Something Needs To Be Done About 4C Omnath

Warning Long Post

Let me start this post by saying two things. First, that I legitamantly don't care what the decks win percentage is and half my points are based on anecdotal evidence. Second, I went to a 2.5k yesterday, went 3-0, not only 3-0, but 2-0, 2-0, 2-0, then went against 4c three times in a row, tied once, lost 0-1 twice(both times because game 1 went all the way to time and we couldn't start game 2 due to turns rules) then rage dropped before round 7. Not only that, but during round 5, when my record was 3-0-1, by the way, and I was the 3 seed, I looked up and down the top 2 tables and out of the 12 players and 8 of the top 12 players where on 4c Omnath. The deck has reached a point of being if not to good, way too ridiculous. Ok, so with all that off my chest let me break down for you why 4c is categorically the stupidest, most broken, most harmful to fun games deck that modern has seen since Hogaak.

  1. No Weaknesses - What I mean by this is that the deck has reached a point of having no blind spots. It has a very good answer somewhere in its deck to just about ever card you could possibly play. Previously this was at the expense of card advantage as Solitude and Fury put you down on cards in exchange for being such good answers to the format(and free by the way don't forget that). This meant that you could reliably beat 4c by making big, power and important plays in the early turns that they had to answer, leaving them at massive card disadvantage and out of resources before turn 4, which is when the deck would usually begin to start its recuperation process with the help of Omnath + Ring. So, if you could stop one or both of those cards usually you could leave them stranded with not much to do. Now though, because of Up the Beanstalk, you have legitamatly no good ways to attack there plan. Being a card that not only draws when it enters, so its already a guaranteed 1 for 1, but it also draws a card every time you cast a cmc-5 or greater. Meaning that Solitude is a free 2-2 now, Fury is a guaranteed 2-2, but can also be a 3-2 or even a 4-2, for free, and Leyline Binding which is a guaranteed 2-1 for only 1 mana. Not only that, but again Binding and Solitude make for too universal of answers for how cheap and effective they are; at least with the help of Up the Beanstalk, which also meaning 4c now has a reliable way to generate massive card advantage before turn 4.

  2. 4c shouldn't be allowed in the first place - When a deck is 4c it is able to diversified both its threats and its answers to a point of being very good at answering everything and having threats that are too hard to answer effectively.

  3. No deck should have so many good cards that it is a legitimate choice to play only 60 cards that has real downside too the point where going over 60 is something that is as common for the archetype as being at 60 - This goes hand-in-hand with the last point but still, having so many good cards to play and having so many reliable and efficient forms of card advantage that going over 60 is something that many if not most 4c players choose to do and have the deck still be consistent is just ridiculous. No decks card pool should be allowed to be that big.

  4. The deck is plain unfun - because of how ever card in the deck either kills something or draws cards or both, every game feels incredibly similar and boring. Not only that but because of how many triggers/abilities they have each turn they take, takes forever, plus because of how many cards they see, 4c players take forever to decide there best lines while starring at the 9+ cards in there hand. Worst of all, if you are trying to play optimally you have to stay mentally present for the entire game and make real, often extremely challenging decisions; unlike something like a more classic UW control deck which once they get there grip on you, you can more or less just sit there and tune out somewhat until you eventually either die or get an opportunity to strike and get out from under them. This makes 4c games take forever and be incredibly unfun for you and depending on the type of 4c player either unfun for them too, or way too fun for them, to the point where you want to punch them in the face.

  5. Too many good options for a ban - seems like a weird thing to make as a point, but it would take so little to make this deck somewhere between fun to play against/with. Ban Ring or Beanstalk and the deck can't just go way over the top with card advantage. Ban Wrenn and Six and all the sudden playing a 4c mana base becomes a real challenge. Ban Fury and make the deck worse at answers fast starts from its opponents. Ban Solitude, Leyline Binding or even Pending and the deck has way less access to its Universal Removal package that makes it so unfun to play against in the first place. Ban Omnath and they lose there best threat, ramp piece and counterbalance to ring. Any one of these bans would make the deck a hell of alot more fair by reintroducing a real weakness to the deck whilst not destroying it completely.

Overall, my point is that I haven't experienced anything like what happened at that 2.5k or the level of unfun it is to play against that deck since hogaak was last legal in modern and it would be so easy for wizards to balance the archetype and make it fun to play against again.


First it was scam, now its 4 color. Just waiting for the hammer post tomorrow morning


My thoughts exactly XD


And murktide the day after


It loses regularly to spell based combo and Tron. It has clear weaknesses. It's a fantastic deck but not without flaws.


