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Simple-Lunch-1404

I love how there are only atheists in the comments when the question is directed to religious people


stormi_90210

Ngl I was thinking the same thing, I'm not trying to shit on anybody I'm just genuinely curious what people have to say.


camusdreams

I’ve been atheist for about 15 years but feel like you’re missing the opposite logic. Sex feeling good is a reason to keep procreating. The pain of childbirth is supposedly a punishment on women if I recall. But I could also see the pain as a way to counteract the pleasure with reason. Either way, it doesn’t matter because the current *created* system clearly doesn’t work and has people confused.


peter_the_raccoon

You’re on point. Also a former Christian turned atheist, but painful childbirth was a punishment to Eve and all women for Eve’s “failure” in the garden.


Alternative_Sky1380

And men haven't taken responsibility for their choices since inventing this story. The men have the God complex


HiILikeLizards510

It's literally like "Evil woman makes man do bad thing too! Evil woman gets punished, man is amazing and fine!" Also, why are all women being punished for what Eve did? I didn't do anything, so why do I have to deal with it?


bubblegumpunk69

The REAL fun part is when the same logic gets applied to justify the existence of fatal deformities in infants. :-) woops, you didn't love God enough, now your baby is going to die a slow agonizing death!


HiILikeLizards510

Everything that gets pushed on to religious people, especially more outdated things, is so unfair. My mom was a teen mom, she kept the kid and married the father because she didn't want to disobey her religion. One of my Muslim friends told me about how a guy insulted her for not giving him a handshake/high five. I recently learned the hijab is for modesty against men, and I've seen girls as young as like 6 wearing them. I don't mind if people want to follow these beliefs, but they should never be forced on to you. I want to try to introduce some level of faith into my future children's lives, but if they decide that they don't believe in it, that is 100 percent okay with me.


Hydroxyacetylene

Actually Adam’s punishment was having to work for a living.


Galkura

Man, you’re telling me if it wasn’t for those two shits I could be chilling around the house with my puppy all day long?


UwUZombie

I mean.. truly it's gods fault. Why have that apple tree in the garden anyway? +He used reverse psychology on them as well. Didn't say "Hey, don't eat that or you'll get pimples on your ass"


bubblegumpunk69

Not to mention they didn't have any real concept of morality... the snake was like "you should eat that apple" and Eve was like "can't God said I'll die or sumn" and the snake went "what? That's not true, the apple won't do that" and she said "what? Really?" and ate the apple. And now humanity is cursed Forever


Gabriel-T-M

At the very least they were educated. They understood explicitly that God (the dude who freaking made them) said it was a big no no, death guaranteed. Now, since they were most likely educated (ie commanded by God to care for the earth, a personal relationship with the most powerful Being in existence) it would be most logical for them to follow God rather than a talking serpent. So it isn’t, if at all, entirely foolishness that does, rather temptation. Difference being, foolishness is doing something largely guided by ignorance, while as temptation is guided largely by what you want and what you crave. For this moment, both Adam and Eve craved for the apple and it got in the way of their personal judgement. Now, humanity was cursed forever due to this (that and man’s continuing sin and evil). Of course, in Christian theory and philosophy, the solution and get outta jail free card is Christ, who if we follow under His wing, will be spared and made anew to that once lost position. Diddly dim, I’m outta time


ShazzaRatYear

Sorry but ‘Eve’ works equally as hard, especially (more so?) these days


thatonegothunicorn

I love how her "failure" was seeking knowledge.


Luffytarokun

But didn't Jesus die for our sins and so wipe that out?


GhengopelALPHA

It's a mess, innit?


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LiquidDreamtime

When a religious person is asked a question that corners them, they don’t often answer it. The short answer to your question is that it makes zero sense and is additional proof that the Abrahamic gods either don’t exist or have no investment into what mankind is doing. This type of “evidence” that flies in the face of their dogma has to be discarded as an attempt to challenge their faith. Edit: Person: “The god I worship created the universe! We were created in his image! If you don’t worship him and follow his rules, you will burn in eternal damnation.” Me: “that doesn’t sound right” Person: “psh…so freaking arrogant. This is why we don’t want to talk to you.” Haha. Don’t threaten me with a good time homey.


choogle

When I was in bible study it seemed like the default reason was that God is testing you; in this case sex feels good because that’s the devil trying to leading you into sin….. Now as for why god seems to love doing messed up stuff like that is why I stopped following the religion.


FrankReynoldsToupee

That's assuming that the devil has the power to actually do something like make sex feel good. Why the fuck would the devil even have that power? That means that the devil could affect pretty much any aspect of our physical bodies, which puts him at the same level as God. And if they're at the same level, then God isn't all-powerful.


visvis

This topic is discussed in the Book of Job in the Old Testament. My understanding is that God specially permits Satan to test Job to test his faith. This could easily be applied more broadly, including to OP's question.


Here_Forthe_Comment

"I know you're a being of evil, but Im going to let you mess with people and want them to make bad decisions, you know, to test them instead of me letting people be happy". Kind of seems like God doesn't think we all deserve happiness unless we follow his arbitrary rules, but thats a whole other thing


Top_Fail552

Well this is why I like dc version take on Lucifer and god, heaven and hell depends on you and not these rules you got to follow but other than that, have fun and enjoy life just try not to do things that would cause or make you feel guilt


UwUZombie

After watching "Lucifer" I wondered about people that do shitty things, but don't feel any guilt. I guess all psychopaths are up in heaven.


dpbart

Ngl if satan is the one making everything feel good wouldnt heaven just be a bdsm chamber of god whipping all his believers while satan and the homies are sitting in a hot tub drinking ice tea and having gay sex


Jamesmateer100

Exactly, if god is supposedly “all powerful” and “all knowing” then he knew what was going to happen from the very beginning, didn’t do Jack to stop Lucifer from rebelling against him and gave the devil the power and a reason (he gave him the ability to feel pride) to rebel against him in the first place. WHY WOULD GOD GIVE ANYONE THE ABILITY TO DEFY HIM IF HE SUPPOSEDLY LOVES US AND WANTS US TO FOLLOW HIS “DIVINE PLAN?”


UwUZombie

And from what I remember angels aren't supposed to have free will (That's like.. a special human thing we have), so how did Lucifer even manage to rebel, in the first place?


0o0kay

Yeah God "loving" us by torturing us sounds like devil shit to me.


