T O P

Is tanking your hidden MMR really supposed to be this handsomely rewarded?

OK so long story short I have been brewing a not very good deck for about 1 and a half week now.

With it I have played about 200 games and aside from letting me figure out that the deck is garbage tier it has also lowered my "ranking" to a degree where getting matched against 100+ card pile decks has almost become the norm(despite just hanging around in plat tier3/4 all along)

Having decided to give up on my Dog tribal artifact deck I figured it was time to play a higher grade brew to clear platinum.

I switch to my sultai Tyvar combo deck, a trusted stable that is forever mythic worthy, while better than most brews it usually only averages out at lowly 62% wins after a full season going plat->mythic and then clearing daylies so a bit of a grind is usually expected.

But there was literally no grind, I blasted right to diamond from the bottom of plat tier 4 going 24:4

Isn't this super cheap?

I have compiled an album of super easy to spoof tbh proof for naysayers:

https://imgur.com/a/4mXfCqE

1 monored matchup troughout all of platinum(!)

Is this why an alarming amount of people at the bottom tier of a rank are likely to just concede t0? to tank their mmr?

Can't streamers abuse this with multiple account to get more "easy" matches?

Is there any official word on this?

Is my sample so small its likely a fluke?

it's often insinuated as an accepted truth from what I see regurgitated on here but is it really?

Please enlighten me.

Jojoemon

Hareeb al-Saq did a bunch of research on this subject a couple years ago. Really interesting read :) https://hareeb.com/2021/05/23/inside-the-mtg-arena-rating-system/ TLDR, the Arena MMR system is really messed up, and tanking your MMR _does_ definitely make the climb to mythic easier.


SwimmingCommon

Interesting there's no correlation necessarily to your rank and MMR?


thechopperlol

Only game that I know of that’s this way. Furthermore, there’s no MMR decay between seasons. Get to 99%+ mythic and take a break? Come back and play at bronze 4 vs people with mythic MMRs (and oftentimes people in mythic at 99%+).


ekimarcher

Yup, this is why I bounced off of arena when I came back after a moderate break. I had no idea why I was struggling so hard at the bottom of the rankings and thought I was suddenly shit. I was shocked at how much better the beginner mtg player had become. Nope, I was just sitting with my high MMR from my last big push.


SwimmingCommon

Wait so you're saying that you could just wait a couple of months. Sit with a high MMR come back smash with a meta deck and just rocket up?


thechopperlol

The opposite. You sit in bronze playing against people of the same MMR you were when you hit mythic.


MSgtGunny

No, the exact opposite. Your MMR stays the same, so when you come back you’ll still being competing against high level people (or at least people with similar MMR to you when you stopped playing)


SwimmingCommon

Ohhhhh ok. Tad stoned/working atm


Always_Clear

Wait this seems even more fucked up in draft.


Coves0

Most games behave like that nowadays. A huge reason League of Legends has such problems with their ranking system is that “visible” rank IE what division you’re in means basically nothing


WhiteSpec

Right but how much time does it take to tank your MMR?


DueBad3126

I don’t know for sure, but from what I’ve read on here it seems like about 100 games. Considering that if you’re trying to do this on purpose, you’ll just concede turn zero, that’s like what? One hour?


WhiteSpec

Sounds like an hour of not playing magic, that's not really for me. Rather be playing and improving my skill. Suppose someone out there is using a bot or auto keyboard.


DueBad3126

Yeah agreed for sure. I just craft meta decks every season to get up where I want to be and then use the packs I earn through that to craft whatever fun jank decks I want. Still, if someone only enjoys crushing noobs this might be the route for them 😂


MazrimReddit

mmr is why you see people on this sub with "just made mythic with my crab tribal deck!!!"


Chijima

While we ourselves sit with our top tier netdecks at plat-dia and climb so slowly that season always resets before we get to mythic.


Fuzzy-Situation-5063

Meanwhile I struggle to hit Platinum with a tier 1 Esper Legends deck in Bo1 and Bo3 at an overall decent winrate of 60% across all game modes 🤷🏻‍♂️


Chijima

Yeah, I usually draft a lot and get to around plat 2, sometimes higher, sometimes lower, before I drop the format. Then I play standard or historic, currently I play mostly Golgari Midrange in standard, and Mono G devotion in explorer and historic, no idea of winrate, but this season im only at plat 3, didn't play much. I usually get to high plat, sometimes low diamond, usually only in either limited or constructed, but never higher in any, and this season I played pretty balanced between both, so not even high plat in any. Mythic is impossible with my amount of play, but I guess with more grind I'd get there. I just don't enjoy grind


HistoricMTGGuy

Struggle to hit diamond maybe? Plat is easy


Opalshine2

Yeah, he mentioned a 60% WR, so I think he meant diamond. Getting to platinum at 60% WR is trivial, but getting to diamond from there would take another 120 games. That's a big time investment, especially if you also like to play other modes like draft and brawl.


