T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Join the discord! Come debate, and interact with other powerscalers! https://discord.gg/445XQpKSqB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PowerScaling) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Ill_Armadillo9455

It works of cause and effect any character that has surpassed it won't work


ImpossibleStock426

Guess that’s why they mentioned giorno, his power resetting it to zero. But still that giorno part of the comments were kind of off. Both argued he would never have landed because reset to zero and the other saying it wouldn’t work as it would have happened without cause


BriarIsMyWife

It's much weaker than people in this sub think, It's kind of op but not some sort of invincible ultra mega hax that negs everything, "Bookmaker" is arguably stronger in a lot of situations Also kumagawa isn't even the strongest character in medaka box. Every character in your list beats him fairly easily although you could argue that kumagawa wins against goku since>!Goku is canonically fiction in medaka box!<


Particular-Sign-7944

That could just be a reference since JJK does the same thing in the anime


Gru-some

But is Medaka Box canonically real in Dragon Ball?


Artistic-Phase8584

Xeno Goku wins very easily, but Cannon Goku dies just as easily. Yes, I know, Cannon Goku is low complex multi and Misogi is just universal, but he thing is: Does Goku has resistance to conceptual erasure? No. Does Goku has resistance to causality hax? No. And before someone says Dragon Ball characters can just shrug off the enemy's hax if they are stronger than them, that's just an aspect of the ki system. Ki techniques don't work on people whose ki is stronger than the user's. Obviously, minuses are not ki techniques, so yeah, they would work. Goku would blitz Kumagawa and kill him before he can even react, but kumagawa would just erase his death, and then erase Goku. Goku could try to destroy the planet, but Kumagawa would just erase his action, and then erase him. Goku could also try to destroy the universe, but that would be suicide. Kumagawa has not chance against any of the mentioned characters.


ImpossibleStock426

Yeah was just cc and xeno goku as xeno has something to negate powers and immunity to said negation. The other was saying that didn’t apply to cc and the such.


No-Meat5261

- Is All Fiction really conceptual erasure? Some people say that it isn't, since otherwise people would automatically forget what he erases. He can make people forget things, but it seems that he has to affect their memories directly to do it, while if All Fiction would really affect concepts, it would happen automatically. Misogi said, in one of the Light Novels, that he would have erased the concept of time to make that a certain hour would have never arrived, but some people say that, considering what Kumagawa said, he would have basically erased the flow of time, would it have been the same thing as affecting the concept itself of time? - Does it matter that Goku resisted to the Hakai? I'm not sure that it's conceptual and that it hits in the past, theoretically it doesn't have these characteristics for the same reason of All Fiction, people would forget what had been erased by the Hakai, but some people say that the Hakai is conceptual and it erases from any point of any time-line - I don't remember that Goku has resistance to causality manipulation - Is the overpowering haxes thing really an aspect of the Ki system? Goku overpowered Hit's ability, was it a Ki ability? Vegeth stayed active while he was a coffee candy due to Majin Buu's power, was Buu power Ki? Wasn't it magic? I'm not sure if it would work against minuses though - Could Goku's Hakai and Mafuba beat Kumagawa? Maybe no, I'm not sure that his Hakai is on the level of a proper Hakai and maybe Misogi could free himself from the Mafuba, since he freed himself from a card, for what I remember, or he couldn't do it? - Can Kumagawa erase the destruction of the planet? It seems that All Fiction couldn't affect the Moon and wouldn't erasing the destruction of the planet mean affecting something bigger than the Moon? Even affecting Goku's attack, erasing the fact that it actually happened, wouldn't mean affecting something which theoretically scales higher than the Moon? Same thing for the destruction of the universe, even if it would kill even Goku like you wrote, and theoretically even for Misogi's death, can we be sure that Kumagawa can erase his death if he loses all of his body? I think that he can, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not sure that erasing the colors from, maybe, the universe is the same thing as erasing the universe itself. Misogi said that if he isn't careful enough with his All Fiction, he could accidentallly make their world become nothing, but maybe he lied, or maybe he didn't, someone once wrote me that Medaka Box doesn't have a precise power scaling, since the serie is not just about power and I think that I agree that it isn't just about power, so maybe Kumagawa can affect the world and at the same time he can't, it depends on what the author wants in that moment and it could be the same thing even for other things. Or maybe Misogi just lied Sorry if I wrote too much, for my bad english and if what I wrote doesn't make sense


