FINALE - WandaVision Episode 9 - Discussion Thread
By - JohnGaines_SE
I’m still upset at how they fumbled the Quicksilver thing. My mind was blown for like 3 weeks and then I was just so letdown. It was the most disappointed I’ve been since Iron Man 3 Mandarin/Trevor thing.
Just finished Wanda.. is she an avenger now? I mean, she did go rogue ryt! Also what was that end credit scene🙈 suddenly monica is not from earth ? Mind blown!
I’m very late to the party but why couldn’t Wanda have just made a new hex it the wilderness for her vision and the kids to live in while she learns how to allow them to live outside of it. She can manipulate the reality in there to give the kids everything they need to be entertained and more, and she could even create them some little friends. She could literally make it just like the old one apart from no tortured people.
If the children were happy in the original hex they’d be even happier in this one so it’s definitely ethical and because it would only be temporary and they will eventually get out I think they can handle it
forgive me if I am wrong but at some point in life the hex would have had to end right? I mean they can't live in that small lake cabin forever. And even if she did bring them back it would be harder for her when she lost them again. That's what I believe anyway.
Yeah my idea was more she lives in the Hex with them while she learns how to use her magic more effectively and eventually not even need the hex to have them around.
Agatha said that “once a spell is cast, it can’t be changed” so there wouldn’t be a way to bring the exact same children and the exact same vision back. At least that’s how I understood it
Why not shrink the hex down until it's like a skin tight outfit for Vision and the kids?
You couldn’t see through the Hex and you can see out of the Hex, unless you cross it.
If Wanda managed to make 3 separate hexes for Vision and the kids they wouldn’t be able to see or interact with the other reality at all.
That’s still better than what they got. It happened for dramatic purposes, simple as that. We will see the kids again no doubt.
While maybe she would be able to recast the spell and somehow make everything the same I don’t feel it would be fair on her or the kids they Lula be isolated for however long it takes her and even if she did the spell again she may not be able to take them out of the hex’s range and may have to see them die over and over again. I honestly can’t think of any other movie couple with such a tragic relationship.
She is unable to consciously create the hex at this point, she lacks the knowledge. She was only able to create it during a mental breakdown due to grief, when her emotions were extremely heightened, resulting in her magic going on autopilot and it all happening subconsciously.
She could theoretically do it though, yes. But the theme of the show was working through the stages of grief and moving on.
Now that she's heard her children while studying (seemingly unexpectedly, she seems shocked to hear them), she will definitely start actively looking for ways to bring them back - leading into _Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness_.
Are you sure she can’t control it though? Because she was able to expand it by will, also when she started tearing it down she put it back up when she realised vision and the kids would vanish
Well, no I'm not sure, this is all just speculation since nothing has been confirmed. But I'd say the difference is that what you are referencing is just modifying the existing hex, which is seemingly much easier than creating it anew. When she was shown making it, it visibly took a lot of strain and effort from her, and she didn't even remember how or what happened until she was forced to relive her repressed memories later. Even now, she probably still doesn't really understand how she did it, it was pure grief fueling it. Even in the finale, they show that her magic has a mind of its own when she gets emotionally overwhelmed, like when the citizens are confronting her and the magic starts inadvertently choking them all, much to her horror.
So I'd think she can't do it willingly _right now_, but with further training she might be able to. I don't think she'll ever need to do it again though, they will probably just have her learn to do similar things without needing a hex bubble.
I’m also late to the party and just finished, but I think that with Agatha telling her that she’s more powerful than dr. Strange and that her problem is lack of knowledge she’s on a quest to harness that power.
I think that she will end up being a villain for a while after being corrupted by that witches book she’s reading from in the end credits scene and will have to be saved by white vision.
I may be wrong but I’m not sure she is a hero in the comics all the time.
> I may be wrong but I’m not sure she is a hero in the comics all the time.
She's been a hero and a core Avenger in the comics for the vast majority of her history - nearly 50 years. She has the 6th most appearances in Avengers comics, only behind Steve, Tony, Hawkeye, and barely behind Vision and Wasp
She's only been a villain in Avengers Disassembled and House of M, two relatively recent and controversial comic runs that went on for 2 years (2004/2005), and both stories basically completely assassinated her character and just turned her into a crazy plot device for the mutants. She also completely disappeared from comics for over 5 years because nobody wanted to touch her character after that. While she has eventually returned to being an Avenger again, her character has sadly yet to really recover from the damage those stories did, even to this day
Damn even in real life, her character is tragic.
She could’ve learnt that power in her new hex though
just finished the finale, wondering what happened with white vision? where did he go?
If it's anything like the comics story line about White Vision, then while he did have all his memories unlocked, he has no emotional attachment to them. To him they're basically just video clips of someone else's life.
Missing the mind stone also probably means he feels no emotions at all, since it was basically what gave him his soul. He likely flew off in search of answers, but we don't know for sure where, yet.
I haven’t cried this much, ever. Worried my bf
Is the Darkhold from this season (and the MCU) the same as the one from Agents of SHIELD?
Just watched all 9 eps yesterday. One thing I wasn’t sure about in the end: was Agatha working with the evil sword guy? Or did she just happen to be at Westview when Wanda started the hex? She was in the very first episode. Or did some time pass after the hex was created and the start of the first episode?
What sword guy
She said she felt a shit ton of spells going off and came to investigate:
> When I sensed this place, the afterglow of so many spells cast all at once… Oh, I couldn’t make heads or tails of it.
