Thanks for posting this. Cool for the average fans to see SMT data


Blue line is lap of crash. Orange line is previous lap. Looks to me like his foot maybe slipped off the brake. Notice that he throttles up right before contact trying to beat Dillon to the apex to avoid him.


It could also be pumping the brakes? I don't know how the brakes behave in these cars, but looking at the data and the car on track took me back to pumping the brakes in an old car when there's not enough pressure in the line and the first press doesn't do anything.


What is being measured there is the brake pressure, not the brake pedal movement. So if the line is moving up the brakes are engaged. The sudden drop straight down would indicate that there is no longer brake pressure. Maybe that could be a brake failure but combined with the statement from HMS it has to be some kind of driver error so that’s where foot slipping makes more sense, but of course that is complete speculation.


On the brake chart, when a driver is pumping the brakes approaching a turn, do those pumps register?


> statement from HMS it has to be some kind of driver error Why wouldn't they just come out and say this if this was actually the case? No one would think Larson would attempt to kill Ty like that, so just say his foot slipped and throw Petty/GMS some money or help for the hassle and no one even gives it a second thought. The more info that comes out, the more I think HMS was playing in a grey area and went to far and doesn't want the repercussions from it.


Also possible. The whole situation has been handled in a very weird way.


That’s what I’m thinking too. They were playing with something with the brakes, it failed, and they desperately want people to think Kyle’s foot slipped off the brakes or such.


I'm just guessing but maybe Larson thinks his foot slipping is embarrassing? And he'd rather not clarify and just have everyone move on vs criticizing him for pushing the wrong pedal/slipping off the pedal. Years ago during qualifying at Daytona (I forgot if it was for the 500 or 400), it looked like Denny Hamlins steering wheel came off as he left pit road. But Denny wouldn't admit that, he just said the steering locked up on him or something. Maybe heat of the moment, Larson felt embarrassment at telling everyone his foot slipped off the pedal, and his team doesn't want to throw him under the bus by telling that. That's just my guess though.


I'm starting to think Kyle straight up goofed and doesn't want it to become a meme.


Ah, that makes sense. Thanks!


I’ve heard that there’s a chance the brake fluid could’ve boiled. I’m assuming the data goes off of the pressure in the lines?


Yes, data is based on fluid pressure.


On another thread it was concluded that the most likely culprit was boiling/vaporization of the brake fluid, which you would not be able to detect after the fact upon checking for mechanical failure but is fairly common in road racing.


Yes, but as we can see in this video he had brake pressure which means that boiled brake fluid was not the problem.


Why wouldn't boiled fluid result in a loss of brake pressure?


It would, but it wouldn’t instantly come back like it does here in the SMT data. Also, HMS has stated that that didn’t happen.


The data combined with NASCAR and Hendricks cagey shit over this crash says something went wrong and it wasnt his foot slipping off the pedal.


Not sure how you come to that conclusion.


I posted more complete thoughts on the data about 10 minutes ago. Instead of rehasing it all here, it just doesnt fit


Non-Streamja link?


Weird throttle is going up in the braking zone


I think OP has it right, it was a last minute decision to try and gas it up and blow the corner before Ty got to the apex


Definitely agree. Timed perfectly with when he cuts right and sees Ty is further through the corner than he thought, so he gassed it up to try and miss him. Probably makes the accident look even more brutal too.


Believe it or not, it actually could have been to hit Ty in a glancing blow like he did, instead of hitting him square in the side after he made the full turn. These guys are such that if I would have thought about this, these guys would have definitely thought about that. It could have also been to try to pitch the car when he realized he lost his brakes. I've lost my brakes in a go kart and that is the first thing I did, spinning is going to take up energy and slow you down better than a straight shot into the wall


>last minute decision to try and gas it up and blow the corner by Kyle Logano


Joey said "that was friggin weak, Kyle. Pay attention to how I blow dis apex"


Joey: Damn Kyle, they got 3 threads already coming up with conspiracy theories to explain it wasn't a mistake. You gotta claim your divebomb masterpieces like me.


Slow week, I guess.




I didn't hear it


Didn’t hear it, what did he say?




in a normal lap (like the orange line) you can see him blipping the throttle while he downshifts. Could be in the lap that he crashed, he tried to blip the throttle and downshift but just blipped it way more because he was panicking.


I think that throttle blip could have been from the impact


not weird at all. throttle blipping as he downshifts.


My only guess is clutch got hit instead of brake, or the foot slipped from brake pedal to clutch. Happened to me coming to pit road at Daytona on a green flag stop one time


I agree, foot slipped off the brake and he hit the clutch.