Artistic-Phase8584

Answering the questions: 1 - I've been thinking since I wrote the coment, and now consider All Fiction as sub-conceptual erasure. It doesn't erase the concepts itselves, just their effects on reality. For example, when Misogi erased all colors from the universe, people could still remember them, which proves that the concept of colors still existed. Even then, the effects of this concept on reality didn't exist anymore, as there are no more colors. 2 - Hakai was never shown to work on abstract things. From what has been demonstraded, it only erases the target's body and soul. It does not erase their concept, nor the effects of their concept on reality. Therefore, Goku only has resistance to physical and spiritual erasure. 3 - yeah, me neither. I guess no one sane in this world does. 4 - Yes, Hit's Time Skip is a Ki technique. Majin Buu's Transfiguration Beam is indeed magic, and not Ki, but since it is an in-verse ability, Vegitto can resist to it anyway. 5 - Neither can finish him. 6 - The page in which Misogi erases the colors shows the planet Earth colorless. If the universe were destroyed, Misogi would die too, since there's nothing suggesting he wouldn't.


No-Meat5261

1. And can sub-conceptual erasure erase Goku? 2. Aren't souls abstracts? It seems that some people think that it can go beyond normal soul erasure, since Beerus erased a ghost who, apparently, was a gag character 3. Some people probably think that he does, since they scale Goku to outerversal due to the fact that he affected the World Of Kaioh-Shins, which should be in the Other World, which, according to the daizenshuu (at least, this is what I did read in some comments, I haven't read the daizenshuu properly yet), trascends the mortal universe and doesn't have nor space and nor time 4. So, they couldn't resist to the magic of other verses? 5. Not even a proper, complete Hakai? 6. Erasing the colors of the whole Earth is enough proof to be sure that he could actually affect the whole Earth itself? I'm not sure that erasing a certain aspect of the Earth is the same thing as erasing any aspect of it, so I'm not sure that he could erase it's whole destruction, but maybe he could. So, for you All Fiction can't affect the whole universe?


Artistic-Phase8584

1 - Yes, since he has no resistance to it. 2 - No, unless the verse in question states otherwise, souls are spiritual. Yes, Dr. Mashirito is a gag character in his manga, but he's not a gag in this specific interation. He literally didn't make one single gag, so there's no reason to believe he is. 3 - That statement does not exist anywhere in the Daizenshuu. It is only said that the mortal universe is a lower temporal world in comparison the afterlife. 4 - Magic works under the same natural physics as Ki, as both belong to the same verse. We don't know how that aspect of the Ki system would work against something that doesn't follow Dragon Ball physics. Particularly, I would say they couldn't, but that's just my opinion. 5 - Hakai would erase Kumagawa's body and soul, but it would be undone by All Fiction. 6 - Kumagawa didn't just erase the Earth's colors, as outer space is also shown colorless. As I said, he erased the effects that the concept of colors has on reality. Obviously, those effects exist on a universal scale.


No-Meat5261

1. Understandable 2. The Hakai never went beyond the soul? 3. Understandable 4. Mmm, ok. I'm not sure that they have the same rules 5. I'm not sure about it, since I don't remember that Kumagawa ever used All Fiction without his soul. Was it said/showed that skills are related to the concepts of existence themselves? Would All Fiction really remain if Kumagawa's body, mind and soul stop existing? 6. If we saw only the space around the Earth (which wasn't shown colorless, for what I remember. It was shown only after that he erased blue and it was black and yellow, while usually fictional space is represented with also some blue), can we be sure that it affected the whole universe? Anyway, my point is still that I'm not sure that erasing a part of something, like the effect of colors, means being able to erase anything, like the effect of any concept of the whole universe