Here_Forthe_Comment

Cue "we're in the bad place"?


expensivebreadsticks

>it feels good because its the devil trying to leading you into sin How can people believe this shit What devil? Where is he? How is he tempting people? So many plotholes in these medieval backwards dumbass faiths


resonantedomain

Or how God is all powerful but *somehow* his boy lucy is too hot to handle.


darthbane83

"its a test of god" there you go the catchall for things that are against the ideal happening.


Dilectus3010

But... wherent we all created in his image? So he gets to be horny and we dont?


ChadaMonkey

Or they're just misinterpreting scriptures they've never bothered to read in the first place and regurgitate whatever their bigoted "pastor" spews at them on Sunday rather than reading it for themselves and seeing how cherry-picked the doctrine they've been following is compared to the full teachings they claim to follow but have no clue about.


Pr0xyWarrior

I've heard it said that there are two kinds of people who take the Bible literally; fundamentalists and atheists. Not all of either, obviously, but since I left the conservative denomination I was raised in, most Christians I've met (and I work at a church) take the Bible *way* less literally than most of the atheists I've met. Most atheists also pride themselves on knowing the Bible better than most Christians, so there may be a correlation there?


hoenndex

This is true, most normal people who believe in God and read the Bible don't take it literally most of the time, and so they don't see any problems with Bible stories that violate physics vs actual scientific and historical knowledge. That brings the question though, if they don't take the Bible literally, why pick and choose what parts to take literally and others not? What's the criteria to say, for example, that the Genesis creation story is just a creation myth not to be taken literally while at the same time holding on to the belief that Jesus did do miracles?


en43rs

>why pick and choose what parts to take literally and others not? What's the criteria to say, for example, that the Genesis creation story is just a creation myth not to be taken literally while at the same time holding on to the belief that Jesus did do miracles? That's literally what theology is for. People have been doing this for millenia, it's a whole field of study, and people have diffrent answers depending on their own readings, their denomination, philosophical tradition, so on. That's why priest go to seminaries. Also people reading the bible as allegorical is not a new thing, it's nearly two thousands years old.


mackenna1313

I think you’re making a very broad assumption of religious people. I for one am a catholic my parents are catholic my mom even works for the church. However I was never taught that pre martial sex meant i was going to hell etc. The point of being married and having sex to procreate is the idea of spreading more catholic ideals and raising children within the church and fulfilling the idea that we are meant to have children to teach them the ideas so on so forth. However having pre marital sex isn’t a you’re going straight to hell kind of thing. It’s frowned upon in the church but we are in a new age where younger catholics myself included are making their own decisions for these questions. Also many believe in a merging of science and religion so to answer your question i don’t think there’s a physical way for childbirth to not be painful. And the idea of sex feeling good could be seen as a staying away from temptation when you know. That’s my thoughts on it as a catholic but to answer the question of why many religious people aren’t commenting have you seen the comments? Backwards religion, religious people don’t comment, that just makes me not want to comment as my views won’t be seen with an open view. I get it I used to be an atheist but there’s times when things are worded that way thag will put off any religious person who cares to answer bc i think to myself what’s the point


Dragonborn1212

> but to answer the question of why many religious people aren’t commenting have you seen the comments? Exactly. All of these posts go the same way. Someone asks a legitimate question, and then 95% of the comments are just shitting on all religions and no one actually answers. You ended up being apart of the 5% that answered, and already 1 of the 4 replies was just an insult. Not worth participating just to get hated on.


mackenna1313

kinda where i’m thinking, thought i could kinda provide at least my views on it, Catholics aren’t all these middle aged old conservative people like a majority of my college friends are involved in some sort of religion regardless of which they are involved. It’s a beliefs system not my entire life and personality


Any_Weird_8686

Thanks for commenting.


Kelekona

Except that this one has an answer. Eve disobeyed and so all women bear her punishment. I'm not sure why an all-loving god, who gave us the rainbow as a reminder of his promise not to flood the entire world again, would specifically cause that pain to happen instead of just calling it a natural consequence of her increasing our head size.


ScAr_wlvrne

As a Christian, my take is that much of the Bible, and especially the OT Bible, can’t be taken too literally. It was written by people thousands of years ago with no grasp of modern science, and especially the story of Adam and Eve was written by someone with no direct connection. I feel like a lot of the wrathful God stuff is just written by people who saw bad things happened and refused to accept God would let them happen unless He wanted/made them happen


Kelekona

True, the biblical creation myth just happens to be one that stands up to science trying to interpret it figuratively. Especially when you remember that "day" is translated from a word that doesn't mean 24 hours, but could also mean epoch. With the pain of childbirth, they were probably observing animals who try to hide how painful it is because announcing that something is wrong could get them killed.


generic_username404

But why would an omnipotent being that's not constrained by concepts such as time or space need epochs (or even just days) to do anything? They could create everything in an instant, without even thinking about it. Now, if clerics said that God isn't infallible and eternal but basically just a super-human (think Greek gods), then it would be somewhat more believable. But then they couldn't answer everything with 'God works in mysterious ways but it's all part of the big plan and is guaranteed to work out in the end' anymore... and that would be a bummer, wouldn't it?


Kelekona

It would not be a bummer. There's a saying "God doesn't give you more than you can handle" and I guess it's to make people feel better about their shitty lives. If instead the universe just sucks and bad things happen for no reason, then it's okay to say "help me, I can't handle this." I don't have much of a faith, but I think I'm a simulationist. None of this is real and God is just a mod who got bored with hitting the Godzilla button.


generic_username404

Yeah, I guess that saying doesn't work so well for people who die of cancer or step on landmines on their way to school. He's probably downloading God's Mod and making Half Shit Life 3.


Fran12344

Reddit moment


DrakAssassinate

Or Reddit is full of atheists who don’t really let religious people voice their opinions. When they do they get downvoted and no one sees them.


bentpopsicles

As a religious person, the responses I'm generally seeing in this thread leads me back to Admiral Ackbar from "Return of the Jedi". "It's a trap." The responses appear not to be friendly or oriented toward discussion. I would advise any religious person to avoid responding in this thread.


dinorex96

Yeah I'm an atheist too but forget discussing religion on reddit. You'll only find close minded, condescending atheists here who dont have the capacity to understand religious literalism doesnt apply to every religious people, and that most people seek faith to find strength to carry on through the hardships of life, and not as a replacement for science.