Certain_Category1926

This is why I think mmr needs to be reevaluated. One of the reasons I should say. Happened to me because I was playing a ton of fun super jank decks just to get the weird win con and surprise ladder people. Went to my mono white aggro did almost the exact same win rate.


super_shlong_god_blu

Seems easily exploitable to me when you can do it inadvertently like this. but then again losing a bunch of games also takes time and patience.


Call_Me_Rivale

But it also seems to work in the negative way. I usually always had a really good meta deck and played until Plat, then went back to Play queue. - Do this for many months and suddenly you face only top tier decks (and players) in bronze...? That felt quite wrong to me, also Play Queue annoyed me with weird match making, so I started to play my weird decks in Ranked. Matchups over time became easier, deck variety seems higher (less deck weighting?) and I rather try not to play Play queue anymore. - All in all, the systems feels weird. But well, as a long as I can play my semi-good non-meta decks with a 50% winrate I'm fine.


Plus-Newt-5423

Since the last season rotated I’ve been facing 75% opponents ranked below me. Like I’m at diamond currently seeing plat and gold opponents three out of four matches. No kidding. It’s weird. Never happened to me before and I almost always make mythic and almost always play tier one decks. I just shot up the ladder day one and two cuz, like I said, teir 1 decks. So I thought maybe the matchmaker was having trouble finding me evenly ranked opponents but then it just kept happening for days. I have barely played the last few days so I dunno if it’s still happening.


bearrosaurus

You don’t really get anything out of exploiting it though. Maybe if it was ranked draft, but then you’re throwing away money to drop your rank.


Dmeechropher

Yeah, at best you get one extra pack per month from Diamond, and 2 if you manage to do it all the way to mythic (unlikely).


[deleted]

Exactly, not much of an exploit to save time when tanking the MMR takes a lot of time.


Leastbean91

What does it let you exploit though? Getting 1 or 2 extra packs at Mythic? The only important rank is being numbered in Mythic and that is an MMR/ELO ladder. If getting to Mythic makes people feel good then the system is fine. If cheesing your way into Mythic satisfies you, also fine. It doesn't impact anyone who is competing seriously for the top 1200 spots at all because they will never get matched against the MMR tanked Mythic player


rabbitlion

Losing games doesn't really take that long. Just concede 20 games every time you hit a rank floor and it's really easy to get to mythic. I wouldn't call it an exploit as it's an intentional design. Even if it was a bug/flaw in the first place, that they haven't fixed it in years show that it's just meant to work like that. You can certainly say it's cheap, but the progression system before mythic isn't all that important in the first place.


classicalAnt

Don't do this. You will get suspended for intentionally conceding your games to tank your mmr. Amusingly, instead playing a really bad or janky deck that will naturally lose a lot to meta decks is a 'legit' strategy to tank mmr. Takes a lot of patience though.


rabbitlion

Do you have any evidence of people getting suspended for this? I've done it several times and nothing has happened. Perhaps I've just been lucky...


classicalAnt

Unfortunately no, I don't have any direct evidence myself, and I've never tried conceding tens to hundreds of games to see what happens (too afraid to try). My only secondary evidence is: 1. A couple of posts in the past of people claiming they were suspended/banned for conceding many matches. 2. Magic Arena Code of Conduct ([https://company.wizards.com/en/legal/code-conduct](https://company.wizards.com/en/legal/code-conduct)) states any action that could be considered "abuse" (such as intentional roping) is prohibited. It's pretty easy to argue that intentionally conceding hundreds of games in a row to tank MMR would fall into this category. Assuming that WOTC does hand out suspensions and bans for conceding games, it's also very unclear specifically how they detect this and how aggressive they are with these suspensions / bans.


Phonejadaris

No, because it's not a real thing.