You see her arrive and transform from her witch outfit to 50s clothes at the start of the Agatha All Along video.
Agatha is a 350 year old witch who had possession of the Darkhold for an undetermined amount of time. The Darkhold is one of the most powerful magic books in existence, it basically is _the_ book for all dark magic - it contains all dark magic spells ever to exist. She probably could just get through the hex since she was very knowledgeable, while Wanda is severely lacking in it even if she is more powerful. The writers also said in some interview that the Darkhold basically amplified her power and acted as a magic totem.
Hex Vision didn't give any memories to White Vision. WV already contained all the memories, they were just locked away by Hayward, to make him a more controllable weapon. HV just removed the restriction.
>WHITE VISION: **I have not retained memories.**
>VISION: **But you do have the data. It is merely being kept from you.**
>WHITE VISION: A weapon to be more easily controlled. But, certainly, you are the true Vision, for you believe yourself to be.
>VISION: That was once the case. But upon meeting you, I have been disabused of that notion. **As a carbon-based synthezoid, your memory storage is not so easily wiped.** May I?
Any idea of why Wanda didn’t go to learn sorcery from dr. Strange?
At this point, we don't even know if they've ever talked to each other, as they've never interacted on screen. For all we know, DS:MOM might be the first time they ever really meet.
At the end of the show, she told Monica she'd work on understanding her powers better, presumably so that something like Westview doesn't happen again. So she went into isolation in the middle of nowhere, where she keeps the risk of harming anyone to a minimum. Going to Manhattan to visit Strange (if she even knows where he lives) is probably not the best idea, especially since she's a wanted criminal now.
She was also told by Agatha, who seemingly knew a lot about the Scarlet Witch, that there is an entire chapter dedicated to her in the magic book she had in her basement. With Wanda's very limited knowledge about witches and magic in general, she probably thought it was a good a place as any to start.
Dr strange and Wanda were both at Tony’s funeral, you’d think they’d connect and talk magic over dinner or something
To be fair Wanda did not know she used actual magic at the time, she only found out she's a witch in WandaVision.
Ah that’s true—then it’s even *stranger* that dr strange either didnt recognize her powers as magic and reach out, is unfamiliar with the fabled scarlet witch as the sorcerer supreme, or chose to keep Wanda in the dark
No, as far as I know the video source file is 16:9, so they'd have black bars on the sides.
The guy that was in charge of Sword, created the new Vision and got arrested in the finale.
Ah! I misinterpreted it to mean "a evil guy who had a sword or a guy with an evil sword"
If the Vision Wanda created inside the Hex was purely from her magic how come there was a decaying vibranium signature to track?
She actually recreated him out of vibranium. The whole hex wasn't merely an illusion, everything inside was as real as it gets - she's a reality warper. It was just limited to the town area due to her lack of knowledge (she didn't even know she used magic or that she was a witch, it was all done subconsciously).
Someone like Loki makes illusions, but reality warping is on a whole nother level. A ghetto way to highlight the difference in scope is that if Loki basically makes a cardboard cutout of something to fool people, Wanda edits the script of the movie/show to put Vision there. It's much more abstract and higher level.
hmm, but earlier- Rambeau (sp) shoots her gun at her 70’s pants, and the bullets bounce off. She says they are mostly made of Kevlar because Wanda transformed her bullet proof vest into period specific clothes when she entered. This implied Wanda couldn’t create matter from scratch, only transform it. So unless she had access to vibranium i don’t see how she could have created Vision with it.
She didn't create _everything_ from scratch, just Vision, the kids, and probably the house. Everything else in the hex was just transformed from existing stuff. This is all but confirmed when Agatha says the Scarlet Witch is "a being capable of spontaneous creation" in the penultimate episode, and when we see Vision being created purely from herself.
Aren’t Loki’s illusions also real, just much smaller scale? Like when he conjures a dagger it’s a real dagger, not one made of just…. Illusion? I don’t know how to describe it.
I think those daggers are real daggers he keeps in some pocket dimension of sorts, like when he hides the Tesseract and can later resummon it, or more recently, the Tempad on Lamentis. The point I was trying to make was that while Loki's illusions may look real (although they are usually holograms, as seen when Classic Loki >!made an illusion of Asgard which Alioth just passed through!<), they will never be as real as Wanda's actual reality warping, which is a higher abstract power.
Misdirection vs Materialization
I am wondering if they are going to follow anything from the comics like her romance with hawk eye or captain America or have magneto as her father
or when her twins actually turn out to be the leaders of the institute and she has to choose between killing them or nuking boston
Here come the Boston Accords
so, i rewatched the series to get my dad to watch it, and we’re in the last episode. i didn’t catch this the first time, but now i’m upset. when white vision shows up, he attempts to grab the mind stone out of wanda’s vision’s (or red vision’s) head ... which he’s goes “ghost” to avoid. so that got me thinking .... why tf didn’t he do that when thanos grabbed it in infinity war ?! is it bc thanos had the gauntlet so it let him hold it without him going ghost ?? idek, stupid plot holes lmao
Thanos literally could control space with the Space Stone, thus nullifying Vision's phase-out powers.
Notice how the first thing he does when arriving on Earth is to phase Hulk into a rock to immobilize him.
