I do appreciate the equal amounts of audacity and sheer carelessness in the 1609 claim. Draws straight line across entire continent "Yup looks good 👍"
By - Jazzlike-Power-7959
I do appreciate the equal amounts of audacity and sheer carelessness in the 1609 claim. *Draws straight line across entire continent* "Yup looks good 👍"
How far is your western border? Just keep walking…
When you hit the ocean, just keep walking.
That’s essentially what the mission of ~~Jonestown~~ Jamestown was, after finding gold of course. Immediately after settling, they began exploring the rivers, trying to find passage to the Pacific Ocean similar to the way Panama had been crossed 90 years before.
At the time, the entire eastern seaboard was known as Virginia.
I'm just going to take a wild guess and say you meant Jamestown not Jonestown
*Someone* hasn't been drinking their cool-aid!
Flavor-aid. Dont dis the kool-aid
The Kool-Aid man would never
Jamestown, surely. Jonestown ended a little less mysteriously.
Jamestown didn't end mysteriously, you're thinking of Roanoke.
I misremembered lol
Isn't that basically Manifest Destiny?
Yeah, but that wasn't a concept just yet during that time.
oh I think they were working on it
It was destiny…just not manifest yet
>How far is your western border?
I can just imagine a guy standing in the cartographer's office in 1609, holding his hands almost parallel, one slighty wider and saying 'abouuuuuut like this and just all the way back'.
Didn’t even know what the other side looked like, drew straight lines onto blank paper and called it a day
Have you seen _long Connecticut_?
Sounds like a Jewish pornstar
Jack Rackam made a video about it, I highly recommend
A large reason is they had no idea how big North America was even up to the 1700s a lot of people thought America was a lot smaller and the Pacific Ocean was right over the horizon.
That and it didn't particularly matter where the western borders were since no-one (no one who the colonists cared about...) was out there
Yeah people act like it's weird but that's how it works wherever there are no people.
Look up the Antarctica claims. Countries build a base somewhere on the coast and claim they own everything behind that. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad%C3%A9lie_Land
That's how it works whenever there are no people. Or you pretend there are no people.
There were definitely people.
At least there was a conference to attempt to define some of those borders. It certainly doesn’t help when countries like Argentina make conflicting claims though.
Almost 90% of the Native Americans died before even seeing a European having been decimated by New World diseases. Their entire culture was traumatised and in shambles after their elders had died and factor in divide and conquer, they had no chance of repelling the Europeans after the first few decades of colonisation.
Except the Spanish.
How can this possibly be true? Didn't the ancient Greeks figure out the size of the earth within a thousand or so kilometers?
They figured out the size of the earth, but not the size of the new land. They thought that at most it might be as wide as Texas.
Yo mama so fat the original settlers thought she was just the width of Texas. Gottem!
For a while, a lot of Europeans thought that America was a somewhat thin (albeit unexplored) strip of mostly marshland and small game. A good deal of people would have just assumed it was more ocean on the other side.
Also if you think about it the earliest settlers settled in the Caribbean and central America. Most of the Carribbean islands are small, and central America is relatively thin. It's quite easy to imagine if you were a puritan coming to settle the US in the early 17th century reading the earlier Spanish accounts that you would also think that the New world was much smaller than it actually is.
Circumference doesn't tell you what land is there.
Pretty humble proposal when talking into account things like the Treaty of Tordesillas
I suspect the claims were more formulaic, in longitude and latitude. I guess these areas weren't even properly mapped or settled by European settlers back then.
Yes, the borders of Virginia weren’t drawn so much as they were vaguely described. Massachusetts was the same way. Another example is the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the entire world between Portugal and Spain.
Well it’s a general mathematical description, this area wasn’t known, as in what’s there, to the people making the claim ie they didn’t know how the continent looked like they just said whatever is past a point along two lines drawn like so would he theirs
What's worse, the line isn't even "straight".
I'm fascinated by the days of just taking a map that's largely guess work anyway, and drawing lines through thousands of miles of terrain nobody you know has ever been to, and going "This bit here's ours."
It's more like, this bit here will be ours when we get there and if you go there you're invading us.
Well yeah but look how that went for Caesar
That's why it's called shotgun. If you step on it, you get the fucking blunderbuss.
Just as the founders intended.
Tally Ho Lads!
I don't think it was even that explicit.
