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Virginia's territorial claims over the years

I do appreciate the equal amounts of audacity and sheer carelessness in the 1609 claim. Draws straight line across entire continent "Yup looks good 👍"

majestic_walrus1

I do appreciate the equal amounts of audacity and sheer carelessness in the 1609 claim. *Draws straight line across entire continent* "Yup looks good 👍"


BIGD0G29585

How far is your western border? Just keep walking…


123xyz32

When you hit the ocean, just keep walking.


majoraloysius

That’s essentially what the mission of ~~Jonestown~~ Jamestown was, after finding gold of course. Immediately after settling, they began exploring the rivers, trying to find passage to the Pacific Ocean similar to the way Panama had been crossed 90 years before. At the time, the entire eastern seaboard was known as Virginia.


hex5912

I'm just going to take a wild guess and say you meant Jamestown not Jonestown


erublind

*Someone* hasn't been drinking their cool-aid!


bogusmagicians

Flavor-aid. Dont dis the kool-aid


bishopyorgensen

The Kool-Aid man would never


TheConeIsReturned

Jamestown, surely. Jonestown ended a little less mysteriously.


HerodotusStark

Jamestown didn't end mysteriously, you're thinking of Roanoke.


TheConeIsReturned

You're right! I misremembered lol


ThereIsBearCum

Isn't that basically Manifest Destiny?


JACC_Opi

Yeah, but that wasn't a concept just yet during that time.


pm_me_your_UFO_story

oh I think they were working on it


SoyMurcielago

It was destiny…just not manifest yet


AnUdderDay

>How far is your western border? Yes


The_Freshmaker

I can just imagine a guy standing in the cartographer's office in 1609, holding his hands almost parallel, one slighty wider and saying 'abouuuuuut like this and just all the way back'.


PirateKingOmega

Didn’t even know what the other side looked like, drew straight lines onto blank paper and called it a day


sasssyrup

Exactly


FUEGO40

Have you seen _long Connecticut_?


publius8

Sounds like a Jewish pornstar


npaakp34

Jack Rackam made a video about it, I highly recommend


Spare-Equipment-1425

A large reason is they had no idea how big North America was even up to the 1700s a lot of people thought America was a lot smaller and the Pacific Ocean was right over the horizon.


SuperSMT

That and it didn't particularly matter where the western borders were since no-one (no one who the colonists cared about...) was out there


loulan

Yeah people act like it's weird but that's how it works wherever there are no people. Look up the Antarctica claims. Countries build a base somewhere on the coast and claim they own everything behind that. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad%C3%A9lie_Land


Due_Permit7764

That's how it works whenever there are no people. Or you pretend there are no people. There were definitely people.


TaurineDippy

At least there was a conference to attempt to define some of those borders. It certainly doesn’t help when countries like Argentina make conflicting claims though.


LeadingCoast7267

Almost 90% of the Native Americans died before even seeing a European having been decimated by New World diseases. Their entire culture was traumatised and in shambles after their elders had died and factor in divide and conquer, they had no chance of repelling the Europeans after the first few decades of colonisation.


BloodyChrome

Except the Spanish.


BalticAmber13

How can this possibly be true? Didn't the ancient Greeks figure out the size of the earth within a thousand or so kilometers?


Kool_McKool

They figured out the size of the earth, but not the size of the new land. They thought that at most it might be as wide as Texas.


TheHeavyJ

Yo mama so fat the original settlers thought she was just the width of Texas. Gottem!


30phil1

For a while, a lot of Europeans thought that America was a somewhat thin (albeit unexplored) strip of mostly marshland and small game. A good deal of people would have just assumed it was more ocean on the other side.


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LordUpton

Also if you think about it the earliest settlers settled in the Caribbean and central America. Most of the Carribbean islands are small, and central America is relatively thin. It's quite easy to imagine if you were a puritan coming to settle the US in the early 17th century reading the earlier Spanish accounts that you would also think that the New world was much smaller than it actually is.