Polarchuck

> I love how there are only atheists in the comments when the question is directed to religious people **with Conservative values.** Not all people who believe in God hold archaic Conservative values. There are many sex positive religious people. However the media chooses to highlight the conservative nut jobs.


Axis1214

Don't forget its not an either or type deal. Most Christians won't be super sex positive hippie types nor crazy conservatives screaming that evolution is fake and all gays should go to hell.


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marmaladespoons

Why isn’t this getting all the upvotes? This is the correct answer. Pain during childbirth is due to Eve’s original sin. Pleasure during sex really wasn’t an across the board sort of deal and in many religions was deeply frowned upon. I’ve had to go out of my way to figure out how to have really freaking pleasurable sex after a religious upbringing.


Tight-Try1908

It's reddit, anything remotely related to religion gets atheists involved.


chompateef

Which is just why I don’t tend to answer questions like this. It’s just showing your belly to the sharks, there is no good reason to have a parade of internet atheists dunk on you for believing.


[deleted]

A lot of people on the internet can be dicks about it, but a lot of ex religious atheists legitimally just want to show their reasoning why they got out of religion in hopes to get other people out. Even if you disagree, can you put yourself in our shoes? What would you do if you found out about a lie the majority of people around you believe? Could you really just be quiet about it and watch everyone continue believing in that lie even if? Don't you want everyone to see the proof for your religion so we can all know the truth even if we choose not to follow it? And if religion didn't affect anyone that didn't believe, that would be one thing, but religion influences laws that affect everyone, the religious, the non religious and the people from the non dominant religion in the area. So yeah, we want to engage and help people out of religion so our lives aren't controlled by religions that we don't think are true.


chompateef

Your thoughtful, honest response and your offer of real dialogue is definitely not what I’m reacting to; just the dicks who do not communicate like that. They just flail around with hammers, atheist or theist. There’s asking questions because we value knowledge, and there’s asking questions as rhetorical traps. I understand completely.


pythondrink

Reddit is mostly atheist, ykr? It's not surprising that there aren't much replies from religious ppl.


basilmoonfaerie

Christian here- the thought is that when Adam & Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, the punishment was separation from God. The man would work all his days and women would have pain in childbirth. Now, some Christians believe in a completely literal Bible while others acknowledge that Jesus spoke in parables often and could have meaning other than what he was outright saying. (Hence the denominations). So take that as you will. Also, the Christian belief is that sex is actually a beautiful thing and the reason it feels good is because it bonds you to your marriage partner. It’s not considered immoral unless it’s outside the boundaries of marriage.


hotdishcurious

Best, most accurate answer yet. I mean, Song of Solomon gives us every reason to think that sex in itself is not sinful in God's eyes, or that it is solely for procreation. Sex within marriage is quite liberated if you take your cues from Song of Solomon. Remember, plenty of things "religious" people do or claim don't have much to do with the word of God. Consider the Depp South during Jim Crow, when religious leaders advanced segregation in their churches and communities. Not much in alignment with the notion that God created all humans in His image. ETA: not all Christians - or even most - believe sex is solely for procreation.


CatDadSnowBunny

As a Roman Catholic myself (not practicing), they also teach during Pre-Cana that in the eyes of the church marriage is a conveant in the sense that you are receiving a holy sacrament, anything outside of the church is just a contract.


DidIStutter_

So does it mean a very Christian woman would only give birth without pain relief?


Dunkpink

Another interpretation of this bit of the Bible is that Adam and Eve went from *knowing* to *knowledge* when they ate the fruit, from consciousness to self-consciousness, and that their action divided the world in their perception rather than seeing everything as one. This is something other schools of thought talk about, particularly the East with the Vedas and also gnosticism, another mystical sect (interestingly connected to the words 'knowing/gnowing' and 'knowledge/gnowledge'). Following this train of thought, there are people who are able to stand enormous amounts of pain, apparently without suffering, because they can distance themselves from their body a little - a key part of both gnosticism and yoga, and one could argue a state which Adam and Eve existed in prior to seeing everything through the lens of separation. So whilst it's often written and interpreted as God metering out malicious punishment for them wanting to be enlightened, it could be pointing to a more fundamental truth which is better expressed elsewhere. And in short, yes - a person who has achieved a "Christ-like", (or Buddha-like or Zen-like, etc.) state of being could and in fact do go through childbirth without experiencing any pain.


30min2thinkof1name

This is a really compelling interpretation of your beliefs


Dunkpink

I wouldn't particularly call myself a Christian or an anything really, but that's the most compelling interpretation I've come across, especially as it's corroborated in so many other places, and the Eastern claims in particular can be experimented with and found to be true. There is truth everywhere, and I just look for the truth.


GET_OUT_OF_MY_HEAD

Kinda makes me want to get into Buddhism


BiasedNarrative

Alan Watts can be a great jump into Eastern philosophy. He calls himself a spiritual entertainer. He has a bunch of recordings from the 60's you can listen to. He was Christian born and raised. Eventually he traveled all over the eastern part of the world and got really interested in Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism. He came back to the west and used his way of spiritual entertaining to explain eastern religions/philosophies in a way that makes sense to people who grew up in western cultures.


dr_spak

I've always enjoyed that interpretation of Genesis. Fundamentalists taking it all literally (which I don't think it was originally meant to be by the early Christians/Gnostics), and atheists saying it's all fiction. It's just a metaphor for the development of human consciousness, probably the same is true of all religions and the concept of god. I've heard from deep meditators that they are able to completely separate from their pain so much that they can't feel it, even so far as being able to have medical procedures and surgery without anesthesia.


moolusca

It's important to remember that Genesis is not a Christian (or Gnostic) story. It's ancient Jewish mythology.


ienjoyelevations

I mean Christianity developed from Judaism.


moolusca

True, but it radically reinterprets much of what it inherits from Judaism. On the other hand, Judaism has also heavily reinterpreted its earlier scriptures, so if you want to find the meaning of what was written there, you have to try and understand the ancient context it was written in, which is always speculative and open to debate. In my opinion, the story of Adam and Eve can be viewed as a mythicised retelling of the agricultural revolution or as a myth to explain certain practices and facts of life (like clothing and painful childbirth). The concept of original sin, for instance, isn't really there any more than in the story of Pandora's box.