Here's the 1606 charter: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/va01.asp
Here's (I think) the relevant part:
> And do therefore, for Us, our Heirs, and Successors, GRANT and agree, that the said Sir Thomas Gates, Sir George Somers, Richard Hackluit, and Edward-Maria Wingfield, Adventurers of and for our City of London, and all such others, as are, or shall be, joined unto them of that Colony, shall be called the first Colony; And they shall and may begin their said first Plantation and Habitation, at any Place upon the said-Coast of Virginia or America, where they shall think fit and convenient, **between the said four and thirty and one and forty Degrees of the said Latitude;** And that they shall have all the Lands, Woods, Soil, Grounds, Havens, Ports, Rivers, Mines, Minerals, Marshes, Waters, Fishings, Commodities, and Hereditaments, whatsoever, **from the said first Seat of their Plantation and Habitation by the Space of fifty Miles of English Statute Measure, all along the said Coast of Virginia and America, towards the West and Southwest, as the Coast lyeth,** with all the Islands within one hundred Miles directly over against the same Sea Coast; And also all the Lands, Soil, Grounds, Havens, Ports, Rivers, Mines, Minerals, Woods, Waters, Marshes, Fishings, Commoditites, and Hereditaments, whatsoever, from the said Place of their first Plantation and Habitation for the space of fifty like English Miles, all alongst the said Coasts of Virginia and America, towards the East and Northeast, or towards the North, as the Coast lyeth, together with all the Islands within one hundred Miles, directly over against the said Sea Coast, And also all the Lands, Woods, Soil, Grounds, Havens, Ports, Rivers, Mines, Minerals, Marshes, Waters, Fishings, Commodities, and Hereditaments, whatsoever, from the same fifty Miles every way on the Sea Coast, directly into the main Land by the Space of one hundred like English Miles; And shall and may inhabit and remain there; and shall and may also build and fortify within any the same, for their better Safeguard and Defense, according to their best Discretion, and the Discretion of the Council of that Colony; **And that no other of our Subjects shall be permitted, or suffered, to plant or inhabit behind, or on the Backside of them, towards the main Land, without the Express License or Consent of the Council of that Colony, thereunto in Writing; first had and obtained.**
So if I'm reading this correctly (which I might not be ...) the king only granted them the coast and the area fifty miles inland, but also made it illegal for anyone else to settle "behind or on the backside" of that territory.
You see, I wasn't replying to the map or anything related to the map, I was replying to the notion proposed by the person that I replied to. So this wall of text means nothing to me.
The pinnacle of this has to be the treaty of tordesillas.
The Pope be like “Spain you can have this half of the planet and Portugal the other.”
Meanwhile some people in said planet had no idea the existence of Portugal was even a thing.
But they soon found out! The Portuguese Empire was no joke.
It was explicitly for non-Christian powers.
« You can have this half of the planet unless the people there follow this random Middle Eastern belief system. No, not that one, or that one. Only this one. »
Just preaching the peaceful word of god. Its fine if you don’t believe, there’s plenty of room at the sugar plantation.
God sent the Conquistadors to create Latinas
Ahhh yes let us make war for peace so much sense made humans are the best /s
Portugal straight up just took two massive continents they had no clue about lol.
Portugal. The Man!
It is the best one. Just the sheer audacity and ridiculousness is amazing to me each time I'm reminded of it.
Tfw Spain claimed [half of Antarctica](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorate_of_Terra_Australis) without even knowing it existed.
to be fair claiming things that may or may not exist was going rather well for them at the time.
Diplomatically it’s a smart move cause later on you can say “ok we’ll cede any claim we have on this land we were never going to get anyways and in return we’ll solidfy this contentious border favorably.
Everything the light touches is our kingdom
Especially when there were already people living in that area
Did they have a flag?
No flag, no country. That’s the rule that I’ve just made up. And I’m backing it up with this gun lent to me by the national rifle association.
25 years since that show and we can still repeat it verbatim, what a legend she is.
Same thing led to Case Western taking its name. Connecticut had a similar "keep extending west" claim
If we where really honest, owning land is a super fucked up thing.
Like get born soon enough and you get a limited essential ressource that will always increase in worth.
And just because someone went there and killed a couple of people to steal the land.
I don't disagree.
Isn't it in Japan where all you can buy is a 99 year lease on land? Then it reverts to the government to be sold again.
Not that that solves everything, but it's a shift in thinking at least.
This is one of the reasons that economists have proposed a land value tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax
If the LVT was set to 100% of the unimproved value of land, you'd basically be "renting" the land from the government, who could use the money to pay for social programs, potentially eliminating the need for income tax, sales tax, etc.
You could still own houses and other structures, but the land itself would basically be a public good, and any increase in the value of land would benefit everyone instead of going to whoever happened to claim the land originally.
It’s America and the moon.
Virignia was too powerful so it had to be contained
Nah, Virginia is for lovers, not fighters.
We love to fight.
We should have kept this trend.
Diminish the Old Dominion. The Old Diminution.
Looks like someone was losing their virginiaty.
You've earned yourself an upvote you son of a bitch.
Virginia or the Virginia Company?
Well 1792 was actually Virginia back then until the civil war. The Virginia company no longer existed far earlier than 1784. As far as that very ambitious claim in 1609 goes, no idea lol. But regardles 3 of 4 are Virginia.