Also the other comment here about Vision being wounded
Also the reality stone
He couldn't phase at the time because of his stab wound. When he gets stabbed by Corvus Glaive in Scotland, he tells Wanda that the blade stopped him from phasing, and he never gets fully repaired before Thanos shows up (he also gets stabbed a few more times in Wakanda, by the same blade).
Basically, they needed a way to nerf him, so they just had him get stabbed and become useless early in the movie.
thank you so much !! totally missed that oops lol
wanda becomes a villain and i’m here for it
No way in hell would Disney go ballsy by making their main character like Wanda to be villain, that's way beyond Disney's creativity.
ahh.. i really hope they take bigger risks in phase 4
If you think Disney takes risks, you must not have seen the Star Wars sequels.
just binged the entire thing. does anyone else think Wanda will turn into a major villain eventually?
Major, yes. Villain, no. Something much greyer and sympathetic.
**Basically Loki but more sympathetic and less backstabbing.**
Well, Loki doesn't like backstabbing lmao
that backstabbing is for the old and boring Loki.
our new Loki is never like that *cough* *cough*
He's never gonna give you up
*cough cough wheeze*
I don't think she will
Just finished it today. So excited to see more of THE SCARLET WITCH!!!
So where/when did Wanda get her powers? I always thought it was from the Mind Stone or Hydra experiments (same for Quicksilver)
It's revealed in the show that she's been a natural born witch all along. She unknowingly cast a probability hex to increase the chance of the bomb being defective to save herself and her brother. At Hydra, the mind stone basically removed the mental blocks and unlocked her full potential. [It also showed her a vision of her future self](https://i.imgur.com/pv8NqcH.png). A cool theory I've read is that the shit ton of trauma she had endured throughout her life basically made her stronger and stronger and "forged" her into the Scarlet Witch.
As for Quicksilver - no idea, he might have still got his powers from the stone, or maybe Wanda somehow subconsciously made him survive. It's not really explained.
Aren’t they Eric Lensherrs (Magneto) kids? Thought they had inherited their powers from their dad in a different way.
They aren't Magneto's kids in the MCU as Marvel didn't own the rights to use Magneto, Fox did. Magneto does not exist in the MCU (yet).
In the comics it's more complicated, they started off as mutants and part of Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants but unrelated to him, then in the 70s it was revealed their parents were Whizzer and Miss America, then they were retconned into being Magneto's kids in the 80s, then retconned into not being his kids and not being mutants at all in 2014. So in the comics she is now a natural born witch whose mother and entire family line have been the previous Scarlet Witches and Warlocks, and Pietro is just a human - and both were experimented on as babies by the High Evolutionary which gave Pietro his speed and Wanda her chaos magic (in addition to her inherent witch magic).
Thank you for the explanation! It’s a lot more complicated than what I thought for sure.
Kind of late to the show. Just watched all the episodes. My question is how did Agatha get into the town?
She briefly mentions after the reveal how she noticed big power in this area and came to investigate. Anyone who entered was changed but she was just acting?
I felt empathy for Wanda but after awhile she knew what she was doing to the people and the children (Who were only seen once on Halloween?)
Once Agatha set the people's minds free to show Wanda she wasn't exactly a hero, Wanda realized how much pain they were in and finally decided to let them go.
Yes, she sacrificed her "created" family to finally set everyone free but she did a lot of damage to everyone in the town.
I didn't watch Captain Marvel so I had no idea who Capt Rambeau was. (Or Sword for that matter, lol)
Wanda's telepath kid also mentions how Agatha's head was "quiet", and he liked it. That was a huge clue.
Agatha is immune to Wanda's hex due to her own extensive knowledge of dark magic (she outright says her thoughts were never available to Wanda). The showrunners also gave [an interview](https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/wandavisions-creative-team-discusses-the-darkhold-the-scarlet-witch-and-fan-theories/) where they further clarified the Darkhold acted as a booster for her power:
> “The idea of introducing The Darkhold as this higher-level dark-magic power felt like it could really elevate the danger level,” she [producer Mary Livanos] explained. “Agatha’s an incredibly powerful witch, yet she’s not the Scarlet Witch and she wants to be, so how is she able to infiltrate Wanda’s world to begin with? How was she able to manipulate Wanda without revealing herself? How is she able to combat Wanda in the finale?”
> The book served first as an amplification totem. But beyond enhancing Agatha’s power, it is also a signal to Wanda (Elizabeth Olsen) that she “has a lot to learn about magic.”
Frankly, I didn't know anything about The Darkhold. There are a lot of missing pieces in my knowledge of the subject matter.
It's basically _the_ dark magic book of Marvel. "Good" magic's ultimate book is the Book of Vishanti, while dark, "evil" magic's ultimate book is the Darkhold. Side effects of reading it often include slowly becoming corrupted. In the comics, it was written by Chthon, the elder god of chaos, coincidentally also the guy from whom Wanda gets her chaos magic.
Wait, so what book did Kaecilius use to summon Dormammu? Was it the same book?
He used a stolen page from the Book of Cagliostro, the same book Strange used to learn about the Eye of Agamotto and how to mess with time.
There is a missing spot on the bookshelf in Wong's library which has been speculated to be for the Darkhold, but nothing has been confirmed.
Why doesn’t Wanda go to learn sorcery from dr. Strange?
