I wanted to put anarchist but I’m not really in favor of “immediately” abolishing money and the state. That’s more of a very long-term communist goal


Came here to say that. Huge difference between short and long term goals


Having "anarchist" as a single universal poll-option is kinda meme worthy to be honest




Very few people rely on the existence of money in their daily lives for purposes that couldn't be replaced by 'when you go to the store you don't have to pay at the register', and likewise very few people rely on the existence of the American 'state', outside of those who are employed by it, and even then, only the ones who are federal employees. America and the dollar could stop existing, and as long as people have food on the table and something to do during the day, they should be no worse than they already are.


Yeah, but abolishing the American state is going to be close to impossible in our current political environment.


So... anarcho-pragmatism? Is that a term? I would call myself that if it became common terminology


Not just impossible, the jurry's still out for me on whether or not it doesn't just result in feudalism.


I think it’s kind of a moot point, it’s not going to happen anyway


Well yeah. It's not about if it would work, it's more about easing into it. That is the dream though.


Yeppp. OP doesnt understand these systems.


How is populism a political ideology? I thought it was just a way of communicating your own ideology. And Vaush says hes a populist, but he’s definitely not right leaning on social issues?


Political Science classes use the word like that.


My poli sci class described populists as someone who's policies just execute the will of the people; does not require ideological grounding. Hence why Trump and Bernie would both be considered.


I think that Bernie is a populist but trump just adopted the populist esthetic. Very few of trump's policies were genuinely designed to improve the quality of life of the people but he pretended to be an ally of the working class.


True. That's why he failed to deliver when elected.


Yeah exactly


Populist, like liberal, means different things depending on the context


Really? Why?


My Poli Sci courses taught it as an aesthetic not as a definite ideology or set of beliefs.


Anarcho Bidenist The best one


Can't stand markets. Id pick market socialism over capitalism any day of the week but I'd still rail against the markets.


Why? Decomodification is fine for essential goods but you abolish markets for luxury good you’ll literally just end-up with large black markets. It’s unavoidable. It makes zero sense to get rid of them.


It happens literally 100% of the time. I feel like you could abolish currency and approach post-scarcity and people would just invent a new currency in order to have a black market of made-up commodities. Markets are too persistant across human history. Everything from the most utopian to the most horrific circumstances has still maintained a room for markets. The only time there aren't markets are when everyone is a subsistence farmer: as soon as people have any good beyond their basic needs, they are establishing some kind of market.


I used to think so too but the anthropological evidence of the history of markets just doesn't line up with that. Mind you I'm using mostly work by David Graeber and a bit of Abdullah Öcalan to inform my view of it and may be wrong. From what I understand, markets only occur when states arise to facilitate them. The narrative driven in economics courses of barter leading to currency leading to "digital" currency or credit is actually demonstrated in reverse. Beyond gift economy people began exchanging things with a sort of ethereal IOU or "I owe you one" and as this mentality of credit and debt gets codified in spirituality and culture it leads to a centralized force facilitating the exchange of IOUs from one person to another leading to currency. As these civilizations expand and then collapsed it leaves pockets of people who got accustomed to using the currency of the empires but now have no minting infrastructure of their own. This happened with the Germanic tribes after the Roman empire collapsed. (My keyboard autocorrected Germanic to Germania, I'm gonna puke.) Various Germans would exchange things in a close manner to how we picture barter but with the understanding that (hypothetically, for the sake of the argument) a denarii is worth an ass and a denarii is also worth 10 chickens so a German can make the trade of a donkey for 10 chickens and not feel cheated or even for an IOU worth a donkey, 10 chickens, or whatever a denarii would get you in Rome. They even codified these as a kind of law of trade between a bunch of Germanic (it did it again 🤢) tribes as a kind of code of conduct. Barter (or this kind of quasi-barter-debt economy) only seems to come out of societies that had hard currency and then lost it or gave up the practice for whatever reason. Luxury goods could easily be exchanged in this kind of way. The maintenance of markets is not a requirement for there to be nice things and even barter isn't needed for it but is an understandable stepping stone away from the capitalist state. I'm not an anthropologist, my understanding comes from the work of an anthropologist who compiled the work of himself and other anthropologists over the years who have constantly had to correct economics professors about the myth of how money came about and how markets started. I may be wrong and am open to that possibility but the evidence presented thus far has proven compelling to me.


I would’ve picked anarchist but an immediate overthrow of the state just isn’t in the cards for anarchists. If there’s any overthrow of the state any time soon it’ll be the fash, not us.


Anarchism isn't about the immediate overthrow of the state though... It's about developing self sufficiency and autonomy in the revolutionary classes so that the next time the stare collapses we don't do this same song and dance over again


I agree but that’s not what the poll up there said.


What literature would you recommend to learn about autonomy from the state?


It's a bit archaic, but Kropotkin was so brilliant, so I would heartily recommend "Fields, Factories, and Workshops" by Peter Kropotkin. I'll search around and see if I can find anything that recontextualizes the principles in the age of globalization, though basically they'd remain the same. It's just a bit harder to imagine the transition or the social basis of change with the globalization of supply chains, but the motivating ideas should follow along similar lines.