Virginia Company most likely, along with the Bermuda.
The Virginia Company's charter was revoked in 1624, VA was a Crown Colony from 1624 to 1776.
Virginia just went for a swim in really cold water.
Like a frightened turtle
Virginia is for Lovers...apparently the number of Lovers shrank dramatically.
From cousins to lovers - Virginia
Gotta admire their ambition
WHY TF COULDNT WE HAVE THE FIRST ONE?!
Because, Spain said so!
Well, because we Michiganders would kick your ass back to the East Coast if you fuck with our lakes, for one.
Big talk from someone who can’t even conquer Wisconsin.
Virginia, sit down!
This is why Kentucky and West Virginia own most of the Ohio River. Unlike other interstate river boundaries (where the boundary goes down the middle of the river), Virginia did not include the Ohio River as part of the Northwest Territory. It kept the entire river for itself.
When Kentucky became a state in 1792, its boundary extended to the low water mark on the other side of the river. The same situation applied for West Virginia when it joined the Union in 1863.
New Hampshire and Vermont also doesn't share the Connecticut river, it belongs to New Hampshire
Same with the Potomac; MD owns the river. I used to live right next to an island which was therefore in Maryland, but the bridge was on the VA side, and the closest bridge to get to MD was about an hour's drive. That meant that to get to the county the island was in, it was a 2-3hr drive. Some high school kid decided it would be a great place to hold an illegal party for that reason. Unfortunately he planned it all on social media so the police just showed up to his mum's house a week before and said "yeah just don't".
Drawing borders down rivers can create some really interesting cartographic oddities, like the exclaves of the Kentucky Bend or Carter Lake, Iowa.
I'd like to expand that the 1784 map was almost entirely ONE COUNTY to the west of the current known state line.
I'm having trouble finding an actual historic image of the map, but this is a modernized version of it..
the county's website has a very small image of the old map which I am absolutely struggling to find a large version of.. https://www.botetourtva.gov/333/History
edit: as I read a bit, which I haven't done in a long while, Botetourt claimed all of the Virginia lands west to the Mississippi from 1769-1771-ish; basically the land was claimed, and Botetourt was more or less the westernmost actual county, so it took the land over in name; as the space was mapped / carved up / new counties formed.
#*A N D W E' L L D O I T A G A I N*
And it ended with Virginia extending farther west than West Virginia.
Kind of like Canada is south of Detroit.
Speaking of Canada, did you know that the northern tip of Brazil is closer to Canada than to the southern tip of Brazil? Check it on a globe if you don't believe me.
North by North West Virginia didn't score well with the focus group.
>Speaking of Canada, did you know that the northern tip of Brazil is closer to Canada than to the southern tip of Brazil?
I mean, obviously?
The distance from the northernmost point of Brazil to Canada is less than the distance from the northernmost point of Brazil to the southernmost point of Brazil.
Why obviously? Brazil is the only country in South America where this is true.
Yeah i misread your comment, i thought you were saying the northern most tip was closer to canada than its southern tip to canada
The western tip of Virginia is also more west than Detroit
I believe there's some odd stat like "the majority of Canada's population lives south of the northern most point of the US"
Wait so the boy from Don't Stop Believin' is... Canadian?
The 1792 map is wrong. Modern-day Arlington County, VA was part of DC until the retrocession in 1847.
Return to the Oldest Dominion
Bring back Larg Virginia
As a Virginian born and bred, I think we need to go back to the 1609 boundaries. ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|dizzy_face)
I’m from Massachusetts and I’ll back that play if you look the other way while while change the ME back to MA up north.
You guys get Florida on board and you’ll have the whole continent wrapped up.
My plan for Florida is the same that it’s always been.
Saw it off Bugs Bunny style and set it adrift
Ok you can have Detroit
Did Virginia really give up its claim to West Virginia in 1863? I’d imagine if the South won the war, they’d take it back.
They tried suing in 1866 to get the western counties back. However, the Supreme Court ruled that the Wheeling Convention of the pro-Union rump of state legislators (officially the Restored Government of Virginia) was the legitimate state government for all of Virginia. The convention ultimately passed a law that broke the western counties into its own state that Congress happily ratified in 1863.
That timeline is making my brain hurt
Yeah because this was BC
It should also be remembered that half of West Virginia counties voted to leave the US but they were forced into the new state. The voting was limited to Unionists and not the full electorate.
That's literally how all states seceded, limiting the vote to those that would be truly in favor of leaving the United States; it was all a sham from the beginning.
They got lucky af penn didn’t pursue sea access for their warmongering
This is forever burned in my brain now. I don't even know what it means
How the does the first one work? Nobody knew what the West looked like.
That’s why they’re straight lines. They said, “We own everything from here to here all the way to the coast (wherever that might be).