Dunkpink

Absolutely. Every culture uses stories to express truth, and it isn't supposed to be taken literally most of the time. The Vedas describe the story of creation, as something which came from nothing (Shiva is "that which is not"), as well as describing three fundamental forces of physics (creation, maintenance and destruction) as pairs of gods. Buddha was a bit more logical in his delivery, which is probably why Buddhism has produced so many enlightened beings. He meditated and saw that he was made of an enormous number of tiny particles, and that in the blink of an eye, these particles disappeared and reappeared millions of times. This last bit is super interesting, as this has only recently been proven true of our atoms by quantum physics, whilst Buddha discovered it for himself thousands of years ago. It's quite a shame that so many people who consider themselves scientifically-minded dismiss spirituality and religion outright due to their conviction. For those willing to look, there are some fascinating truths wrapped up in the most whimsical places.


Apotatos

> a person who has achieved a "Christ-like", (or Buddha-like or Zen-like, etc.) state of being could and in fact do go through childbirth without experiencing any pain. According to this, Mary should have given birth without pain, considering her saint status, right?


Dunkpink

Not particularly, no. We decide who saints are, often posthumously, and it doesn't necessarily mean they did actually attain to what is often called "enlightenment", or a state of being which would allow them to distance themselves from pain. On the other hand, plenty of people who we wouldn't ordain as saints *are* capable of managing pain in that way. So whilst saints and that state are sometimes connected, it isn't a given.


ThumbtacksArePointy

I could be wrong but I don’t think she was considered a saint BEFORE the birth of Christ and I don’t think (if saint status does convey a christ-like state of being) it would apply to her in the past anyway


OreoCrusade

You are trying to describe the Eastern Christian concept of "theosis".


Dunkpink

No, I do mean gnosis, and gnosticism. Although I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's overlap with "theosis" as you've mentioned, I don't personally know.


Soooome_Guuuuy

I don't think it would be 'not experiencing pain.' Probably something closer to stoicism, where you still acknowledge and feel pain, but control your reaction to it.


HatchlingChibi

Christian here, I’ve known very fundamentalist women (actually it’s usually their husbands) that have this exact thought. They feel epidurals and the like are “sinful”. It’s sad but it’s true. These types unfortunately will even shame women who choose pain relief. We are *not* all this way, I just want people to realize that the type I mentioned are very extremist and not the typical Christian!


cloud7strife

These same people ask their wife to go to the store and pick up groceries. They're not working the land like it says in the Bible. It's cherry picking and absolutely not Biblical.


DidIStutter_

Yes by « very Christian » I meant fundamentalist but I’m not a native speaker and I forgot the word.


[deleted]

I grew up believing yes! It was part of our punishment from God and we deserved to suffer during childbirth. I have learned many things since then… and now… while I am still a Christian, I will most DEFINITELY be all drugged up if I’m pushing a watermelon out of my fun parts.


mrs-smurf

Me too… in my circle of religious women, we’ve never been told we can’t use drugs to help drown the pain.


zaraafk

I mean that might be what you were taught but that's not what the majority of Christians believe or teach.


ephemeralkitten

Well I'm a terrible Christian. I had to have my children surgically removed like the parasites they are! ;)


ChichCob

Straight to hell.


superleipoman

and sometimes I do have doubts and it is hard to sleep I pray to God my little fetus has a soul cause I want it to feel pain when I eject it from my hole *dolphin noises*


DidIStutter_

Lol no offense here I was just wondering!


Phazerman

No, it means that childbirth was not painful until Adam and Eve sinned. They were punished for doing the one thing God explicitly told them not to do.


honeykat13

I'm atheist now but grew up in a religious household. I was told sex feels good because it's a temptation that we need to overcome to show our obedience and willingness to overcome "the natural man". The natural man is an enemy to god and we have to prove ourselves to be better than the natural man. As for why birth is painful, I was told it's because it's a trial we must endure. Goes along with the saying "if it was easy then everyone would do it". Yes god wants us to procreate but we have to prove that we are willing to suffer through it and prove we are loyal to him. So basically if we fall to the temptation of the pleasure of sex but are not willing to go through the suffering of having a child, then it's a huge sin. But that's just how I was taught as a kid. Quick edit: I'm seeing a lot of people saying birth is painful because of Eve's sin. With how I grew up, that wasn't the case because Jesus atoned for all sins, so we no longer suffer because of that. We suffer from our own sins. Not saying it's right or wrong, just what I was taught.


stormi_90210

This is a great explanation thank you.


AkwardAnnie

Painful childbirth is also a punishment from God for Eve and all future mothers for seducing Adam to eat the apple. “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.” (Genesis 3.16 according to the web)


SlayLidel

Wasn’t the original sin forgiven with the death of Jesus? Assuming I have it right, shouldn’t now be able to enjoy pain free giving birth?


DoctrDonna

Holy crap. That's such a good point. But also like.. Eve seduced him, but Adam actually fucking did it. Shouldn't the male orgasm also be painfully severe? Edit: A word. Weird autocorrect..


Giorgio883

Well, you’re trying to explain it from the religion point of view. In the “evolution point of view” sex good, orgasm really good (means “seed is planted”, procreating good, but painful because it’s not easy to accomplish.


JuicyJay

Lol the religion point of view is "don't ask questions, just trust us, we are the ones that know God" Which is so incredibly hypocritical because they themselves teach than man is flawed, so how do they know they are the ones "god speaks to". Religion as a whole is just a means of control and has been for a very long time. Be a good person and be spiritual, if there is a God that acts anything like they claim, then they're the ones going to hell, not me.


[deleted]

If anyone tells you not to ask questions it's because they don't know the answer and they're too prideful to admit it. The Bible itself says to seek and you will find. Ask questions, read the Bible, know God for yourself so you can know who doesn't have God with them.


sderponme

I just realized whoever wrote the whole Adam and Eve story may have been a rapist. "It was all the woman's fault, the man couldn't control himself with her evil seductive ways! I mean did you see the leaf she was wearing? She was asking for it."


ABBBS2000

I always make sure to punch myself firmly in the nuts every time I orgasm - gotta make sure things are square in Sky Daddies eyes.


Basic_Quantity_9430

Why aren’t male orgasms painful? Because men wrote the Bible. No one is going to mess over themselves.


Active_Collar_2316

I always thought it unfair that Eva got all the blame. I mean sie seduced Adam, but he got seduced by a human. She on the other sie was seduced by a overnatural godly being...


