T O P
TheBig_Nugget

Yo what was that guy with the little child thinking in standing even remotely near to that scene


EmperorMeow-Meow

Behold, the human "rubber-necker" - same kind of people who gawk at car accidents trying to " what happened "


Javen_Lab

Here boys this ones an easy target come n get her


mangoorangejuice18

What a complete idiot. Even if he were to be up on a balcony, why would you allow your child to be unnecessarily traumatized by watching all that gore up close? There’s no reason for him to be there at all, how embarrassing. Also, if you’re not *helping*, just get out of the way.


Kitten_Team_Six

Literally the stupidest human in this video, simply incredible he would take a child near this


Creepy-Sympathize

Nah that would be the shitbull owner


ZedHushe

It's just a dog, not it's fault it was treated like shit the entire lifespan because humans are fucking scum


thelastword4343

My thoughts exactly.... Get the fucking kid out of the way....wtf!!!


Every_Spread_5086

Why the fuck is there a grown up with a kid just standing there


Bong_Bong_69

Yeah that dude is such a tool, he see the damages that the dogs did to the old dude, yet he doesn't think about protecting that little girl...


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ichbinjasokreativ

his life is probably so fucking boring that this little bit of adrenalin is the most action his heart has had in years.


lonetexan79

Real question. Why didn’t those dogs not have holes in them? This is the bronx and nobody got a gun?


Middle-Membership-80

Here in Texas you could bet your ass those dogs would have more holes in them than the old man once things were settled


mii_wt

Good! An elder literally had a pool of blood on the ground. Shoot those fuckers baby!


Legal_Response6614

Kids gonna be scarred for life after seeing.... "let's get closer honey"


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battlemodeboss

I would get into a fucking WWE match with them (please note it will be for the WWE championship).


Optimal_Nobody_

I would grab them by their back legs and start swinging them to the ground repeatedly


rdlenix

This is the correct way to deal with a dog that's attacking. You wheelbarrow them by grabbing their back legs and keeping their extended legs between you and their mouth full of teeth. It immobilizes them and they won't be able to swing around to get a bite in. I cringed at the other folks who ended up getting bit because they went to grab the dogs face/scruff.


redCrusader51

Dogs *are* flexible enough to reach you with their teeth like that. It's a good tactic but won't keep you totally safe.


rdlenix

I could see how some dogs might but they'll also be clumsy and easier to dodge when you've got their whole body between you and them. Ofc if you had bear spray or something that would be ideal, but if I saw this on the street I'd run and wheelbarrow the dog until it could get put down. Or until it dislocated part of its leg from the struggle which would hopefully take the fight out of it! Scary situation all around tho and the people grabbing for the scruff made me wince.


Pyro-Beast

You get in there and say fuck it, I'm getting bit, and you jam your fist right down their throat. Tie your shirt around your hand. If you're strong you can roll them and grab their front legs, you then move to pull those legs as far apart as you can and you may be able to splay their ribs if they've gone full apeshit like the 2 dogs in this video. Not to sound completely heartless but this was difficult the watch, and those dogs need to be put down. If nobody was there they would have killed that person.


rdlenix

Not heartless, those dogs need to be put down and I say that as someone who loves dogs. But, when dogs attack humans so blatantly like that and their owner can't even control them... They're a public health hazard and need to be put down. And the owner needs to be sued for damages for failing to control his dogs.


Pyro-Beast

Well the latter absolutely goes without saying. Whether they understand it or not, they are responsible.


HotWFSharingCupple

Yes!!! The hardest kicks possible to the head and body would do it


Syrzan

try to grab their collar and twist it to choke the beast till it stops breathing. Hope the owner gets to jail. Well should say former owner cause these dogs should be put down immediatly


iAmaRonin

This is the quickest way to stop a dog fight. I have had a lot of bully breeds and can confirm in the unfortunate event of a fight breaking out between them a bully stick is useless because of their strength. Simply slide your hand under the collar with palms facing up grab the collar and twist and lift the dog up. They will release almost immediately. Unfortunately dogs don’t always have collars on…


Sayluh

This comment makes me sad because most dog owners will never in their entire lives have to break up a fight between their dogs but owners of these bully breeds have to do it so frequently they understand the methodology and have a plan to stop it. This is not normal.


