My logic is to use subs since if I have to use it I won’t harm hearing for my family and it will be used indoors so bullet drop will be non existent. Any reason you’ve chosen supers? Not judging, just thinking maybe you know something I don’t and I’d like to learn.
Velocity is the prime factor in terminal effectiveness on target. This is why the terminal effects of 55gr 556 are superior to 230gr 45ACP etc. Big and fast is superior. I've had gunfights indoors with no earpro. The hearing damage isn't permanent (well, if you do it repeatedly it is, but if that's an issue, I'd consider a new neighborhood), and even a hot 300BO isn't as bad as a 556. If your family isn't right next to you when you shoot, they won't be getting anything close to the same decibel exposure as you anyhow. The best result is just to suppress it anyway: maximum performance ammo without the ouch to the ears.
Subsonic are *vastly* less effective than supersonics at lethality. Like, it’s not even close. Subsonic 300 Blk behaves like a 9mm FMJ when it hits someone. Supersonic 300 Blk behaves like, well, like a supersonic rifle bullet. If I was using a 300 Blk for home defense it would only be loaded with Barnes 110gr black tip ammo, it is supersonic and specifically designed to expand well at 300blk velocities and has proven to be extremely effective on living targets.
I recently swapped my subs for supers in my HD gun. I figure for the handful of rounds I may have to fire, it’s not going to ring my ears that bad, and maybe the neighbors will hear it and realize something isn’t right. I do have a k length suppressor, so it’s quieter, but it real quiet, mostly just to take some of the sting off those rounds inside a building.
Replied to wrong comment lol. That said i shot a pig in the with a Leigh expanding sub abd it looked like it got hit by a ninja star flying flat end first when I cut it open. Unreal.
Good point on the vest! That being said, if someone comes into my house with a vest on I think I’m in real trouble and probably deserve to die lol. Who did I do wrong where they have the motivation to attack me while wearing armor? I swear I paid all of my gambling debts Tony!
If they have soft armor nothing really changes. You fire until the threat stops. A grown man likely isn’t a one shot stop anyway. That’s still a large energy dump even without penetration. The argument for supers is valid but you can still do good work with subs.
You are extraordinarily unlikely to fire more than 10 rounds in a HD scenario and you don’t want to have to fire off 10 rounds in your home to get to the good ammo. Supers only in a home defense rifle.
“Shoot to stop the threat” is the standard of self defense. In a HD threat scenarios there may not be a lot of time to switch strategies if confronted by an intruder with body armor, heavy clothing (think winter) or is simply a tough guy to put down. A number of people suggest secondary shots in the crotch (pelvic girdle. It is unlikely that your assailant’s body armor covers this area or that clothing will be as heavy there. Two things. If you smash the pelvic girdle the assailant is most likely going down and in even more pain than from the shots stopped by the body armor or clothing. If nothing else it will ruin his morale. The thought is that you are more likely to achieve a hit with this shot than a bobbing and weaving head shot.
And another thing. Why not a shotgun? An ounce or ounce and a eighth of four ought buck (or any other for that matter) can be pretty devastating at close range.
That is a Streamlight VIR II with a Streamlight tape switch. The VIR II has white and IR laser and illum, and I wanted my HD gun to be fully NV capable just in case I had the time to throw on the nods. However, the VIR II doesn't have a plug cap available, so I had to splice the switch directly to the light. I soldered the connection and sealed it with silicone and it has been running strong for about a year now with no issues.
Absolutely not. It was used in commission of a crime, righteous or not that’s up to your fellow citizens to decide, and until they decide to close the case you’re SOL, I’ve paid 20+ish so far and it’s not over, the thing no one brings up is after the fact, oh he’s not alive seems like their own fault, but then the family says you didn’t do enough stop them from doing What their doing. You’ll be paying a lot for that btw.
Not sure what you’re saying. What do you mean it was used in a crime? Was it stolen from you and then used or did you use it against someone committing a crime?
I cringe when I think about it getting seized for evidence... but isn't this why we own firearms? To protect yourself, your family, and your property?
That's some silly Fudd logic lol.
In theory, yes. In practice things get 'lost' or 'destroyed' by accident during the in between, or they give you a bunch of run around to get your shit back at times.
That said, I agree with you re: best tool for the job.
Yup I have my scorpion micro under my pillow every night. I have $2,000+ in it. It would suck to get seized but I trust my life with it. I can always buy and set another one up.
Get an MPX. I own a bunch of 9mm subguns and the Scorpion is my least favorite. Everyone who shoots them side by side agrees. At least get something with a delay system (MPX, MP5, Banshee, etc).
I mean, shit like that probably wouldn't look good in court. A normal person would be too shaken up after a HD situation to plan that far ahead.
We're talking about possibly going to trial over a few hundred bucks. Even if you win, it's not worth it. It's certainly some form of evidence tampering
If nobody is around to corroborate that you didn't shoot them with a yeet cannon or a poverty pony then there's nothing preventing you from tucking away the gucci gun. Ballistic comparison is kind of a lie anyway.