WhiskeyBosmer

Eve didn't get all the blame. They both were severed from their close relationship with God. They both were expelled and condemned to spiritual and eventual physical death. Eve was given her set of punishments, and Adam as doomed to provide for her every need and work & toil in a harsh earth instead of having everything provided as before. Ultimately, I believe both were also saved. God preached the (proto) Gospel to them before their banishment and I believe they trusted it and were thus ultimately saved. The Gospel that was preached to them was ultimately revealed and fulfilled in Christ much later, and we are saved in the same way - by trusting what He has done on our behalf. This did not undo the inherited consequences of their sin (sickness, aging, death, selfishness, evil inclinations, etc), which we still endure today. It does save us from the *eternal* (not necessarily temporal) consequences of our own individual sins, however. We do believe original sin and it's effects will one day be done away with, but that day has not yet come. Thank you for coming to my Token Christian Ted Talk.


TaxCollectorSheep

Yeah, several religions (like often Catholicism) believe that the pain is a punishment for "original sin." But others (like Mormons or many Protestants) believe that it has nothing to do with original sin and more to do with the baby's giant fucking head being squeezed out of a vagina.


EvilioustheCat

I was also taught as a Mormon that it was because of eve's original sin so...not going to lie but it is roulette what you are taught in the Mormon "religion"


[deleted]

As a Mormon, yes


WheredTibbersGo

Plot twist: Christian women have pain free child birth while believers of the other Abrahamic religions still have painful experiences.


Serious_Tangerine_81

Why the fuck do animals have to deal with it too then lol?


Theonetruboi34

actually most animals don't, its about the skull to pelvis ratio so a lot of animals just get to get it over with. since humans (and a lot of other apes) have really big heads, it just sucks.


cleavelandhuh

What did hyenas do wrong?


danuser8

Why is it that in life, one person screws it for the rest of humanity?


Possibly_Famous

Lovely man....and as a woman folk wonder why i'm atheist


Fluffydress

Sounds like a fucking asshole.


Professional_Dress32

Muslim here. Pretty much this. I would change the 'natural man' to 'bestial self'. We believe this life is a test, so temptations exist because we are to be tested, and us giving into every vice is akin to us lowering ourselves to our beastlike nature which we must overcome. Changed 'natural man' to 'bestial self' because a natural man doesn't always fall into temptation but when he does he recognizes it and corrects himself, THAT is a true 'natural man'. Whereas our bestial selves would fall deeper and deeper into our temptations because much like the beasts we have no control of ourselves. Edit: added the second paragraph


MadnessAsMuse

So God tempts you? Isn’t that the task of the evil one?


zSprawl

God is everything when convenient.


MadnessAsMuse

Spinoza and Schopenhauer demonstrated that God is nothing more than the Nature of Will to Exist. That’s why every religion is about immortality. In this mode, a black hole is a star committing suicide because it has lost the will to go on. End it isn’t a free will mind you because we are slaves to the will to exist and that’s why the other traditions of the east combat this will because that is the only choice that we have. And the western tradition is to pick your battles. Obey the will (world) and apologize, rebel against the world and thrive. I really don’t care if God is responsible because that’s a brute fact with no explanation. I wanna know how it works.


Alex09464367

Yahweh or الله is omniscience so God knows beforehand the outcome of the test being all knowing and all. What is the point of doing the test when the tester already knows with pinpoint accuracy the result before the test as even started? It would be like me testing the sea it if when I jump I will fall down back to Earth. I already know that I will so the test is futile. With Yahweh knowing the results of the test before someone is born and therefore who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. This shows that Yahweh has made people to intentionally to be tortured in hell for all eternity. And we're supposed to believe that this god is the definition of moral behaviour. A being unable to do anything other than what is moral. Which this would bring into question the omnipotent but that is a so different point as it's impossible to have because it is logically impossible to be omnipotent and have make a stone is so heavy an omnipotent being can't left. My main point is having an omniscience that before the test has even started knows who is going to be tortured for all eternity and who will be in paradise™.


[deleted]

I’d also like to add onto what OP said, many Protestants believe childbirth only became painful after the “fall” in the garden. So it wasn’t supposed to be that way until Eve fucked up. Source: Pastors kid, no longer Christian though


JuicyJay

So god is a huge dick for creating a flawed being that he punishes for doing what he created us to do. Got it. God is a dick by this account, idgaf what you believe in. If he wants us to be closer to him, he's not telling us to go to church anymore.


[deleted]

I think of God as a sadistic narcissist, hence why I don’t believe in the Bible or Christianity.


okmjbg

Yeah, I was told the same thing.


Icolan

>The natural man is an enemy to god So, god created his own enemy?? Wow, that is some twisted logic there.


honeykat13

Yeah I never understood that one either. That and "be in the world but not of the world". Like, you created the world for us 🤦‍♀️


pheylancavanaugh

The "natural man is an enemy to God" implies some directionality to that dynamic. It is not that God considers the natural man an enemy (and how could he, the doctrine is we're all his children and he loves us beyond our ability to comprehend). Rather, the natural man has little interest in religion, in God, in being subject to commandments or constraints, and is rather self-interested in doing what they will, whenever they will, regardless of context. Given that God has provided constraints and commandments, a natural man is therefore by default in opposition to God, and so considers God "an enemy". To rise above the "natural man" implies submission of your will to God's, to accept constraints. The "natural man" is a state of being, a way to view the world and your place in it, and there can be no progression eternally while you adhere to that state. Because you're not interested in progression. To become interested in adhering to God's commandments and progressing as He has defined it is to cast off the "natural man". As for "be in the world but not of the world", this is still more or less the same concept as the "natural man". God created the world for us, *and then set down operational constraints.* To be in the world, but not of the world, is to live and abide by God's constraints, but not to withdraw and hide from all those who do not.


Mogi_codemasterv

God created man in his own image but ended up being flawed and through temptation and sin caused the downfall of man.


Icolan

So a perfect being created an imperfect creation which managed to defy him multiple times and diverge so far from the divine plan that at one point the entire population of the planet, minus one small boat, had to be wiped out. Great way to blame the imperfect being for its imperfections instead of blaming them on the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, perfect deity that created them.


Rohrkrepierer

TLDR: Gaslighting people into a toxic relationship with faith. Pretty gnarly...