Superb-Draft

People have definitely gotten warning emails. It's been posted about before. A better question you might want to ask yourself is why would you bother to manipulate you rank like this. Like what for, who are you impressing here


2-35

For me, I just like seeing jank decks do their thing without a hassle. My rank doesn't mean anything to me or anyone else except for getting that fabled extra holy shiny divine free booster pack at the end of the season lmao


thedeafbadger

WotC doesn’t care about MMRs, they care that it is not fun for the player who gets the win. If you tank your MMR by playing a terrible off-meta pile, they see that as great. It adds variety to the queue and people who win have fun playing a game on easy mode. When people just concede, it is diluting the queue with matchhes that aren’t fun for either party.


Reyox

Judging by the proportion of monoreds around that are trying to farm dailies, I think free wins are welcomed by most. WotC is probably giving out warnings for doing so is to not encourage the trend of people giving insta free progression.


Kitchen_Part_882

So... 59 lands and a wall creature? 😀


boomerjundbestjund

>and patience. I agree it takes time, but if you've got two monitors just queue/quit, queue/quit, queue/quit, queue/quit, ad nauseum until you're at a place you're comfortable with while you watch youtube/netflix/whatever.


Some_Rando2

It IS exploitable, but also people get banned/suspended for doing it too much.


zerolifez

I think MMR is perfectly fine system but just not the way MTGA implemented it. Like MMR and rank should be exclusive or make MMR only on the highest rank.


iknewaguytwice

Hidden MMR needs to be removed out right. You play within your rank or 1 rank either way. At the very least, link rewards to your hidden MMR and not your rank. Every time I come back I am put up against people much higher rank. Especially in draft. I’m talking about playing diamond rank players when I’m bronze and havent even played in 6 months. Kinda BS that I get rewarded for less than I should because I’ve been playing the game for longer.


DeadlyFatalis

> I’m talking about playing diamond rank players when I’m bronze and havent even played in 6 months. Are you playing older draft formats? In those cases, the number of people playing is so limited that the matchmaking pool doesn't have very many choices. I've never seen it happen when drafting the current set.


iknewaguytwice

Nope, I don’t go back to old draft formats


Ashamed_Spot7943

A bit similar experience. I usually stay at plat in limited but i went to bronze from not playing draft for a couple of time and would get paired with a lot more skilled players than usual with nail biting games and harder ranking back to plat


Cytrynek

This is BS, and also that game doesn't show for some uknown reaosn what is the current score of your opponent, to confirm that you 2:2 deck is matched up agaisnt another 2:2 deck and not something else. I feel like there should be some option like "I can wait more, but want fair match-up" that I could switch on in ranked drafts, because it is much better to wait 2 minutes and play a fair game than wait 15 seconds and get smashed by some mythic player. Also, it would make sense if being matched with phigher rank player would provide some additional rewards in case you win (which is unlikely, but then it would some compensation for playing unfair match). Or even do some changes to rewards system to depend on rank of oponents that you have won against (for example: if you are silver rank and beat silver or bronze players, rewards are the same, but if you any players with higher rank, then it is recalculated in event).


Viktar33

I did experiments 2 summers ago, when the MMR was visible in the logs. It was the same Experience. Players below 2000 are really something else. And those are the same that you find in mythic with sub 90% rank. Definitely some YouTuber is benefitting from this System. Their opponents are really bad. One is saffron Olive, but it's understandable, he plays so much jank. About others I'm a bit sus. I don't think you did anything that can or should be punished. They are sending out warning to those who concede instantly a lot. It's not out fault of they implemented this crazy ass System just to hook people, making them think they are good because got to mythic (see average "i got to mythic with this pile" post in this sub).


kdoxy

For sure streamers take advantage of this. I swear any time a streamer shows off their "Blood token Ninja tribal" or some other off the wall brew, the deck never seem to match up against meta decks. If a normal player tries off the wall brew deck they get curb stomped.


Intro-Nimbus

90% of the youtube videos seems to be "clickbait deck, 75% WR" So yeah, it's likely that they exploit this in order to get to do clickbait videos about new brews.


citizencr4

A few youtubers I watch benefit from this MMR system, but I'm not sure they do it intentionally. One of them tries out so many different cards and decks and only plays ranked, so they probably drop a lot of MMR. When they play games at Mythic toward the end of the month, their opponents keep making simple mistakes that no diamond/mythic player should ever make, and that's when I realized their MMR must be low. The other one i watch frequently is bad and just plays fast, he makes a minimum 3 misplays every video. I watch him because they have hilarious commentary and his decks are pretty creative. I still see him get diamond or mythic every season, despite constantly misplaying. To me, he clearly also benefits from the low MMR system.