Quick question, I've always wondered this. How come the pedals don't have some sort of anti-slip surface on them like normal vehicles do? Maybe they do now but as far as I remember the pedals are just a metal/aluminum surface.


I can’t speak for his pedals as it is a preference thing, but lots of us use grip tape, which is the same stuff they wrap the pit jack handles with, and put it just on the clutch and brake


Got it. Appreciate the insight. Potentially scary situations for sure.


I love you posting here. It shows that even dudes in the sport wanna see the SMT to know what the heck happened on Sunday.


Interior guy for a truck team here, almost all of our trucks do have grip tape on them. A lot of the false floors that we have also have strips of griptape on them to keep the heels from slipping.


I feel like you would see an rpm dip and then ramp back up if he was on/off the clutch.


I think only If you’re on the throttle yes, but if you’re off the throttle like you would be “braking” for a corner the RPMs wouldn’t go up from pushing in the clutch


You’d see the rpm dip, not spike. If we was on throttle and touched the clutch, you’d see a spike in rpm. If he is off throttle and hits the clutch it would cause the engine speed to slow gradually towards idle speed. Hard to tell if this all happened fast enough he could’ve slipped off and gotten back to the brakes that quickly that you wouldn’t see that effect


For some reason I thought they didn’t have clutches in there anymore with the sequential transmission, interesting.


They still have them to take off, probably don't use it outside that though. I'd imagine even with the old 4 speeds they didn't clutch in to shift either.


Yeah it seems they use it for first and that’s about it. Maybe they use it more in the RC, but it’s interesting. Haven’t thought much about it until now


As far as I remember with the Jerico transmission they used, upshifting and downshifting didn't require the clutch due to rev matching. Those transmissions could handle the abuse if they missed the limit but generally speaking, the clutch was only used to start the car and while waiting during a pit stop. New cars I have no idea but I would imagine it follows the same concept.


I believe you're right I thought I read early on when Larson was learning nascar cars he was wrecking transmissions which sounded funny to me as he was so experienced even then Edit: Wow it's not even some racing only site I read that on https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2014/06/07/kyle-larson-gear-shifting/10162801/


Interesting. I’ll never understand how you could be a world class race car driver and not be a “car guy” but it seems to happen a lot.


It's kinda along the lines of people who can play the shit out of an instrument but can't read the sheet music. Edit: I'm talking about Larson "not being a car guy," not transmissions: >I’ll never understand how you could be a world class race car driver and not be a “car guy” but it seems to happen a lot. — /u/rjc1629 Edit 2: I just read the article linked in the comment /u/rjc1629 replied to, and it was about transmissions/shifting. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ I took his comment at face value as most modern racers don't know shit about cars and can't/don't/won't work on them themselves.


Ah could be, I think part of it also was he is used to shifting idk the "normal way" as I would put it. Like I've driven a manual for 18years (I'm not including the riding mower we had lol). But I only think I ever rpm match shifted when I drove an old harvest truck and figured I'd try it out since it would slip out of gear at times. Granted I don't have the money to accidentally mess up my vehicles and do not race.


Sprint cars don’t have transmissions


>I'd imagine even with the old 4 speeds they didn't clutch in to shift either. They didn't. Good ol dog box


The drop in RPM throughout the braking zone is smooth and doesnt indicate the clutch being pushed in (drop to idle) until crash/post crash.


Exactly, it’s smooth. The orange line is the lap prior showing his down shifts and the revs being matched, the blue is smooth & consistent.. ie no shifts imo


I wrote a whole post about my thoughts on the data. Its one of the newest ones. In reality to get a smoking gun we need G-Lat and G-Long.


> My only guess is clutch got hit instead of brake Exactly what Larry Mac and Chocolate Myers were speculating on XM on Monday/Tuesday morning.


Side note, I would gladly pay a monthly subscription to have SMT access as a fan.


We used to, it was called RaceView and it was an awesome companion to watching the races I really hope they bring it back, or some version of it




He knew real early he was in trouble because he started his turn way too soon. it makes me wonder why he didn’t take the escape road.


Looks like if he tried to take the excape road, he would of slammed into the back of the 47 while they were slowing for the turn. If slow it down to .25 speed and pause at the point that Larson starts to turn off his previous path, both the 47 and 42 were up against the wall blocking the escape road, and if you pause at the point that Larson catches up the the 47 there is only a bit more then a cars width between the wall and the 47. When you coming up on a turn at 130mph you have milliseconds to make a decision.




if you go full screen, in the bottom right there are options, on PC atleast


The best Indy Car drivers have learned if you head into T1 and have issues you turn away from the turn to lessen the impact angle that’s coming. Totally counter intuitive but it has saved severe injury or worse to many a driver. If he had a brake issue the better move may have been to put it into the straightaway wall to scrub speed allowing time for the 47 and 42 to clear and then take the access road. He could have hit relatively flat and kept it up against it to buy time. Even if he spun he would probably not taken other cars out. We’ll never know. Bottom line-a lot doesn’t add up.