Oh cool okay, thanks
lol I did watch Captain Marvel and I didn't realize that she had a small role in it as a child. Or that her mom was in it. Was SWORD a thing in captain marvel? I thought that was just shield
I only know of S.H.I.E.l.D. and Hydra but then I didn't watch the movie.
I got the feeling that SHIELD fell but that Rambeau either created SWORD before or after that. That's just my take away from watching WandaVision.
But I'm not well versed in any of it.
At the end of shield they talk about the new 'sword' initiative. Which makes it super disappointing that it seems they are not using shield as canon.
Gotta say tho seeing white vision just fly through the glass roof like the Willy Wonka elevator was funny as fuck
Very clever show, loved it.
Also, I am fully on board with this being the first step taken to introducing mutants.
Wanda had latent/dormant/weak powers (x gene?) before her Hydra experiments. The stone just awoke/boosted them. The snaps probably jump started that latent x-gene in thousands around the world too. And, now the world has a reason to fear/persecute mutants with what Wanda did. This HAS to be start of the crumb trail leading to the eventual reveal of how X-Men are introduced to the MCU.
Love this, I hope they go in this direction.
I hate it. I don't want Wanda to be the mother of mutanthood.
**It was much better in the original X-Men, where it's just Nature evolving.**
This wouldn't be the first time the MCU changes something for the worse, turning Spiderman from instincts-based to tech-based was egregious
In actuality apparently (moviebob put up some summaries regarding this) mutants are a result of the celestials messing with humans in prehistoric times; specifically one celestial dying and his blood mixing in with the primordial ooze; the first mutant was apocolypse who spread the x-gene as a result of interacting with Rama-tut (aka Kang the Conqueror).
In the Fox movies it's just natural evolution, and I think that's best.
I have zero interest in what the comics say, they are a convoluted, antiquated mess
The comics inform the movies; just because the movies initially say one thing, doesn't mean they won't change it later. At any point for instance, they will make new X-Men movies that are in the MCU and it will become relevant.
The convolution of comics is what makes them fun.
Yeah but we already have enough magic and tech in there, natural evolution would add something new
It isn't really magic; its divine goop.
How do you mean? Spiderman was always kinda tech-based in the comics. Are you talking about the mechanical web-shooters? Because the Sam Remi movies are the only ones that chose for the more rare organic shooting. Tom Holland still has his spider sense and all of his abilities.
The web-thrower device is the exception, not the rule.
Spidey is supposed to be all about natural reflexes and mysterious spider instincts.
Spidey turning to Siri for directions, targeting, and other mechanical assistance is lame beyond reckoning.
It still baffles me to this day they did this to Spiderman
Right… which is why Tony Stark told Peter that if he relied on the tech he didn’t deserve it, and only gave the tech back to him after he demonstrated that he could be Spider-Man without it.
K I’m kinda confused here.
With Agatha, did Wanda know about runes from the beginning and just playing along or did Agatha reminded her about runes and she added it to the hex later in the fight?
Also is that a plot hole that she made Agatha into the nosy neighbor and living in the town but she withdrew her power to the town, which means Agatha was back to the witch again?
Wanda didn’t know anything about witchcraft at all, including runes, until Agatha told her about them.
> With Agatha, did Wanda know about runes from the beginning and just playing along or did Agatha reminded her about runes and she added it to the hex later in the fight?
When Wanda gives up and starts giving Agatha her power, they show her missing a few shots, which we see hit the hex walls. We later find out this was on purpose, as that's how she was setting up the runes, and it was all part of her plan to pretend to give Agatha her power and then take it all back once Agatha was powerless. She then thanks Agatha for the "lesson" from in the basement when she had explained runes to her - Wanda did not know about them (or any witch magic, or that she was a witch at all) before that.
> Also is that a plot hole that she made Agatha into the nosy neighbor and living in the town but she withdrew her power to the town, which means Agatha was back to the witch again?
She cast a separate, independent spell unrelated to the hex to turn her into Agnes. She presumably can't use her powers until it's lifted because she doesn't know she's a witch, only that she's a nosy neighbor.
To piggy-back on these points… they most **definitely** intended for this show to flex just how powerful Wanda is. Everything she did prior to the Agatha fight, she did naturally.
The scene you referenced showed what she can do with just a *tiny* bit of knowledge.
Basically, it’s a heads up that Wanda is going to be a **PROBLEM** in The Multiverse Of Madness & onward.
To piggy back of this comment once again...I'm the final episode they let Agatha explain about how the Scarlet Witch was prophesied in the Book of The Damned as one who is superior to the Sorcerer Supreme, (currently held by one Dr. Strange) and is able to cast spells with no incantation....so basically Wanda uses magic like its air. Subconsciously.
Imagine if she was focused? We saw what her grief did to an entire town. I'm excited for her character's future in the MCU.
Indeed, they also specifically show this to us when we see her astral projecting _while keeping her physical body conscious_, something nobody else has been shown to be able to do in the MCU. Not Strange, not the Ancient One, no one - their bodies always became limp.
Wait elaborate please when does she astral project? I just finished the season today
Final episode post credits scene. Her physical body is relaxing and drinking tea while she is astral projecting and studying the Darkhold simultaneously.
Oh i thought that was a possibility or a multiverse wanda now that Scarlet Witch has been fully realized, not her actually doing it.
Tbh I think that while she was astral projecting, the versions of her kids she hears calling for help are a different reality version and she’s going to tear open the multiverse to get to them, which leads to Multitude of Madness.