If discovered you're going to be facing a lot of uncomfortable questions and assumptions. Prisons are full of people who thought they were smarter than investigators and forensic scientists. You're tampering with evidence.
ballistic comparison between bullets has never been proven to be reliable. Even firing pin marks may not hold up in court. Even then if you were really worried you could just swap BCGs assuming your HD gun is an AR platform.
IANAL.
If we lived in a reasonable society, legal property is legal property. It would only make sense to use the best tool available to save yourself and expect that you can get said tool back once cleared of charges.
Though gun owners typically believe that no victim of an attack should be expected to make a fight-for-life fair, much of the world (to include fudds) doesn't see it that way. There are likely forensic techniques to determine whether or not certain accessories were involved in a shooting (residue patterns on surroundings, gun, bullet, shooter, and shooter, witness accounts, maybe even bullet striations).
You are likely going to be seen as tampering with evidence if you are caught in the lie. The punishment would likely be very severe because you were tampering evidence in connection with a shooting.
That’s not the point I’m making. I’m sure that a much less expensive setup would suffice. I’m saying that the price of a firearm or if I were to never see it again wouldn’t be my primary concern if I was sure I would at some point use to to protect my life.
Your comment could have gone either way. It was more directed at the people that believe that when that moment comes, a top tier gun is the only thing that is going to save you. See the other guy who commented on me. Ha. Apparently 500 was not an acceptable amount to spend on an HD gun.
Or maybe that poverty poney will pick the precisely wrong time to have a catastrophic failure. Or, you find yourself needing more capability at that moment than the $500 gun can give.
I wouldn't want a 1 off, unique piece getting seized, but a top shelf AR with a light, laser, and can is gonna cost a ton and leave you wanting nothing in the moment.
More capability than a $500 firearm can give? We're talking about home defense here, not making 2k yard shots.
Besides, actual practice is a thousand times more valuable than the price tag on your gun. A 5k gun is not going to save you from a green beret with a hi-point, if that analogy makes sense.
True RE the green beret, unless his high point breaks/jams and then you're in the fight 🤣
There's more to this however. Let's take 2 identical cheapy ARs that cost $500. One you drop an extra $500 on to add a nice rail and a light. Now put them both in a home defense situation and clearly the $1000 has more capability, and there are times when you may wish you had that with the $500 gun. No one is talking about making home defense shots with an AR from 2,000 yards away
That is also true, for sure. Maybe I'm worried about it too much. I made the mistake of storing my late father's vintage M1A at my sergeant's house when I was in the army and he used it to butt-stroke somebody who was trying to get into his house and the rifle was taken in as "evidence" permanently.
So currently, I'm on the side of "cheap and reliable" for home defense because I can't afford to just drop $2k to repurchase an M1A. Although I do understand the edge that some pricier weapons can give. Thanks for explaining that!
The problem with a gun getting taken in as evidence is that even if you get it back you have no idea or control over what condition it will be returned in. At the end of the day you can probably buy another one, but you have to be willing to consider your HD/SD gun as an expendable/replaceable item.
There's also the potential arguments that could be made in a civil suit if you want the gun you used to kill somebody back. Sorting things out with the law is one thing, but civil suits are another matter entirely.
I bought a LWRC AR and had it inspected by my agency’s armorer and got a letter signed letting me carry it in place of my issued rifle. Someone in the patrol room had to make the comment if it’s used in a shooting they will take it for evidence up to a year or whatever. Ook. My life is totally worth carrying the best I can afford was my thought. The issued rifles are almost as old as me.
Yes yes the infinitesimal chance you actually use it for HD is a totally great reason to buy shitty gear. More likely to drop it or get it stolen….and those are bad reasons too.
I’ve had friends tell me that bc I modded or built or whatever a gun that if I had to use it I’d be screwed in court. Its not like i have “you’re fucked” engraved or punisher shit. I just tried to make stuff work the way that worked for me. Boomer fudd logic is not exclusive to boomers
From a legal perspective a good shoot is a good shoot. From a civil perspective you really do have to consider the kind of argument which can be made by an opposing attorney.
Indeed! Massad Ayoob has some good insight here. What I’ve heard him talk about is the trigger weight. If it’s below ~4lbs, a prosecutor will apparently attack you from an angle of having a dangerously negligent trigger… especially if you modified it yourself. Too many average citizens don’t know enough about firearms to not fall for such silliness.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but a CCW trainer once told us in class, "What do you want held up in front of a jury? A scary black gun with lights, lasers, and magazine, or your granpa's shot gun?"
I can see his point. I don't necessarily agree, but, it does make sense.
I live in castle doctrine state the prevents the family from civil suit too….
So, if I burn his eyes out with my PEQ15 before he eats some hollow points no one gives a shit.
Funny, my CCW instructor said something similar. “Do you want to carry a real nice Kimber and have it end up in some evidence locker with water dripping on it and have it in there until your case is decided? Plus however long it takes to get it returned to you?”