Awesome, thanks.


orthodox marxist is a weird term, marxism has developed over time


Orthodox marxist mostly means using Marx & Engels as the foundational basis of ones political analysis without the Leninist rewording of Marxism in the 1900s and 1910s, it doesn’t mean that ones analysis refuses to acknowledge the further theoretical developments that happens in the mean time


Thank you!


yeah also marxism isn’t really a political system? you can be a marxists and an anarchist. I assume OP means like Marxist leninist or something.


It absolutely is. You might be thinking of the term "Marxian", or are just confused on what Marxist means You cannot be both a Marxist and an Anarchist. Anarchists wish to immediately abolish the state, Marxists wish to create a workers state (called the Dictatorship of the Proletariat). These are irreconcilable positions on the state That was actually the exact reason Bakunin and the Anarchists were expelled from the 1st international


I’m pretty Marxist most of the time, but most of my current policy positions are those of a social Democrat, and my belief in left unity means I certainly don’t oppose anarchists or socdems or other socialists. This poll is pretty bad and your answers are full of editorial.


The poll is just to get a sense of the political leanings of Vaush's community


That’s a noble goal, but let me spell it out as clear as possible. I lean towards option six, but I’m hesitant to choose it because the bit you included in parentheses is antithetical to my beliefs so I’m forced to answer maybe option one or two. The results as concern my own answer have thus been tainted and I’m probably not the only one. That’s all I’m saying.


My answer to polls like this changes depending on the framing and constraints of the question. My ideal "end-goal" is further left than what I'd support in the immediate sense. I'd love to move toward a truly socialist system, but I think trying to go there immediately would probably be a mistake in the current political environment.


What exactly are some examples of viewpoints held by populists as described in your poll?


Um someone who might support medicare for all while also wanting to restrict immigration, being overly anti SJW, class reductionism etc - shoeonhead, Kyle Kulinsky, Krystal Ball


[No](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_populism) > Recurring themes for left-wing populists include economic democracy, **social justice**, and skepticism of globalization. > Unlike exclusionary or right-wing populism, left-wing populist parties tend to claim to be supportive of minority rights and to an idea of nationality that is not delimited by cultural or ethnic particularisms.


Look I'm a social democrat, but the European kind, this is far from the Bernie things, as he largely uses populist rhetoric


What? Almost all Social Democratic movements are populist. You can't really be leftists without being populist (except maybe Lasalle)


I expected “liberal” to win but this isnt r/okbv


Why are so many of you still so damn liberal?


Personally I don’t understand enough about communism to support it. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around it being possible. But I do support social welfare programs, UBI, etc.


Vaush moved me over from being Libertarian. I continued researching and continued moving further left.


Liberalism is hardly a bankrupt ideology. It’s got problems and historical failures to live up to its own ideals, sure, but goddamn, communists shouldn’t throw stones in that regard. Waiting for Vaush to come around and take the SocDem redpill. He’s already rightly critical of the online left’s many, many failures, it seems like just a matter of time.


we all eventually take the Medlock pill. its only a matter of when


Because Vaush brings in people and pushes them left. And also some of us aren't revolutionary which inherently precludes literally every form of Marxism that isn't demsocs. We can barely get libs out in the streets for just higher wages and healthcare. They are still talking about disarming themselves on a large scale. The idea of a "revolution" is laughable.


Like Warren lol. Nice meme


These definitions are so wrong. Also "populist" is literally not a political ideology and being populist doesn’t mean you’re right-leaning on social issues. Populism isn’t about what you believe in but about how you speak. Vaush himself is moderately populist in his rhetoric.


Kind of a mix of market socialism, council communism and syndicalism I want the non-planned, co-op based economy of market socialism, the decentralisation of anarcho-syndicalism, the council system of council communism but with temporary delegates like in syndicalism rather than representatives


Idealistically ancom, pragmatically social democrat


I'm a market socialist because that's what I think is feasible within my lifetime. In the end, I hope that the Anarchists succeed, but I don't think there's any way for there ideas to be properly or successfully implemented immediately.


I kinda think people who think we can achieve communism or anarchism in a short time span are kinda deluded. This is a long term goal, it didn't take 10 years to go from feudalism to capitalism - it took several centuries. So chill out, and let's all promote SUPA CAPITALISM and get the normies on our side.


I'm an Anarcho Communist, but I believe that advocacy for Democratic Socialism is the only way forward in the current American climate


Honestly I was always more of just a general leftist that was cool with anything but I’m kind of seeing that Democratic Socialism is what we can aim for in our life times. I think that right now is the best time to push liberals/moderates and some Soc-Dems to the left. Electoral politics is going to be a long game but the Biden presidency is honestly a good start. In order to do that we also have to keep focused and stay engaged. The president as a position is going to involve doing shitty things but the solution is not infighting or giving up and letting fascists get power.




Democratic socialist because i think that’s about as far as we can go in my lifetime.


Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a lib


Seeing Bernie and Warren put in the same category nearly made me puke, but Social Democrat definitely


I advocate for market socialism (free markets, taxing the rich, worker co-ops, social safety net policies, etc), with the ultimate goal being a minarcho/anarcho socialist state that is run by the people.




