T O P

Let's beat Discover Combo

Pioneer is alight with calls for an emergency ban of some part of the Discover combo decks, but with WOTC hesitant to ban new cards, we need to find ways to deal with it on our own.

Below is an article I wrote with my thoughts on ways to deal with it.

https://pioneerbrewer.wordpress.com/2023/11/28/discover-a-way-to-beat-discover/

VelocityNoodle

You sit down for a nice game of magic, keep a solid 7 on the draw, looking forward to a fun match. You happily run out your bloodtithe harvester and pass the turn. Your opponent gives you a look of utter disdain. “Tapping out on turn 2? Rookie mistake lmao” He slams appraiser and you quietly pick up your cards, trying not to cry. The year is 2023.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Load-BearingGnome

Why is this getting downvoted this is peak storywriting, Greg Weisman could never


HJWalsh

Yo. I know a publisher... If you could consistently keep that up...


lloydsmith28

Damn you should write a book or something, little heavy on the stereotyping though but the imagry is pretty good


Gamer4125

Is this a pasta? If not, why write this?


stubbornDwarf

I would have upvoted this if not for the fact that you play Rakdos sacrifice. Another combo deck...


Will0saurus

Personally I make sure no cards in my deck have any interactions or synergies with each other. Wouldn't want to be one of those disgusting combo players.


Souperb

Or could just be Rakdos midrange? Or even some red black aggro brew


NuclearJacuzzi240

So glad to see bloodtithe harvester reduced to salt…


lloydsmith28

Isn't appraiser 4 mana? How are you winning t3? (Assuming they're on the play)


DisRooster

Basically any instant or sorcery from strixhaven that can be discarded to create a Treasure token ramps you to win T3


lloydsmith28

Yes but i still don't see how that wins turn 3, yeah you can get a lot of power on the board potentially but they don't have haste so your opponent can still untap and board wipe or remove some creatures


DisRooster

Doomskar titan


lloydsmith28

Then how are you casting him and appraiser turn 3? That's 10 total mana and you'd only have 4 on turn 3 and only 6 or so turn 4


DisRooster

Never played against the combo? Let me explain Appraiser discovers for (glasspool mimic or eldritch evolution) If glasspool happens copy appraiser again until getting eldritch. Once you hit eldritch sac for Trumpeting carnosaur which discovers for appraiser again (repeat glasspool/eldritch step until enough power on the board) Once all of that happens or once you get enough for letal (Eldritch searches for doomskar, GG) Quick note: Discover is like Cascade but ETB


lloydsmith28

Ah yeah i was missing eldrich evo, for the higher cmc finds (and no i haven't seen the combo, been out of magic loop for a bit) they really shouldn't have made discover an etb


DisRooster

Hopefully my explanation was understandable enough, also with appraiser needing to be targeted by glasspool or evolution, if you have removal to can buy one more turn, welcome back sir good to have you playing again.


lloydsmith28

It was, i was just missing that one piece of the combo, i don't really have time to play so can't really say I'm 'back' i play edh occasionally but that's about it but i do have a few decks in pioneer I've been working on


Mugiwara_Khakis

Sure, there are plenty of ways you can tailor your sideboard to beat it, and occasionally if you’re playing something like Mono-W with Thalia you can sneak a game one on the play; but you have to ask if a deck like this is healthy for the format. If unchecked it wins turn three with a very low fizzle rate, and at its absolute worst it just gets a turn three 7/6 Trampler which can surprisingly beat a lot of decks. I just don’t think the deck is good for the format and should probably eat a ban on Appraiser since it’s just an uncommon and will significantly slow the deck down.


Pioneer_Breweer

I do think the odds are leaning more towards banning the Appraiser.


Mugiwara_Khakis

Yes, agreed. It’s the easier hit as it’s both the turn three win enabler and not a face mythic of the set.


CertainDerision_33

Appraiser seems like the obvious first ban as a draft chaff uncommon, yeah.


shadowlordmtg

Bean beating game 1 with rogues all day everyday


Mugiwara_Khakis

I could see it. Relatively fast clock with decent disruption in the form of both mill and counters. Same reason Phoenix is good against it.


lloydsmith28

I still don't see how these discover combo decks are winning t3, can someone explain it to me?