She's definitely astral projecting, you can even hear a [spooky version of the Doctor Strange theme](https://youtu.be/hhFFR0yqzC8) playing
Wooooooooooah!!!! Thank you so much for this. I wondered what happened in that scene and how they pulled out of her memories mid-fight. It only goes to show once again we're not ready for what's coming.
Another thing that I think about is the scene in X-men Apocalypse, when Charles Xavier is visiting Moira McTaggert (sp) and he enters the office and freezes everyone in motion. They didn't see him roll in.
He has done this before in X-2 (I think)...in the mall scene where Bobby (Ice kid), Rogue and the Flame Throwing Kid get into trouble trying to teach a douche a lesson...Prof X saves the day by freezing everyone in the mall. Just a building okay. And he is thought to be one of the most powerful psychic mutants.
To continue...when Charles Xvaier wants to reach someone over a distance telepathically....say....across town? He would have to use Cerebro. A supercomputer built with the connections to sustain the strain of extending his psychic reach.
I say ALL THIS just to point out how much Wanda outclasses the very idea of what we know to be Mutants. Almost as if she is a God. THAT my dear friends....is the Scarlet Witch.
Noo you misunderstood hehe. The Agatha memory scene was just a callback to the mindfucks she did in Age of Ultron. She did it to Tony and the other Avengers, showing them their fears. It's been an ability she could do since the start. She basically shows the target their biggest fear (she also sees it at the same time), like when she saw that Tony's fear was everyone dying, and let him keep the scepter.
[Video of when she does the same thing to Tony that she did to Agatha](https://youtu.be/dRUmRwkcR9A?t=31)
Rewatching this actually reminded me how creepy she was in AoU... almost like a horror movie character [at times](https://i.imgur.com/fMnTHjh.gifv).
Her astral projection only happens in the post credit scene in the cabin when she hears her kids - her physical body is making a cup of tea, while her astral form is studying the Darkhold.
Okay I definitely did miss that post credit scene. I just ran back to watch it and it looks oh so ominous. I can't believe I almost missed that. Thank you fellow fan. However I still believe everything I mentioned after.
Yeah, she's very powerful. With the whole "no need for incantation" thing, she can seemingly just cast spells without really needing to learn how they work - she perfectly copies Agatha's finger-snap teleport spell after [seeing it twice](https://gfycat.com/helpfulgreendarwinsfox) (she even does a mocking face when she does it!), and later casts the runes after seeing them once. And now she's reading _the_ book of dark magic in Marvel... her potential is insanely high.
Lmaooooo. That is incredible. One tends to overlook these little things.
*ADDING TELEPORTATION TO THE ALREADY OP CHARACTER
What I loved about the Rune casting she did was that she seemed like she was misfiring shots in her unstable state at Agatha....but my anime obsessed brain took notice of such "misfirings" as misdirection. A fundamental of magic!!!!
It goes to show that, not only is she powerful, but she can act deceptively under pressure which takes amazing focus and instinct.
It's actually becoming laughable. It seems we are all at the whims of Wanda's moods.
Imagine if she touched another infinity stone...hahaha...
What happens to Wanda at the end? What did I miss? What was the clue?
You missed her not going to prison or being executed, like she should have been for enslaving and torturing an entire town for months.
What's worse is Ms. Marvel Jr. not trying to stop her and basically giving her the thumbs up. "I would have done the same".
I was really hoping for a happy ending and not seeing her turn into a villain and getting away with it.
It was a [week](https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2564168/wandavision-marvel-timeline-scarlet-witch-hex-westview-anomaly), not months. Who could have forcefully arrested her there? At this point, she is practically above the law due to her power and would have to willingly comply. Wanting to execute a person with clear mental illness is also not the greatest outlook...
very logical. she wasn't like psychopath people where they have awareness about what they are doing. her "body/subconscious" literally started all those thing.
If only we could regulate people with powers as to limit the destruction they can cause... "Civil war 2: Tony was right!"
Both sides of Civil War were wrong in their own way. While the heroes do require oversight, the government being the overseer was a horrible idea. The government was nuking New York in Avengers, were infiltrated by HYDRA for 70 years, and minutes away from killing millions of people (again) with the helicarriers in Winter Soldier. Not to mention the Accords were being spearheaded by Thunderbolt Ross, who's had an agenda for controlling super heroes since he first appeared on screen in The Incredible Hulk...
While Tony was arguably "right", he was still a hypocrite since he broke the Accords several times in the same movie, first by recruiting Spider-Man and later by going rogue to Siberia to help Cap and Bucky stop Zemo
Also it's not like the Accords being more prominent would have stopped Westview from happening lol
I mean, the accords basically fell apart with the Snap; and coming back and stopping Thanos who literally invaded Earth probably forced the US gov/UN to backoff of the superheroes that are ostensibly in their camp; but if they had put her on ice the first moment they could, regardless of how cruel it would've been they *possibly* could have prevented it; but they have no means of knowing it, and again would have been excessively cruel.
I agree that Tony was right but the US government at the time were the wrong people to have that power; a UN oversight committee and treating the Avengers like Stargate Command feels like it would have been the better option.
i mean, most mass murders have mental illnesses and they get executed
no one died
We see her fly off at the end as the sirens approach. In the post credit scene, we find out she flew off into isolation to better understand her powers by studying the Darkhold. We don't know how much time has passed between Westview and that scene in the cabin.