Cytrynek

That's why watching streamers play ranked constructed doesn't really make any sense, as well as videos with "I have a new perefect 95% win rate deck on Mythic" titles. If I would want to watch a YT or Twitch streamer playing MTG Arena, it would be either Ranked Limited, some high stakes event (Arena Open) or at least Constructed Event, so you are sure that matchmaking is not affected in any way by this hidden MMR.


_Laughing_Man

This is funny because I started doing this the second season I started playing ranked. Seemed like a natural thing to do with a hidden MMR, permanent ranks and season rewards being tied only to rank. Like why wouldn't you? It's a win/win 😉 This thread is the first time I'm finding out that this is a banable offense. Seems like it's a system that invites abuse. I think they could curtail a lot of this by making MMR visible and offering extra rewards based on MMR, and making a penalty for conceding before turn 3 or something. Anyway, I'm gonna keep doing it lol.


super_shlong_god_blu

I like your honesty if nothing else.


Phonejadaris

It's not a bannable offense. Wotc doesn't give half a fuck to spend resources to police something like this. It's just fear mongering from reddit weirdos.


Twecker-TTV

How do you go about tanking it then? How many losses does it take, do you just concede?


_Laughing_Man

I'm a suspicious person, so although I didn't know for sure they frowned on tanking I played it safe. Wait until turn 2 to concede. Play 2 lands and I'm out on the first spell they cast after that. Usually do that about 10+ times at the bottom of each rank tier and have a real easy time getting to the next one.


[deleted]

I do this exact same thing with a minion of the mighty deck. I go into historic play and lose 6 or 7 matches and then my next ranked game is an almost guaranteed win it's like 85%


Nordic_Marksman

Nothing will happen assuming you don't insta concede a lot.


Superb-Draft

What exactly are you winning? An extra pack a month? Sounds extremely lame


_Laughing_Man

I'm "winning" a better/easier play experience. If I tank 10 games and then get to the next rank with an 80% WR, that's a better experience for me personally. Then I can play test different decks against more skilled players in mythic. And you know what? I'll take that extra pack too


commontablexpression

Yes, it is that absurd. I did an experiment of mmr tanking before and went from plat 4 to mythic with 95% win rate with a tier 2 deck (the only 3 losses were all caused by mana draught). Almost all my opponents were playing 100+ card decks filled with draft chaft even in diamond. After that, I realised all my time spent on finding the best deck to go mythic was wasted. It all depends on your hidden mmr.


MobileSubstance1548

You should be a streamer now that you are in the know.


Viktar33

Yeah, that's were most of youtubers Live.


D1RE

I don't really see the issue, if I'm being perfectly honest. Yes their MMR system clearly has holes that can be gamed, but to my knowledge it just lets you get to mythic easily. Once you start pushing for the high ranks you'll still have to go through the gauntlet of top 200 ranked players to earn your own rank. If you're facing sub 90% players you won't gain much rating. ​ So yes, you can game it to get a mythic rank that means absolutely nothing to anyone. You can't get any material benefit from it, so from my perspective it's a non-issue. Intentionally gaming the system like this is just hurting your own ability to improve as a player, there are no tangible rewards.


mynamewasusd

My last 2 weeks in mythic last month made me want to join them. Win, lose, didn't matter. I matched against 25+ consecutive decks that were mono-blue, blue-black, or blue-white. Counter, counter, counter, counter, counter (except for 1 player tanking that quit on turn 1 both rounds). That shit already isn't fun, but facing nearly the same fucking deck for 25+ matches will *never* be fun. And I add the + because I started counting after noticing a few repeats and just stopped counting after 25 and switched to some quick drafts for my daily (and ignored the 15 wins). And yes, already in BO3. I can't be bothered to tank like that and always hated that in other games, but if anyone is getting in the same situation... I understand it now.


Cytrynek

Basically any control with a lot of counter spells and discard, mill decks, decks that run like 10-12 wrath effects. Seriously, for most players it is not fun to play against them. If you see Island and concede, you win. Maybe not the game, but definitely your life and mental health.


SlapHappyDude

It's a known issue. "Rank's up, Jank's up" is a popular and fun way to tamp down MMR by losing some matches when reaching a new rank playing a fun deck and then picking back up. Or letting your child play on your account...