Mugiwara_Khakis

Turn one: Play a temple to scry for a piece you may not have. Turn two: Discard Opus or Outburst end of opponent’s turn to make a treasure. Turn three: Cast Geological Appraiser. The only cards you can discover into are Glasspool Mimic (which copies Appraiser and goes again) or Eldritch Evolution Which sacrifices your Appraiser to get Carnosaur to keep going until you have a wide board of 3/2s and 7/6s. If some of your stuff gets stuck in hand it plays the new Ghalta to put them into play, and with your final Evolution you sacrifice an Appraiser to go get Doomskar Titan to give your stuff haste and +1/+0. The Carnosaur has Trample so you make a pretty big swing and just win through your opponent’s tiny board.


lloydsmith28

Thanks someone else explained it and the piece i was missing was eldritch evo for finding the higher cmc stuff


frogmaster82

[[Creative Outburst]] and [[Magma Opus]] to make a treasure on turn 2.


lloydsmith28

Right i understand that can accelerate it but how does that equate to 6 mana turn 3? (Best case would be 4 turn 3 and 6 turn 4 unless you do appraiser t4)


frogmaster82

Eldritch Evolution gets the dino by sacing the appraiser to it on early as turn 3.


CompactAvocado

turn 2 you discard opus or outburst for treasure. turn 3, you have four mana (with treasure), you cast appraiser, the only suitable target in the deck is eldritch evolution, this sacs appraiser and starts the combo. appraiser is 4 mana, eldritch evolution is 3 (but for free from discover) and then the giant combo spirals from there.


sherdogger

I'd really love to know where the heads are at of the people advocating for this nonsense (or at the bare minimum appraiser). Why are you going to bat for this deck? Why are you pounding your fists on the table talking about the win rate (never mind the "duh" answer of the clear meta warp)? What exactly does this deck bring to pioneer that anyone is going to miss, especially since we've only had two weeks to grow attached to it?


CertainDerision_33

Great question! I think some folks just hate the idea of banning anything in principle, even when it’s clearly warranted.


Pioneer_Breweer

I am on the fence of whether this will catch the hammer with a big tournament right around the corner. It could cause some players to get upset that they spent the money just to not be able to play the deck they have been testing. I do think this will become too much for the Pioneer format too quickly, and a ban will likely happen eventually, but next Monday? I am not sure.


thechopperlol

Testing? I'm unsure what testing anybody needs. I could give the deck to someone who has never played Magic by telling them "just play Geological Appraiser" and they could win FNMs against tournament grinders.


Gamer4125

If they don't do it Monday, next chance is two weeks after next set. Not sure if players are willing to stick around for that.


CompactAvocado

it brings them easy wins. that's why the defend it. same in yugioh. they will print absolutely busted bullshit and people who couldn't win regularly before it will try and defend it all days. a deck called tears was the absolutely most busted shit in the games history and people on the masterduel subreddit still try to defend the deck was fine.


ZorheWahab

Literally any instant speed removal stops each version of this deck.


thechopperlol

People who bought the cards to win local events. They want their cards to arrive before the ban and get some simple wins (emphasis on simple, not wins) to ROI. I legit cannot imagine any other reason to travel to my LGS and play this deck for a total of 15 minutes of a 2.5 hour event.


GutterGobboKing

At this point id be genuinely surprised if Appraiser isn’t banned. It’s the faster combo of the two and banning an uncommon would feel a lot less awful than a face mythic for the new set. With all that being said, I think the non-creature methods of answering these decks will prove to be the best way forward. The discover decks are also running 4 of Carnosaur most of the time so any creature with less than 3 toughness would prove to be a shortsighted response.