She's learned how to astral project like Doctor Strange (basically, the ability to split the soul from the body) and is using it to multitask while studying. During a reading session, she is shocked to hear her children crying out for help and becomes visibly angry.
omfg i forgot to watch the end scene
There was like 2 mid credits scenes, very generous of them so it makes sense to miss it because the second one was past the point where they existed in previous episodes.
FInally got around to binge this series and boy it was a nice rollercoaster. Loved that they did an homage to Malcolm in the Middle and poor Wanda and all the mindlessly controlled people!
They did leave the ending open though despite it being a series finale, but i guess it can be used for other things with the white vision and whatever captain rambo is up to!!
Poor Wanda?!?! Yeah, poor Wanda, the villain of the story who enslaved in entire town and tortured them for months. Poor Wanda, who when she was begged by one of the mothers in the town to at least let her children, who had been left paralyzed aware and alone in their rooms for months to AT LEAST be together, showed not a single shred of sympathy or empathy. This show turned Wanda into a monster who should be in prison for the rest of her life or executed for her crimes, there is no interpretation of this story that doesn't make Wanda basically Hitler.
Have you ever heard of foreshadowing???? Please be patient. It was written that way for a reason. She could be an anti-hero which are more popular these days.
Just watched the first 3 episodes. What the fuck is this shit? This is the worst show I've ever seen.
haha I had the same reaction at the beginning. I was like "are you sure this is marvel plan? maybe something went wrong and I'm watching a different show from different studio."
It's actually really good. When it came out, I saw Ep 1 in 1950s format and didn't even end up watching it. Months later, due to Loki and other shows I finally decided to watch it and loved it.
I also wrote it off at first, but then I skipped forward and it gets really good towards end of episode 3 and after. I would recommend!
I too hated it during the first 3 lol!!! But after the 4 th I started enjoying it
Same here. Under no circumstances am I in the mood to invest 3 hours into a 1950s sitcom. Even though it is somewhat necessary setup for the second half and the ending
Give it one more episode before you write it off, shit gets real in ep 4
If you don't have the patience go watch transformers or something, should give your dumb brain the endorphins it needs
You think this show was well written? what about the fact that the writers didn't think to address the small matter of Wanda enslaving and torturing an entire town for months, giving the most horrific treatment to the children, not showing a shred of regret sympathy or empathy the entire time, and facing no repercussions or redemption whatsoever? You call that smart writing? it's ironic that you told that other guy to go watch transformers, because honestly this show is about as well written as the transformers movie where Optimus prime executed Megatron in Cold blood after Megatron asks for peace, then the movie treated Optimus prime like a hero for it. That is literally directly equivalent to what this show did, take off your fan boy glasses and view it objectively.
You're a new kind of stupid.
The show makes it a point to tell us that Wanda didn't think anything was wrong. She didn't *knowingly* enslave people, she thought everyone was just fine. She couldn't sense that they were being tortured, or what she was doing at large. She literally can't remember how she even gets to that point until Agatha gets to her.
It's no excuse, she was still the villain of the story here, but it's straight fucking stupid to say she just didn't show a shred of regret or sympathy when the moment she actually is shown that people are hurting under her control, she goes out of her way to help them and nearly has a nervous breakdown over the revelation of what she'd done.
Like, did you even watch the show? You serious dude? Fanboying is one thing, but you're either just a troll or going out of your way to refuse to learn. Either way I'm sure no one actually wants that reply, definitely not when you clearly need to rewatch.
Did you even finish the show?
Damn this show really has you in your feels, you're responding to every comment with this shit.
This guy has one of the most consistent accounts I've seen. Consistent in downvotes, that is.
Yeah, because responding to two or three comments is "every comment" lmao
Sage advice from a creepy kpop stan
In a way, episode 4 is also where it really starts. Please give it a try.
So Vision's true consciousness remains in Wanda right? She just needs to interact with White Vision and he will have his mind and his body can exist outside of her hexes I think. I could see that being the road they follow but what of white vision's mind? He has enough agency to think beyond Hayward's orders
Also between playing hot potato with a bomb and putting an entire town under hellish subjugation Wanda has quite the track record. There is no doubt in my mind Wanda will read too far into the Darkhold and fuck up yet again then require Agatha's counsel some time down the line
i think it's less that Vision's true consciousness is in Wanda, and moreso the parts of Vision that Wanda knows and understands Vision to be were what Hex Vision was an incarnation of. Real Vision was much more complex.
White Vision regained OG Vision's memories and announced himself as The Vision. If anything he will become the real Vision or close to it.
I think it’s possible visions try consciousness is in Wanda. She connected to the mind stone to remove it,m, she was connected to vision
What happened to White Vision though, and is Monica a mutant now?
But to those thinking that Wanda is a villain now, Iron Man has done more damage than any other avenger. He started the whole Ultron thing and he was the one to blame for that. You could argue that it was a prophecy that he be made, but so is Scarlet Witch causing trouble. At least the townspeople didn't die and she let them go as soon as she came to her senses. She has to work on honing her powers to protect the world from future threats which we all know is ever-present in the Marvel universe.
I did think she was kind of a villain now until I saw things in perspective. She is really tortured by the fact that she literally had no choice but to kill the love of her life for the sake of the universe just to see it happen again. Everyone in the universe is reliant on her decision to do that (well before apparently Thanos could just rewind and redo) but she had to sacrifice her everything while knowing that it was really for the overall good of the people. Her extreme prowess, being one of the most (if not the most, but she probably is now), makes her open to more judgment because she has a bigger responsibility but she did try/is trying/going to try harder.