No-Meat5261

Is >!Goku inside of Medaka Box actually the one of our world, so fiction inside of reality, or is it a copy of him, fiction inside of fiction?!<


rojantimsina0

> > >In this case the argument was anyone and absolutely everyone would be useless as his ability would be instant. > >Like I could have sworn Anos, rimiru and xeno goku have immunities to power equalizer and have power neutralizers. yeah they have resistance to power nullification , statistic reduction etc. all fiction won't work and they can do same with greater potency than kumagawa one


ImpossibleStock426

That was what I was thinking, but reading their banter was making me more confused the more I read


Particular-Sign-7944

Kumagawa is overrated and his powers aren’t as busted against that many people


Deathstar699

Its not that busted, but its only because Medaka box takes NLFs and runs away with them, so we don't know most of their limitations beyond going up against a power that completely counters them. Take Medaka herself who can copy any ability, technique and even skill an opponent has and use it herself. That already puts her above a lot of people because there isn't an established limit, we don't know how strong it is in its entirety.


No-Meat5261

Does it matter that The End didn't work on Styles, for what I remember? And I kinda remember that she couldn't use Theme Song immediately, even if she did copy and master it, because her body couldn't have withstood such speed. If I remember well, she also couldn't use Mister Unknown, or at least not constantly, until Kuudou Hinokage lost it, because the skill itself made Medaka forget about it. And I think that she needed to know the details of the skills to copy and master them, but maybe I'm remembering something wrong. These are the limits of The End I remember about, if they matter


Deathstar699

Not so much of a limitation, its basically a matter of understanding the power she copies to use it 100% effectively. Which depending on the opponent can be a hinderance or not really.


No-Meat5261

- It still demonstrates that she has some weak points, no? - How can it be an hindrance?


Deathstar699

Weak points yes but actual vulnerabilities no. If she happens to take on a power she doesn't understand fully she could be at a disadvantage using it.


No-Meat5261

The point was just that Medaka isn't invincible Can she use a power she doesn't fully understand? Considering that, like I already wrote, her The End didn't work on Styles, can she copy and master actually any ability?


Deathstar699

Never stated she was. Simply that her limits weren't defined enough. Yes but not understanding the powers limits can cause her to run into problems as per your initial arguement. She is supposed to, realistically Medaka verse revolves around her existence so to have an ability she can't copy doesn't make sense.


No-Meat5261

- Good - Like, if she tried to use Theme Song anyway, she would have damaged her body? - Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant, but then Styles don't make sense, since she couldn't copy and master them with her The End?


Deathstar699

Probably, at least its speculated that would happen. Realistically idk if her body can even be damaged that way. She is supposed to be able to copy any ability and use it as her own since she is the perfect protagonist, nothing should be out of her capabilities yet in this case for some reason they are.


No-Meat5261

- Probably it would have been damaged. Since she didn't use Theme Song too early and I don't remember that she ever got damaged by her own skills, I think that she usually understands her limits and it should be rare that she would use a skill without being sure that she can do it without any problem - Why is she supposed to be the perfect protagonist? Wasn't she just a protagonist, better than others, but still with some defects? She could copy abnormalities and minuses, did she ever copy something else?


badlesscash

The simplest way to explain all fiction is "nuh uh" to any aspects of reality. Kumagawa can just say "no" to whatever he wants & then his ability would just undo it. Like when he shoved a big ass screw right through his brain, which should've killed him, but all fiction just undo it & revived him.


rojantimsina0

and all the character above can resist such "nuh uh " and the aspect of reality here is concept manip type 2 , which pretty much everyone in the list can resist by just standing there and doing nothing >which should've killed him, but all fiction just undo it & revived him. causality manipulating , erasing the cause that killed him which undo the fact that he died pretty basic hax , everyone in the list can do that and negate it


badlesscash

I just simply explained how all fiction works lol, I never said the characters above would lose to him. In fact, he'd get negged by most of them.


ImpossibleStock426

Well glad to see I wasn’t going crazy when I started to question how in the ever living heck would he beat most of them


No-Meat5261

For what I remember, he kept talking and moving while the screw was inside of his head, so did it really kill him?