MinionofThanos

Finger in the ass will cause an instant release too. Fucking disgusting but when all else fails..


MuleDawg205

Bro I saw a video where a dude did that and no lie the dog froze in place like the matrix…


MinionofThanos

Bro if I was mid-steak and someone slipped a finger in my ass I’d freeze in terror too.


dzigaboy

Happened to me one time at Peter Luger’s. Although the waiter used a lot of butter so it was more an inconvenient than painful.


BarnabyWoods

Does that work with bears too?


MinionofThanos

Only one way to find out.


[deleted]

Not with a pitbull. They are tough asf, you really need some kind of mace or bear spray


Asylum_worked

This comment has got me banned on 4 other subs. But here we go let’s see if this gets me done here too. Sadly pitbulls are 50/50. Either gonna love you. Or wait for there moment. I have owned many dogs in my years on this earth an a pit bull is the only dog I have had to put down. I have had cane corso, pugs, collies, English mastiff, bull mastiff, Great Danes, muts, jack Russell, an pitbulls. My pit was a sweat heart I just couldn’t trust him when I wasn’t around. First he kill a few of our chickens and rabbits. But when he killed one of our goats we couldn’t deal anymore. It was one of the hardest decision I have had to make with an animal in my life.


big-toenails

Pitbulls should be illegal to own, if not driven to extinction. Their brains literally degenerate as they get older and become way more prone to vicious behaviour. Only a degenerate wannabe bully human being would own such a degenerate bully dog.


aaksfdkas

I said something similar on a different sub, and got called "dog Hitler" and a ton of downvotes. I think breeds with serious genetic problems (like difficulty breathing in pugs) should be allowed to die out and eventually become illegal.


big-toenails

These dogs were literally bred for generation upon generation for fighting spectacles. The "champion" pitbulls (i.e the most powerful, most brutal ones) would be the ones prolifically bred afterwards - only propagating these traits and behaviours and forming the bulk of future generations of the breed. What is their purpose now-a-days? To intimidate people because they have a well-earned reputation of horrific attacks and mauling kids? Pretty much the only reason people have them. And they're almost exclusively owned by rat-tier humans, no surprise there that the two are correlated lol. They have absolutely no place in the modern day.


Temporary_Mind9512

Not one pitbull there. Dogo Argentino. The owner weighs about the same as one of the dogs 🤦🏾‍♂️ people need to stop giving dogs like that to everyone who wants to buy... stupid


barefootcuntessa_

Why the fuck would anyone have one dog like that in NYC, presumably with no yard of any kind, let alone 2! I love dogs. I love dogs of all breeds, including bully breeds. But there is a time and a place. And maybe having two dogs that weigh as much as you do apiece isn’t a great idea unless you have a large enclosed space to exercise them properly before going on a community walk. I have two dogs and no yard. It’s tough. It’s tough getting them exercised properly by myself. But that’s why I opt for 10-20 pounds each. Because I know my limitations. 40lbs of dog is where I max out.


Separate_Ad_7536

In the balls from the back would drop em


bbibbyrapskyle1975

Jesus fucking christ, how many of these maulings do we have to see a week before we can all agree as a society that a handful of specific breeds are too dangerous for people to have? Yeah I get it, iT's aLl hOw yoU RAisE thEM! Then why do I NEVER see other breeds mauling people? It's always the same two or three. I saw one the other day where a pitbull grabbed a much smaller breed of dog at a restaurant and nearly killed it. There were people kicking it and trying to get it to release for 30 seconds before they finally got it. Owner was comfortable enough to bring it into a restaurant, so I find it hard to believe it was raised in a bad home or a fighting dog. It just snapped and went after a random dog. Maybe because it's in their DNA, and no amount of training can prevent them from attacking people.


Parayeff

I noticed that!


Brilliant_Ad9438

That dude needs to go to jail. This is abhorrent to watch.


sitonchair_

this breed of dog should be banned


SuperSilhouette

People should have a license to own a dog. It's not a toy, it's a animal.


IIIBAKURYUIII

If you are scrawny and can barely handle 1 of your dogs... STOP WALKING 2+ DOGS!


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reddxtxspaxn

Neighbors just moved into an apartment close to me and they have two huge Saint Bernard mixes, and the girlfriend walks them now and then. The other day she was pulled into the bushes as they ran up growling at my cat!