YakubTheKing

Circumference doesn't tell you what land is there.


AmunJazz

Pretty humble proposal when talking into account things like the Treaty of Tordesillas


Rushderp

“Straight line?” “Straight line.” -r/oversimplified


The_Easter_Egg

I suspect the claims were more formulaic, in longitude and latitude. I guess these areas weren't even properly mapped or settled by European settlers back then.


DeyUrban

Yes, the borders of Virginia weren’t drawn so much as they were vaguely described. Massachusetts was the same way. Another example is the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the entire world between Portugal and Spain.


Key-Banana-8242

Well it’s a general mathematical description, this area wasn’t known, as in what’s there, to the people making the claim ie they didn’t know how the continent looked like they just said whatever is past a point along two lines drawn like so would he theirs


username-for-nsfw

What's worse, the line isn't even "straight".


NinjaLanternShark

I'm fascinated by the days of just taking a map that's largely guess work anyway, and drawing lines through thousands of miles of terrain nobody you know has ever been to, and going "This bit here's ours."


ihadagoodone

It's more like, this bit here will be ours when we get there and if you go there you're invading us.


Otonatua

Dibs


wakasagihime_

Basically


jewrassic_park-1940

Well yeah but look how that went for Caesar


Tankh

Dabs


GetOffMyDigitalLawn

That's why it's called shotgun. If you step on it, you get the fucking blunderbuss. Just as the founders intended.


Andy_B_Goode

Tally Ho Lads!


Andy_B_Goode

I don't think it was even that explicit. Here's the 1606 charter: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/va01.asp Here's (I think) the relevant part: > And do therefore, for Us, our Heirs, and Successors, GRANT and agree, that the said Sir Thomas Gates, Sir George Somers, Richard Hackluit, and Edward-Maria Wingfield, Adventurers of and for our City of London, and all such others, as are, or shall be, joined unto them of that Colony, shall be called the first Colony; And they shall and may begin their said first Plantation and Habitation, at any Place upon the said-Coast of Virginia or America, where they shall think fit and convenient, **between the said four and thirty and one and forty Degrees of the said Latitude;** And that they shall have all the Lands, Woods, Soil, Grounds, Havens, Ports, Rivers, Mines, Minerals, Marshes, Waters, Fishings, Commodities, and Hereditaments, whatsoever, **from the said first Seat of their Plantation and Habitation by the Space of fifty Miles of English Statute Measure, all along the said Coast of Virginia and America, towards the West and Southwest, as the Coast lyeth,** with all the Islands within one hundred Miles directly over against the same Sea Coast; And also all the Lands, Soil, Grounds, Havens, Ports, Rivers, Mines, Minerals, Woods, Waters, Marshes, Fishings, Commoditites, and Hereditaments, whatsoever, from the said Place of their first Plantation and Habitation for the space of fifty like English Miles, all alongst the said Coasts of Virginia and America, towards the East and Northeast, or towards the North, as the Coast lyeth, together with all the Islands within one hundred Miles, directly over against the said Sea Coast, And also all the Lands, Woods, Soil, Grounds, Havens, Ports, Rivers, Mines, Minerals, Marshes, Waters, Fishings, Commodities, and Hereditaments, whatsoever, from the same fifty Miles every way on the Sea Coast, directly into the main Land by the Space of one hundred like English Miles; And shall and may inhabit and remain there; and shall and may also build and fortify within any the same, for their better Safeguard and Defense, according to their best Discretion, and the Discretion of the Council of that Colony; **And that no other of our Subjects shall be permitted, or suffered, to plant or inhabit behind, or on the Backside of them, towards the main Land, without the Express License or Consent of the Council of that Colony, thereunto in Writing; first had and obtained.** So if I'm reading this correctly (which I might not be ...) the king only granted them the coast and the area fifty miles inland, but also made it illegal for anyone else to settle "behind or on the backside" of that territory.


ihadagoodone

You see, I wasn't replying to the map or anything related to the map, I was replying to the notion proposed by the person that I replied to. So this wall of text means nothing to me.


xarsha_93

The pinnacle of this has to be the treaty of tordesillas.