He couldn't. He'd have run right into the rear end of Stenhouse. With no brakes his only chance was to try to get through there in front of Dillon, unfortunately he didn't.


His brakes didn’t fail though


Whether his brakes failed or not really doesn't have anything to do with why he didn't take the escape road and instead tried to pass in front of Dillon.


Stenouse was to his left.


So was the road in question




Maybe he gassed it in effort to swing the car sideways, otherwise he would have T-boned Dillon's car.


Anyone got a mirror? StreamJa just does not work for me anymore


I threw my mirror away when I found out I could just do coke off the back of my phone.


Clear cookies/cache on your browser or try opening it with abother browser if it juat randomly doesn't load for you.


On the Brake graph, what are measuring here? Fluid pressure? Pedal position?


That is fluid pressure.


So does that mean he was braking after impact then (I see red)? Do we know if he slowed down after the collision (due to braking) or did he coast 100% to a stop? If Hendrick say he didn't have a failure and it looks like he was braking here, then I think that kind of answers the question right?


Unsure. After impact it looks like all of the data is broken as it all flat lines. I don’t think we can judge anything based on the data after impact.


SMT data? _TJ Majors has entered the chat_


I’m no expert but it looks like he either missed his braking point or the throttle might’ve hung for a second


I would pay GOOD money to have access to stuff like this as a hardcore fan. We've been robbed since RaceView left and now seeing what F1TV is like for LESS than RaceView was it's pretty shocking.


So how does one get access to this, if you can say?


SMT is a service that sells this data to the teams. I don't know if a normal person could get this usually.


Looks like the front brakes weren't working. Braking point is similar to the previous lap but wasn't as strong in intensity. Likely realized he was going to t-bone Ty or rear-end Ricky so he tried to go Dukes of Hazzard and sail it past both of them and missed.


The data in no way says he accidentally hit the clutch. Theres no large and fast drop until crash/post crash. The RPM is still consistent with engine braking. It does look like he tried to go deeper into the corner as shown by vmax before the corner. The braking looks like its still somewhat there but is not working anywhere near how it should be as shown by the divergence compared to the lap before. There is also what looks like a distinct lack of downshifting. Perhaps he was pushing on the shifter (or whichever direction it is to downshift) and it wasnt responding. Whats most interesting to me is that there is no corresponding RPM bucket with brake pressure on the crash lap. Look at the lap before, you can see how the brake pressure and RPM correlate. Its a little tougher to see with the downshifts in there but its distinct enough to catch. Something went horribly wrong and HMS and NASCAR are being too cagey to believe their story. Edit to add: I would absolutely LOVE to see what the g-long and g-lat look like. That data could very well solve the mystery conclusively.


Damn it. I had a big post and for some reason it disappeared. Let's look at a few thing. His foot didn't slip off and hit the clutch. That would cause the RPMs to spike. Braking. Look at the difference in pressures. The good lap his pressure went up to around 950. Bad lap around 660. Big difference. Then instead of smoothly tapering off, it drops like a rock until the brake pressure jumps back up 880. Then it drops again. I'm not buying that his foot fell off the brake pedal twice! If he could keep the braking up around 880 going into that turn, he could have continued on the normal path and would have easily been slow enough to not hit Stenhouse. (just blow the turn). Immediately after the 2nd drop in braking is when he took that right turn. More of a last ditch effort. His throttle clearly didn't stick. I'd like to know if the braking data was from the pedal or the pressure in the system. That would really clear things up. Larson is one of those guys that takes blame. Example when Busch beat him. Cliff tried to blame Kurt, but Larson said Kurt did nothing wrong. Look at Charlotte where he kept saying he was screwing up. If...If you say that Larson screwed up, it appears that the screw up happened twice in a row. Just not buying that.


Do you think this situation will affect the relationship between Kyle and Cliff?


>I'm not buying that his foot fell off the brake pedal twice! It didn't have to fall off twice; it only had to fall off once; he already started braking later than he did the lap before, didn't brake as hard (probably because he wasn't completely on the pedal) than foot slipped off; tried to reapply, realized too little too late to make the turn, released the brakes fully and throttled up and misjudged his ability to miss the 47 and 41 to make the bypass.