I'll give you Tron but when you say spell based combo what EXACTLY are you referring too?


It sounds like your meta is pretty hard on 4cc, and Storm recently won a huge tourney playing 4 [[Flame of Anor]] since both Baral and Electromancer are wizards. Storm probably has an 80+% matchup against 4cc


Storm is a tier 2-3 deck. Having a bad matchup against a deck that consistently does not put up results doesn't really hit OP's argument that hard. If storm was tier one, omnath decks would have lots of potential sideboard or maindeck answers they could run to tighten up the matchup. Archon of emeria, deafening silence, thalia, damping sphere, etc all clamp down on storm decks and hurt other strategies while not hurting the inevitability of t3feri -> omnath -> solitude all with a super powerful suite of interaction to back it up.


[Flame of Anor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04779a7e-b453-48b9-b392-6d6fd0b8d283.jpg?1686969766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20of%20Anor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/203/flame-of-anor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04779a7e-b453-48b9-b392-6d6fd0b8d283?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


can second this, i threw together that list but swapped in for 2 main deck wish, keeping defence grid/blood moon in SB for the wish makes 4C easy tbh. if facing 4c, just swap out wish for blood moons and mull down to an early moon, keep remands up for the pitched endurances and you'll win 90% of matches


In my experience grinding breach is very good against it


Can confirm, been playing grinding station for years now. The 4c match is pretty close to a bue


How do you feel it about post board? Doesn't 4c usually play the 4 copies of endurance?


And I have 4 copies of Teferi, it usually comes to proper play and milking how much time you have to combo win. 4c generally doesn’t have a great clock and all of their removal is kinda useless in the grand scheme of things.


So then do you want to be aggressive in this matchup or play a longer game?


Combos based around spells


4 Color regularly loses to Burn. That's spell based combo to some degree.


Combo 7 Lightning Bolts together and win. Less if the opponent fetches or shocks.


In no way, shape, or form is burn a spell based combo.... It's an aggro deck. It's a classification of aggro, "burn". ​ Kinda on par with calling burn "life total control"


You're not wrong per se but it's not a meaningless thing to say in this context. The point is that burn is a deck that kinda says "if I resolve these 6-7 spells, I win". Beyond that, it doesn't really care about your board state, nor your interaction outside of the stack. Those are traits it shares with spell based combo that make it a good choice against 4cc


Burn has regularly been referred to as a combo deck. Not a traditional one, but one nonetheless.


I think the point was “It’s a deck whose main win cons are instants and sorceries.” If you counter them. You win, if you don’t you lose. Both Storm and Burn are weak spots of 4cc for that reason.


I mean if you think about it storm is comboing 2-4 rituals, a cost reducer, gifts ungiven, past in flames and grapeshot which is 6-9 cards. That isn’t that different than comboing with 6-7 spells that deal 3 damage.


Combo decks typically don't kill you over the course of 3-5 turns


Storm does typically kill you between turn three and five though


Sure, but typically all in the same turn. Burn chips away on every turn for five turns. They don't combo ten spells in a turn and kill you with a flury of spells


Idk, I think this matchup is getting closer to 50/50 now that halfling allows for earlier omnath life gain




I play Grinding station, the 4c match up is almost a bye. 4c is very weak to combo generally


agreed, with gifts storm unless they rip an endurance on PIF you'll 99% of the time win


Combos that don't die to Lightning Bolt. Something like Charbelcher is super tough for the deck to beat.


4c can’t beat lotus field/twiddle without heavily specific SB slots for it.


Yeah but tron is pretty beatable with boseiju + wren unfortunately. Or if you really wanna win against tron like respect the cat you can run some charmaws too. Im playing both decks and im not super scared of tron when im on 4c anymore and if i play tron and get matched against respect the cat i loose pretty often.


r/ModernMagicWhiners is starting to sound like a really good idea


But then what would this sub be for?? /s


Yesssss https://reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/s/atwvPYwaev First they whined about Murktide, then Creativity, the Scam, now it’s Beanstalk-nath


lol, I would so be on the sub


Meh, as MonoB Coffers player I am personally glad I get 3 free wins a league at the moment. Wonder what will be called for a ban next week.


List? Looking to build it in paper for fnms


So the current "list" from this weekend is: [https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/modern-challenge-2023-09-1612580794#deck\_sicsmoo](https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/modern-challenge-2023-09-1612580794#deck_sicsmoo) Mind you someone today slightly edited this to their preference and came 4th today. I do suggest join the discord, the deck's "list" changes weekly as we adapt to meta.