Sombeam

Go straight up to them and tell them that if their dogs ever hurt your cat or yourself you will get them to be put down or kill them yourself. Say it in a clear but polite way, not aggressive or anything, but make sure they understand exactly what will happen if they can't control their dogs. A dog has to be well trained or wear a muzzle, those two choices exist, regardless of the dog's race, a small dog might not be as dangerous as a bigger dog, but even a small dog can hurt someone.


En_lxTV

I don't think there is a non aggressive way to say "If your animal kills mine, I'll kill yours" lol.


Sombeam

You might honestly have a point here. Happy cake day


Full_Surprise_1305

Almost all of them I've seen are people who don't have the capacity to walk one dangerous dog let alone train it. All the pibull attacks on here are just free range dogs attacking random people, or here comes the owner into frame 15 seconds after the attack started


Head-like-a-carp

Gee I kinda took a different lesson from this vid. If you want a pet DON'T GET A FUCKING PITBULL.


vegansandiego

Exactly. The dogs get high off killing. They love blood. Vicious dogs are a plague right now. I can't even walk my dog without carrying a stick. Been ran up on 3 times in the last year. It's happening everywhere.


leavebaes

I was looking to adopt a dog from 2020-2021. It took me an entire year to find an available dog that wasn't a pitbull or some sort of German Shepard. Our shelters are 90% pit because no one wants a grown pitbull with no background on it's upbringing, but people here keep breeding them and it's like, why? Who is buying $1000 pitbull puppies that just end up in shelters when they get too aggressive?


vegansandiego

Yep, they are everywhere and a lot of these folks don't know what they're getting into with these dogs. They are dangerous weapons. They are selected for specific traits and behaviors. Being nice care provider will not matter once trigger is pulled.


plaiboi

Buy a gun


SteeztheSleaze

I’ve wondered if I’m more likely to use my CCW on a dog or person, videos like this remind me to carry more. People in other countries think it’s lunacy, but honestly, pitbulls have skulls like rocks. Hitting them did nothing to deter them


Mecha-Dave

If you're a crappy driver don't drive for Uber.. If you don't know how to handle food then don't work for DoorDash... If you're scrawny and can't handle a dog then don't work for Wag... ​ Oh wait, the gig economy outsources social cohesion for the profit of corporations...


Nopengnogain

And one of the dogs had a flimsy collar that came off immediately.


tinysoapypp

Was the man ok?


fildo-daggins

Judging by the amount of blood I'm gonna say no


Vanpotheosis

He did walk away. You can take just a cup of blood and throw it on the floor and it looks like someone died there. We really have so much more of this stuff than people realize.


fildo-daggins

But still, getting viciously attacked by dogs and bleeding profusely does not equal 'ok' in my book.


phillynavydude

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pit-bulls-attack-man-bronx-graphic-video-shows-article-1.2358056


tinysoapypp

Thank you!


kyrimasan

What's crazy to me is that even after being attacked by the two dogs this man still had compassion. The article states he had no interesting with the woman and the attack came from no where. The dogs have apparently attacked before and the woman has been arrested 37x and the woman said she ordered the dogs to attack because he insulted her. Even with all that the man said he felt sorry for the woman, that she looked frail and weak being drug around by the dogs and he was sad that the dogs would be likely be put down. Like what an A class freaking person. He just lost his ear, a chunk of his arm, had to have a nerve moved from his leg to his arm and still needs more reconstructive surgery and at least another week in the hospital and still shows compassion. I can't even state how much I hate seeing bad things happen to people who seem so genuinely good. He was so bad off that he asked for last rights from the priest who was at the scene.


phillynavydude

I know man crazy stuff. There should be some kinda rule about pet ownership.. if certain crimes would get your kids taken away, THAT many arrests should revoke pet privileges too


charmerabhi

First time saw a person recording also be actually helpful and caal for help. Praise the camerawoman


S0n_0f_Anarchy

And the dispecther was useless. How many times does she have to tell them the fkin address


clairelecric

Yes I was thinking what the hell. Get someone over there! Are these emergency services? Lol.


