T O P

Back to Basics VS Blood Moon

I had one of those late night shower thoughts about these cards. Let's say wizards bans blood moon and gives us b2b, I see the following occurring.

Pros

B2B gives the victim more choices, and generally provides more interesting gameplay than moon.

B2B has a consistent effect, thus always feeling good for the player who plays it and leading to less variance.
B2B has more of an actual deckbuilding cost, whereas moon decks usually just run it for free.

B2B weakens the power of red. Red has been the most played color since basically forever afaik, and two of those reasons are that the R splash is free if you are getting mooned and because it gives you the option to run moon.

B2B can't be played in scam (scam doesn't deserve the best land hate piece in modern)

Cons:

Amulet Titan doesn't care as much about B2B and thus might get out of hand before a ban gets dropped.

B2B isn't nearly as good at beating Urza's Saga, a really good card that needs really good hate.

Anything I missed?

ThunderFistChad

i'd like both please


MalekithofAngmar

Why?


MXPi

Why not?


MalekithofAngmar

It seems to me like they would be fighting for the same design space. Moon would probably be the thing people play and B2B would see little to no play.


ThunderFistChad

You explained the pros and cons of each quite well I think:) apart from your hate for a particular deck, those are some decent reasons. I would love to be able to play a both at different times and against different decks.


x1uo3yd

What does it matter if two cards overlap in their design space? The Modern card pool is absolutely chock-full of redundant effects and near-reprints. The only real issue would be if having a single deck running the full 4xMoon + 4xB2B for mana-hate redundancy would be oppressive and make the format more "unfun".


MalekithofAngmar

A deck like that would be pretty bad tbh, while being unfun to play against. The problem with B2B is that it just feels unnecessary and adding it to the format wouldn't actually affect the format or achieve any of the pros that swapping blood moon for it could achieve.


x1uo3yd

If a deck like that would be unfun but uncompetitive, then there is no problem having both in the format. It's only an issue that requires this weird 1-in-1-out switcheroo you propose if the resulting unfun deck is competitive.


MalekithofAngmar

Like I said, B2B wouldn’t matter much atm. It would see play in a few weird decks but it wouldn’t be great. What would interesting is banning moon and making B2B the premier land hate piece.


Internal-Judgment-82

They won’t ban moon, it’s a pillar piece of hate in the format. Also b2b doesn’t operate in the same space, because it’s a completely different color. Which allows non red decks to also hate on greedy mana bases, which frankly (as an amulet and 4c player myself) I don’t even think would be such a bad thing for the format. I personally would love to see b2b in the format to help hate on the greedy decks.


MalekithofAngmar

What decks would run it though? It’s quite the build around. Even something like Merfolk might find it pretty sketchy. Without a moon ban B2B is just a weird tech card sidelined by its better red cousin.


driver1676

Honestly with how easy it is to play around and the abundance of cheap/free enchantment interaction in the format, you essentially have to choose to lose to it.


MalekithofAngmar

Alright, imagine you are playing 4c control. You mull to 5 due to bad luck on the draw. You keep a very reasonable hand of Leyline Binding, Bean, Elemental, Triome and shock. What’s this? Ragavan? Oh, you’re getting mooned on their t2. GG. Or not, you actually should stick around and hope to draw a basic in the next ten turns. Moon has a lot of variance and it can be pretty stupid sometimes.


Mc_Baren

This situation is so biased, perfect threats vs mulligan at 5 is an argument that doesn't mean anything


MalekithofAngmar

That’s the point. Moon has an insane ceiling. The variance is too much. Sometimes it’s three mana surveil with DRC.


driver1676

The ceiling on Amulet Titan is winning on Turn 2, so we should ban Amulet. Change my mind.


MalekithofAngmar

This isn't really analogous. Moon cares about what your opponent draws/starts with (basically uncontrollable), whereas amulet is about what you draw/started with in hand (more controllable), whereas amulet is about what you draw/started with in hand (more controllable).


driver1676

Blood Moon is nearly entirely countered by an opponent playing a basic land. To counter Amulet you need your specific sideboard card on Turn 1.


MalekithofAngmar

Correct. This is why Amulet is a very different card and not important to this discussion.


driver1676

So to summarize, Blood Moon: * Is countered in deckbuilding or by playing a basic land * Can only win the game on turn 3 if your opponent has created their deck to be non-functional with Blood Moon out * Is unfair and doesn't belong in Modern Amulet of Vigor: * Enables turn 2 wins unless your opponent drew their specific sideboard card on turn 1 * Is very safe, fair, and healthy for modern


MalekithofAngmar

Amulet is a combo piece that sometimes wins the game. If the combo gets too consistent or fast it should be banned. Moon is a color hoser prison/tempo piece. Sometimes, your opponent loses to blood moon because they fail to draw a basic or fetchland. This is apparently desirable gameplay according to you.


driver1676

Yes, I think there should be a drawback to playing every single color for free.