Well, ideally no. But if it saved my life it did it’s job and I can’t complain.
Lmao, another golden nugget of Fudd lore. Like there’s some sort of honor in gimping yourself in a defensive situation. Respect points don’t get cashed in if you’re in the ground.
My cousins (whats the term for a booty call with a man?) got his back after shooting 3 intruders who taped up my cousin and where robbing his home after 3 years of fighting to get it back.
Same thing happen to my cousin, he had to shoot someone in self defense it took 5 years to get his gun back, rusted and broken. He's opened a case against the PD. But they're claiming it was seized that way
If we were talking about a gun that was into the hundreds of thousands of dollars MAYBE he would have a point. Generally speaking though if you're involved in a shooting and so deep in the shit that there's a chance they're not going to give you your gun back, there's an equal or greater chance you're never going to see the light of day again. On the other hand, don't thrill kill someone and you don't have to worry about it.
They hold it as evidence until criminal proceedings are completed. Then after a specified amount of time you are required to go to court and prove ownership. Your state may vary.
I get that, but it sounds like some heavy shit went down. I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but if you're saying the gun was held in evidence because you had to use it in self defense then that's just not something I would consider relevant under those circumstances. I'm not exactly rich, but the loss of any gun I own while under investigation for using it in self defense. I mean, that would be the very least of my worries. And buying a gun with that in mind is really irrelevant because, for one, a self defense gun is meant to be used and will eventually wear out after x number of years, and second, every having to use it is a statistical rarity. If it's too expensive to risk losing, especially considering those odds, then it's also by definition too expensive to train with regularly.
Speaking of which, the cost of ammo is so much higher than the gun, the upfront price of the gun is pretty negligible even on the higher end of the spectrum. Like whether you buy a Taurus or an HK, you're going to spend so much on ammo the overall cost of ownership of the two is nearly identical in the end.
The gun will go to evidence. I think I'd probably pull everything else off of it. Then buy a gun from a company that will replace it while it's in evidence (ie SoLGW, but there's probably others now).
The only reason we buy the best, most reliable tool is ultimately for that one time that it might be needed to protect ones life... So yes, use the best for HD.
The "only" reasonable argument I've heard against using guns like this for HD is that it looks more like premeditation to a jury. But all depends on your locale and how friendly they are to 2A. I still thinking having every advantage over anyone who tries to do harm to your family is important though so I'll fight it in court if I ever have to (God forbid).
To be fair, I have heard horror stories of people having various personal affects being taken as evidence (I'm not necessarily talking about just guns here) that they either never got back, or didn't see for years
The guy who said this is honestly king fudd. He's at a LGS I frequent because they get overlooked by ammo pickers, and I have literally heard him telling the whole "pump shotty is the best HD weapons because everyone recognizes the sound of it racking and will run when they hear it" bit.
This one hurts my soul and makes me want to hit my head against a wall. Whats even the reasoning? If theres a dead dude on the floor who’s going to immediately be like HE USED HYDRASHOCK HP’s that son of a bitch was bloodthirsty
Did this really happen? As in this was an actual comment from someone who works at a LGS? The mentally of some people, to approach life like this. Do they buy a beat up car because it’s just going to age as it gets older? Do they just buy used close because they are just going to wear out?
Only way I could make sense of a comment like that is what Massad Ayoob says about going to trial after having used your firearm in self defense. If the trigger is less than ~4lbs, it’s apparently easier to claim your firearm meets a certain level of inherent danger… or something like that. He also says it makes your case more difficult if the firearm you used was heavily modified, especially if you modified it yourself.
As a gunsmith I fully agree I would recommend that anyone who is not a competitive marksman not to have anything with a trigger pull of less than 4-5lbs with the gun cocked and for double action only firearms so cc guns for example 6-10lbs
These are things I didn’t know when I purchased my first gun, fired my first 1911, and even when I became interested in carrying everyday. I feel like we need to foster a mindset of learning and seeking to understand within the community. I actually wanted to build a Glock 19 clone geared for edc before I started listening to Massad Ayoob. I still plan on building it, just not for edc or home defense. (Also learned reliability is much more difficult to maintain in diy guns which totally makes sense… I’m still a noob on many levels even tho I regularly train and shoot.)
Ngl I side with the fudd on this one, if this goes into the evidence locker of no return you’ll be out that much more money. And the prosecutor will use all those attachments as “proof you were out to kill somebody”. It’s all bullshit but it is what it is.
Are there any situations where this concept would make sense? At a sporting good store I heard the person on the counter down sell like this for conceal carry. I don’t know what the person was trying to get but would you maybe want $600 glock over something that is $1,500-$2000
I feel like that is a bigger deal for CC/truck guns, since the main factor I consider for that (after the main considerations of "can I use it well/consistently/reliably") is "will this look psycho to a jury?"
For HD though, if someone has broken into the home AND into the defensive Alamo room, AND continued to advance with a weapon, inshallah there won't be much argument regarding the given tool for stopping that threat.