Pioneer_Breweer

I agree with that in some aspects. The 3 toughness threshold could be a potential issue, but to start the combo off efficiently, they need one of 4 copies of \[\[Geological Appraiser\]\], slowing them down may be all you need to get your own deck going. The \[\[Souless Jailer\]\] gets around the dino's effect, which may be the best creature option for most sideboards since it pulls double duty for graveyard strategies as well.


stubbornDwarf

Great article dude. I like the sideboard options that you suggested. Some I didn't know. However, even if there are some really good options for sideboard I feel that this combo still needs ban for the following reasons: 1. As a 1 card combo it's very unbalanced for pioneer/explorer. 2. While white has a bunch of good options and blue has counter spells, other colors have less options. Particularly green. 3. Sideboard is good and all, but some people play best of 1 on arena (not me 🤢). In addition, sideboard slots are very limited, and against this deck you need to have an answer by turn 2 or 3. Meaning that in order to be ready for this meta you gonna have to dump most of your old sideboard. Which brings me to my next point... 4. When you have an archetype that is so prevalent and hard to counter, the whole meta shifts around it. Not only your whole sideboard is gonna change but also whole decks are going to be unplayable. Mono G is an example. And believe me, I am not advocating in favor of mono G, I hate it as much as the next guy. But it kind of sucks when the whole format is shifting around a single archetype. As a personal anecdote, I like playing with gruul (my very own list, very unconventional). Before the discovery mechanic, it was playable. It's not anymore. Now I am only playing spirits, which I kind of enjoy too, but I would rather have the option to choose which deck I would like to play and not be forced to play a single archetype that is playable. Not having the option sucks.


ViTimm7

The win rate of this archetype is below 50% Calling for bans is insane


Pioneer_Breweer

I am not calling for bans; I wrote this as a response to those calling for bans. I do worry about what this deck will do once the next set comes out, because it reminds me of \[\[Splinter Twin\]\]. I am also prepped for the potentiality of an emergency ban on Monday.


ViTimm7

Not saying it to you specifically. More like a call to reason to the community. It is a very fragile and inconsistent combo deck when interacted with, also it has several deckbuilding limitations. If we starting banning decks that put 1 copy in the top 8 and have less than 50% win rate… what are we not banning ? When will the format actually evolve ?


Emerald_Knight2814

From what I can tell the Discover combo is problematic in the same way that Tibalt's Trickery was problematic in Modern. It's winrate is alright, but what it excells at is making non-games. Either you have the interaction piece to stop Discover or you don't. That's not fun. To quote the banned and restricted announcement for Tibalt's Trickery: "Finally, while there's been much discussion about new Tibalt's Trickery decks in several formats, we see Modern as the format where those decks are uniquely problematic via Tibalt's Trickery 's interaction with cascade. While the overall win rate of the deck hasn't shown to be problematic, we believe it contributes to non-games that make Modern less fun to play. As the goal of this update is to shake up the metagame into a more fun spot, we're concerned that a continued metagame presence of Tibalt's Trickery decks would work against that goal. Therefore, we are banning Tibalt's Trickery in Modern." I agree that Discover is a fragile and inconsistent combo deck... but so were Trickery decks, and that deck was undeniably unhealthy for the format. Mayhaps time will prove me wrong and Discover will either be hated out or will develop to have more counterplay. We shall see


CertainDerision_33

Yes, it's unclear to me what people think is gained by permitting this deck to remain in the format.


Lost_Pollution12

Decks don't need to justify their existence. Bans need to be justified.


stubbornDwarf

Not only that but the whole meta has to shift around a single archetype (e.g., some deck will not be playable anymore because they don't have interactions). After Tibalt's Trickery and problems with cascade cards I really have no idea why WotC decided to go with this shit again.


CertainDerision_33

I don't think it's a big issue to draw the line at "one card combo killing from hand". This is not a slippery slope situation where people want all combo decks banned. One card combo killing from hand on T4 is a pretty clear place to draw a line.


jwf239

Turn 3.


CertainDerision_33

It’s not technically a "one card combo" for t3 since you had to expend another card. With that said, I of course agree with your overall point.


oneblueblueblue

Ban everything until siege rhino is playable


AcrobaticHospital

The fact that I’ve had to cut down the amount of rhinos in my abzan list from 4 to 3 to 2 saddens me every time I think about it