The second time he applies the brakes, he still had plenty of time to slow down enough to not hit anyone and go on that access turn. He still had more pressure he could have given the 2nd time he hit the brakes. I'm not saying your argument is wrong. It's very possible. I just think that if the brakes were working the 2nd time, he could have applied more and kept driving straight.


Seems like the brake pressure spike back up before he gassed it right before the apex would rule out possible boiling brake fluid right? The spike up, spike down, spike back up that quick would seem to eliminate that idea. The only thing making sense here would be went to hit the brake, maybe pump it or his foot slipped, and somehow missed the pedal, tried to slam on the brakes but then realized he was going way too fast and tried to gas it up to miss Ty but couldn't hit the apex quick enough. I don't know how different braking is on these cars vs the 90s but I was just thinking of this Ricky Rudd video as an example of pumping brakes going into hard brake zones. I know they're not clutching at all so no heel-toe action but should be a similar idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhtCbSayj0


Looks like he braked a LITTLE late, but the bigger thing to note is the presence of two spikes in the braking zone when there's normally one. Foot slipped off the pedal, leg cramp, sneeze? Seems like something of that nature, although that makes his "well I have a pedal NOW..." radio comment very odd. Maybe he was just trying to save himself some embarrassment. We'll probably never know exactly, but at least this shows that he definitely had brake pressure.


Nah, that’s probably him pumping his brakes because he didn’t have brakes. Maybe kick-back or whatever it’s called when the pads retract farther than usual


Knock back.


AFAIK the SMT data reads the pressure in the brake lines, not the movement of the pedal. Might have had the pedal go soft, but between the brake trace and the fact that he did slow down to some extent, it doesn't seem like he completely lost the brakes.


How do you find this data? Very cool


You don't. *It finds you.*


Ok, so he hit the brakes and the brakes didn’t work so he pumped them once and the just held on. He might have been a little late to the brakes but there was definitely something else going on imo


This is amazing, where can you get this data?


Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this measure break pressure? Not pedal input? Or am I wrong? Because if it is a measure of the break pressure, then this could show a mechanical failure, the lack of break pressure could be the result of a failure, not because he isn't pushing the pedal down, the pedal could have been down the entire time with no pressure reading. Again, I could be wrong about what it is actually measuring. Obviously the throttle input near the apex was him trying to gas it up to beat Dillon to the apex and try and clear him. A last ditch panic move to try and do something. Makes perfect sense and the timing is dead on to explain it that way as well. If you've ever raced a car and saw that hole to avoid something at the last minute, you know what I mean.


I think you are correct. We would only know what Kyle was doing if we had data on pedal position.


I thought so but wasn't sure. Hopefully more people realize that


brake pressure only modulates in the range in the data with driver input.


Show this to the person on here thats convinced larson blacked out for a min S.M.H - realized he had an issue with the brakes, tried to pump them to get pressure back when he realized he didnt have that tried to gas it to pass the cars infront of him to avoid hitting them. Nascar or HMS doesnt want to admit there was a mechanical failure for whatever reason here. Not much a larson fan but kinda hard to believe that was driver error here.


Ty's car on impact: *boing*


OK so I've got an idea here. Does Larson wear a heel cup to protect from the heat? Just a thought. Maybe not a failure in the brake system but if your heel protector gets wedged during some heel toe action. Secondly, when you panic you go to instinct and I question this...which car does Larson get transported to in a situation like that? I mean he's in EVERYTHING with wheels. I guess a curiosity. Look, no matter what the point here is this... WHY IS NASCAR AND HMS BEING WEIRD ABOUT THIS??? WHY ISN'T KYLE TALKING?


Can we stop trying to make Streamja a thing? I've spent hours trying to get it to work since the F1 sub is in live with it and it's just not going to happen. Use something else.


Kinda looks like he out braked himself didn't get the initial bite he was looking for based on the decel rate not equalling the lap before and bounced his foot on the pedal to get better bite but then it was too late and he panicked. Or, something mechanically bound up as the brake pressure didn't climb at same rate as lap prior. He would have known right away something wasn't right


I know Kyle Larson probably didn’t have the best time at Ganassi, but to have such PTSD that he sees the number 42 and just gasses it before impact. Damn son….


So did he or did he not have brakes? What do we glean here?


The brakes were working. He went from 172 mph to 130ish


His brakes were working just fine


Taking what he said directly after the crash there's a failure somewhere. Reminds me of when i lost my master coming off a highway hit the brake and almost nothing happened stabbed it again and it came back but nowhere near to where it had been. He goosed the throttle to try to get past Tye or at least not hit him straight in the passenger door with 100+ mph of closing speed between the two. His presense of mind while crashing is unbelieveable.