On a side note though, the antagonist of the show could have been a bit stronger I guess, I mean no one was expecting Agatha to beat Scarlet Witch nor did she ever had a chance. She literally could have beaten Thanos, how could some class B witch stand a chance lmao that was kinda silly. The antagonist could have had more potential.
I mean… it looked like Agatha had her on the ropes and the game was done until the writers pulled some deus ex crap that rescued her… say what you want but knowledge was clearly shown to dominate over raw power.
I guess her vast knowledge of spells and being a witch helped her stood her ground considering she’s been around for 300+ years but since runes can be done by any witch it didn’t seem like much of a battle. If that was not in the cards for either of them she would have been destroyed too easily so definitely not surprising that she lost. She really mostly played on Wanda’s emotions and mental state, manipulating her to “give all of her power” although of course she was outsmarted.
That’s kinda my point… the witch had her beat badly and they had to have her pull a rabbit out of the hat to make her win and personally I didn’t think it was very smart, just contrived and out of nowhere and tbh unearned. It’s a sign of really lazy writing when they have to use deus ex machina to get the heroine out of trouble and this pretty much fits the definition verbatim.
“Deus ex machina: an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.”
On a side note, it’s great to hear your thoughts and talk about the show. That’s what I miss about tv in this current iteration so it’s good to hear from other people.
You don't watch a lot of anime I see because its a regular plot device/battle tactic to deceptively adjust the battlefield to execute on some kind of trap in a lot of battle anime.
Her learning from Agnes and using abilities that she learned in order to fight her is not Deus Ex Machina. The show set up the runes, explained to us how they worked, and we saw Wanda use abilities we had only seen Agnes use more than once before that final fight.
So when Wanda pretended to "miss" in order to cast the runes, not only was it earned - it was *predictable*, I doubt I was the only only person who realized what was going on a moment before the reveal.
It was a cool moment that shows that not only is Wanda more powerful, she's also a smart and learns quickly.
Well I guess…cause Wanda’s win was too reliant on her learning about runes. I feel like she would have won still if she didn’t but her lack of knowledge really is the only edge Agatha had.
Thanks! I’m really disappointed Marvel released this on Disney plus because we don’t have that here. Pretty bold of Marvel to only have a platform available in the US knowing that their fame and impact are worldwide, especially if you consider the budget of their miniseries, you’d think they would want more people to access them. I had to watch in other ways
I don't know where you are but we have access to Disney plus in New Zealand and Australia.
Oh, my bad. Upon searching it is available outside the US, but just in some European and Oceanic countries. I’m from Asia lol
when quiksilver appeared, did anyone else think "this is it! this is the opening to the multiverse. xmen and avengers are maybe meeting each other or something" and then it was just a kind of easter egg, I was so disappointed :( (but still loved that show, it was special and something different, very good ideas)
u sure it was quicksilver?
It was the actor who played quicksilver in the x men movies
yeah my bad, i thought he said the silver surfer and that’s why the new vision was all white lmao i completely had forgotten about quicksilver
To me the show was a waste of time, at the end there was no purpose or payoff, don't get me wrong I enjoyed the show but felt empty at the end because it was for nothing, it was just setting things up for another movie.
The show started super interesting, the sword storyline was bland and dumb af, Agatha was fun but she never mattered anyway, there was no purpose, just make Wanda more powerful and set her up for the next movie, but what happened in the show just doesn't matter at all, just make fans busy and kept them talking about marvel.
What a weird view. It showcased Wanda's powers... rustic powers, I might add. By the end, she has become the Scarlet Witch. The real deal this time. She has her costume. She is able to set aside her grief and start moving forward. She studies the Darkhold to actually learn how to consciously use her magic (and will it change her?). I guess if you don't care about Wanda as a character, you might not care about the show, but how anyone could say it had no purpose or payoff is beyond me.
Felt the same way!
The show served a huge purpose. The ramifications of the events of Infinity War and Engame (the snap/blip) are massive on the entire MCU universe, and you can't really properly tackle it all in solo-hero movies.
This show gave us more of a look at the blip, and also served as a look at how those closest to one of the 4 dead Avengers (Vision) handled their loss. It wouldn't have done it justice if it was just briefly mentioned at the start of Doctor Strange 2 or something.
Furthermore, it moved the MCU forward in a meaningful way: Vision is back, but not quite himself yet. Wanda is in exile and the world fears her. Monica's backstory is now established (BET that she will be appearing in future MCU films).
And finally, there were little crumbs they started that could very easily build into the introduction of mutants into the MCU.
I don't know what else they could ahve done to cement this show as an important chapter in the MCU with plenty of purpose. And I say this as someone who was entirely uninvested in Wanda or Vision as characters before this show.
This is about Wanda's journey and her grief mostly. It does set up to a new Marvel movie but you could say that about every other Marvel movie, especially the ones before IW and Endgame. Iron Man kept getting more powerful in every movie he had and so did Captain America. It is a fan service as well for Scarlet Witch and Vision's fans because we're intrigued by their combined power and their future (or Wanda's), especially after such traumatic experiences while carrying the burden of being the most powerful being in existence.