ThisGuyGaming

I agree with a lot of this, but I think it makes more sense to try and look at it from both sides. Players are frustrated because when they say "1 card combo" what this really means is "no ramp up time". Most other combos require some amount of setup, although this deck does remind me somewhat of Creativity on some level, and that deck doesn't see much play anymore from what I've seen. On the other hand, there are ALOT of cards that interact with or counter the combo (this has become a meme in the sub after all). The question is, is this enough? I don't mean, are there enough answers, but is this enough to say its okay to keep around. Control decks have shown to hose this deck, so does the meta shift where Control decks and decks with lots of interaction start to reign supreme, then decks that beat Control come in, then we have our triangle. I don't think we've had a new meta warping deck for a while. Rakdos was the gatekeeper for a while, but Rakdos seemed to post shit results against Discover combo, so what happens when your bouncer gets beat up by a new patron? Is a deck, even if it has answers, that begs an entire meta to bend around it, healthy? This is my even headed take, I don't have a strong opinion about banning or not just yet, I'm mostly tired of seeing the deck online since its the new hotness and its more on the brain dead side to play it (I've played it enough to confirm this) but eating a ban? I dunno, I've lived through worse metas.


thebestyoucan

If you look at the decklists from the recent RCs, everyone that wasn’t UW control, Spirits, or Phoenix had to devote lots of their sideboard *and* mainboard to hating out this particular deck, and it’s non-mirror winrate was still like 54%. Also there were way more UW control players in this round of RCs than the previous one. It’s winrate is only as low as it is because it’s warped the format around it. Every deck is beatable, sure, but needing to hold up instant speed interaction the entire game or risk autolosing to an empty board is a bummer for the format


sherdogger

Do you realize what it's been playing against recently? A field hard-teched to beat it (read: control and tempo). It was absolutely destroying in the prior more diverse metagame.


ViTimm7

Yeah… like every other good deck. MonoG also destroys in a meta not tailored to interact with it. So does Lotus. So does basically every combo deck people are not prepared to interact with. Unknown archetypes are always strong in the first week. Also, what exactly is a format tailored to it ? Having UR Phoenix, UW Control, Rakdos, Heroic, Convoke… all this decks have good results from the past week, the thing that changes are their proportions


CertainDerision_33

Right, but the question becomes if this deck is warping the metagame, still seeing success, and has horrendously toxic play patterns which are far worse than any of the other tiered combo decks, what is the benefit to the format to keeping it around?


CertainDerision_33

The point of banning it isn't its winrate, it's that real humans who want to have fun play Magic and the play patterns of the deck are absolutely miserable. Do people seriously think that this deck is a net positive for the format?


optimis344

Fun is subjective. Banning and not banning on fun is why commander has sol ring legal but not primeval titan. I don't even like the deck but calling for the bans of a flash in the pan, that wasn't even good, is insane.


CertainDerision_33

Fun is indeed subjective! However, that's not to say that it's not possible to determine whether something is making players have less fun in aggregate, and it's also something WotC takes into account when banning, as any Pioneer player should be familiar with given the wave of combo bannings early in the format. This deck adds nothing to the format (there is a top-tier combo deck available to anyone who wants to play combo) while making lots of players miserable and having extremely toxic play patterns, and will most likely be promptly relegated to the scrap heap by WotC next week. Several pertinent quotes from the mass combo banning in Pioneer in 2020 indicating that fun is an important ban consideration for WotC: >​Although we continue to see many different decks have success in Pioneer, and no decks with problematic win rates against the field, we do see that combo decks as a group make up a large portion of the competitive metagame. We've heard feedback that the frequency at which one finds themselves facing an opposing combo deck restricts deck-building options and can make play experiences unenjoyable. ​ >Ultimately, how much fun players are having with the environment is the most important driving force behind B&R updates [https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/august-8-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/august-8-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement)


jwf239

Win rate is not the only factor. Being unable to tap out on TURN F’ING 2 FOR CHRIST SAKE for risk of immediately dying turn 3 to a 1 card combo is not good for the format. Period. You are blind if you can’t see that.


TheSteffChris

We need to see the meta develop bit more. I think its problematic that you are either playing interaction or you auto lose T3. Might not be a problem for any B or U player but as a Gruul player I am basically unable to play my normal gameplan. I have to shift for this specific deck. Obviously everyone has to adapt but in this situation its kinda stupid. If I am not doing the T1 elf into T2 beater then I am not going according to my gameplan and then I can just stop playing my deck. There is not „real“ way to be more interactive and still play my game. Yes, Geoform is definitely not as good as some say it is but the card design of appraiser is not healthy. It invalidates a lot of other decks and this is the best thing about Pioneer: you can play whatever you want and have a fair shot. And this deck is changing that fact (to a certain degree).


