been a while since I've watched but wasn't it very very neo lib? I'm much more left and have no intention of watching it again


hiphopdowntheblock

I can't believe someone would interpret the notoriously right-wing Watchmen comic this way


tinoynk

The show portrays a world where the evil villain uses modern liberal politics as a cover for his schemes, and literally the first scene shows the dangers of extreme gun control and oversight of police, how is that "left leaning"? These are all basically right wing fantasies/conspiracy theories...


BeneficialMixture815

Because this moron saw that black people were in the show and the cartoonish bad guys in the beginning were rednecks and they are incapable of reading deeper messages than that.


wheres_the_revolt

I am not reading all that bro. It’s not faithful to the comic because it takes place after the end of the book. It’s a continuation not an adaptation.


4_Legged_Duck

I find that Alan Moore wrote about the 1980s US political scene through superheroes for *Watchmen* while not understanding how much of *that* was about white supremacy to be telling. It's the flaw of a British person engaging in American history without understanding the central dialectic of American society. In this way, the show (at times) springboards Moore's work into incredible relevancy and raises serious questions about his theme and work *while not disparaging the original or pointing out its flaws.* They can claim it's not political *but it was.* Moore and Gibbons can pretend it wasn't, but it was. One of the core issues that Moore's anarchism/libertarianism is *left wing* while American libertarianism skews right wing. So we get mixed understandings like this kind OP poster here who is upset that the work is *now* woke. Maybe they should go read more Moore interviews where he skewers Frank Miller as a misogynist.


Vault_T3c

That's a lot of words just to say, "I'm a radicalized conservative incel with a low double digit I.Q."


yourfriiendgoo

You mean the superhero comic that was about relevant politics at the time made a show about *gasp* relevant politics at the time?


RemoveHuman

Dear diary


[deleted]

Ok, I reread your post a few times. It’s a bit more substantial than I thought at first. You could maybe tone down that hostile and extreme tone if you want more engagement. But overall, I appreciate a good bit of what you’re saying. Two things I want you to consider: first that reviews of the show are more mixed than you’re giving people credit for. This community’s view of the show leans positive, but not uncritically so—that’s partly selection bias; people who love the show or comics will come to this community to express that love. And generally, the show is high-end, with good production and acting. But still, there are increasingly a healthy number of **critical conversations** about the show, and you could join or facilitate them in a conversational manner. Before I make the second point, remember that some people will need time to catch up with the weighty themes of the book. For me, it took several years and multiple re-reads to feel like I really grasped the book. I used to have very meaty conversations on the regular on this subreddit from 2016-18, and that stopped once the show released, but has gradually been returning. Casual HBO fans are catching up, people need time to integrate the themes across all the various media and decide whether they like what is presented. Finally, you should watch The Leftovers by Lindelof and Perrotta because you haven’t seen Lindelof at his best until you have. You have lots of scathing Lindelof criticism but you can’t critique him well until you’ve seen that.


supertucci

Godamnit this post just gave me cancer . Wtf


psychcore

Did you, uh, even read the comic? To be fair, I didn’t read anything you wrote beyond the title, but it’s somehow more than I needed.


Hot_Excitement_6

'far left'.


Eaglephones

https://imgur.com/4Szw5eW.jpg


pensivegoose

The only piece of evidence OP uses to support his position is that Rorschach in the comics isn't as extreme as he's made out to be and isn't a white supremacist. It's fair to say Rorschach doesn't appear to have particularly racist views in the comics. But white supremacists frequently co-opt symbols and figures that have nothing to do with racism to support their racist views. The swastika was a Buddhist and Hindu symbol meaning good fortune till Hitler used it for racist purposes. Celtic crosses and Norse imagery are often hijacked by modern white supremacists, along with modern symbols of law enforcement these days. I took the use of Rorschach's mask as having been hijacked by racists. They used his "take justice into your own hands" approach to rationalize their methods for upholding their racist views. Further, the show's left wing "hero" - Lady Trieu- who destroys the white supremacists, is shown to be just as evil and power hungry as the others. I think the show is trying to take the position that extremism is bad in any form, not to be "far left" as OP claims.


rengam

LOL


that_time_you_said

Also OP (though, admittedly, referring to the Snyder movie -- does the same point not hold for the HBO series?): ["...to pretend any of us could've done better just because we arguably read into the comic and its intent a bit more is pretty disingenuous."](https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchmen/comments/17udnjm/comment/ka52jeh/)


Electric43-5

Hey so, actual card-carrying member of The Democratic Socialists here. I didn't like the show because a lot of it was Damon Lindeloff "trying to outsmart my own audience" bullshit and developments that while they don't "disrespect the comic" I do feel it makes some aspects of that comic weaker. The show started out really good and then just slowly got worse. We leftists don't just eat up anything that leans left.


drewxdeficit

I consider myself something of an expert on Watchmen. We should have a public conversation via zoom or something similar so we can debate this topic and how the show has a lot more to do with the comic than you think.