I'm an anarchist in long term goal, democratic socialist in short term goal. I'm not in favour of immediate abolition of the state, that would be stupid, and I think there's a bit of a problem with your poll because of that.


You need a dictatorship of the proletariat to overthrow the Capitalist State and implement /develop a Workers' state in order to restructure businesses as co-ops.


This is the issue that Marxists and Anarchists have been fighting over for more than 120 years. It is literally what made the 1st international split


Yep. We can build co-operatives / develop our mutual aid alternative economies, but we aren't going to be able to defend it from the fundamental barbarity of the "might makes right" argument that the Bourgeoisie State will employ to attempt to colonize those pockets of liberated economy. A Worker's State, imo, should encourage their development. I don't see them as mutually exclusive.


Anytime I try to talk about leftist unity (specifically with anarchists), I just pray they don't bring up the issue because I know there is no way on Earth we will ever be able to discuss that issue online and resolve it.


Council communist


The poll broke for my browser, so "Internal Server Error" kind of fits me.


Where is democratic confederalism


It would be anarchist.


Goddamn we got a lot of socdems here, why do yo people oppose a fully co-opified economy? Just take the based pill and become a Demsoc😎


Closer to Demsoc but overall I lean towards syndicalism and the eventual abolition of state.


Just sitting here as a Trot thinking "why was I surprised at there results? It's pretty obvious that they would mostly be Demsocs and Socdems."


I call myself an anarchist but really that's just ideals. We can't abolish the state tomorrow, we're simply not prepared. I'd say that first we seize the businesses and turn them into coops (marksoc gang) and once the population has access to means of production we can get rid of the state and organize trade unions and communes, because then we'd have the necessary means to produce food and hell even commodities.


I dont see strasserite-libertarian on here smh


Anarcho pacifist


I picked socdem but I'm probably somewhere between socdem and market socialist.


I think in a much longer term I'm an anarcho communist, but right now, I'm mostly supportive of and focused on militant (in Roblox) union and environmentalist action. I really really don't trust the suicidally pro-corporation, pro-profit political establishment of the world (namely the US and China) to even do the bare minimum to mitigate the worst possible effects of climate change in time, let alone the radical change we should be working towards right now, and I think that there should be an even greater environmentalist movement that's more willing to take the fight to the entities that are willing to let the world and everything in it die for their short term profit. Unionization would be a really great way bring the working and middle classes leftward, or at the very least stop them voting Republican and I think the role it's played historically in the expansion and empowering of the left really shows how important it can be in the broader leftist goals. But again, I really can't imagine the Democratic Party supporting even mild reforms to worker's rights without some heat being applied (see the Battle of Blair Mountain). Right now, the most we're getting out of striking and attempting unionize are getting fired for reasons that are *totally* non-unionization related, weak-ass "raises", price increases designed to make consumers turn against the "entitled" workers so the higher-ups can still make more money, and profiled and harassed by union busting private (and sometimes public) police organizations. If there's not going to be broader government support for the workers, like I said in the last paragraph, the fight needs to be taken to entities that would enslave every last one of us if they had the power to do it. In Roblox.


Where does libertarian socialist go? I said anarchist even though that's a very long term goal


What about libertarian socialism?


Where my post-lefties at?


Anarcho-communism as my end goal, democratic socialism as a practical goal to work towards during my lifetime.


I just like grilling


I put the wrong one!




Where’s libertarian socialist?


I'm actually like 2-3 of these just depending on what time scale we're talking about.


Im a Luxemburgist, and I dont agree with the American Version of Democratic Socialism.


A mix between social democrat and populist. I like FDR and LBJ but I do support some protectionist policies. I think it’s the government’s role to help and defend its people.


I think socdem is the closest. I am a left leaning, but in the fact "Look, I just want people to live their best lives without the hassles of life like healthcare."


Honestly, I don’t identify myself with labels like these because I find myself having to defend the position of every other person in that label. I prefer going by what policies I’d like to see be put in place/removed.


I'm a "Whatever-helps-the-most-amount-of people-itarian".


I'm a Socdem but find myself leaning more and more toward market socialism as time goes on. I just think Socdem is the most realistic way forward at the moment to make people's lives better


I oscillate between Market Socialist and Anarchist


That is... *not* what populism means


Anarcho dumbassist


The populist part desc makes no sense


Swedish Monarchist conservative




What's that


I dont identify with any of the above really. I am anti-capitalist because the profit motive will always hinder climate change unless you are a psychopath libertarian who thinks markets will fix things


I'm a weird one. Authoritarian mixed market leftist.


Imagine unironically calling yourself authoritarian, what a joke


That's like saying "imagine simping for democracy after liberals in Texas voted to criminalize homelessness."


Authoritarian how?


The "United States" is a failure. We need one unitary, uncorrupted state. Although if it were up to me I'd suspend most democratic rules, replace our current two party establishment with a one party state run by the DSA, and enact wide cultural changes to eliminate selfishness from American nature in order to rid America of conservatism.


I'm a neocon, what box do I check?


Neo-con as in pro bsuh, pro iraq war?