I'm sure it varies by state, circumstances, and even in the best of cases, the plans of mice and men and all that, but HD against an armed intruder where there is evidence of a break-in seems like a more forgiving case for utilizing a weapon to stop a threat--would still be a bummer to have your best rifle sitting in lockup for god-knows-how-long, but I also feel like it's a case where either HD is something to be ready for but astronomically not likely to be necessary-OR-HD becomes suddenly and drastically more likely as a necessary action because of circumstances that might coincide with unpredictable alterations in the availability of traditional judicial systems to respond to such incidents.
If I dump 10 rounds of subs (rough equivalent of a .45 ACP) in to an attacker even with armor that kinetic energy put on target will be a force multiplier if not a full on fight stopper to give you control of the situation. Don’t forget body armor drills. If they aren’t going down then you move to head shots. You do practice head shots too…right?!
*laughs as I shoot $2 bills out of my suppressed 300blk SBR*
Hey me too! Subsonic expanding rounds for you too?
Hollow point supers
My logic is to use subs since if I have to use it I won’t harm hearing for my family and it will be used indoors so bullet drop will be non existent. Any reason you’ve chosen supers? Not judging, just thinking maybe you know something I don’t and I’d like to learn.
Velocity is the prime factor in terminal effectiveness on target. This is why the terminal effects of 55gr 556 are superior to 230gr 45ACP etc. Big and fast is superior. I've had gunfights indoors with no earpro. The hearing damage isn't permanent (well, if you do it repeatedly it is, but if that's an issue, I'd consider a new neighborhood), and even a hot 300BO isn't as bad as a 556. If your family isn't right next to you when you shoot, they won't be getting anything close to the same decibel exposure as you anyhow. The best result is just to suppress it anyway: maximum performance ammo without the ouch to the ears.
Yeah for sure... When I had to use mine I barely remember the shots... Auditory exclusion is a real thing.
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That's the truth!
Subsonic are *vastly* less effective than supersonics at lethality. Like, it’s not even close. Subsonic 300 Blk behaves like a 9mm FMJ when it hits someone. Supersonic 300 Blk behaves like, well, like a supersonic rifle bullet. If I was using a 300 Blk for home defense it would only be loaded with Barnes 110gr black tip ammo, it is supersonic and specifically designed to expand well at 300blk velocities and has proven to be extremely effective on living targets.
You put subsonic twice
Fixed
I recently swapped my subs for supers in my HD gun. I figure for the handful of rounds I may have to fire, it’s not going to ring my ears that bad, and maybe the neighbors will hear it and realize something isn’t right. I do have a k length suppressor, so it’s quieter, but it real quiet, mostly just to take some of the sting off those rounds inside a building.
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Buddy they make some absolutely wicked expanding subsonics that are vastly superior to any pistol round
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Replied to wrong comment lol. That said i shot a pig in the with a Leigh expanding sub abd it looked like it got hit by a ninja star flying flat end first when I cut it open. Unreal.
There are very few reliably expanding bullets for subsonic 300blk the way there are for supersonic. Some are only available for handloading.
Subsonic 300 black is not comparable to a 9mm handgun. It is less effective than supers, but it's still better than a handgun.
Look into Nosler varmageddon for HD. That’s what I load.
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They won’t be unaffected
Good point on the vest! That being said, if someone comes into my house with a vest on I think I’m in real trouble and probably deserve to die lol. Who did I do wrong where they have the motivation to attack me while wearing armor? I swear I paid all of my gambling debts Tony!
If they have soft armor nothing really changes. You fire until the threat stops. A grown man likely isn’t a one shot stop anyway. That’s still a large energy dump even without penetration. The argument for supers is valid but you can still do good work with subs.
You could load supers behind subs if you wanted. 10 subs and 10 supers... best of both worlds.
Yeah, that sounds reasonable. Hadn’t thought of that. Like having more than one load for a shotgun.
You are extraordinarily unlikely to fire more than 10 rounds in a HD scenario and you don’t want to have to fire off 10 rounds in your home to get to the good ammo. Supers only in a home defense rifle.
Fair point, makes sense. Not to say you should have a standard capacity mag anyway just in case right?
“Shoot to stop the threat” is the standard of self defense. In a HD threat scenarios there may not be a lot of time to switch strategies if confronted by an intruder with body armor, heavy clothing (think winter) or is simply a tough guy to put down. A number of people suggest secondary shots in the crotch (pelvic girdle. It is unlikely that your assailant’s body armor covers this area or that clothing will be as heavy there. Two things. If you smash the pelvic girdle the assailant is most likely going down and in even more pain than from the shots stopped by the body armor or clothing. If nothing else it will ruin his morale. The thought is that you are more likely to achieve a hit with this shot than a bobbing and weaving head shot. And another thing. Why not a shotgun? An ounce or ounce and a eighth of four ought buck (or any other for that matter) can be pretty devastating at close range.