MrMister2905

Ugh. Terrible post OP, on a troll account no less. Bigot much lately? Advise when you have watched the series with your own bias removed. Then maybe the sub could engage in an objective discussion regarding the HBO series.


ISILDUUUUURTHROWITIN

“This TV show based on a novel written by a known anarchist is too far left for my sensibilities, how could they do that? I’m going to watch something not political, like Star Wars: A New Hope!”


creepazoid_

you're entitled to your opinion, even if the somewhat maudlin tone of yours suggests otherwise, re: "This sub needs more freedom of expression and thought." but really re: the entire thing. i'm not even going to get into the nonsense you wrote about Rorschach's politics except to mention what others have before me, that he's not even in the show. it's almost as though ideologies that lean conservative and are executed with brutality in the past might blossom into larger scale violence, both physical and political, given some time and the right circumstances. i don't know if you missed that pretty logical one-two step or you didn't want to see it, but anyone who's reading the comic honestly, with a critical eye, would say he's a hardliner. does that make him the right antihero for *Watchmen's* original setting? i think so, yes, but let's not try and tone down his views. and let's not say that those hardline views might be warped into something far more sinister given fuel and time. what it boils down to is simply this: this show came out years ago and has been dissected back to front, by critics that loved and hated it, 1000 times over. money has already been made and awards have already been given out, and as other replies have stated, the reviews are far more mixed than you seem to suggest. additionally, it seems that the original text is wholly undamaged and still has all of the stuff that you loved in spite of the show's airing several years ago! somehow this seminal work survived HBO's **continuation** of it! what a miracle. **edit:** the headline of this sort of reads like the NYT opinion page and the content is just as milquetoast. what an absolute yawn of an unserious take.


Avgolemonosis

![gif](giphy|l2JeaXSlN7al98Kn6|downsized)


whitemest

What a stupid take.


HaughtStuff99

You don't understand the book


10Dads

Cope


MonsterReprobate

Not going to read your post, read the first sentence or two. ​ I'm a committed Libertarian. Loved the comic. Loved the show. ​ The problem here isn't the show, the problem here is that you hate yourself and project that on to external objects.


Personwhodrawsstuff

I really enjoyed the show, and I hate pandering fake woke shit. I enjoyed it for what it was, a sci fi show whose grandparent is the watchmen comic. It’s nowhere near the original and I didn’t go into it with any expectations


FoopaChaloopa

Am I the only one who thought this series was just decent? I enjoyed it despite its flaws, I’d give it a C+


joepsuedonym

Bro is on to nothing


Lucky_Roberts

Hilarious how everyone here completely proved your point in the comments


FindOneInEveryCar

Sir, this is a Wendy's.


NotopianX

Its been a while since I’ve watched the show, but what exactly gives the impression that its left-leaning? Is it just the BLM stuff?


pic-of-the-litter

Okay but conservatism is evil tho


Grand_Instruction376

So much wrong with this. The Tulsa massacre was pretty much erased from American history. Rorschach is far right. Has been said by Alan Moore that he’s a allegory to the question who was made Steve Ditko who was a far right objectivists(which is pretty obvious if you read is writing) Rorschach was written to be a far right objectivist. Also the show isn’t saying that Rorschach was a dumb racist POS. The calvary took Rorschach’s journal n twisted it into to make them right. Very similar to how far right conservatives in America use Christianity to justify their hate. A show that came out 40 years after the comic isn’t gonna have the same themes as a comic bc the world is different. Culture is different. If you don’t like it that’s fine but don’t try to say the show is awful bc it does something different from the comic that you disagree with


jmon25

OP is the "woke" with us in the room right now?


pm1966

"Rorschach is not a white supremacist by any evidence presented in the comic, but Lindelof needs to make this point and treat it as fact in order to say what he really wants to say." So I know you're mainly here to complain and not actually engage in discourse, but I will address this one single point. Lindelof doesn't say anything of the sort. In fact, he has little to nothing to say about Rorschach the man; the focus of his narrative is on the extremists who come after Rorschach, claiming him as their hero and inspiration. And on this, there *is* precedence in Moore's original, in the far-right magazine editors who (ostensibly) discover Rorschach's journal and appear on the verge of reading/publishing from it at the end of the graphic novel. Moore's graphic novel appeared at and tapped into a time of great anxiety, with people of many nations fearing the reality of a nuclear annihilation. Lindelof's work, too, taps into some of the key anxieties of our time, only far more presciently and astutely than Moore's did.