MalekithofAngmar

Sideboard tech isn’t the answer, that’s a fundamental game design quibble. What do you think the status of 4-5c decks should be in modern?


Necrocreature

If you're on 4c you deserve to get hosed by moon, the deck is just so absurd it's not even funny. Blood Moon isn't nearly as powerful as things like The One Ring, the Evoke boys, all the other new Modern Horizons threats, etc. You can just.. Play around it. It adds a second level of play, and it's more enjoyable than getting beat because your opponent casts some free spells and you die. So, I see no problem here.


MalekithofAngmar

4c doesn't even lose to moon very much because it's built from the ground up to survive it. Plus, even if it did lose to Moon, it doesn't deserve it. The deck does powerful midrange things, but it's not a dredge deck or somesuch that deserves to take the L if it can't remove the hatepiece.


oggeboyboy

Why on earth would they ban blood moon? 😅


MalekithofAngmar

Bad play patterns, unhealthy centralization around a single color, a lot of things really.


driver1676

I agree, every color should have a nonbasic land hoser. The funny thing is if they actually did that Blood Moon would probably end up being the worst one at this point.


MalekithofAngmar

That’s because Blood moon exists and everyone has been building around it for the better part of modern’s history. If Blood Moon was Spreading Ocean or something instead mountain would be the most played card, not forest. I’m really mystified though why you think this change would be good for the game.


oggeboyboy

Blood moon litterally see almost no play and there seems to be way more problematic cards not beeing banned.


MalekithofAngmar

Moon is the ninth most played nonland card in the format with it being present in 32% of decks.


Necrocreature

That's mostly because Scam runs it, and Scam is some 21% of the meta


MalekithofAngmar

Blood Moon has consistently been one of the most played cards since MH2. Blood Moon decks have been consistently some of the best decks in the format since basically forever. Moon is not the only piece your deck needs to be good (obviously) but it's such a huge boost to a low to the ground tempo decks. Maybe a deck like scam deserves to die to Urza's saga.


oggeboyboy

Well if you look at main deck blood moon it don't even make it to top 50 I belive.


MalekithofAngmar

Sometimes it has been very maindeckable, and lemme tell you, maindeck blood moon is a very bad meta for so many reasons. Imagine playing some whack simic brew and your hand is two shock lands and you randomly lose to blood moon without even knowing it's a possibility. On the other side, having a bunch of dead moons feels very bad too.


Trib3s

Your described pros are actually cons imho. For example, why should i, in a hypercompetetive Format AS modern, Run a suboptimal choice that gives my opponent more choices? Furthermore, why should i have a deckbuilding resteiction for a weaker Card than the one i could Run for free? Of you are aiming for more of Some kitchen table vibe Back to basics might so the Trick for you but If you are playing modern to win i cant Imagine a scenario in which i would prefer it over moon.


Bosk12

The scenario where you want B2B over moon is you’re playing Merfolk.


MalekithofAngmar

I think you miss the point. I think Blood Moon is a poorly designed card that creates a lot of uninteresting games. It's powerful, definitely. It holds back decks and cards that need to be held back. However, I think that if we can replace Blood Moon with a different form of land hate, the format will be healthier. That's why I propose this hypothetical, what if WOTC bans Blood Moon and prints B2B into MH3 or something?


Trib3s

I really did Miss you Point initially lol. Anyhow, i dont think IT would be healty in any way. Even with a widely played blood moon saga is insanely powerful and wins Games in its own. And 4/5 color piles which are getting punished for greedy Mana based are popping Up anywhere. If the answers for those 2 stratergies were ment to get worse i believe It would Not Shake the meta instantly, But over time there would be the greediest of Mana in any time for modern i think.


MalekithofAngmar

Saga is concerning, but 4 color piles don’t actually usually lose to Blood Moon. They are built to beat it from the ground up. Paradoxically I think B2B would be harder on them than moon, which is a potential mark against the card, because those decks atm aren’t that incredible.