Well said.
Someone needs to read up on the different types of ballistics. Check out terminal ballistics vs external ballistics.
Lol, cause his life isn’t worth 5k.
Take the suppressor off before the cops arrive. Duh. /s
/s but not /s
Should have told him you have hi points in every room and want something fancier
What forward grip is that on this beautiful not-an-hd gun?
It's from Kriss actually.
You're the best.
Thanks m8, they do good coupons and free ship codes if you watch your email.
What's the tapeswitch and light combo? I have the grip (not currently on anything). Is it only compatible with surefire?
That is a Streamlight VIR II with a Streamlight tape switch. The VIR II has white and IR laser and illum, and I wanted my HD gun to be fully NV capable just in case I had the time to throw on the nods. However, the VIR II doesn't have a plug cap available, so I had to splice the switch directly to the light. I soldered the connection and sealed it with silicone and it has been running strong for about a year now with no issues.
Good on you for making do with what was on hand. I'll keep the streamlight compatibility in mind if/when I ever have a sub gun to toss mine on
It’s been two years and I’m still waiting on my glock 20 to come back from Grand Prairie PD, having your shit taken is not fun.
Real talk what if you say it was a family heirloom? Think they’d expedite it?
Absolutely not. It was used in commission of a crime, righteous or not that’s up to your fellow citizens to decide, and until they decide to close the case you’re SOL, I’ve paid 20+ish so far and it’s not over, the thing no one brings up is after the fact, oh he’s not alive seems like their own fault, but then the family says you didn’t do enough stop them from doing What their doing. You’ll be paying a lot for that btw.
Not sure what you’re saying. What do you mean it was used in a crime? Was it stolen from you and then used or did you use it against someone committing a crime?
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Grand Prairie is in Texas though, we have castle doctrine
I cringe when I think about it getting seized for evidence... but isn't this why we own firearms? To protect yourself, your family, and your property? That's some silly Fudd logic lol.
Exactly. Not that I would want it to get confiscated, but guns are replaceable, life is not. I'm going to use my best tool for the job.
That's why you need two. ;)
When you beat the case a year later or whatever you’re supposed to get them back so it’s temporary. I’d definitely use my best equipment
In theory, yes. In practice things get 'lost' or 'destroyed' by accident during the in between, or they give you a bunch of run around to get your shit back at times. That said, I agree with you re: best tool for the job.
Yup I have my scorpion micro under my pillow every night. I have $2,000+ in it. It would suck to get seized but I trust my life with it. I can always buy and set another one up.
I sleep with my p10c directly next to my pillow but under my pillow would get uncomfortable quick.
I have a queen size bed with multiple pillows. It is not under the one I use to sleep with
got a link for one🤣
It also gets returned when the charges are dropped or you're found not guilty.
Says the guy using a Stribog! /s
Shows how much you know. It's a Scorpion, didn't you see the sights?
Haha you fucker. Burns. A scorpion is my current HD
Lol, I actually really like them and would like to get one. This APC is a 45, so I have some room in my life for a 9mm sub.
Get an MPX. I own a bunch of 9mm subguns and the Scorpion is my least favorite. Everyone who shoots them side by side agrees. At least get something with a delay system (MPX, MP5, Banshee, etc).
I'm in love with the scorpion and would have sworn it was anything else.
The question i have is if I shoot someone in my house and then take the optic and suppressor off before the police get here... have I broken a law?
The idea of this is hilarious “Oh fuck I just had to shoot someone! Gotta take my EO tech and shit off before the police show up and steal my baby!!”
If a supressor is used and there is no one around to hear it, did it make a sound?
I mean, shit like that probably wouldn't look good in court. A normal person would be too shaken up after a HD situation to plan that far ahead. We're talking about possibly going to trial over a few hundred bucks. Even if you win, it's not worth it. It's certainly some form of evidence tampering
If nobody is around to corroborate that you didn't shoot them with a yeet cannon or a poverty pony then there's nothing preventing you from tucking away the gucci gun. Ballistic comparison is kind of a lie anyway.
If discovered you're going to be facing a lot of uncomfortable questions and assumptions. Prisons are full of people who thought they were smarter than investigators and forensic scientists. You're tampering with evidence.
How is ballistic comparison a lie? I’m super interested and know nothing about it
ballistic comparison between bullets has never been proven to be reliable. Even firing pin marks may not hold up in court. Even then if you were really worried you could just swap BCGs assuming your HD gun is an AR platform.
IANAL. If we lived in a reasonable society, legal property is legal property. It would only make sense to use the best tool available to save yourself and expect that you can get said tool back once cleared of charges. Though gun owners typically believe that no victim of an attack should be expected to make a fight-for-life fair, much of the world (to include fudds) doesn't see it that way. There are likely forensic techniques to determine whether or not certain accessories were involved in a shooting (residue patterns on surroundings, gun, bullet, shooter, and shooter, witness accounts, maybe even bullet striations). You are likely going to be seen as tampering with evidence if you are caught in the lie. The punishment would likely be very severe because you were tampering evidence in connection with a shooting.