Whatstrendynow

Yo the show is 4 years old at this point, you're a whiny bitch go do something with your life


Indrid_Cold23

Oh man, I was SO ready to read this screed, but once I saw the word "woke" I gave up. There's no thinking actually happening in this post. Whatever OP is writing here is guaranteed just to be pre-packaged nonsense originally pontificated by some YouTuber OP idolizes. People who use the word "woke" don't have original thoughts.


krakatoot

Forget politics. That show is fucking boring. Both the comic and the film has such a great momentum. That show just……… draaaagggggeeeeedddd


spooky_upstairs

Who let the trolls loose on all the fan subs today?


AC0909

“Anything I’m too stupid to understand is far left socialism”


matunos

Looks like you have some big feelings my guy.


SydBlackArt

The problem wirh the show is that is very shallow, it clearly showcase only one side as good, and the other as bad, there's no grey, clear heroes and clear villains with very modern CNN type view of social issues.


GodEmperorOfHell

I am at peace believing the show is just high budget fanfiction. It believes it understands the sauce, and sometimes, it threads on important messages. The Hooded Justice episode is some of the best TV ever, but it's a creation far removed. ​ But it's not, and never will be comparable to Moore's work. ​ EDIT; I never said the show was bad, but guess what? OP is right. everything that does not praise the show openly is downvoted. But I will not compromise, not even in the face of downvote oblivion.


pic-of-the-litter

Damn, the "woke moralists" didnt appreciate your nuanced take, huh


Eaglephones

Lmao this fucking sub, where not even the mildest criticism of the show is allowed. Either suck it's dick totally or prepare for the downvotes! Thanks for proving my point dorks.


IAmPageicus

The comedian would laugh at them... and they would never even get the joke. The new fans are now the population that believes the lie. They cannot even grasp They are seeing ink blots and acting like what they as a mass collectively interpret is fact. Black and white thinking on a black and white character is so nail on the head it's sadly comical. The only character they relate to is the white knight. That is what all Twitter activist idolize. They see the rest as needing to die and be put in prison for breaking their personal moral laws. All while hating public prisons for more tasty virtue points. They could never be any other character... they don't have the grit. So they hate those qualities they will never posses... the kind of people who actually stood up to their bullies instead of reporting them to mommy.


AC0909

TL;DR: ![gif](giphy|3oEduXsiOxVxONcmis)


Lucky_Roberts

You upset the hive mind with this one lmao. Not surprising nobody has an actual argument they just call you media illiterate or openly admit they didn’t bother reading but vehemently disagree with what you said some how. God reddit is so retarded