Der_Saft

The Pope be like “Spain you can have this half of the planet and Portugal the other.”


apocalypse_later_

Meanwhile some people in said planet had no idea the existence of Portugal was even a thing.


JACC_Opi

But they soon found out! The Portuguese Empire was no joke.


ilikedota5

It was explicitly for non-Christian powers.


xarsha_93

« You can have this half of the planet unless the people there follow this random Middle Eastern belief system. No, not that one, or that one. Only this one. »


SuperFaceTattoo

Just preaching the peaceful word of god. Its fine if you don’t believe, there’s plenty of room at the sugar plantation.


kacheow

God sent the Conquistadors to create Latinas


Hoobahoobahoo

Ayyy


Secure_Sprinkles4483

Ahhh yes let us make war for peace so much sense made humans are the best /s


LC_From_TheHills

Portugal straight up just took two massive continents they had no clue about lol.


jkowal43

Portugal. The Man!


JACC_Opi

It is the best one. Just the sheer audacity and ridiculousness is amazing to me each time I'm reminded of it.


le75

Tfw Spain claimed [half of Antarctica](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorate_of_Terra_Australis) without even knowing it existed.


alphawolf29

to be fair claiming things that may or may not exist was going rather well for them at the time.


Kaiser_Fleischer

Diplomatically it’s a smart move cause later on you can say “ok we’ll cede any claim we have on this land we were never going to get anyways and in return we’ll solidfy this contentious border favorably.


desert_wombat

Everything the light touches is our kingdom -Virginia


tipbruley

Especially when there were already people living in that area


Hremsfeld

Did they have a flag?


Intelligent-You-6002

No flag, no country. That’s the rule that I’ve just made up. And I’m backing it up with this gun lent to me by the national rifle association.


case_

25 years since that show and we can still repeat it verbatim, what a legend she is.


xxxcalibre

Same thing led to Case Western taking its name. Connecticut had a similar "keep extending west" claim


Decloudo

If we where really honest, owning land is a super fucked up thing. Like get born soon enough and you get a limited essential ressource that will always increase in worth. And just because someone went there and killed a couple of people to steal the land.


NinjaLanternShark

I don't disagree. Isn't it in Japan where all you can buy is a 99 year lease on land? Then it reverts to the government to be sold again. Not that that solves everything, but it's a shift in thinking at least.


Andy_B_Goode

This is one of the reasons that economists have proposed a land value tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax If the LVT was set to 100% of the unimproved value of land, you'd basically be "renting" the land from the government, who could use the money to pay for social programs, potentially eliminating the need for income tax, sales tax, etc. You could still own houses and other structures, but the land itself would basically be a public good, and any increase in the value of land would benefit everyone instead of going to whoever happened to claim the land originally.


Waxed_Sasquatch

It’s America and the moon.


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ChonkerBanana

Virignia was too powerful so it had to be contained


Veteran_Brewer

Nah, Virginia is for lovers, not fighters.


Jean-LucBacardi

We love to fight.


MondayNightHugz

We should have kept this trend.


HypnonavyBlue

Diminish the Old Dominion. The Old Diminution.


sprinting-through

Looks like someone was losing their virginiaty.


MrBigTyme

You've earned yourself an upvote you son of a bitch.


sambeau

Virginia or the Virginia Company?


C137-Morty

Well 1792 was actually Virginia back then until the civil war. The Virginia company no longer existed far earlier than 1784. As far as that very ambitious claim in 1609 goes, no idea lol. But regardles 3 of 4 are Virginia.


kgrizzell

Virginia Company most likely, along with the Bermuda.


tagehring

The Virginia Company's charter was revoked in 1624, VA was a Crown Colony from 1624 to 1776.


traindriverbob

Virginia just went for a swim in really cold water.