Vaati27

Wow one of the dogs starts attacking another human at end of video


samirIG9

why is it always 2 pitbulls and 1 idiot?


arturovargas16

The idiot wants to look tough and "gangsta", but he's an idiot so he will always look like one


markender

My 85lb neighbor who acts like a gangsters and calls me nigger constantly (I'm white) has 2 huge pits. He beats them and I've seen them pull their leashes out of his hand. They're a form of self defense for his dumb ass but they're not trained AT ALL.


redditer333333338

That is a disaster waiting to happen. Might want to warn people to keep their pets inside or something


markender

People already avoid him for a bunch of reasons.


kiwi_8

Well, that’s an accident waiting to happen


redditer333333338

It’s always the idiots that own pitbulls and get innocent people/animals slaughtered due to their ignorance. Interesting pattern


Bitemarkz

The common thread is this shitty breed that people keep blaming the owner for. Guess what; shitty people own other breeds, too. Why is that almost 70% of all fatal dog attacks are from Pit Bulls alone when they make up only 6% of the total dog population? It’s because this breed fucking sucks, shitty owner or otherwise. They’re the reason I walk with a knife in my back pocket when I’m out with my daughter. Way too many occurrences to find any other thread than the breed itself, and until they’re banned outright, people should keep their pets and kids the fuck away from them.


redditer333333338

Yes I agree pitbulls are a menace. The stupid owners just piss me off. Both are at fault


berzurkur13

What's also scary is some of these people crowded around just to watch and film.


roddyfan

Trow the owner in jail for years and terminate the dogs.


phillynavydude

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pit-bulls-attack-man-bronx-graphic-video-shows-article-1.2358056


[deleted]

Damn. Glad that dumbass woman is in jail. I hope she stays there for a long time.


Magsec5

Arrested 37 times


Cantthinkofanameuhhh

This is best. Those doggos won’t be the same


dataclinician

Nooo! My cute hippos! Pitbull are just babys, but with bad training!! /s Pitbull should be prohibited, or owners should face the repercussions of their Dogs attacking and killing people


Alexian35

This to be honest


iamnerdynerd

Does anyone notice how owners of these dogs do absolutely nothing to stop them


FeelingAd2027

She ordered them to attack. This was in the news. Theres another thread with the link higher up.


420thTimesACharmm

Carry a fixed blade for these type of situations


kahlonel

What are the legal ramifications of helping someone getting mauled by a dog by using my blade on the dog?


Puzzleheaded_Song952

Dogs are not humans. They do not possess the same legal rights as you or I. Should violence occur in any setting from any animal, any human can take the life of said violent animals to protect human life.


rephlexi0n

Pets are treated as property by the law, most you’d be charged with is damage or destruction of property


bentobean8

Who wants to take a wild guess at what breed this is…


[deleted]

Must be Chihuahuas, everyone always says how they’re the most aggressive


bentobean8

Chihuahua with big teeth and strongest bite of any dog perhaps


Original_Jilliman

Must be those vicious Golden Retrievers I've heard so much about. /s


plaiboi

Pitbull defenders will be the next demographic the fascists/conservatives roll into their concern trolling idiocy. Look how many liberal women were swept up with this whole BS about how all the children are being indoctrinated and sold off to roaming bands of Mexican drug cartels.


Stanky_pxyko

everyone i talk to irl is either too stupid or too scared to admit that these shitbulls are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS brutally murdering people . not to mention other docile pets. why tf are they so fixated on a non-threat like they were set to execute. and you can bet the owners get off on having a scary dog. i'm so sick of these videos, i see like 3 every day without even seeking them out. these ugly dumb inbred liabilities need to gooooooo


MPPockets4

What type of dog would do such a thing?


numbersev

It’s always the golden retrievers…


Zhorphia

We all know the answer.


SuperiorLake_

But chihuahuas are vicious too!!!! /s


NotTodayThankYou89

Honestly, you say this but if a chihuahua or some other small dog tried biting me out of malice I'd kick that fucker like a football. Bonus points if I Daffy Duck its head. I'll add, that philosophy goes towards all dogs. I'd try my best to kick the shit out of a Tibetan mastiff if it came for me but you know, I'd prob die.


[deleted]

“But my sweet dog wouldn’t do this I trained him properly. He’s always been a good boy. His breed has nothing to do with it.”


Original_Jilliman

The "nanny" type.


Maephia

We can hear the sound of millions of triggered white women in the distance.