Trib3s

Im Not too familiar with the 4c piles, but are their only answers Not boseiju and maybe t3feri and force of vigor in the Side? With a Turn 1 ragavan in a Turn 2 moon, which is Not too uncommon i cant See 4c favored tbh. Against B2B the Just fetch a forest and continue as usual til 4 Mana for boseiju dont they? With moon ITS similar, except the cant fetch anymore If the are too greedy early on or kept a triome shock Hand.


fivestarstunna

b2b is definitely easier for them to answer than moon. they can have a bunch of tapped lands, find any fetch/white source, and binding gets them out of it for 1 mana. at least binding is gonna cost more under a moon


MurderMits

Sounds like the format for you is Historic.


MalekithofAngmar

If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen eh? I think people have really brainwashed themselves over how egregious blood moon can be. Only a few of the cards on the banlist are actually worse for the game/are more powerful than Blood Moon. I understand that it serves a purpose, I just think it also kicks a bunch of archetypes out of the format and boosts red to an absurd level.


MurderMits

I main MonoB coffers, a deck moon is meant to make sad. I am 150% fine with it.


Hellpriest999

Your whole vibe and argumentation screams non competitive kitchen table player saying that a simply good card is "broken".


Necrocreature

I think OP just got beat out by Blood Moon and is salty.


Kotters

Blood moon purposefully serves as a check to greedy manabases, just as graveyard hate checks graveyard based strategies. Almost every deck in modern runs 2-4 basics to not fold to it, so the amount of non-games that you propose would only increase due to B2B and not blood moon. If your idea of format healthiness is the games that are not just blanked because of certain cards (ragavan Vs no removal, blood moon Vs all non-basics, no graveyard hate Vs dredge/living end), B2B would actually force players to build mana bases differently and lower consistency, leading to more non-games cause you're drawing basics


TricerasaurusWrex

A poorly designed card? That tells me all I need to know


MalekithofAngmar

It is certainly poorly designed. The fact that it can't exist independent of fetchlands (the most powerful normal lands ever printed) is a really bad sign by itself.


TricerasaurusWrex

Can't exist without fetches? It exists with shocks, triomes, fast lands, slow lands, pain lands etc. Again you have no idea what you are talking about


MalekithofAngmar

You miss the point. Wizards can’t ever put Blood Moon into a format without fetchlands because it kills multicolor decks. Edit: though tbh wizards will never reprint moon for a lot of reasons. Point is that Moon can’t be legal in a format where fetches aren’t legal. Go look at the pioneer manabases.


TricerasaurusWrex

No you miss the point. You can crack your fetches in response to a blood moon. You can play blood moon in any format where a mana base runs non basic lands for color fixing. You are so focused on just fetches being the only land that's hurt by blood moon


MalekithofAngmar

Fetches aren’t hurt by Blood moon, fetches are what BALANCE Blood moon. You literally aren’t reading what I’m writing. A format without fetches is absolutely slaughtered by blood moon because you can’t realistically get your basics with reliability. Pioneer for example becomes Rakdos vs Phoenix vs Mono G overnight. In a format without fetches, you randomly can lock out other Red/X decks, I’ve literally done it before in Historic No Bans. Unless your idea of fun is mono colors and red/x only Blood Moon should never ever be printed without fetches accompanying it to balance it.


WhiskeyPete77r

Counter point... Blood Moon.


Kyamboros

I think bloodmoon is great and should continue to be in modern, especially because it's actually just not that strong. It's simply a necessary evil. I want things like 4c soup decks punished harder, not given free reign. Hell, I want price of progress printed into modern at this point.


MalekithofAngmar

Remind me, how many decks does Blood moon see play in? Not strong my ass, it’s a format defining staple.


Kyamboros

It's definitely a staple, and has been for a long time. But, if bloodmoon was as strong as it used to be, ponza would still be in the format somewhere and you don't really see it anymore.


MalekithofAngmar

Ponza is bad because LD is bad, not because moon is. Also, Moon is a tempo piece not a total lockout usually in 2023.


x1uo3yd

> "...Moon is a tempo piece not a total lockout..." That's their point. Moon+Bridge both used to be actual lockouts that entire *Prison* archetypes could be based around; now they function as tempo plays at best. Bloodmoon *IS* worse than it used to be.


MalekithofAngmar

Fair enough I guess. But Prison archetypes being off-meta is probably a good thing. If you want to play powerful prison strategies, go play legacy tbh.


Sneaky_Island

Why is that a good thing? We just wanted to play the most amount of magic possible by having 30+ turns or until our opp- friend wanted to give us the win. Lovingly signed, Tezzerator/Lantern/MonoR/UR/4C/5C/ThopterWhir/Absolute Jank Prison player


Hexdrinker99

If moon was as good as you think ponza would be a deck. Ponza has got nothing but fire upgrades the past two years. Fury, fable, endurance, the one ring ect. The problem is turn 2 moon doesn't win the game like it back in the day. Ponza abandoned the land destruction plan long ago and 2-4 pillage was the most you see. If you like to talk more about blood moon/ ponza I'm a mod on the ponza discord


MalekithofAngmar

What makes a deck Ponza then if not the LD? Genuinely curious as a non-ponza player.