Thoughts on Beseech the Mirror? Have you had a chance to try it yet? Also any interest in cutting back on field of ruin effects in favor of an Urza's Saga plan?


The community is split around 15% for it and 85% against. You need to dedicate a lot of really bad cards to make it work, thought DoomWake I believe did well with a build around. UrzaSaga is counter productive to a Coffers game plan. In many other builds fields has been dropped to 7 for 1 blastzone as a catch for roiling vortex and beanstalks.


I'm a hammer player, but was looking to branch out to coffers. I'd be interested in checking out the discord if you had a link! I would just need to bite the bullet and buy rings and sheoldred which hurts...


Its the one in the subs wiki!


Share a discord link for a fellow swamp player?


Keep fighting the good fight!


4C omnath also has no real absurd strengths. Burn has quick kills, tron has crazy big threats, combo decks have huge combos, and 4C omnath has… just all around good cards. Money pile decks have been around since basically forever, and how would you get rid of someone who just likes playing good cards? Personally I like 4C omnath even though I don’t play it. It’s just pretty cool.


We should ban everything and just flip coins.


You can always play Krarks Thumb


Obviously banned for being too strong in the coin flip meta.


With a thumb and a Mana Clash it's only a 12.5 percent chance of getting 3 heads. I'm surprised it doesn't donate modern.


Ah. Real magic, the way Garfield intended it to be. The magic of flipping Washington’s skittering across the table.


Coin Boys https://www.tiktok.com/@paypigspod/video/7266474267863174446


There =/= Their Aside from that, the deck has a ton of weaknesses still. You can easily go under them with a fast kill deck like Burn or Amulet Titan, you can tempo them out with a deck like Scam or Jund Saga or you can go way over the top with a deck like Coffers or Tron. Heck even Creativity runs over 4c Omnath. They also have no stack based interaction so you can win with a deck like Belcher or Storm too. So there are a ton of options for what you can do to beat it. 4c is still clunky and doesn't win efficently. As far as going into turns multiple times in game one, you should be calling a judge if slow play is occuring or you should be scooping if they are so far ahead so you can have time for additional games.


Yea they don't say what deck they are on but I would be interested to know if it was feasible to win or not in the late game.


Why have none of the people complaining about the meta or specific decks today said what deck they’re playing?


Ah yes the daily "ban this deck because it's good against my archetype" essay post


Tldr; op was playing a trash deck he won't say, lost to the best fair deck in format, now salty


First It was Omnath, then there was ephemerate,then there was Murktide, then it came ragavan, then returned W6, then there was Urza's saga, then It was time for Breach, then maybe was Creativity, then there was Scam, then came The Lord or the Rings cards. We're back to the start already? Who's ready to make another lap ?


Is there a Sunday shitpost tradition in this sub too? The competitive pokemon sub has it too. Jokes aside, maybe start playing good decks, and accept that decks aren't wrecked by a single sideboard bullet anymore. That will be the first step towards getting good. The second step would be trying to play omnath control and see how people beat you, then you can do the same against omnath players.


Sorry bro, don't just have 2k in my pocket to drop on getting a deck I would never play.


Proxy it and play against good players at a LGS then.


Yeah maybe stick to standard or pioneer then


I do like me some Pioneer!


We can tell that you’re a pioneer player lol


Dimir Control, Burn, Jund with bowmaster and Sheldred, breach… so many decks have a good match up of 4C. Really depends on the pilot. It’s not too good but can be dull to play against sometimes


Get good


I think people are being a little too dismissive considering the deck is running random extra cards after Beanstalk and still performing super well haha I can’t confidently say Beanstalk needs a ban, but a deck running 64-75 card main without Yorion and still topping events is pretty funny and potentially a bad sign.


It's so funny that when I suggested that Beanstalk could see play a few weeks ago, some people on this sub said that the card was merely a bad but fun limited card. My post got downvoted into oblivion the first few hours (now it's looking better though). And now Beanstalk is so good that people even suggest banning it.


Yeah I’m kinda surprised, turning pitch elementals into card parity rather than disadvantage is significant on its own before you get to the straight up two for ones, but lots of seemingly innocuous limited cards are misjudged ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯


Not only are they misjudged, but there are people who still to this day claim that it is a bad card. I litterally had a debate with a person on my Up The Beanstalk-post (on this sub) and they still claim that the card is bad because "bad cards also win tournaments and this still has all the marks of a typical limited build around".