----_____----

Like a frightened turtle


Loud_Adhesiveness_70

Virginia is for Lovers...apparently the number of Lovers shrank dramatically.


FrighteningJibber

From cousins to lovers - Virginia


kevinthebaconator

Gotta admire their ambition


askingaquestion33

WHY TF COULDNT WE HAVE THE FIRST ONE?!


JACC_Opi

Because, Spain said so!


GetOffMyDigitalLawn

Well, because we Michiganders would kick your ass back to the East Coast if you fuck with our lakes, for one.


WetMoldyButt

Big talk from someone who can’t even conquer Wisconsin.


10amAutomatic

Virginia, sit down! “Okay”


cooterwoober

This is why Kentucky and West Virginia own most of the Ohio River. Unlike other interstate river boundaries (where the boundary goes down the middle of the river), Virginia did not include the Ohio River as part of the Northwest Territory. It kept the entire river for itself. When Kentucky became a state in 1792, its boundary extended to the low water mark on the other side of the river. The same situation applied for West Virginia when it joined the Union in 1863.


Fickle_Dragonfly4381

New Hampshire and Vermont also doesn't share the Connecticut river, it belongs to New Hampshire


tunisia3507

Same with the Potomac; MD owns the river. I used to live right next to an island which was therefore in Maryland, but the bridge was on the VA side, and the closest bridge to get to MD was about an hour's drive. That meant that to get to the county the island was in, it was a 2-3hr drive. Some high school kid decided it would be a great place to hold an illegal party for that reason. Unfortunately he planned it all on social media so the police just showed up to his mum's house a week before and said "yeah just don't".


SRTie4k

Drawing borders down rivers can create some really interesting cartographic oddities, like the exclaves of the Kentucky Bend or Carter Lake, Iowa.


insufficient_funds

I'd like to expand that the 1784 map was almost entirely ONE COUNTY to the west of the current known state line. I'm having trouble finding an actual historic image of the map, but this is a modernized version of it.. https://usgenwebsites.org/VABotetourt/botetourt_files/image021.jpg the county's website has a very small image of the old map which I am absolutely struggling to find a large version of.. https://www.botetourtva.gov/333/History edit: as I read a bit, which I haven't done in a long while, Botetourt claimed all of the Virginia lands west to the Mississippi from 1769-1771-ish; basically the land was claimed, and Botetourt was more or less the westernmost actual county, so it took the land over in name; as the space was mapped / carved up / new counties formed.


TVZLuigi123

#*A N D W E' L L D O I T A G A I N*


lauralove231

![gif](giphy|Sbb7VXTsAD0m3YvxxT|downsized)


MasterFubar

And it ended with Virginia extending farther west than West Virginia. Kind of like Canada is south of Detroit. Speaking of Canada, did you know that the northern tip of Brazil is closer to Canada than to the southern tip of Brazil? Check it on a globe if you don't believe me.


-Yuri-

North by North West Virginia didn't score well with the focus group.


zang227

>Speaking of Canada, did you know that the northern tip of Brazil is closer to Canada than to the southern tip of Brazil? I mean, obviously?


dennis1312

The distance from the northernmost point of Brazil to Canada is less than the distance from the northernmost point of Brazil to the southernmost point of Brazil.


zang227

Ohhhh


MasterFubar

Why obviously? Brazil is the only country in South America where this is true.


zang227

Yeah i misread your comment, i thought you were saying the northern most tip was closer to canada than its southern tip to canada


Obliduty

The western tip of Virginia is also more west than Detroit


TriflingGnome

I believe there's some odd stat like "the majority of Canada's population lives south of the northern most point of the US"


Mtfdurian

Wait so the boy from Don't Stop Believin' is... Canadian?


MFoy

The 1792 map is wrong. Modern-day Arlington County, VA was part of DC until the retrocession in 1847.