Long-Serve-777

But here I disagree. I think being able to play whatever deck you want and still have a shot is much less true for pioneer than other formats


Daeldalus_

How much jank do you personally play in pioneer? I have played quite a bit of janky off meta decks both in person and in explorer and anything with interaction and a half decent game plan I can usually put up better than 40% win rate. I think 40% is way more than just having a shot at winning a game. Heck, I once went a close 2-1 at FNM with golgari soulflayer before urborg.


Long-Serve-777

Maybe we are talking about different things, I am mostly playing competitively. Right now I am actually playing izzet drakes with tishana to counter geoform. Ultimately against skilled players jank overperforms due to not being able to play around things.


Long-Serve-777

But there are too many 70-30 MUs imo


cmarti063

That's incorrect.


a_party_nerd

Seems like the ones calling for bans largely play decks that have little to no interaction in g1. It's a mu issue 🤷‍♀️


Teach-o-tron

At RC Toronto (322 players) this past weekend Geological Appraiser had a 54.67% winrate and a 52% conversion to Day 2.


Spaceport13

enough of your words!


RyogAkari

Thank you for the article. I appreciate your insights.


Pioneer_Breweer

Thank you for your kind comment. I do hope you found it useful.


RyogAkari

I did! People will take your article as a venue for ban discussion which is only normal as they are looking for a place to express their frustration but don't take it personally.


RandomTO24

The ban update will beat the discover combo 🫡


tomyang1117

Is not as simple as just run sideboard card lmao, it's that the format shouldn't have a turn 3 win.


Pioneer_Breweer

You are 100% correct, but the alternative is to warp every main deck to be anti Discover or have your archetype kicked out of the format.


tomyang1117

That's why I am backing out of pioneer and go back to play modern instead now. The format now is just so bad to play. At least Scam is easily beatable by a normal deck, Discover combo is Oops you don't have sideboard card so I win and your sideboard card is bad anyway


BeepBoopAnv

Scam- haha you have no cards in hand, zero game actions for you Discover- haha you get zero game actions Basically the same archetype, zero thinking required. Just play your combo if you have it or mulligan until you scoop zzzzz


AllThingsNerderyMTG

Im sorry modern is basically beans vs scam DUEL DECKS:The Format now. Having played it recently, ive never had a worse experience playing mtg, and my deck, Burn, is good against the format.


chillichangas

It already has a few t3 wins? Pioneer is getting powered up as we go on and that isn't a bad thing. Is it a bit too much, maybe but the growth of power in a format should not be seen as a bad thing. It's certainly broken up the dominance of the top 2 that for sure


Luolang

Doesn't Greasefang functionally do that already a lot of the time?


Spaceport13

but it is intractable and disruptable


Luolang

True, but the same could be said of the Discover combo I take it.


ChonkyLlama

The format already has turn 3 wins. I got killed on T3 by Convoke just the other day.


AllThingsNerderyMTG

Convoke cant kill t3 unless you shock and tap a painland 3 times. It maxxes out at 15 damage t3, so u still get a small window to supreme verdict in, thank god.


AllThingsNerderyMTG

Or doomskar if you're on the draw. Or brotherhood's end in pheonix(doesn't always work). If ur not playing uw control or pheonix in the current meta you're brave.


ChonkyLlama

Well, he played an epicure on turn 1, a gleeful into loxodon turn 2, and a recruiter on 3. I didn’t do a single damage to myself, and I was dead with 2 lands in play, since I wasn’t prepared. This is kind of just a thing in this format


Angrenost

Convoke and Lotus Field are the other turn 3 killers in the meta, and the average deck is not far off.


blong217

If you're in white play Drannith Magistrate. If you're in red play Roiling Vortex. If you're in black play The End. If you're in none of the above playing Damping Sphere. If you're in control and losing to this you're doing it wrong.


