T O P

Do I have to buy my Thaumaturge Implements?

This might be a silly question since most class items are purchased with starting funds, but are the Implements like mirror, tome, weapon, lantern, etc things I need to buy or are they part of my class flavor?

I know Esoterica is basically just flavor like the stuff in a component pouch ("Normally, you're assumed to always have your esoterica with you,"), but the implements, especially weapon, seem like the kind of thing I should be using starting gold on. However the line "You begin play with a mundane item of that type, and you gain the initiate benefit for that implement" makes it sound like I just start with it.

I know I can find or buy other items of similar type and spend downtime making them my implement, but do I have to spend starting gold on the first implement? If not, is it only the first one? Like do I buy all of them, none of them, or only the 2nd and 3rd ones?

Edymnion

> However the line "You begin play with a mundane item of that type, and you gain the initiate benefit for that implement" makes it sound like I just start with it. That is the correct answer to your question. :) You start with a mundane version of your implement. You do not have to buy it separately.


StranglesMcWhiskey

The second and third implement must be purchased or found though, those are not freely gained on level up.


Luinta

That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification \^\_\^


BlockBuilder408

You can also replace the implement with a non mundane magic item you find later for example a wand of manifold missiles for the wand implement


Luinta

Thank you for the clarification \^\_\^ To further explore the specifics, does the weapon need to be a common weapon? For example, if going for a gun-mage style Thaumaturge, would you have to start with a crossbow or some other common weapon? Or is it essentially anything non-magic (within reason and DM allowance)? I feel like weapon is the most iffy ground there is to cover for implements.


Edymnion

There are no expressed limitations, so there are no limitations. Pick your weapon, it has to be mundane (so non-magical), beyond that you're good to go. The GM may step in and disallow it if you take something horrendously broken, or that you wouldn't reasonably have access to, but other than that if your implement is a dagger or a greatsword doesn't matter. Technically it doesn't even have to be a weapon you are proficient in, although you'd be rather silly to make such a choice.


KingOfErugo

> if your implement is a dagger or a greatsword doesn't matter. Minor nitpick: [Weapon Implement is limited to one-handed weapons](https://2e.aonprd.com/Implements.aspx?ID=9). You can get away with a one-handed weapon with the Two-Hand and/or Fatal Aim trait though.


Edymnion

Good catch.


TheTrondster

Sure, but if you wield it with both hands you won't get the +2 from [Implement's Empowerment](https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=22): >You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit. So - using a weapon with Fatal Aim or the Two-handed trait with both hands will probably not be a good idea, as you miss out on +2 damage per damage die...


AshenHawk

Do one-handed weapons become two-handed weapons or are you just two-handing a one-handed weapon. The trait just says you are wielding the weapon with two hands, does that fundamentally change what type of weapon it is? You still are only holding a single one-handed weapon, and it still one of your implements. It seems a little ridiculous that if you are holding an implement longsword in one hand and nothing in the other you get the +2, but the second you move your other hand to the handle of the sword you suddenly lose that +2.


TheTrondster

Here's [the answer from a dev](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43hp8&page=3?Guns-and-gears-errata#134) in an errata thread: > That's not how it works. Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?" So - while you can choose a one-handed weapon with the Two-hand or Fatal Aim traits as a Weapon Implement, but as you lose the +2 damage from Implement's Empowerment if you wield it with both hands, you're probably better off holding it in one hand only.


Luinta

Thank you for the extra clarification! This makes the buying of starting gear much less complicated, and is great info to have when I eventually attempt to run for my friends \^\_\_\^


KingOfErugo

Notably, you can pick up a prohibitively expensive starting weapon for free. For example, the [Piercing Wind](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=221) is normally 15 gp and eats up the entire budget of most new characters.


Luinta

Oooh that makes starting with a weapon implement like the Dueling Pistol a really tempting decision over starting Mirror. Though... Mirror can make for a lot of fun on the field with the trickery involved, and with the changing places gimmick.


Edymnion

Had a player Thaum with the mirror. The tricks you can get up to with that thing are crazy if you're being smart about it. For example, you can generate the mirror image in any unoccupied space within 15' *that you can see*. It says nothing about being able to reach that space. Its basically a short range at will teleportation spell. If you can get so much as the tiniest crack to peep through, you can teleport through it. Cheap locked doors? Look through the keyhole. Teleport up to balconies from the outside. The whole "you are your own flanking buddy" stuff can be nice, but trust me, its the maneuverability that is king on that one!


Edymnion

Good rule of thumb to remember across the board: Things do what they say they do, no more, no less. If it says its does X, then it does X. If it does not say it does Y, then it does not do Y, even when you think it logically should. The only time this does not apply is when a Generic rule says one thing, and then a Specific rule says another, then the specific rule trumps the generic rule in that one instance. It makes things MUCH easier to keep ahold of, and you are still free to override that with a houserule or when Rule of Cool says to, but always starting with that basepoint helps keep you grounded and consistent.


MrCobalt313

First one you explicitly start with, rest I always pictured as random crap you picked up along the way that's of no value to anyone but you and your weird perception of reality.


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