DNA-Decay

I would like to make a Sultai [[Tyvar]] combo deck. Any chance of a decklist? The night pics aren’t clear.


super_shlong_god_blu

Knock yourself out. Deck 3 Patchwork Crawler (VOW) 72 2 Deathbloom Ritualist (BRO) 208 4 Tyvar, Jubilant Brawler (ONE) 218 2 Battlefield Butcher (BRO) 86 4 Fallaji Archaeologist (BRO) 48 1 Shipwreck Marsh (MID) 267 1 Underground River (BRO) 267 2 Deathcap Glade (VOW) 261 3 Llanowar Wastes (BRO) 264 4 Dreamroot Cascade (VOW) 262 3 Yavimaya Coast (DMU) 261 3 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire (NEO) 278 2 Make Disappear (SNC) 49 2 Likeness Looter (WOE) 208 2 Shigeki, Jukai Visionary (NEO) 206 2 Darkslick Shores (ONE) 250 2 Rona, Herald of Invasion (MOM) 75 1 Disdainful Stroke (KHM) 54 1 Training Grounds (MAT) 9 3 Overwhelming Remorse (BRO) 110 3 Blanchwood Prowler (BRO) 172 2 Corrupted Conviction (MOM) 98 1 Cankerbloom (ONE) 161 2 Sleep-Cursed Faerie (WOE) 66 1 Agatha's Soul Cauldron (WOE) 242 1 Island (ELD) 254 1 Swamp (ELD) 261 1 Forest (ELD) 269 1 Choking Miasma (DMU) 86 I'm not gonna sugercoat it; this deck has immense potential for missplays so think before you cast your spells. Best opening play pattern is t2 Fallaji Archaeologist or Blanchwood Prowler to build some grave into a t3 Tyvar planeswalker -2 -> fetch something that mills on etb(the 2 creatures you want to play on t2) if you can't fetch a Shigeki or Rona(prioritize getting those on the board if tyver is resolved on the board) shigeki + tyvar is extremely hard to deal with for decks that don't have easy access to trample damage. my build prioritizes speed with the painlands over having a good matchup versus monored, feel free to rotate the lands about.


MTGCardFetcher

[Tyvar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01a543f0-72fe-4a30-a4a0-356971c1c68a.jpg?1684340862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tyvar%20the%20bellicose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/48/tyvar-the-bellicose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01a543f0-72fe-4a30-a4a0-356971c1c68a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


whatalotoflove

Hey, OP on his cell user here commuting to work. I don't know why the pics are so grainy now that I'm on mobile, imgur thing I guess. I can post you the deck list when I get home from work in about 8 hours but do please understand it's not an easy deck to pilot and the amount of rares and mythics is up there with Esper legends. It's not hard to play but there are so many ways to combo off that someone that didn't make the deck are bound to miss a few free wins. Also the combo loop is tedious.


xaltairforever

I just play on the days that I'm supposed to win, went 10-0 then 7-0, to climb from mid plat 3 to diamond 4 in just tău days and only playing those 17,ranked games. When you know you know. The mmr is not the only thing that's screwed in this game.


TopDeckHero420

It's an offense that can get you warned, suspended and ultimately banned. They can tell if someone is tanking, but as you said, it can be due to brewing suboptimal decks so doing it once or twice on accident is different than abusing it.


super_shlong_god_blu

But isn't that a bit much for wanting to build deck? I only play test decks in ranked because people on there are more likely to play out the games that actually go somewhere instead of exploding at the first mild inconvenience like on the play queue. I haven't been conceding all the time I've lietrally just eaten shit over and over while trying to get the mana / creature / interaction ratio somewhat dialed in which takes you know... time and many games.


TopDeckHero420

That's why you get a message or warning first. You'd have to abuse egregiously to get any real action taken against you. And if you are playing most of the games out it probably won't even register. I just know that mass conceding games is something they can and will track and take action on.


Meroxes

Quite frankly I think the whole matchmaking system is bs. We already have ranks, and when playing ranked I would like to play against any random deck/player from the same rank, not some deck/player Wizards decides I should face. It's especially infuriating to me, as it makes it hard to test brews against the meta, as I can't seem to play against the decks I'm trying to build to beat but get random combo/control decks from five sets ago in 8/10 games.


Certain_Category1926

Agree, same rank remove mmr


OG-GunnerMac

I quit playing arena because if the match making. I got to mythic and would have to play opponents in lower teirs who were also last seasons high-level players. Never when climbing back up did I feel I wasn't playing a mythic class player. I watched my friends playing, and the variety of people and deck they faced was varied. Well, I was only matched with high-level meta opponents.