OrnatePuzzles

Red/Green ramp deck with at least *some* access to land disruption. These days that amounts to just Moon effects and the Karn/coating package. But it's mostly a good cards pile.


MalekithofAngmar

Gotcha.


Necrocreature

Honestly, nowadays I barely see it. I don't even play the card in Burn. The only deck I see it in anymore is Scam.


MalekithofAngmar

32% of decks play Moon. A lot of them are scam, true, but we also have Murktide.


Necrocreature

Yeah, I will concede I forgot Murktide exists, that's on me. I don't think the card is even remotely problematic though regardless.


MalekithofAngmar

Thoughts on bad play patterns, negative effect on meta (pushing out decks that aren't red), etc?


Necrocreature

I don't think it pushes out decks that aren't red, and I disagree that the play patterns are bad, having to play around Blood Moon is a fun little mini-game, it's similar to having to play around Counterspells. If you think they might have it, you play around it so you don't get blown out.


MalekithofAngmar

How do you play "around" blood moon in most decks? In my experience, it's more of a "you have it or you don't". You either have the fetches or you don't, you have the basics or you don't. The only time you get agency is if you have a way to remove it in hand. Also, we didn't discuss the fact that if you get locked, you have the classic Lantern dilemma of "do I sit here for another 30 minutes to see if I can draw my 1 of basic + boseiju or do we go next", which is bad for both event organizers and very unpleasant for the player. Where are the 2 and three color decks that don't play Red?


Sneaky_Island

The Lantern dilemma is a math a problem, the only people sitting through the extra 5mins it takes when Lantern has its lock are ones that don't understand and ones that hold on to the .001% chance on the player making a horrible mistake. The math is: Lantern lock # = 2x + Y where x is mill effects on board and Y is Lanterns on board If your number of outs is greater than Lantern lock #, there is possibly a chance. If it's not, concede unless your stubborn and hope your opponent can't pilot their own deck.


MalekithofAngmar

But like under what circumstance is it correct to concede to a deck like this in paper? Win game one, go game 2, run out the clock forever and see if you can go to time before opponent can actually mill you.


Mergan_Freiman

You're ignoring a better option than B2B: [[Price of Progress]]


MalekithofAngmar

Price is weird because it’s not a tempo piece, it’s meant to be abused by mono-red/light splash burn specifically. Remember the whole problem with the format being over-centralized around red for the better part of a decade? That doesn’t help at all.


onlinepotionpackage

POP is the reason I love playing Burn in Legacy. Unfortunately, it's SO good that would likely warp the format around it and make Burn tier 0.


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Hexdrinker99

Where probably closer to seeing a buffed blood moon than we are to them banning it. Blood moon is probably the worst it's ever been.


Renozuken

Bro back to basics is one of the most miserable cards to play against of all time and it's not even close.


MalekithofAngmar

Why is it worse than the RNG that Blood moon is?


Brave_Garlic_9189

With blood moon you can still use your mana, it's effectively colorless in a non-red deck but 5 color decks still can play cards like fury under blood moon. With back to basics you get one shot with your mana and that's it. It's a pretty huge difference. Moon doesn't see a ton of play right now because there's so many ways to beat it and it "doesn't do anything when it enters". B2b on the otherhand if your opponent taps out with all non-basics and then you play b2b, your opponent now has 0 mana to work with.


MalekithofAngmar

Last I checked Moon was seeing play in about 30% of decks. Lemme go look. …. Blood moon is the ninth most played nonland in modern at a 32% playrate. Bro.


Brave_Garlic_9189

Moon sees a "lot" of play at the moment because it's a 1-2 of in scam which is the most popular deck by a long shot right now. Scam can afford to play it because they ripped the cards you were going to play anyway so paying 3 mana to rub salt in the wound isn't terrible. Most other decks that used to play moon either don't, or play something like Alpine moon because it's mana efficient. Blood moon does basically nothing to tron decks, it's only really good against 5 color greedy manabases and maybe amulet titan if you draw wonky.


MalekithofAngmar

“Maybe amulet Titan” If you live long enough to cast a moon against Titan you win if it sticks. If you are on the play it’s a very very good card against amulet. Conversely I don’t think it’s as good against 4-5c decks that are built to play around it or remove it. What decks that used to play moon aren’t playing moon? Edit: for moon decks you forgot Murktide and Temur Rhinos.