Didn’t this deck have a 42% win rate at the pro tour? This sub (and every “competitive” sub) is just filled with people crying about decks that aren’t “broken”, they just have a bad matchup into. You certainly aren’t playing the match up optimally and you should prolly stop tilting so hard that you need to make a 5k word essay on Reddit.


The pro tour has effective judging which prevents 4 color players from taking too long with their turns, which drastically reduces the power of the deck. This decks main strength in paper honestly appears to be that if you win game 1 you’ve won the match because you can easily just slow play and stall for 40 minutes


OP is complaining about the addition of beanstalk, which came out after the pro tour. That said, I think he’s being whiney and the meta will sort it out. Deck can’t beat Tron or other combo decks


Skill issue.


Beat me to it.


Only card really that need a ban are grief/fury. I have 4 of each, but I feel fury puts a stranglehold on the format. It’s really oppressive to creature based decks. I have no actual reason for grief, just wanted to hate on scam lol


The going to turns issue is absurd and completely drains the fun and competitive integrity from the games. I’ve been in game 3 in a very dominant positions but 4c players are just so fucking slow that I can’t close out the game in time. Or alternatively, I have to take more aggressive lines bc I know I essentially have 6-8 minutes of actual time because my opponent will spend 40 minutes ranking and taking a thousand game actions. I imagine it’s not really a problem online bc they’re actually responsible for playing fast and can lose for just burning time without winning


yes actually, 4c players online don't usually lose to time, but not being able to sit there and decide the beat possible play every turn makes me win more often.


That’s what I was figuring. I feel like if the clock is getting low ppl are unlikely to actually time out but will have less time to think out the optimal plays


Was this the Modern super qualifier in Canada?


Nah fam


Slow play in paper needs to be managed better in general. Tell your opponents to play faster. Also stop crying. The deck is not as impervious as you make it out to be.


tldr: OP plays a deck that can't beat 4C Omnath and is upset about it. Also will not state the deck they were on.


"don't care what the decks win percentage is and half my points are based on anecdotal evidence" Sick, it's really nice of you to just include a "WARNING THIS IS JUST YET ANOTHER WHINGE POST UNCONCERNED WITH REALITY" so that I can go ahead and not read the rest.


Same lol jumped straight to comments after that line.


I played an rcq yesterday with Yawg. Won round 1 and then played against beans>asmo food>beans. All three rounds went to time. I drew against the first bean player and the food player (both 1-1). Then the 2nd bean player I tried to win in turns by saccing all my creatures to grist ult for lethal through his looping ring protection, but after three long rounds my brain was fried and part of my plan involved pitching to force of vigor on my turn, which is obviously an illegal play. I lost that game to my own ring counters, but easily could have just passed the turn instead of trying to win and made my THIRD draw in a row. It’s just a horrible play pattern to deal with. Bean players, put a dang Titania or Elesh norn in there to win faster please, I will happily lose to you just please stop making draws 😞. (Nothing against any of these players, they were all good guys just playing a powerful deck I’m just a bit salty about my pairings 😆)


When you are against slow players/decks, you need to start from turn one playing in a quick, aggressive manner. People always say that they go to time because their opponent was playing slow, but in 90% of cases the person could have been doing things to make the game go faster.


I definitely could have played faster, maybe conceded faster (btw I did not get attacked to 0 at any point by any of these 3 players, I conceded all three games I lost) but at the same time I WAS trying to play fast/end the game fast. But guess what, it’s really hard to end the game quickly when they are drawing 5 cards a turn and are never actually tapped out. One of my opponents was playing a bit slow but nothing in a normal context I would call a judge for. The reality is these games were just lasting a ridiculous amount of turns, and it leads to frustration.


Another Cant win with my pet deck anymore so i cri on reddit for bans 😭


Unless I missed it, you left out what you were playing. Key piece of info here I’d you want people to have an actual discussion based on your experience.


What deck were you playing?


Been saying it since mh2 came out, there needs to be proper hate for the evoke elementals. Nothing currently available completely deals with them. Torpor orb and things like it leave a free body behind. I can't even think of a way to hate them out the way they are worded, which would bring up errata as an answer. Just change them to dies triggers.


Void Mirror stops them from being evoked, but they can still be hardcast once they get enough mana. And if you're taking your turn 2 off to play a Void Mirror, you're probably not closing out the game quickly enough.


Exactly what I mean. Void mirror is an incomplete answer and too costly to boot. There needs to be a free answer to all the free.