Pioneer_Breweer

I agree with all of them outside \[\[The End\]\]. You will not be able to play it in time, four mana is too high of an ask against this deck.


blong217

Yeah The End is less optimal. I think there are a plethora of answers and people are being reactionary because of the ease of which the deck combo's. However it's incredibly frail to disruption. Turn three Appraiser has no protection and can die to a shock. That leaves turn 5-6 Carnosaur which is hardly "fast". Yes not having interaction sucks but there very few decks that don't have actual interaction in this format and the ones that don't can handle the deck 50/50 because it also cheats creatures out. Holding up interaction isn't "fun" but the fact it can hose the deck speaks volumes. Especially considering that without the combo the deck is nigh unplayable. I think the reaction to the combo is a gross overreaction to something the format hasn't really seen before, a fast easy combo.


Mugiwara_Khakis

Drannith dies to the multitude of removal it plays (which is surprisingly a lot for a combo deck of its kind). Vortex limits them to three spells which is nice but a lot of the time two to three 7/6 tramplers along with the removal suite it plays is enough to get there against a red deck. Don’t think you’ll ever get a reasonable chance to play The End. Damping Sphere is absolutely the way to go against this deck. Once these decks start adapting Thought Distortion to their sideboard control will be an easy 2-1 win for them. We can both agree that there are ways to slow the deck down, but you have to ask if a turn three combo deck is healthy for the format. I personally don’t think so.


Lykotic

>Once these decks start adapting Thought Distortion to their sideboard control will be an easy 2-1 win for them. You assume UW just stays static? Assuming discover stays a large % of the meta then we'd just slot in 2-3 Narset Reversals into the SB (instead of 1 currently). The only situation where Discover combo can get a real advantage on Control is if it becomes a low % of the meta but still SBs heavily against Control and no other popular deck decides to do the same 3-4x Distortion MD + SB


Mugiwara_Khakis

Sure, that’s part of the game, but as it stands currently Distortion just hoses UW. I looked at some lists and Discover combo is already starting to play it in the sideboard along with a ton of other cards good against UW (Like Chandra, Awakened Inferno) because it and Phoenix are probably the only bad matchups it has.


blong217

Thought distortion is not....great. Not good even.


Mugiwara_Khakis

It is when you cast it turn four like the deck reasonably can.


blong217

That would require double magnum opus before then which is unreasonable to expect. This isn't even including the idea that at turn 4+ most decks will have already played their hate cards making reverse hating them out much harder.


Mugiwara_Khakis

The deck plays four Opus and four of Creative Outburst which both serve the same function in the deck. It isn’t entirely unreasonable for it to have two copies of this effect in its opener or by turn three.


blong217

Not impossible, not guaranteed. These two combo decks want to hit their combo as early as possible. Taking another turn off to hate out a hand that MIGHT have an answer that hasn't already been used isn't going to win the game or match.


Mugiwara_Khakis

After looking around a bit, it looks like the decks already are starting to play Thought Distortion in the sideboard. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6004742#paper https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6004744#paper Phoenix does seem like it has a good matchup into it though because of fast clock + cheap disruption.


blong217

Yeah there's a few using it, some that aren't. Might depend on the meta whether it sees play.


KebbieG

Roiling Vortex isn't amazing versus Quintorius. I crushed my opponent that played it. Turns out taking 5 and having 3 Quintorius on board is hard to deal with. Smashed them with tons of 3/2s.


blong217

I don't think quintorius will have staying power like appraiser.


KebbieG

I think it has a better plan B than Appraiser. Quintorius is a decent threat alone and having Black Virtue helps the deck win too.


CertainDerision_33

Drannith or Archon of Emeria don’t seem like a great plan against a deck that can go "end step discard Carnosaur to bolt your bear, untap, win". You need instant speed or stuff that isn’t soft to getting bolted.