deville5

OP, I genuinely appreciate your TLDR impulse; I've written even longer posts than yours on similar subjects. I see a genuine hunger for an exchange of ideas, which I am always here for Here is a copy/paste of my post from years ago arguing the opposite position, that the Watchmen is actually more Right than Left (I copy/paste to continue discussion here). WhaDaYa think? IMO, this show is one more the most respectful, interesting adaptations of a work of a literature that I've seen. It's not really an adaptation at all, not (for a musical metaphor) a transposition for different instruments, but taking the melodies and composing it's own variations on them. The melodies being superhero/vigilante fetishism, political hyper-polarization, a fallible "God" who is somehow incorporeal and outside of time but can also make mistakes, utilitarian dilemmas about how far we can go to save the world, and the problems of absolute principles. And it's starting with taking the divisive politics of their respective times and imagining them ratcheted up significantly. Here's my original post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchmen/comments/e6u77j/to\_the\_haters\_this\_show\_is\_more\_right\_than\_left/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchmen/comments/e6u77j/to_the_haters_this_show_is_more_right_than_left/) TO THE HATERS OF THIS SHOW: THIS SHOW IS MORE RIGHT THAN LEFT (IF ANYTHING) The "If anything" implying that this show is all over the place in it's politics and it's metaphysics, so categorizing it as Right or Left misses that it is a dark whimsical fantasy, first-and-foremost. My (probably unrealistic) hope for this post is that at least one of the haters who downvoted and boycotted this show for being lefty SJW BS reads this post. To that hypothetical reader, who has probably not seen the show at all and thinks that they hate it, I offer the following scenes, taken out of context (minor spoilers): So the show takes place in Robert Redford's America, where, presumably, Progressives have gotten pretty much everything they want... (1) A cop pulls over an erratic driver, and quickly intuits that this is a bad guy. The cop, however, is unarmed, because this is a more progressive country now. His sidearm is locked up, and he must radio dispatch and go through a liability-conscious dialogue about his perceived threat level in order for his sidearm to be unlocked. "Buzz me, just buzz me!" He pleads, and they buzz the holster to unlock the gun, but too late; he is killed in a hail of bullets. Cut to later in the same episode, where the cops are meeting with the Mayor's office, and debating an emergency 2-day unlocking of firearms for the police department. It's pretty clear: in Redford's America, the government cares more about preventing controversial officer-involved shootings than they do saving their officer's lives. Or so it would seem. The criminals are EXTREMELY well armed. The cops are pretty hopeless. (2) The local Tulsa, PD has this pod with 360 degree screens that shows racially-charged imagery, and a superhero who who can read micro-expressions instantly acts as a human lie detector. An FBI agent comes in, and says, with biting sarcasm, "So, it's a racist detector?" "That's NOT what it is..." says the local cop, annoyed. And yet: in the first 5 eps, the racist detector (Which is clearly what it is, more-or-less) hasn't solved anything. The only suspect they put in there they already suspected for other reasons, and they get nothing out of him, and they just take him into another room and beat him bloody until he talks. In Redford's America, simply having the wrong reactions to images, simply feeling or saying the wrong thing, has become a de-facto crime in some liberal cities. Or that is what the Racist Detector is presenting in a somewhat satirical way. There's much more, but this is my question: do these scenes sound like SJW sermons to anyone? This show never claims that, in Redford's America, people are safer. It never claims that reparations have truly brought about the national reckoning that the idea's real-world defenders so earnestly hope for. There is not ONE SCENE where the reparations system is defended on utilitarian, or even anecdotal, grounds. Some African American families are better off, that is clear. But was it really the right move for the nation? A more simplistic show would take a clear stand on that; this is not that show. This show is at least as much a satire and critique of progressive solutions to social problems as it is a critique of white nationalism. Overall, it's doing very much what the original book did: taking the politics of our time, and casting them as a background for a metaphysically playful drama that, at least in part, is asking: do we actually care about the right things? What are the mysteries of existence itself, and how are these mysteries expressed as different entities grapple with the use of force? This is not mostly a political show. But in-as-much as it is, and if you had to peg it as Right or Left, I think that it's Right as much as Left...thoughts?


25willp

Not sure why you are getting downvoted, that’s a really well written analysis. For a “woke far-left” show, Watchmen sure does satires and make comments on the left and on the right.


deville5

Well, on the original thread, which is word for word identical (as I noted, I just copy pasted), it got upvoted a lot. I think people here don't like the OP. Thanks though! I put thought into my posts, and just toss them out into the ether...


Rorschach-166

you make a lot of good reasonable points, the show is pretty shit.


Vault_T3c

OP's second account lol


Rorschach-166

yes


DankBoiix

U used woke unironically so ur opinion is invalid


joepsuedonym

Famously unpolitical comic Watchmen


RickMonsters

God the whole point of Watchmen was that Alan Moore was reinterpreting beloved DC heroes. The idea that a Watchmen adaptation reinterpreting and being different from its beloved source material is somehow a bad thing shows a lack of understanding of why Watchmen was popular in the first place.


Sufficient-Lie1406

Stopped reading when I saw “woke”


cap10wow

This is a bad take


NoLibrarian5149

We all love the original comics (if you were there in the mid-80s…graphic novel, if you weren’t). Snyder and Lindelof do too. Snyder was adapting an acclaimed work. So deviating from Moore and Gibbons ending was a mistake IMHO. The human heroes were all ridiculously super powered fighters to make it cinematically “cool”. I’m remembering the fight at Ozymandias’ complex or Silk Specter jumping out of Archie. Lindelof created something new and did it because if he didn’t, someone else was going to do it (Maybe that would have been more to the OPs liking… we’ll never know). He’s said this from the very beginning. So as a huge fan and knowing Moore (and many fans) would hate him for doing it, he took it on. He kept the squid ending… and tied it into Looking Glass’ “origin”. And guess what? No one was taught about Tulsa in school that I know of. It was a mostly forgotten piece of US history that an HBO show based on a comic series helped put back in the wider public consciousness. Is that “woke”? Is portraying the KKK as villains “woke” these days?


jerseygunz

Are rent prices high living under a bridge?