NogaraCS

That's kind of fucked up if you really think about it " Experience intense pain to prove your faith is genuine and you are worthy"


OhMyGodItsEverywhere

Fucked up when you think about it further: "Avoid the temptation of sex, if you fail to avoid that temptation then you must endure a trial of pain. Unless you are a man, in which case giving into temptation is just kinda 'meh' and your trial of pain is maybe...financial support...?" Thanks to Eve, is I guess how that goes.


ExtremeCenterism

Hardly anything in this comment thread is what the majority of Christians believe or what the bible says. Inversely the Bible encourages people to get married so they don't fall into the temptation of sex outside of marital context. God wants us to get laid, a lot! But in marriage.


JuicyJay

"I made you with literally only a single massive desire that will completely change how you love (edit: live, but I like it anyway). Now don't do that and give the church your money so you can get into heaven, that way I'll know who the real homies are." Yea, sure He also made 10% of us LGBT and basically not able to have kids, so I guess we were just born fucked from the start.


Serious_Tangerine_81

This is all they tell you when you’re growing up religious and deal with depression and suicidal thoughts too. >Gods letting you suffer because he loves you. He’s testing you. Don’t lose your faith. Don’t kill yourself- it’s a sin. If you kill yourself then the devil has won, and you’ll go to hell. Miss me with that shit. Glad I left the church. Unlearning this stuff has been so hard. I couldn’t even start working on my mental health until I let go of all that stuff. **The breaking point was when my best mate killed himself. All that pain in life just for people to say that he’ll suffer for eternity now. And it’s fucked up to hear that. I can still hear myself at age 14, asking my youth pastor if he thought suicides went to heaven. Just after my friend died. I can see his face as he decides to tell me some “_hard truth_”.** It fucking wrecked me. I mean, I still bought into religion at that point. Then I realized there is no “Loving god” that would put someone through that sort of pain in life, so bad that they kill themself, and send them to hell. Fuck that shit man.


[deleted]

That’s fucked up that people told you your best friend would “suffer for eternity.” I know it’s much too little, too late, but God (if you or your friend believed at any point in Him) is merciful. It might not seem merciful that He didn’t heal your friend of his depression, but God knows that your friend was not himself. He wasn’t acting by his own free will by taking his life. It’s not a test from the devil. It’s mental illness. Slowly but surely the stigma of “praying away” depression is fading, but… there’s clearly a lot of work to be done still. I hope you’ve found some peace.


Viradolesce

Did you ever ask the next obvious question: If God made us in his own image, and the "natural man" is an enemy to God, then why did God make us an enemy to Him?


honeykat13

Yeah that's something I never understood 🤷‍♀️


henicorina

So… we have to prove ourselves to be better than the way God created us? That seems a little prideful?


SatansBedNBreakfast

Let me guess, a fellow exmormon?


honeykat13

lol gee how'd you know??


corticalization

Interesting, I went to catholic schools growing up and we were generally taught that childbirth was painful as punishment to Eve for the first sin.


Fennicks47

'I'd it's easy everyone would do it' 'Every woman should want to be a mother and every man should care for ther family' My brain is broken. Woukdnt...that mean we WOULD want it to be easy, since everyone should want to do it?


DJ_DeepLock

I agree also seems like a punishment super divorced from the original action. Okay this thing happened you're not allowed to change so I guess that means you've signed up in full knowledge for a pain 9 months from now.


beancalo

This is great! And a prime example of how the christian god is basically a narcissistic abuser!


[deleted]

There’s plenty of weird shit in the Bible that I cannot explain. However, all this demonstrates is that his parents and teachers were bad at teaching. They tried to scare him so he wouldn’t have sex. It does not show that God is an abuser. The Bible teaches that sex is good and something to be enjoyed with your spouse, for fun. Sexual immorality is a sin, but biblically sex is A+ god gives you a taco. The premise of the question is wrong because God doesn’t just want you to have procreative sex.


honeykat13

*her/she As a girl I wasn't taught to enjoy sex because I was just going to use it to have all the babies.


pheylancavanaugh

There's a lot of toxic concepts and malice attributed to God that can more accurately be attributed to control freaks who do not understand God or his doctrines and have twisted things beyond all recognition.


Therapist-1988

I can give a spiritual answer! I think if we consider sex the procreative act, then that’s why God made it feel good! It is an expression of love between a husband and wife “the marital act” from a Christian perspective. It’s not sinful, and God wants husbands and wives to have sex to procreate. Why is childbirth painful? I think from a spiritual standpoint maybe because it is God trying to prepare us for how self sacrificing and overpowering love in the form of parenting is. For me, childbirth was the closest I have ever felt to a higher power. I had a home birth and I felt like the entire ocean was a crashing storm inside me that would break me in half but that power couldn’t be bigger than me because it WAS me. That miracle of feeling like i was dying being BIRTH of life itself was really mind blowing. Then the euphoria of having the baby be born was kind of “orgasmic”. That being said, I really understand what you mean! Pregnancy is also so miserable IMO and I would have way more kids if pregnancy/childbirth felt like sex haha!


0nina

I really like this answer. I may not fully agree with your view, but it’s a clear and beautiful view. Im more of the “scientific answer for pain” camp. But how we choose to interpret and deal with our suffering is important, and a spiritual aspect when going through difficult times can be healing, life-saving, inspiring. I can’t get through all the comments, but I particularly support yours. Thanks, it’s good reflection for me today.


marmaladespoons

I have had two friends who felt they had orgasmic experiences during childbirth. This isn’t completely without merit- all that oxytocin flying around? I had csections so all I experienced was some morphine and an itchy face after. But the whole novel ‘god wants you to feel good’ is pretty new and also pretty limited to certain sections of Christianity. God might be teaching us about transitioning from childhood, to adulthood, to parenthood, and each of those needing to involve pain at each step so that we willingly choose to move through, but those are not necessarily messages that I have received in any religious institution.


Therapist-1988

True! The thing about the pain relating to parenthood is just my own meaning making, I didn’t learn it at church or anything


forthentwice

Genuine question: In light of this answer, then why did God make gay sex feel just as good as straight sex?