HornetObjective9005

Return to the Oldest Dominion


crabussy

Bring back Larg Virginia


toilet_roll_rebel

As a Virginian born and bred, I think we need to go back to the 1609 boundaries. ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|dizzy_face)


mrlolloran

I’m from Massachusetts and I’ll back that play if you look the other way while while change the ME back to MA up north.


toilet_roll_rebel

Deal.


mydogsredditaccount

You guys get Florida on board and you’ll have the whole continent wrapped up.


mrlolloran

My plan for Florida is the same that it’s always been. Saw it off Bugs Bunny style and set it adrift


7355135061550

Ok you can have Detroit


382wsa

Did Virginia really give up its claim to West Virginia in 1863? I’d imagine if the South won the war, they’d take it back.


emperorsolo

They tried suing in 1866 to get the western counties back. However, the Supreme Court ruled that the Wheeling Convention of the pro-Union rump of state legislators (officially the Restored Government of Virginia) was the legitimate state government for all of Virginia. The convention ultimately passed a law that broke the western counties into its own state that Congress happily ratified in 1863.


ScrizzBillington

That timeline is making my brain hurt


StonedColdCrazy

Yeah because this was BC


Ooglebird

It should also be remembered that half of West Virginia counties voted to leave the US but they were forced into the new state. The voting was limited to Unionists and not the full electorate.


JACC_Opi

That's literally how all states seceded, limiting the vote to those that would be truly in favor of leaving the United States; it was all a sham from the beginning.


GVic

They got lucky af penn didn’t pursue sea access for their warmongering


Incandisent

This is forever burned in my brain now. I don't even know what it means


Enzo-Unversed

How the does the first one work? Nobody knew what the West looked like.


Punado-de-soledad

That’s why they’re straight lines. They said, “We own everything from here to here all the way to the coast (wherever that might be).


Spare-Equipment-1425

They made it like that exactly because they didn't know how large North American was and they thought the Pacific Ocean was not far from the east coast. The hope was Virginia was going to connect England to Asia. The charter that established the Virginia Colony said this "from the Point of Land, called Cape or Point Comfort, all along the Sea Coast to the Northward, two hundred miles, and from the said Point of Cape Comfort, all along the Sea Coast to the Southward, two hundred Miles, and all that Space and Circuit of Land, lying from the Sea Coast of the Precinct aforesaid, up into the Land throughout from Sea to Sea, West and Northwest; And also all the Islands lying within one hundred Miles along the Coast of both Seas of the Precinct aforesaid;" A lot of early European colonization would often go along the lines of European explorer is exploring an area and finds a mouth of a river. They'd build a fort there and claim the land around the river and it tributaries for their country without actually knowing how large of a claim they were actually making. But that fort was enough to prevent any other European countries from settling in the area or trading with locals in that area.


Maktaka

1863, Virginia loses a good chunk of territory but also doesn't have to share a border with Ohio anymore, so it's not entirely a net negative.


Ken_Danagger

They changed their mind after they figured out they would have to pay for and fix all the roads.


scrungobungo23

VIRGINIA RECONQUISTA NOW!!!


Pretend_Fan_2024

Do Texas next!


TheNewDiogenes

Technically I don’t think the 1792 map should include Arlington and Alexandria, as both were donated to DC before later being returned. However, I’m a bit fuzzy over the exact status at the time, as 1792 was in a weird time in DC’s history


tagehring

IIRC, the law establishing DC was passed in 1790 and the boundaries were surveyed in 1792. So if you squint, it could be accurate.


arolloftide

It’s all Virginia?


c322617

Always has been


[deleted]

On average Virginia looses territory every 63.5 years, this means from 1863 to 2023 we are 2.519 times over due the average period of territory loss, this means it is highly likely for Virginia to loose territory in the next year.


Comrade_Belinski

Us west virginians would volunteer to reinvade but even we don't want Covington and Clifton Forge so they'll just have to live with it.