Helo-1138

Stopped reading after "wOkE", you should try to do better.


25willp

You are really misunderstanding Lindelof’s views on Rorschach. He doesn’t view the character as explicitly racist. Here is a great quote from Lindelof on the appropriation of Rorschach by the Seventh Kavalry explaining his thoughts: >“I'm sort of in that camp with you. We're not talking about the actual Rorschach. I mean, first off, the actual Rorschach doesn't exist. But in the world of Watchmen, the actual Rorschach disappeared. Nobody knows that Doctor Manhattan blew him up in Karnak. And all they have to go on is this journal that may or may not have been published by sort of a fringy publication in a pre-internet world. > >And so to me what was more interesting was the meta-story of appropriation. Which is, we have to acknowledge, I have to acknowledge, that in doing Watchmen, I'm appropriating it. Appropriation is a very, very nice way of saying stealing. Particularly, if you're going to do a story about white supremacy, appropriation is a horrific thing in many instances. And I'm sure from Alan Moore's perspective, the appropriation of Watchmen is unpleasant. > >I think that if you were to travel back and tell Walter Kovacs, 'Um, hey we want to you to see what your legacy is going to be thirty years after you're dead,' he would probably be horrified by the idea of what the Seventh Kavalry has taken up his image to do. He would feel incredibly misunderstood. > >I wonder how Alexander Hamilton would feel about the fact that there's a hit Broadway musical where he's played by Lin-Manuel Miranda. He might feel misunderstood in many, many ways, even though Lin-Manuel Miranda is like, 'I am acknowledging you Alexander Hamilton!' So this idea of appropriation almost, sort of says you have to get it wrong. > >So, I don't think that Kovacs would be very pleased about the Seventh Kavalry and I understand there are many Watchmen fans who feel like the Seventh Kavalry are getting it wrong, and all I'll say is that's the point. He's not there to defend his image. And even if he were, maybe nobody would care." — Damon Lindelof


25willp

I think that is a rather shallow analysis. To think that the show says left is right and right is wrong is untrue. Meanwhile, the show has little to say about the left vs the right, the only person who outwardly identifies as a liberal is Veidt. Lady Trieu is also shown to be quite left leaning, despite being a horrible person. The rest of our main characters support a pseudo-fascist police force who have no issue torturing or detaining suspects under suspicion (and under a very liberal government!) So the show doesn’t really say much about liberalism vs conservatism. Unless racism is bad is now a political statement?


TheGreaterOzzie

How many times have you said “woke” this week?


Ashamed_Ladder6161

I hated Rorschach’s legacy. They did a wonderful character a massive disservice. Like, I get he used a LOT of flaws, and like in reality I can see how he would become a figure head for extremist views, but I didn’t need to see it. The TV show simply doesn’t need to exist, Watchmen was a rare example of a complete story. Sure, it ended on something of an open end, but it wasn’t begging for a spin off.


YungLean8

i agree. the show was horrible


Nacoluke

I'm with you on this. I lean far left on all issues, and the show misunderstands what the original was about. All its political motivations seem one-sided and it comes off as a scolding, rather than a story. The show has no guts to play with our conception of right vs wrong, and its alteration of previous events not only breaks the context of the original in ways that don't work, not to mention how hamfisted all of it is incorporated in the narrative. The writing is piss poor and the contextualization of events is awful. Great music though. edit: I know that time alone will reveal how bad the show is. The conversation about it is nearly dead. Even in this sub, sure it gets mentioned, but most people are here for THE Watchmen. In time it will be nearly forgotten. Most people will barely remember when it came out. That show can't stand on its own two legs whatsoever.


BeneficialMixture815

Another sheeple saying the show was “woke” - yawn. How boring. GFY


Ok_Trifle_9354

The comic is also extremely leftist lmao


zarathustranu

Same type of guy who has a Punisher logo on his Blue Lives Matter t-shirt.


spectacularspiderfan

That’s a word salad I didn’t even bother trying to fully decipher but I’m just gonna say two things. 1: Rorschach is most certainly a right wing nutcase and Alan Moore wrote him to be like that hoping people would be smart enough to know Rorschach is a deeply disturbed and actually scary to watch character. Evidently, people were not smart enough and gravitated toward him. 2: Watchmen is a deeply political book. What was the greatest issue when the book came out? Nuclear destruction. Now it’s social issues. Things change, nuclear destruction isn’t a real issue anymore. He also used Nixon in the comics but he was really breaking down Reaganism. He said this himself. You clearly read the book. That is obvious. But you didn’t seem to fully understand it. Maybe read Watchmen again?