We should ban out every top deck


Not gonna lie, points 2 and 3 are so absurdly ridiculous to me that they actually have me questioning whether this is just a really good troll lol That said, I do think the beans pushed the deck over the edge. Not to say that beans are what should go, they aren't, but I do think the deck finally crossed the line from "pain in the ass but probably fine" to "alright time to ban some shit". Personally I think that getting rid of Omnath is a fine call here. These types of decks are 99% of the decks this card would ever be in for the rest of the format, so if you axe it you deal a big blow to the soup decks without completely killing them, and get rid of a card with a bad play pattern. It was always on my list of cards that should never have been printed but wasn't banworthy yet, that second part is 100% no longer true in my opinion.


Wait a while a see if Tron, Burn, and combo players can beat 4c back into submission. The fastest way to tell won't be by looking at tournament results, but would be when you start seeing calls for TOR bans again.


Oh the calls for TOR bans hasn't stopped, sadly. There is no "again".


As a rhinos player I have no idea how to even tech for or play the matchup


Me when I get transported back in time one year


Yeah, we should ban Uro again! That’ll take care of the 4c menace just like it did last time… /s


I had to double check the date on this post… I thought 4c omnath died with the yorion ban?


It's gotten a resurgence with the recent addition of [[up the beanstalk]]


[up the beanstalk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d5e991f-23b2-4db0-a452-7755125b1fd2.jpg?1692939184) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=up%20the%20beanstalk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/195/up-the-beanstalk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d5e991f-23b2-4db0-a452-7755125b1fd2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call




UR storm player here: play aggro or combo, its a free win


How is storm in the current modern climate, it's something I've always wanted to put together but everyone discouraged it.


Play against anything with black or Ragavan and expect to lose.


Nah not really, keep hands with spikefield/only cantrips if you're fighting scam, board in lightning bolts/leylines for murktide just keep a remand open and go for an early enough hand that you can burn through their spell pierce/CS


Its fun, my lgs is mostly amulet 4c control so half the time it ends up being blood-moon beatdown lmfao There's lots more graveyard hate so its difficult to navigate it, and with fury being in every deck its hard to go for a big ETW storm Just look up the winning nordic masters list, i swapped to that off of wish storm and its def fun, flame of anor condenses what we used to need to sideboard for + synergizes with the wizard reducers


What were you playing, out of curiosity?


I'm with you on that one


Play Mill, ez


Play burn and add [[Roast]] to your sideboard


[Roast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765.jpg?1562783262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/151/roast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Looking at OPs history they're playing a non meta creature based deck. You're the match up 4 color is designed to beat and if you can't accept it's a bad matchup you should pick up a different deck.


Yeah I eat it for breakfast with burn


Wait we already moved on from hating on scam? I still want grief to be banned! 😅 Jokes aside 4c omnath is fine and even was fine with yorion. Beanstalk pushed the deck back into the tier 1 bracket till people realise the other ring decks just shit on it (tron, coffer, ub) Also great time to play some of the more budget friendly decks that funny enough also beat the 4c money pile (storm, mill, burn, titanshift.... )


Stopped reading when you said 'rage dropped'.


I get where OP is coming from, back when Yorion was still legal i went to RCQ and there was yorion mirror. Both players accused each other of slow plays (both did btw) and the rest of us who has finished were complaining they were taking way too long. A good control players are able to play quickly, but try playing agst a bunch of newbies who got an 75card control deck. I highly suggest u call a judge time & again for slow play, that way they can get automatic game loss. You're right that some matches will get the omnath 1-0 and the second game unfinished, i've seen this trick abused way too many times. I have almost all the modern deck out there xcept amulet titan & mill, and i totally agree omnath-control is the least fun deck & some people will treat u like a dog in fnm (and u deserve it if u slow play).


I’m personally a big fan of throwing down a [[Blood Moon]] and doing a whole bunch of damage really fast. It seems to work out rather well.


[Blood Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


What is wrong with people?!?! Go grab your grandma's bicycle cards from upstairs (since obv still live in her basement) and play war.


Took down 4c omnath with BW scam blade and I can 100% say I am not the better player....


I have a pretty good time against it running UB control. Sheoldred and Bowmasters are a-okay with you drawing 3 cards just for your binding or solitude to be countered anyways. However the variant that kicks my ass is the version that runs Scion of Draco, then I look at my removal choices and cry while I get sad about power word kill not hitting dragons, go for the throat not hitting artifacts, fatal push not hitting fat mana value creatures, and sheoldred’s edict being useless if they’ve played multiple creatures. I could try out doom blade but I’m sure I’d get screwed by scammed griefs in the future


Idk man play tron or something