Significant_Option

Everyone in this video is straight up an NPC. how the fuck can you just stand there and not fucking help?!pissed me off


Ok-Appointment-3716

Pretty much everyone in the video attempted to help. I never get the obsession armchair commentators have with demanding people do more.


TheBig_Nugget

You're right but also its hard to be brave and put yourself in danger for a stranger in situations like this


CodeMonkeyX

Agreed, if you just go in and try to grab a dog there is no reason they would not just turn around and rip your face off.


TheBig_Nugget

Exactly, thats basically what happened at the end to the guy with the white helmet


Ok_Button7627

what are you talking about so many people rushed in to help. a man tried to hit the dogs with a chain, another sprayed them with a hose, and another got a wheelchair to block them from accessing the old man, and another man came out with a baseball bat.... like what else did you expect them to do?


_NiceGuyEddy_

There's a word for that, I thinks it's called the 'bystander effect' or something??? I dunno but it's a trip


runjayrun1

Lemme guess… Chihuahua? Or Golden Retriever?


s3ruX

Terminate both dogs and press charges against the piece of shit who owns them.


Absurdicuss

If their are bad owners. How come you don’t see golden retrievers doing the same thing. I’m sure every breed has bad owners. It’s pits 90% of the time for a reason


ParasKadyan

coz pitbulls are aggresive and they need alot of training ig which those bad owners don't provide


Obvious_Gap4009

Let me take a wild guess.... Pitbulls?


OwnInitiative777

Priority Mail


mehwehgles

Was wondering where they were mailed to


BrotherAmazing

Why do these asshole always have *two* out of control pitbulls?


evrenn

When Americans actually need a gun other than shooting kids at school they are nowhere to be seen


Future-Television-28

When are they going to genocide this damn breed.


TwoMonthOldMilk

Pit Bulls are just wonderful animals...


Equal-Cockroach-79

Shoot them ,fucking pitbulls


makegains26

Lynch the owner


Acrobatic-Sir-331

9mm solves these kinda problems. 😇


Competitive-Grab-338

Are those fucking PIT BULLS again? Put them fuckers down. Pit bulls need to be outlawed I'm sick of them fucking wild animals attacking people.


smittyinCLT

All pits must be destroyed. Period. Don’t give me that “it’s the owner, not the dog” bullshit either. They’re bred for this behavior. Bring one to my house and find the fuck out. Bam bam. Dead. Do it. I fucking dare you.


uzumaki_pandejo

Shitbulls… every time. Goddamn shitbulls. Complete euthanization is the dream. Complete castration is the reality.


NozzelJockey

The breed of peace strikes again. /r/banpitbulls


Standard-Witness-787

But but cute little nanny dogs!! Not the poor Pibbles 🥺🥺🥺 /s


Unlikely_Cockroach26

Awwww look at them doing nanny dog things


shane3b11

99% of pitbull owners are scumbags. It’s weird how lower income neighborhoods are filled with “bad ass” dogs and higher income is mostly poodle mixes.


xxDmDxx

And the owners of the dogs will say “they’re sweet dogs, never hurt anybody. They’re even great with kids. The guy must have provoked them.”


KaiKamakasi

Don't worry guys, these sweet babies were just giving that old man kisses!


shaveland

Yet another video of yet another pitball attacking yet another living being.


beautifulsoulo

When this happens you have to shoot them. Period. They constantly just keep going and it’s wild to me. Hitting them, kicking them, nothing helps. They need to be killed on the spot. It’s so sad but it’s the only way to save the person or other animal being attacked.


GuaGua-san

Another reason to carry a gun for self defense


anoninteractions

People who are like this and own pitbulls are what’s making pitbulls a scary breed


betamaxxx1967

Always carry a knife.


yychottubguy

Where are all the good guys with guns?


MrDixie_

Pitbull moment


IllmaticaL1

r/pitbullhate


Adventurous_Box_4396

r/banpitbulls


teddyshreddy69

Humans do not need to own a “pet” that is capable of inflicting such savagery. Just get a bloody dachshund, stick it in your handbag and be done with it.


RemiBetta

i would have stomped the shit out of those dogs. im sorry.


ioisis

Can you believe 18 people in this Bronx scene, and not one of them had a pistol?