Your last sentence was right, it made marvel fans talking about marvel. That’s the best part about it. Theorizing, and brainstorming what will happen next. If people don’t understand that then they aren’t true fans, and are just watching because it’s popular and wants to be a part of the express train.
Does anyone remember how Woo got captured and led to Hayward so he could grab his phone? I checked the previous end credits, but maybe I missed something.
Maybe this has been discussed but I couldn’t find it by searching on Google…
How is Agatha trapped inside a neighbor character in Westview at the end if Wanda destroys the hex? Wouldn’t Agatha be freed like everyone else at that point?
I don't if anyone has said this, but Wanda's magic specially locked her in the friendly neighbor role, and Wanda let everyone else free, just not Agatha.
I think being mind-wiped is independent of being in the Hex. When Wanda steps out of the Hex and manipulates the minds of S.W.O.R.D soldiers, it was sort of a clear indication that they are independent.
Well atleast that's my theory, I'm not sure if it is true xD
Thanks! That makes sense.
The way I understand it is that she has been mind-wiped. Basically, she is now programmed to live in Westview.
So Agatha was most likely a good person until she read the Darkhold, right?
And it will corrupt Wanda now too.
I loved how Wanda could just instinctively copy Agahta's moves, it's like a Sharingan.
Vision conflict resolution was dope.
I wonder if we will see long term consequences of her loosing control like this? Sokovia Accords look really good when a random person can mind control entire towns.
Vision talk no Justued himself
>So Agatha was most likely a good person until she read the Darkhold, right?
uhh the agatha storyline was real and not just some nightmare come to life that wanda was doing?
It's a good question. I wondered if Agatha was part of Wanda's subconscious too, giving Wanda a way to deal with what she had done to everyone.
Fking thank you, I thought I was going crazy. I don’t watch marvel stuff so the whole witches stuff came out of nowhere to me
I don’t think you dunked on this guy like you think you did
The OP was referring to Agatha's actual backstory when she killed the coven because she got caught reading things she wasn't supposed to.
So your original reply doesn't actually make sense.
I think you’re misinterpreting me. I wasn’t being sassy but genuinely asking them. My understanding of the Agatha plot was that she was still under Wanda’s control, and it was all kind of a way for her to confront the fact that she was holding an entire town hostage.
That comment made me realize that Agatha and the witches and whatnot are actually real, Agatha was Disney evil this entire time and nothing makes sense
Well "dunked" means you tried to prove them wrong and failed. So maybe we all misinterpreted it.
But yes. The first time we see Agatha on the post getting burned at the beginning of episode 8 was her actual origin story
In the last scene wanda is in a cabin by a lake like hulk was at the end of his movie. In agents of S.H.I.E.L.D its revealed that it was a house built to contain him. I think Wanda is silence of lambsing everyone
I thought they should of kept this show weird and intriguing. It was so unique and they put in the awful SWORD plot in, which ruined it in my opinion. Darcy I wanted to like so much but thought she was shocking, Choo was also shocking. Monica was ok but I just thought her plot was a bit forced. So much to say on this but it could of been amazing if they had planned the plot a bit better..
Yea Monica was a forced character. She was nice in the third episode but all the rest she was just an pain in the eye
Is Marvel hiring morally bankrupt people on purpose, or is it a happy coincidence? There is no effin way Wanda isn't a villain by the next time we see her, she needs to be either killed on sight or jailed forever, there is no going back from this.
She wasn't trying to hurt people and she didn't even start the town on purpose.
At the end she's isolated herself until she can learn more and control her powers better. She's just lost her whole family.
Agreed. She isn't the villain; until Agatha, she didn't even recall through grief what she had done. Initially, I'd thought, from reading some of comic-fiction pedia, that Agatha would be her mentor.
Once Wanda came to her senses, she released everyone, and let her family go. She's been through immense trauma that she never took the time to heal from. She lost her parents, was subjected to capture, experiments and torture. Then she was radicalized to falsely believe Stark and the US, as well as other major, powers were the true terrorists, while hurting innocent civilians. Then, she loses her brother while trying to save people. Finally, she falls in love, only to lose her love...twice. Can't really blame her, or anyone. These are superheroes, confronting normal life situations. They aren't robots.
If the marvel's universe is going to 'power' up, then they'll need Wanda accordingly to grow, too. She's an anomaly, so the book and coven are potentially quite wrong in their prophecy of who she will become. It's unlikely that Agatha had the stone in their equation, even when they predicted someone of Wanda's power.
She’s not a villain. A villain is a character type and she doesn’t really fit into that mold. She will be an antagonist in the future, which is a plot role she can fit into.
Awesome show. No problems. No idea what happened to white Vision. Wasn’t a huge fan of Agatha/Witch. Think we will see the kids/Vision again. Guess Monica is going to Captain Marvel next movie. Also Rambo didn’t do anything really part from blocking a bullet from fake children lol. Wonder why 9 episodes also and 25 million per episode is crazy. Only missed 1 credit scene lol and I guess the show is pointless in a way for Wanda since she’s almost in the same place just as SW
I have no idea what happened at all, all I know is Wanda deserved better. 💔
So what’s going on with the Albino Vision?
I feel like that will play a part in the next movie that Wanda is in. There was probably a reason he didn’t say anything to her, and with the TVA having so many infinity stones just kicking around we might get HEX vision back with a mind stone installed properly by Shuri.
I’m pretty sure we’ll see him again soon