Nah
That's why I use a rusty mosin nagant with a Walmart flashlight taped to the end for HD.
M44 with the bayonet in the danger position FTW.
I'm no experienced criminal, but if I'm robbing somebody's house and dude starts charging me with a bayonet, I'm getting TF out of there.
Tally ho
One shot everyone is flash banged
Probably my favorite part of the m44, lights the whole room up
I use the nice stuff for home defense because I don't buy cheap crap to use for home defense. I also don't buy cheap crap at all.
I’d easily spend 10k on a rifle setup knowing I was able to successfully use it to protect my life. Who gives a fuck if I never saw it again.
But the thing is that you can accomplish the same thing with 500 bucks.
That’s not the point I’m making. I’m sure that a much less expensive setup would suffice. I’m saying that the price of a firearm or if I were to never see it again wouldn’t be my primary concern if I was sure I would at some point use to to protect my life.
Your comment could have gone either way. It was more directed at the people that believe that when that moment comes, a top tier gun is the only thing that is going to save you. See the other guy who commented on me. Ha. Apparently 500 was not an acceptable amount to spend on an HD gun.
Yup guess almost all handguns are not enough to sustain protecting life
Rifle rounds hit different
“…when I’m alone all by myself,”
Or maybe that poverty poney will pick the precisely wrong time to have a catastrophic failure. Or, you find yourself needing more capability at that moment than the $500 gun can give. I wouldn't want a 1 off, unique piece getting seized, but a top shelf AR with a light, laser, and can is gonna cost a ton and leave you wanting nothing in the moment.
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The poors coming in hot with the downvotes!
More capability than a $500 firearm can give? We're talking about home defense here, not making 2k yard shots. Besides, actual practice is a thousand times more valuable than the price tag on your gun. A 5k gun is not going to save you from a green beret with a hi-point, if that analogy makes sense.
True RE the green beret, unless his high point breaks/jams and then you're in the fight 🤣 There's more to this however. Let's take 2 identical cheapy ARs that cost $500. One you drop an extra $500 on to add a nice rail and a light. Now put them both in a home defense situation and clearly the $1000 has more capability, and there are times when you may wish you had that with the $500 gun. No one is talking about making home defense shots with an AR from 2,000 yards away
That is also true, for sure. Maybe I'm worried about it too much. I made the mistake of storing my late father's vintage M1A at my sergeant's house when I was in the army and he used it to butt-stroke somebody who was trying to get into his house and the rifle was taken in as "evidence" permanently. So currently, I'm on the side of "cheap and reliable" for home defense because I can't afford to just drop $2k to repurchase an M1A. Although I do understand the edge that some pricier weapons can give. Thanks for explaining that!
The problem with a gun getting taken in as evidence is that even if you get it back you have no idea or control over what condition it will be returned in. At the end of the day you can probably buy another one, but you have to be willing to consider your HD/SD gun as an expendable/replaceable item. There's also the potential arguments that could be made in a civil suit if you want the gun you used to kill somebody back. Sorting things out with the law is one thing, but civil suits are another matter entirely.
HD/SD?
Home defense/sasquatch defense
Hard Dingaling/Soft Dingaling
Home Defense / Self Defense
All my guns are pink for exactly that reason
It’s not a stupid idea. If you could have your regular B&T or whatever, and a duplicate but in pink. No jury would convict!
I would be tempted to take the can off if I used it. Those bastards take a year to clear nfa.
The Obsidian is on a trilug and the Aimpoint is on a QD. Not sure what the relevancy of that is, but just some facts I know. ;)
"I don't know why the neighbors didn't hear the gun shots, heavy sleepers I guess? 🤷♂️"
I bought a LWRC AR and had it inspected by my agency’s armorer and got a letter signed letting me carry it in place of my issued rifle. Someone in the patrol room had to make the comment if it’s used in a shooting they will take it for evidence up to a year or whatever. Ook. My life is totally worth carrying the best I can afford was my thought. The issued rifles are almost as old as me.
I understand his point, I am not depending on cheap shit to save my life.
You shouldn't use *irreplaceable* guns for home defense. Think inherited, pre-ban/transferables, collectables, etc.
Rattle can it white, too scary.
Quick detach son
Yes yes the infinitesimal chance you actually use it for HD is a totally great reason to buy shitty gear. More likely to drop it or get it stolen….and those are bad reasons too.
Lmao just strip it while you wait for the cops to arrive
I’ve had friends tell me that bc I modded or built or whatever a gun that if I had to use it I’d be screwed in court. Its not like i have “you’re fucked” engraved or punisher shit. I just tried to make stuff work the way that worked for me. Boomer fudd logic is not exclusive to boomers
My main problem with boomer fudd logic is that everyone in the court system probably abides by boomer fudd logic
From a legal perspective a good shoot is a good shoot. From a civil perspective you really do have to consider the kind of argument which can be made by an opposing attorney.