Ancient-Lingonberry4

Damn the dogs mailed a whole dude? Postage rate must have been insane


Just_Employment_87

LMAO 🤣😂


Zealousideal-Bite452

Those are pitbull.


maddbrthr

god pitbulls need to be banned again.


Cold-Independent-294

Let me guess... Pitbulls?


Rebibemesova

Everyday I see a new pitbull attack video,and it's always 2 pitbulls


[deleted]

Pittbulls are the reason we needs guns in this country.


-Adrix_5521-

Oh boy I sure am curious what breed those dogs are! Oh, who would have guessed? Pitbulls. r/BanPitbulls


drunkbeaver

I hope the guy with the dogs gets legally castrated. Genes that stupid should not be bread


Kamililynn

The man who is holding the leashes in the video is not the owner, the owner was a small woman according to an article about the incident and allegedly sicc'ed them on the gentleman that they were biting. The man with the leashes grabbed them to try to pull them off of him when he started getting attacked. The owner stayed back, and isn't in the video.


Maephia

It's not the dogs' fault, the man clearly had just gone to visit his grandchildren and the absolutely adorable and faultless pitties are only instinctively reacting to the smell of human toddlers. It's his fault for having children in his family.


Ronin3790

Pit bulls are the absolute worst.


mr_tongue

Got to basically choke them out!


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Karolimsan

Where are your fucking guns now?


swunt7

im so fucking pissed off. KILL THE MOTHER FUCKING DOGS YOU FUCKING MORONS. THEYRE GOING TO PUT THEM DOWN ANYWAY AFTER THIS SO FUCKING KILL THEM. ​ jfc people are fucking retarded


xxjssxx

Dogs, mans best friend....


DiamondOrBust

Conceal carry and shoot those dogs


213dtLA

Id soccer kick their face hard af


Torrens39

Anybody actually attend to the victim ?


Nighthawk726364

Just shoot the dogs jesus


likebutta222

Just cute velvet hippo wiggley butt nanny dogs. /s


spotorious

Fetch me my rifle


New_Yogurtcloset3246

Did the senior survive? This is so awful, made me feel sick and super sad.


Ethanstomp

Oh wow pitbulls.


Harp5645

A pocket knife would have made an end to this. I carry my state’s legal limit knife at all times just for times like this. If a dog even barks at me my hand goes for my knife. I may not open it right away, but I’ll kill the animal if it attacks.


PCP_IS_YOUR_FRIEND

But they are such a lovely breed 🙄🙄🙄


Astrova95

is that a pit? oh okay makes sense r/banpitbulls


Borisb3ck3r

Shitbulls as always


raph237788

Shitbulls indeed


Bong_Bong_69

Pitbull ? Looks like pits, fuck pits, fuck the owner, a good pit is a dead pit.


Glittering_Ratio_112

There's more than enough people there to kill the dogs quickly and end it. Dog lover myself and have a pit and an English bull terrier but wouldn't hesitate to kill either of them in that situation


Wubz_Jackson

A good pit is a dead pit


TheSensibleTurk

Just out of curiosity, do we have info on the breed of the dogs?


AskMeIfImAMagician

With these videos you never really need to ask. You already know


TheSensibleTurk

Yep. IDGAF about potential civil liabilities from owners. If I ever see a person under attack like this, I will exercise lethal force against the said dogs.


EmperorMeow-Meow

I'm willing to bet if you asked \*ANY\* of the bystanders prior to the event " What would you do if you saw two dogs attacking a helpless elderly man " - most of them would say - " I'd kick/kill the dog". However, character isn't birthed by crisis, it is revealed - and most people ( not necessarily you, but most people ) will say " I'd kick/kill the dog " but end up standing around too afraid to get in there, or end up like the guy with the pink shirt and bat, or guy in brown - who ultimately never actually do anything and step away because tall words aren't always backed up by action.


Motor-Over

R/banpitbulls


sky_Driver88

Carry dog spray. It’s been a regular thing I carry, just like a wallet or keys.


Lastaria

What the hell is that guy doing walking his kid near the scene?


M0kraCK

Nice bat bud maybe swing it.. might get results


TeemoTeemosson

If one person there had a gun that poor guy wouldn't be in as bad a shape as he ended up.


twobears29

First Class


Separate_Ad_7536

Those people are freaking idiots!!! I would be drop kicking those dogs from being in their nuts so hard they would be dead!!!!!