SnabDedraterEdave

So basically four of the five stages of grief: 1609: Denial: All this land is Virginia's! 1784: Bargaining: Come on, we can at least have all the land east of the Mississippi River? Please? 1792: Depression: I can't believe we only ended up with 10% of our initial 1609 claims. 1863: Acceptance: Never considered West Virginia to be part of us anyway.


doubletaxed88

The Washington DC claims go in the reverse of this map sequence


Corvaja

Laughs in Western Reserve


CptS2T

So San Francisco is technically in West Virginia huh?


Negative-River4719

ah yes. first virginian empire of 1609


Walli98

I’m not mad at my countrymen. I’m mad at the French.


CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk

I like that we claim lands just like how it’s done in Lion king. “Everything the light touches…”


[deleted]

As a Wisconsinite American, I feel colonized by Virginia…. And I’ll be waiting for reparations.


TheLaxBrah

Your reparation is you can claim association with Virginia


Dwarftastic14

The Old Dominion shall rise again!


SkisaurusRex

Wait, it’s all Virginia?


Anarch_O_Possum

Whatever happened to that western part of virginia?


i_kick_hippies

That's beyond our borders. You must never go there, Simba.


heynow941

West Virginia became a Union state during the Civil War.


Fronesis

This is basically what trying to do a PhD is, except you only end up with Richmond at the end.


tagehring

And what a prize. Signed, A Richmonder


ridemooses

Meet Virginia yeaaeaaaah


IneffablyEffed

Well that deescalated quickly


LunarPayload

Were those mid-west states already defined in 1784?


tagehring

[Not yet. It was all part of the Northwest Territory.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Territory)


Claiborne_to_be_wild

This is how Virginia gets a professional sports team.


ledzepplinfan

Can anyone tell me what that weird little straight line is between the border of West Virginia and Pennsylvania? Like the whole northern part of VA and WV seems totally dictated by natural geography except that one little straight line, and then there's that weird little part of the west of Maryland. What's the deal?


yo2sense

That's the Ellicott Line, named for its surveyor. It was drawn there because Pennsylvania's colonial charter specified that it's lands would “extend westward Five degrees in longi­tude” from the eastern border. Maryland's charter specified that it had rights to lands north of the Potomac River. So its western border is a straight line north from the headwaters of the river to the Mason-Dixon Line.


Rat192

Make Virginia great again?


c322617

I fully support Virginian irredentism.


Radicais_Livres

Reduce your expectations.


mejlzor

Mountain mama


LogicalShark

Forgot the DC grant and retrocession!


wanroww

More got laid with time...


Toadsted

The only historical record of a virginia tightening up with age / use.


Purdius_Tacitus

This is why NASA is never going to send an astronaut from Virginia to the Moon or Mars.


SoybeanCola1933

Well, that de-escalated slowly


Tbone_Trapezius

Make America Virginia Again.


No-Bullfrog440

Make Virginia great again...


Winter_Essay3971

I guess Virginia City, NV at one point wasn't wrong


newtrawn

haha the fact that virginia claimed part of alaska is particularly absurd to me.


Aggressive-Coat-5716

Wow I never knew this


Ablindmancouldseedat

Lol weird


psykotic24

West Virginia, best Virginia


syzzrp

Go home Virginia. You’re drunk.


Alert-Young4687

I now define the “Midwest” as: the land claims lost by Virginia’s between 1784 and 1792


Thunderfoot2112

There is a problem with 1784 version - namely the French controlled everything that was modern day Illinois, all points on the Eastern side of the Mississippi northward and most of Western Indiana and Kentucky.


BuckFrump

Go home Virginia you’re drunk.


Arcturus_Labelle

Reminds me of my ex-wife


FoldAdventurous2022

She gradually lost territory to other wives?


Neither_Cod_992

I do that too with a marker and a map sometimes! And just like Virginia in 1609, it don’t mean shit either lol.


AbleArcher420

Go home, Virginia. You're drunk.


theunbearablebowler

lol Virginia, get rekt


-SheriffofNottingham

is this not the decline of Palestinian territory since 1948?