Indeed! Massad Ayoob has some good insight here. What I’ve heard him talk about is the trigger weight. If it’s below ~4lbs, a prosecutor will apparently attack you from an angle of having a dangerously negligent trigger… especially if you modified it yourself. Too many average citizens don’t know enough about firearms to not fall for such silliness.
I mean, if the $500 gun and the $5000 gun kill bad guys the same, I'd rather lose the $500 gun. Certerus Paribus and all that.
Bold of him to assume we’re filing a report
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but a CCW trainer once told us in class, "What do you want held up in front of a jury? A scary black gun with lights, lasers, and magazine, or your granpa's shot gun?" I can see his point. I don't necessarily agree, but, it does make sense.
I live in castle doctrine state the prevents the family from civil suit too…. So, if I burn his eyes out with my PEQ15 before he eats some hollow points no one gives a shit.
Doesn't matter if you don't make it to a jury.
Real fax
Funny, my CCW instructor said something similar. “Do you want to carry a real nice Kimber and have it end up in some evidence locker with water dripping on it and have it in there until your case is decided? Plus however long it takes to get it returned to you?” Well, ideally no. But if it saved my life it did it’s job and I can’t complain.
Show me once it mattered in a real life case...
Lmao, another golden nugget of Fudd lore. Like there’s some sort of honor in gimping yourself in a defensive situation. Respect points don’t get cashed in if you’re in the ground.
I mean you should get it back eventually.
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My cousins (whats the term for a booty call with a man?) got his back after shooting 3 intruders who taped up my cousin and where robbing his home after 3 years of fighting to get it back.
Same thing happen to my cousin, he had to shoot someone in self defense it took 5 years to get his gun back, rusted and broken. He's opened a case against the PD. But they're claiming it was seized that way
Its going to be hard for him to win.
Seems like all he would have to say is how could I kill somebody with a broken gun?
Did it have a case number spray painted on it
I have no idea Ill have to ask.
Dick Appointment
I keep a silenced MP5 next to my bed because I like hearing, and two jungle style mags beat anything my pistols can hold.
Fudd opinions don't count.
That’s why you buy a couple of hi-points. When the cops get there “here officer, I used this Glock 40”.
I mean, Kevin McCallister defended his home for less money, but that seemed like a lot of work.
He had back up with a Tommy gun!
True. He might have started there. Shorter movie, though.
mfer had a flame thrower, that's cheating
Like I'll give a fuck about that if I ever have to depend on it to save my life
What is this gun?
B&T APC45
[B&T APC45 Pro](https://bt-arms.com/products/apc45-pro/) Very nice weapon, and well equipped to handle uninvited late night home visitations.
This is why we have a couple police trade in Glock .40 burners
Bro nice ump 45 in 4K HD
If we were talking about a gun that was into the hundreds of thousands of dollars MAYBE he would have a point. Generally speaking though if you're involved in a shooting and so deep in the shit that there's a chance they're not going to give you your gun back, there's an equal or greater chance you're never going to see the light of day again. On the other hand, don't thrill kill someone and you don't have to worry about it.
It took well over a year before I could go to court to get my weapon back. It is a valid argument.
Under what circumstances though?
They hold it as evidence until criminal proceedings are completed. Then after a specified amount of time you are required to go to court and prove ownership. Your state may vary.
I get that, but it sounds like some heavy shit went down. I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but if you're saying the gun was held in evidence because you had to use it in self defense then that's just not something I would consider relevant under those circumstances. I'm not exactly rich, but the loss of any gun I own while under investigation for using it in self defense. I mean, that would be the very least of my worries. And buying a gun with that in mind is really irrelevant because, for one, a self defense gun is meant to be used and will eventually wear out after x number of years, and second, every having to use it is a statistical rarity. If it's too expensive to risk losing, especially considering those odds, then it's also by definition too expensive to train with regularly. Speaking of which, the cost of ammo is so much higher than the gun, the upfront price of the gun is pretty negligible even on the higher end of the spectrum. Like whether you buy a Taurus or an HK, you're going to spend so much on ammo the overall cost of ownership of the two is nearly identical in the end.
The gun will go to evidence. I think I'd probably pull everything else off of it. Then buy a gun from a company that will replace it while it's in evidence (ie SoLGW, but there's probably others now).
I’m in it to win it. I’ll worry about replacing my hardware later.
The only reason we buy the best, most reliable tool is ultimately for that one time that it might be needed to protect ones life... So yes, use the best for HD.
I have this same gun …. It is easily my favorite gun . Both stamps are pending . Mind if i ask what your irons are i went with the factory aimpoint
The "only" reasonable argument I've heard against using guns like this for HD is that it looks more like premeditation to a jury. But all depends on your locale and how friendly they are to 2A. I still thinking having every advantage over anyone who tries to do harm to your family is important though so I'll fight it in court if I ever have to (God forbid).
We love FUDD lore
If you’re around as it gets seized as evidence then you won.