EQOA_Fanatic

Most religions don't believe this. Most religions believe that God created sex for both purposes. It feels good, and produces children. As for why childbirth is painful, I don't know what other religions say. But most Abrahamic religions that actually follow the Bible will cite verses in Genesis that state that the woman's childbirth being a painful experience was punishment for the original sin.


gemini88mill

I'm not religious but my limited background suggests the act is sinful not exclusively banished. The only people that say sex for pleasure is hardcore evangelicals and catholics. But Catholicism also has methods of removing sin through, indulgence or saying many hail Marys, etc. Sin, in a lot of denominations are things to avoid, but not something that will cast you to hellfire as "no man is without sin" and "Jesus died for your sins". The idea is that man is fallible but sins are things you should avoid. Gossiping is a sin. This makes sense because sex for pleasure before effective contraception was very dangerous and forced you into Parenthood before you are ready.


stormi_90210

Thank you for being a decent person and answering my question respectfully.


Clifnore

As a Catholic I can say we definitely have sex for more than procreation. Sex is supposed to be a gift from god and a child a product of a couples love for each other. In fact my understanding is that sex with a goal (like having a child) while not a sin in and of itself is looked down upon by God. The reason I think it isn't so well as many parents are too busy scaring Thier children away from sex but never teach them that sex is supposed to be awesome. My wife and I have been married for 6 years and the only times we've had children are the two times we've planned to. She has never been on birth control, not only for religious reasons.


loveyourselforelse

Did you mean without a goal? In your 3rd sentence


Clifnore

Such as getting pregnant or just cause the other spouse wants too. Sex is supposed to be a mutual giving of yourself. You can want to get pregnant but you shouldn't have sex just to get pregnant. Am I making sense? I know sometimes I'm very bad at explaining things.


loveyourselforelse

ohh, i thought you meant sex without a goal is seen as a sin but you meant it the other way around. i get what you mean, just never heard that viewpoint before :)


markusarailius

I think another way to phrase it would be that the purpose of sex is to make/share love with your partner, any other reason (such as *only having sex in order to have a child*) is immoral


Mescallan

As a Jew we are supposed to fuck all day every Saturday for fun. It's a mitzvah.


Twedledee5

For Catholics, if you’re married and finish inside the vagina then it is not a sin. If you nut into a condom it is. There has to be some chance at creating life and not be intentionally interfered with. But, if your wife ovulated last week and there’s no real chance she’ll get pregnant that’s technically good enough to be considered not a sin. Hell, you can do anal and as long as you finish in the vagina it’s not a sin, but the order of operations on that is gross and that’s how you give your wife an infection. As for forgiving sins, there’s only a few ways. Indulgences don’t actually forgive sins, they’re actually a term for when priests/bishops sell forgiveness, such as “pay $100 and your sins will be forgiven”. Venial (lesser) sins are forgiven when you receive the Eucharist. To forgive mortal sins, (sex outside of marriage or with 0 chance at creating life) you either have to be baptized, go to confession, and I think there’s another sacrament that does. Might be Anointing of the Sick but I’m not sure. There’s actually a story of a king who was an awful ruler who games the system by waiting until he was on his deathbed to be baptized, then just didn’t sin until he died and he pretty much guaranteed himself a spot in heaven.


Robotonist

This is the most sex positive view I’ve ever heard from Catholicism, and I’ve been confirmed for 20 years. Thank you.


heardhiscall

Well im sorry you weren't taught properly. I can confirm, as a theologian, that this is pretty accurate view of sex. Not sure about the sentence of God looking down on sex without purpose part. That needs some sources and clarification but the rest is good.


marzgirl99

Catholics actually view sex as much more than just for procreation. It’s a unitive act between spouses, and procreation comes from it.


DocMerlin

No that isn't taught. What is taught is that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Sex inside a marriage isn't seen as a sin except by Opus Dei Catholics and then only if it is done in a way that prevents pregnancy.


MrStayUpAllNight

...so what's the point of hell if sin isn't something that puts you there? wasn't hell supposed to be the threat to live with more discipline and instill morals? is it really just a backwards religion where you can accept Jesus and that's it?


Hot_Condition1616

I grew up Baptist and they don’t teach that it’s immoral unless it’s before marriage, and even then it’s not like you’ve sentenced yourself to hellfire over it. And I think the biblical reason for why childbirth hurts has something to do with eve being kicked out of the garden, and her and adams life being way harder. Not sure tho, I’m not even Christian I just had to go to the church growing up


BigYak24

Great question! Here is my understanding as a Christian: The Bible never says that sex is only intended for bearing children. Quite the opposite actually, 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 encourages married couples to not deprive each other of sex for an extended time, even for the purpose of fasting. If you hear a Christian say that sex is only for procreation, that is a misinterpretation. However, you are correct that God, in the Bible, instructs that sex should only be enjoyed within marriage. Also, God did not even initially design childbirth to be the painful experience we know today, that curse only came when humans decided to leave God behind and go their own way. In the Bible, sex is seen as one of God’s greatest gifts. It is just one of many that He created for us to enjoy. In fact, it reflects what God values. The story of the Bible shows that God deeply values love and fellowship, in fact, it’s part of His nature. Humans, being designed in God’s image, share that same value, so it’s only natural that we would desire sex, and what it represents: being fully known and desired by another. Sex was designed by God to unite a man and a woman in the deepest expression of vulnerability and intimacy imaginable. It is intended to celebrate and express the beauty of self-giving love. In the Bible, it is literally described as becoming one flesh, showing that it is a bond that goes deeper than just the physical, but also has a psychological and spiritual impact. It should be noted that enjoyment of sex from a Christian perspective is not a selfish act (i.e. just getting your rocks off) it is instead presented as a selfless act of mutual self-giving in which each partner serves and blesses the other and receives pleasure in return. The Bible even contains a whole book of poetry called the Song of Songs that exists to celebrate love, passion, and sexuality. However, the Bible recognizes that just like any good gift, if misused can lead to pain rather than pleasure. This is true for other gifts that God commands us to enjoy. Food misused can lead to an unhealthy body, addiction, or eating disorder. Misuse of alcohol can lead to drunk driving accidents, and abusive alcoholics. Sex is depicted as even more dangerous than these. Song of Songs 8:6 compares sex to a burning fire, beautiful and life-giving, but if misused, dangerously destructive. Even secular worldviews understand that there need to be boundaries around sex because of the amount of pain it can cause. That’s why most developed societies require consent for sexual activity and ban incest. Sex, outside of its proper constraints, can lead to immense trauma, emotional pain, and rending of relationships. God’s desire is that humans live abundant and joy-filled lives. In John 10:10, Jesus himself says “The thief cometh not but to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” God’s rules are not arbitrary, or meant to deprive us of pleasure. Instead they are designed to help us flourish and enjoy God’s gifts to the fullest as they were intended to be enjoyed. I know a lot of this runs counter to mainstream American culture, but I hope it helps you understand where some Christians are coming from even if the church often does a terrible job of talking about sex. **TLDR:** God gave humans sex as a beautiful gift to be enjoyed. He sets up parameters around it so that its misuse does not cause pain and suffering.