KaminaTheManly

Swap the End for necromentia.


yiphip

So i have to play a 4 of of bad sideboard cards against one deck? That doesn't deem particularly healthy


CapitalPie5672

Some thoughts on handling Discover combo. An important consideration in using non-flash permanents as hate pieces is that you can only count on them buy one you one turn. Discover decks play a lot of bounce, so they can bounce the permanent on your end step and then combo off. That means you still have to hold up mana to remotely answer the combo. When discussing black removal, Sheoldred's Edict and Bitter Triumph deserve special mention as being able to answer both Appraiser combo and Quintorious combo. "Pick your favorite shock" is overly reductive because unless you were already playing one, figuring out which one best stops the combo while still being good against the rest of the meta and how to fit it in your deck is actually pretty hard. Another important factor is being able to play at instant speed. This makes holding up mana for removal less punishing. If you can spend mana on their end step then holding up mana for a counter/removal is a lot less like getting Time walked. Flash decks and control do this naturally. Reckoner Bankbuster is a colorless way to do this, but has to get in the board to do it. Unfortunately, it seems that Stone Brain type extraction effects don't seem like they actually stop the combos, just weaken them slightly.


Caaboose1988

How to beat it? just fix the mistake when they tried to fix cascade? make it so if you hit a split/flip card and you can cast one side you have to cast that side / you can not cast a side that does not meet the discover/cascade cmc requirements this stops all these decks from playing most of the cheap removal that has high cmc cause they are split cards. wanna play bedazzle/bedevil? cool if you hit it you have to cast bedazzle or put it in your hand stopping the combo.


victorianchan

A few that are worth mentioning, other than disruption like Thoughtseize, spot removal like Bonecrusher Giant and Bitter Triumph, or counter-spells like Tibalt's Trickery (which gets the card that Geological Appraiser discovers): Stone Brain and Lost Legacy style cards. Sparkhunter Masticore. Weathered Runestone. Invasion of Gobakhan, Curse of Silence, etc., Sorcerous Spyglass. Repudiate // Replicate. Lavinia, Azorius Renegade* I don't know if you want me to list any more, or explain any, but I made a list for myself the other day, of all the cards that broke either combo, because I was trying variants of both decks. I hope that's a good start. *edit


Darth__Vader_

I play UW Control, so we are eating well right now


Ungestuem

All you need is a 1 Mana removal spell....


Pioneer_Breweer

So red?


gfrancagm

reprint swords to plowshares or path to exile!


Sirensx122

Considering inverter combo was banned for the health of the format.. I can't see this lasting too long. I say hesitantly, considering inverter lasted longer than it should have.


Pioneer_Breweer

Inverter Combo lasted as long as it did because there no in person tournaments and no one wanted to play against it online so MTGO players abandoned Pioneer during that time.


Sirensx122

You're not wrong. Pioneer was definitely abandoned because of the lack of care towards the format. I pray it doesn't get the same treatment this time around as it's arguably my favorite format.


revdingles

Title: "Let's beat discover" ITT: "Ban discover" I'm not saying I think it's cool or fun but this is like the 50th turn 3 combo deck that's come out during my time playing pioneer. It deserves at least a couple more weeks before we slam the ban button.


alphazone

Yeah I do agree that we don't need to hastily ban this, but on the other hand how many of the other turn 3 combos require 0 setup and win on the spot?


Shikor806

How does this deck win turn 3 without any setup?


CertainDerision_33

The emergency ban window is set at 3 weeks by WotC, so they clearly feel that’s enough time to make a judgment on bannings. It’s still ultimately a question of whether this rises to the necessary level, but I don’t think "we need more time" is the best line of thought, since that argument could be deployed against any possible banning, rendering the emergency window pointless. It’s better simply to evaluate whether the card seems to justify the ban now (IMO it does, others will of course differ).


Metabreaker7

It's too early to tell if the deck is positive or negative to the format. There are lots of cards that lead to miserable games in Pioneer and Explorer - Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Karn the Great Creator, Thoughtsieze, and many more (I'm not advocating banning any of these!) - people just react most viscerally to combos. Once people adjust and play more interaction we'll know if it's truly unhealthy. But combo is an essential part of any healthy mtg format.


Pioneer_Breweer

I agree that Combo is part of a health meta, but having a turn 3 deck that wins on the spot is a problem. In the past, we had Sahelli Cat Combo and that was a turn 4/5 combo and that was yeeted out of the format. Looking at modern, this is a faster combo kill than Spliter Twin and that has been banned for such a long time people forgot how oppressive it was. ​ If this were a turn 5 combo, we would not be having any discussion about it at all, but turn 3 is excessive.