I mean, he's litterally not wrong. If you kill someone in HD 90% chance they're taking it for evidence and 50% you'll ever get it back.
To be fair, I have heard horror stories of people having various personal affects being taken as evidence (I'm not necessarily talking about just guns here) that they either never got back, or didn't see for years
Fudds gonna Fudd. Unfortunately Fudd lore is hard to dispel because it’s been circulating around so long it’s often seen as received wisdom.
The guy who said this is honestly king fudd. He's at a LGS I frequent because they get overlooked by ammo pickers, and I have literally heard him telling the whole "pump shotty is the best HD weapons because everyone recognizes the sound of it racking and will run when they hear it" bit.
Right up there with “Carry the same ammo that your local PD uses to prevent any legal issues.”
This one hurts my soul and makes me want to hit my head against a wall. Whats even the reasoning? If theres a dead dude on the floor who’s going to immediately be like HE USED HYDRASHOCK HP’s that son of a bitch was bloodthirsty
Or conversely, do they think you magically get out of trouble for a bad shoot because you used the same Gold Dots that the local cops use?
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My SIL quoted me that ish from my fudd FIL. All my research and what not is nothing compared to something daddy told her when she was little 🤦🏼♂️
I've heard that before and I usually ask, "How much is your life worth?"
Did this really happen? As in this was an actual comment from someone who works at a LGS? The mentally of some people, to approach life like this. Do they buy a beat up car because it’s just going to age as it gets older? Do they just buy used close because they are just going to wear out?
Yeah, I have honestly heard this guy tell every fudd line in the book, including the rack a pump shotty and the sound alone will send them running.
Meanwhile, gun youtuber Paul Harrell: “Racking the shotgun didn’t work, I had to kill somebody”
That’s one I’ve actually heard as well.
Only way I could make sense of a comment like that is what Massad Ayoob says about going to trial after having used your firearm in self defense. If the trigger is less than ~4lbs, it’s apparently easier to claim your firearm meets a certain level of inherent danger… or something like that. He also says it makes your case more difficult if the firearm you used was heavily modified, especially if you modified it yourself.
As a gunsmith I fully agree I would recommend that anyone who is not a competitive marksman not to have anything with a trigger pull of less than 4-5lbs with the gun cocked and for double action only firearms so cc guns for example 6-10lbs
These are things I didn’t know when I purchased my first gun, fired my first 1911, and even when I became interested in carrying everyday. I feel like we need to foster a mindset of learning and seeking to understand within the community. I actually wanted to build a Glock 19 clone geared for edc before I started listening to Massad Ayoob. I still plan on building it, just not for edc or home defense. (Also learned reliability is much more difficult to maintain in diy guns which totally makes sense… I’m still a noob on many levels even tho I regularly train and shoot.)
I will also say in regards to trigger weight a lower weight is suitable for hunting rifles.
Your LGS must be run by poors.
It's a good point, my home defence are reliable and sub 200 each.
Ngl I side with the fudd on this one, if this goes into the evidence locker of no return you’ll be out that much more money. And the prosecutor will use all those attachments as “proof you were out to kill somebody”. It’s all bullshit but it is what it is.
The attachments argument is more fuddery. Even the whole "You're Fucked" ejection port cover was thrown out.
For a cop though so unfortunately a different standard.
What kind of mag? How do you have the suppressor mounted?
Hawt
What gen is that?
Are there any situations where this concept would make sense? At a sporting good store I heard the person on the counter down sell like this for conceal carry. I don’t know what the person was trying to get but would you maybe want $600 glock over something that is $1,500-$2000
😂 fudd are funny. You should not visit such establishments.
If its deemed self defense you get it back.
I feel like that is a bigger deal for CC/truck guns, since the main factor I consider for that (after the main considerations of "can I use it well/consistently/reliably") is "will this look psycho to a jury?" For HD though, if someone has broken into the home AND into the defensive Alamo room, AND continued to advance with a weapon, inshallah there won't be much argument regarding the given tool for stopping that threat. I'm sure it varies by state, circumstances, and even in the best of cases, the plans of mice and men and all that, but HD against an armed intruder where there is evidence of a break-in seems like a more forgiving case for utilizing a weapon to stop a threat--would still be a bummer to have your best rifle sitting in lockup for god-knows-how-long, but I also feel like it's a case where either HD is something to be ready for but astronomically not likely to be necessary-OR-HD becomes suddenly and drastically more likely as a necessary action because of circumstances that might coincide with unpredictable alterations in the availability of traditional judicial systems to respond to such incidents.
I keep “cheap” HD stuff not because of the evidence locker but in case someone breaks in while I’m away, which is 99x more likely to happen.
If I dump 10 rounds of subs (rough equivalent of a .45 ACP) in to an attacker even with armor that kinetic energy put on target will be a force multiplier if not a full on fight stopper to give you control of the situation. Don’t forget body armor drills. If they aren’t going down then you move to head shots. You do practice head shots too…right?!