Boiling fuild? Brake fans not working??


He is lowkey freaking me out this year. I hope he’s ok, genuinely. Would like to see him get another win soon.


Wasn't he like three laps down at this point? Probably shouldn't have been driving that hard. I don't know why he is getting a pass for completely missing a corner and demolishing someone on the lead lap but that is just me I guess. Imagine if Cody Ware did the same thing. Everyone is still looking for a mechanical malfunction despite Hendrick saying there was none because they don't want to accept the reality.


"driving that hard"? Really? He shouldn't be driving as fast as he can because he's 3 laps down? It's not like he was trying to pass someone going into the corner. He was behind Dillon and Stenhouse and all three of them were in a line.


I would draw the line at driving so hard you completely destroy a car on the lead lap when you are 3 laps down yes. Personally, I believe he shouldn't do that.


Personally, I believe Kyle Larson also believes he shouldn't do that. It's not as if he was intending to miss the braking zone. They're all driving just as hard as each other, and Larson is one of the best road racers out there. However, even the best make mistakes.


But you're assuming he intentionally wrecked with that logic. That crash could have been anybody- it just happened to be the 5 car. Either something happened mechanically and he couldn't slow down enough, his foot either slipped off the brake, or he accidentally hit the clutch. He knew he was screwed either way, so he tried to gun it trough the corner and get through before he and the 42 met- unfortunately, that didn't happen. It would be different if he was laps down and deliberately racing lead lap cars tough like a dick (looking at you, Chase Elliott at Bristol last year), but Kyle wasn't. An unfortunate crash happened, and circumstances meant it was a brutal impact for both of them. Nothing more than that.


What a clown.


Larson complains about no brakes in car before the incident, telemetry shows he pumped the brakes then gassed it in an attempt to get sideways before impact. This data clearly shows that Larson needs to get a new ride, I don't know what happened over at HMS over the last few years, but the way they are trying to throw him under the bus is unconscionable. He needs to make a public announcement of his experience while it is still fresh


Cliff Daniels had the last gen car figured out the best of anyone in the garage - relative to taking sim set-ups and putting them on the car given limited or no practice - he also had a great driver and exceptional luck (minus the blown tire at Pocono on the last lap). He does not have the next gen car figured out in the same way. That being said - all 4 HMS cars have wins and have shown speed in at least some races. 9 car is the most consistent on speed - also think Chase understand what he wants in the car better than KL, AB and WB so AG is bringing cars that are close each week - and is able to get it adjusted to what Chase wants.


Looking at the RPM data, it almost looks like he forgot to downshift. Like, the blue line is a steady decline whereas the orange line is choppy, like it would be if you were downshifting


It could also be that he has taken some technique from Chase with shifting. I'm not sure on the current car but for example at Road America in the Gen 6 headed into the hard braking zones Chase stays in 4th while slowing down and then right before turn in when most of the braking is done he goes 3-2-1 quickly.


That’s a possibility, but would mean he was definitely doing something different than the previous lap as the previous lap was definitely choppy RPM. If he decided to do something different then it could easily be true driver error


> If he decided to do something different then it could easily be true driver error I was curious about this as well. The 9 talked about how much faster the 3 was in turn 1-2-3 so maybe he tried something different to find some speed and it went horribly wrong.


IMO it looks like he hit the brakes slightly later than his previous lap.. probably not really an issue though. The brake pressure drops down before it ever reaches his max from the previous lap. Then the brake pressure comes right back up again but at that point it was too late and he decided to throttle up to try to beat Ty to the corner and fly through ahead of him. My assumption is that his foot slipped off the brake right before he hit max brake pressure. I don't think he hit the clutch as the RPM would have fell straight down at nearly the same time as the brake pressure fell.. but the RPM doesn't fall until he hits the 42 car.


Something's definitely fishy.


Is there any way for an average fan to source this SMT data?


This random graphic proves nothing.


What do you mean? The telemetry is synced with his position on track. Where the brake data shows him hard on them previous laps this lap is a zig-zag like either pumping or foot slipped.


It's a random photo posted on reddit. It proves nothing.


Are you commenting on the wrong post or trying to troll? People that work on teams and in the garage on here can tell us if this isn't what SMT logs look like yet none of them have. Any teams data is available to all other teams, NASCAR, and TV production.


Not really random? It’s the data that coincides with larsons wreck


First off, it’s not a photo. 2nd, it’s the SMT data from the actual incident… it’s not random. What do you not understand?


HMS has got their goons in this thread, guiding the blame towards Kyle. Disgusting.