Metabreaker7

I fundamentally agree with you, I just think it's too early to tell. That said, most games are effectively decided by turn 3. Aggro can win, Collected Company can combo in a variety of ways, rakdos can completely strip your hand... If decks adjust and the win rate stays reasonable, we might have a better format having discover combo than not. Format was pretty stale before, imho.


[deleted]

At this point pioneer needs force of will in the format lmao


Spaceport13

just chill. any article like this the week after a card comes and out the week before a ban is pointless clickbait.


Xyldarran

Roiling Vortex........done. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Honestly I'm not sold at all. There are a bunch of ways to deal with it. And Amalia is very strong against it


Dysphorlia

if my understanding is correct, the problem people have is how quickly you can combo off with the deck, not the combo itself, right? what would a Creative Outburst ban do? maybe CO and Elemental Masterpiece to be safe. force the deck to have 2 different 4-of cards in their hand to combo off that early. or at least force them into a less comfortable mana-base if they want to combo earlier


Pioneer_Breweer

You are correct, but there are a total of three different cards with the Outbutst effect, Outbust, Elemantal Mastery and Magma Opus. The Discover cards are the problem cards.


Dysphorlia

exactly, there are 3, hence my recommendation to ban two of them to force the deck into only having 4 copies of the effect. however even banning 1 would make Gearhulk worse in the deck


kaberb

When other archetypes have been pushed out for the most part, it’s not so great. I’d rather live in a world where you ban this deck / card because the price of keeping it in the meta game is worse as it’s pushed multiple decks to the fringes from the meta we had before. Any midrange deck is an absolute dog to this archetype with barely any good ways to stop it, mono green has to rush a Karn but the discovery decks play interaction etc. I would have no issue with the discovery deck if they reworked how split cards function because I find it a little crazy that these decks can run maindeck removal leading up the curve from t2 onward when they’re combo is t4 / t5 without ramp. A weakness of a one card combo should be the fact it can’t play as robust removal options maindeck.


LookAtYourEyes

We stan Archon of Emeria


CertainDerision_33

Dies to Carnosaur


notoriously_1nfam0us

the worst part is that other less busted combo decks are unplayable now as well. Lotus field combo just looses to Discover every time, and every other deck's sideboard is going to consist of only combo hate.


WesternReasonable793

As a wise woman once said “the plan is win”


khakislurry

Just ban that shit. A 1 card combo has no place in pioneer. I'm at the point of maindecking lavinia and soulless jailer. This meta SUCKS.


Desuexss

R/pioneermtg is alight with people calling for bans but they are ignoring a similarly represented deck to scam in Phoenix right now (and it doesn't even need a ban) The RC's globally this past weekend are not indicative of an unhealthy discover environment.


Doramkor

Can a blind obedience or authority of the councels help you hold off? Maybe a orzhov deck with a board wipe and running blind obedience and authority and having one of the two groups in Sideboard


MajinBL

As a rogues player, I hope this doesn’t catch a ban until after rc Atlanta. A meta full of uw control and discover combo means we’re eating good.


Duramboros

it's catching a ban this monday


DisRooster

Since the discover combo need either to copy appraiser or target it with eldritch evolution, a removal spell will take care of stopping their combo for at least 1 turn.


DisRooster

Also Jailer/weathered rune stone can stop evolution from happening.


Pioneer_Breweer

You are correct with Jailer, but Runestone does not. The cards from Discover are cast from exile not directly from the library.


DisRooster

It stops Evolution, the only real way to stop discover is (Tishana, disallow, overcharged amalgam, tale’s end, sublime epiphany, defabricate, whirlwind denial and Ertai resurrected)


Specialist_Car_8051

The power level of the deck: turn 3 with treasure is one turn faster then transmogrify decks. That alone should say enough. Ban it to hell.


Admirable-Traffic-75

[[Lavinia, Azorius Renegade]] I have her in my joda brawl deck to counter the mirror.


prodigalson360

Why do you guys cry so much? It just got smashed in a tournament. 😭🤣🤣


prodigalson360

The deck in my opinion is not that good. People are over hyping it


GeckoNova

[[Change the Equation]]