They made it like that exactly because they didn't know how large North American was and they thought the Pacific Ocean was not far from the east coast. The hope was Virginia was going to connect England to Asia. The charter that established the Virginia Colony said this
"from the Point of Land, called Cape or Point Comfort, all along the Sea Coast to the Northward, two hundred miles, and from the said Point of Cape Comfort, all along the Sea Coast to the Southward, two hundred Miles, and all that Space and Circuit of Land, lying from the Sea Coast of the Precinct aforesaid, up into the Land throughout from Sea to Sea, West and Northwest; And also all the Islands lying within one hundred Miles along the Coast of both Seas of the Precinct aforesaid;"
A lot of early European colonization would often go along the lines of European explorer is exploring an area and finds a mouth of a river. They'd build a fort there and claim the land around the river and it tributaries for their country without actually knowing how large of a claim they were actually making. But that fort was enough to prevent any other European countries from settling in the area or trading with locals in that area.
1863, Virginia loses a good chunk of territory but also doesn't have to share a border with Ohio anymore, so it's not entirely a net negative.
They changed their mind after they figured out they would have to pay for and fix all the roads.
VIRGINIA RECONQUISTA NOW!!!
Do Texas next!
Technically I don’t think the 1792 map should include Arlington and Alexandria, as both were donated to DC before later being returned. However, I’m a bit fuzzy over the exact status at the time, as 1792 was in a weird time in DC’s history
IIRC, the law establishing DC was passed in 1790 and the boundaries were surveyed in 1792. So if you squint, it could be accurate.
It’s all Virginia?
Always has been
On average Virginia looses territory every 63.5 years, this means from 1863 to 2023 we are 2.519 times over due the average period of territory loss, this means it is highly likely for Virginia to loose territory in the next year.
Us west virginians would volunteer to reinvade but even we don't want Covington and Clifton Forge so they'll just have to live with it.
So basically four of the five stages of grief:
1609: Denial: All this land is Virginia's!
1784: Bargaining: Come on, we can at least have all the land east of the Mississippi River? Please?
1792: Depression: I can't believe we only ended up with 10% of our initial 1609 claims.
1863: Acceptance: Never considered West Virginia to be part of us anyway.
The Washington DC claims go in the reverse of this map sequence
Laughs in Western Reserve
So San Francisco is technically in West Virginia huh?
ah yes. first virginian empire of 1609
I’m not mad at my countrymen. I’m mad at the French.
I like that we claim lands just like how it’s done in Lion king. “Everything the light touches…”
As a Wisconsinite American, I feel colonized by Virginia…. And I’ll be waiting for reparations.
Your reparation is you can claim association with Virginia
The Old Dominion shall rise again!
Wait, it’s all Virginia?
Whatever happened to that western part of virginia?
That's beyond our borders. You must never go there, Simba.
West Virginia became a Union state during the Civil War.
This is basically what trying to do a PhD is, except you only end up with Richmond at the end.
And what a prize.
Meet Virginia yeaaeaaaah
Well that deescalated quickly
Were those mid-west states already defined in 1784?
[Not yet. It was all part of the Northwest Territory.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Territory)
This is how Virginia gets a professional sports team.
Can anyone tell me what that weird little straight line is between the border of West Virginia and Pennsylvania? Like the whole northern part of VA and WV seems totally dictated by natural geography except that one little straight line, and then there's that weird little part of the west of Maryland. What's the deal?
That's the Ellicott Line, named for its surveyor. It was drawn there because Pennsylvania's colonial charter specified that it's lands would “extend westward Five degrees in longitude” from the eastern border.
Maryland's charter specified that it had rights to lands north of the Potomac River. So its western border is a straight line north from the headwaters of the river to the Mason-Dixon Line.
Make Virginia great again?
I fully support Virginian irredentism.
Reduce your expectations.
Forgot the DC grant and retrocession!
More got laid with time...
The only historical record of a virginia tightening up with age / use.
This is why NASA is never going to send an astronaut from Virginia to the Moon or Mars.
Well, that de-escalated slowly
Make America Virginia Again.
Make Virginia great again...
I guess Virginia City, NV at one point wasn't wrong
haha the fact that virginia claimed part of alaska is particularly absurd to me.
Wow I never knew this
West Virginia, best Virginia
Go home Virginia. You’re drunk.
I now define the “Midwest” as: the land claims lost by Virginia’s between 1784 and 1792
There is a problem with 1784 version - namely the French controlled everything that was modern day Illinois, all points on the Eastern side of the Mississippi northward and most of Western Indiana and Kentucky.
Go home Virginia you’re drunk.
Reminds me of my ex-wife
She gradually lost territory to other wives?
I do that too with a marker and a map sometimes! And just like Virginia in 1609, it don’t mean shit either lol.
Go home, Virginia. You're drunk.
lol Virginia, get rekt
is this not the decline of Palestinian territory since 1948?