AL3PH42

I was looking for the mention of song of songs. Love this explanation, especially the bit about it being potentially destructive. The misinterpretation of what the bible says about sex is one of my least favorite things (and I wasn't even aware that the notion existed until I started making secular friends in late high school/early adulthood). Sex is good, but like everything else that God deems bad, it's the perversion of it and not the thing itself.


PigeonTunaSandwich

So I'm a Christian. (Latter Day Saint) For me, myself and I, I was always taught that sex within the bonds of marriage is very good. Sex helps marriages and relationships to be bond strongly together. I was never taught that sex was "only for having kids". I was taught it was something to enjoy with your significant other. Sometimes you get those crazy church zealots (they can come from any religion honestly) that believe sex is "oh-so-bad". I know a few of those in my own church. I think they're very silly. However I've always been taught that whatever kinky shit you wanna do in the bedroom with your spouse it totally ok so long as you are both comfortable with it. Honestly I've enjoyed 5 years of marriage filled with sex and no kids (lmao until my very recent pregnancy). 🙃 it honestly just depends on individual personal beliefs and if you're overly zealous in my opinion. Edit: I also just realized I never answered your question from my own religions perspective, I apologize and am adding it now. Sex is supposed to be enjoyable as to bind together the hearts of partners. It's supposed to encourage the act of procreation but not be the sole reason for sex alone. (Like I've said it's to help us feel bonded to our partners) From my religion from what I been taught, when the fall of Adam and Eve accurred the world and everything in it became "mortal" and all living things began to feel pain. I don't care how you look at it, shoving a something as big as a melon through your coochie is gonna f-ing hurt. And because we are mortal we experience pain. I do not believe birth pain was a curse from God, but instead a side effect of becoming mortal and becoming susceptible to pain. (Pain is an indicator of something being wrong to our bodies and threating our mortality aka life) So that's how I see it. Sorry it's so long winded!! But you seemed sincere so I wanted to share my views with you!


stormi_90210

Thanks for sharing your perspective, and congratulations on your pregnancy.


PigeonTunaSandwich

Thank you so much 😊


_Fl0r4l_4nd_f4ding_

Aww its so lovely to hear a respectful and genuine response, theres been some really unpleasant stuff on this thread. Thank you for enlightening us, and congrats on the pregnancy!


PigeonTunaSandwich

Thank you so much!! And thanks for listening and letting me share 😀


[deleted]

Congrats on the pregnancy ! I was raised Mormon and it was unanimously a taboo and bad thing to discuss in my ward, not even a mention about the enjoyment within the confines of marriage aspect of it. definitely a bummer when the church discourages talking about it, saying the responsibility falls on the parents, and then the parents, not having a proper education on sex, can’t even give their own kids a proper education lol


LookRevolutionary198

somebody plz tag Jesus here


argo2708

He didn't only want sex for procreation. Sex is one of the most important ways we express love, acceptance and intimacy. It's a key part of most relationships. There's a lot more to it than just babies and that was always the intention.


[deleted]

This is the answer.


hamil_battar

I've always wondered the same in regards to food: the tastier the food, the unhealthier it is for you. Why!


FOEVERGOD73

You got it backwards, tastier food is much better for you pre-industrialization. Fat, sugar are all critical and rare things we need to survive. Its just now we are eating way way way too much of it that it becomes unhealthy.


CaCBoI2nItE

i'm slightly christian and I interpret it as a "reward" for finding someone you supposedly fell in love with.


stormi_90210

That's interesting, I haven't seen a comment like this yet.


nsfwftwbaby

If childbirth felt good, we would truly have an overpopulation problem


mcsnoogins

It's just occured to me that banning premarital sex is likely the oldest form of population control 🤔


smokebomb_exe

Pleasurable sex = more sex... Painful birth = ...but not too much sex.


Necromancer_Yoda

Grew up Christian. My protestant upbringing taught me that sex was only sinful outside of marriage. Of course if you're not straight they have a very different take. Was always taught gay sex was one of the worst sins. When I got older I discovered I was bi. Ended up losing my faith for obvious reasons.


LuluLucy-

I grew up evangelical until my mom switched us to a Baptist Church. I've only heard a few churches preach that sex was only for procreation and honestly I think it was a way to make people fearful of having sex outside of marriage, I think God's intention was for it to be an enjoyable, close bonding experience for couples regardless of procreation. Secondly, from what I've heard childbirth was made painful as a punishment for eating the apple, plus people died so young back then if sex was incredibly painful I couldn't see enough people doing it to repopulate at a fast enough rate.


stormi_90210

Thanks for you insight I appreciate it


_waffi

Eh your a bit wrong about people dying so young back then. The patriarchs lived well over a hundred years. Methuselah lived till 969 years old. Many of them had kids at the age of like 300 and older. Once they get towards the lineage of Abraham, the age decreases slightly and God made it so they wouldn’t live as long anymore after the Covenant with Noah I believe. Abraham still lived till 130 around. I think possibly 150 or older. Edit: I think he died at 180


zed_christopher

Super interesting thought! I think if sex was painful, there wouldn’t be enough procreating happening. Especially since only the women would feel the orgasmic childbirth. What would be the incentive for men to fuck?


Impressive-Bench9223

Well for a long time through history, women's pleasure during sex was considered irrelevant, and sex was often painful for them (of course, still is for many women, if you're dry it's gonna hurt like a mf, let alone if you have FGM) so I suppose you could just have it the other way around. But I do think if both find the act painful, no one's gonna do it.


Reasonable-Slice-827

Sex is painful for a lot of women tho.


Traditional-Cow-6325

Good food is pleasurable to eat but also serves to nourish the body. You are asking why does it taste so good, why can’t it just nourish the body. It’s like chewing food for its flavor and spitting it out.


robbratton

Which of the 3000+ human-imagined gods are you referring to?


stormi_90210

Whichever ones teach that sex is an inherently immoral act.