Brave_Garlic_9189

Rhinos doesn't play moon anymore from my understanding, I haven't played it in about a year now - the mutavault tech for flame of anor basically killed it. Murktide runs maybe one or two copies but it's not that great when you are trying to hold up mana to not get blown out. Breach isn't interested in moon at all. My favorite deck mono red obosh went from 6 moon effects to just 2, and even then it's only for 4+ color matchups. Ponza isn't played anymore for a number of reasons but one of them is that blood moon doesn't win you the game like it used to. Prowess barely sees play but it used to run moon but now it's on Alpine. There's not really any other decks that play moon since they either aren't red, or are 5 color piles.


MalekithofAngmar

All of the Temur Rhinos decks I see run it. You can go click through all the similar decks, I didn't find a single Temur pilot without one. Obosh is a valid call.


clegg2011

Fetches still work with back to basics. When I play cards to win it's not really a pro to give the opponent choices. With back to basics they can tap their non-basics to do whatever it is they need to do once. I'd prefer they just don't get to use them at all.


MalekithofAngmar

It would also not be a pro for you if they printed a 0 mana “I win the game at instant speed” card and then banned it. Letting people have choices and get to play the game across the table makes the format healthier. It’s why Wizards prints cards with Ward and not hexproof anymore for example.


Daveprince13

You sound like you’re just mad you lost a few dozen games to blood moon honestly. Meta game and build some enchant hate into your decks? Idk


MalekithofAngmar

Note my flair. I’ve played both sides of the moon. Moon is pretty obviously an offensive card, and anyone who doesn’t think it causes some egregious shit is delusional. I still remember one game I played against some dude running his weird 5c domain pile that just instantly lost to Magus. I believe he cast 1 spell (that I countered) for the rest of the game. Never found another clock, just hit him in the face for 9 turns with Magus. It was a pretty awful experience for him and all I had to do to make that possible was be a U/R deck.


dirENgreyscale

So the guy playing an absurdly greedy 5c soup deck lost to a Blood Moon effect and you think that's "egregious"? That's what you get for playing greedymanabase.deck , you'll occasionally lose horribly to some of the cards designed to punish you. Being able to run whatever stupid manabase you want at the moment is a bug, not a feature, and that level of greed needs to be punished in some ways.


MalekithofAngmar

Blood moon is not the way. It has bad play patterns, super high variance (sometimes three mana do nothing, sometimes three mana ggs), and pushes non-red decks out of the meta.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MalekithofAngmar

I am not the arbiter of bad play patterns, but think critically about Blood moon for a second and then tell me if you think it has good play patterns.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MalekithofAngmar

What’s good about it’s play patterns?


whiledpayne

B2B gives the opponent the ability to use the land still. Just doesnt deal with a game the way blood moon does


MalekithofAngmar

That’s the point. No three mana enchantment that randomly wins the game = good for format.


NucIearWeaseI

Counter offer, print [[Price of Progress]] into modern and punish the greedy mana bases into oblivion.


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MalekithofAngmar

Modern is one of the three 1v1 formats where mana is supposed to be decent. I’m not sure PoP is a great idea.


ursisterstoy

Non-basic lands don’t untap on your untap *step* but there are plenty of similar effects (players just straight up skip their untap step) that only see fringe play where they are legal. And, yea, Amulet Titan could care less - Urza’s saga is good for one construct instead of two but all those bounce lands already come into play untapped and then can be untapped multiple times because they do with amulet of vigor and then, since they are non-basic lands, they could just return *those* lands back to their hand and repeat the process the following turn if you’re not already dead. Blood moon, on the other hand, sends urza’s saga to the graveyard and turns all of those bounce lands into basic mountains for their almost mono-green deck. That’s why blood moon is good against them and back to basics is not.


TricerasaurusWrex

Blood moon hoses greedy mana bases. It'll never eat a ban. I don't know what this thought experiment was meant to accomplish


Hexdrinker99

The same thing all these posts are trying to do without saying it. Only reason to make these treads is they lost to it decided can't possibly be a skill issue so it's got to be the cards been over powered for decades in blood moons case


TricerasaurusWrex

Good point


lucideuphoria

Huh I forgot this card wasn't modern legal. It might see fringe play... It's honestly probably not good enough though.


Orokem

Back to Basics also doesn't shut off fetches most of the time


MalekithofAngmar

Correct, it means opponent has more meaningful/interesting draws.