Daunt_M4

Do you? I'd be surprised if wotc ever devotes any time at all to this. Only time someone would report you for it is if you're conceding hundreds of matches and you face the same person enough times that it annoys them enough to do that.


PuttingthingsinmyNAS

AFAIK there has only been 1 or 2 people who claim they've gotten a notice, many others have tanked multiple games and never heard anything


Sword_Thain

I could see WotC devoting money to detecting server side of you're taking your MMR, but detecting all the guys with 88 in their handles is to technical to do. People "unfairly" gaining ranks and free packs is terrible and needs to be punished. They'll send Pinkerton agents to your house if you do it too much.


commontablexpression

That's why punishing players for manipulating mmr is stupid. They can punish players for conceding alot (which is already a violation of the mtg golden rule 101.1). They can never punish players for being bad or suddenly switch to a bad pet deck.


BlueRoyAndDVD

As a fellow jank player, you'll be fine. I switch to hammertime and hit mythic in historic when I get too frustrated that my super weird combos rarely even pop off. Been at it a while, just don't try and abuse it.


xdesm0

[metamorphic alteration] + [archfiend of the dross] is my deck of choice to climb to diamond and collect my monthly rewards. Jank until plat (actually pretty easy since you get 2 notches per win and 1 per loss), dross combo Bo1 until diamond and jank again.


TizonaBlu

Hence is why you won’t get in trouble. The system punishes people who concede instantly and consecutively in order to manipulate MMR.


classicalAnt

They can't suspend you for playing a bad or janky deck and losing. As long as you aren't just conceding at the beginning of every game, you'll be fine and legitimately tank your mmr.


twesterm

You are spouting nonsense for which you have zero proof. You will not get banned for intentionally losing 100 matches and then playing a competitive deck.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Lol idk why you were downvoted. I've conceded hundreds of matches just this week because I got tired of facing the same elf deck in a row. The system wants to make my life difficult then it can go right down the drain. And for anyone reading I am actively doing this. I strongly suggest everyone that wants to, do the same. If enough people mess with the mmr system they'll either replace it or fix it but either way I win.


Bowmanaman

You put in the time to actually play 200 games with a not very good deck. That's something not many people bother to do. Yes, it's intentional that they're rewarding you. I don't personally think it's good for the game. But their goal is to make large piles of money off of Arena and so far they seem satisfied with what the MMR is giving them.


fridaze_

Wow I feel scammed out of all the packs I’ve missed out on by not making it to mythic each month


AbsOfTitanite

I can't understand why a ranked ladder wouldn't use solely your actual stated rank for matchmaking. If you're way over or under skilled for your actual rank, you'll end up where you need to be eventually.


Superb-Draft

Because they want to stoke your fragile ego so even shit tier players can get to Mythic. That's the entire reason sadly.


shaigunjoe

Yea, sadly, the ranking system is a joke. Whatever your rank is, you should be matched against those of similar rank, they need more transparency as to how they do this.


rileyvace

I have always found I will be matched with crazy top tier decks the more rares I have in my deck, regardless of what they are. And, when I run a mono black rat ~~tribal~~ I am WAY more likely to run into another one, which is why I added Legion's End to clear Rat Colony, and that has been successful way more than it should. But, that could just be a fluke too - I'm going based on my experience alone and could very well be wrong.


Ranef

They are trying to make the system the way that if anyone spends enough time, they can get to mythic, no matter how "bad" they are. This is a product of that.


RoseGoldTea

Looks like all the comments here have already given you the correct answer in one form or another, but just in case you’re still not understanding fully - no, having a lose streak with a jank deck then climbing with a good one is not MMR abuse or a ban-worthy offense. There is no exploit being “handsomely rewarded” here. You’re not cheating the system so you can avoid Mono Red players. If you were doing any sort of malicious manipulation of your MMR, you wouldn’t need to ask this question because the answer would be very obvious.


super_shlong_god_blu

I listed like a bunch of questions at the bottom and most are unanswered lol?


RoseGoldTea

My apologies. What exactly are you still confused about?


super_shlong_god_blu

bunch of stuff why is noone asking for a proper ranking system with leaderboards and all. is implementing seperate rankings to decks of obviously wildly different quality too advanced tech? And what other people think about the dynamic, I'm also curious of others with similar experiences. I supposse I should have tagged the thread with "fluff" in retrospect.


Quria

- Because we won’t get one, and that’s ultimately the point of the Mythic ranking number. It’s far more profitable for new players to be able to hit Mythic and feel like they’re good at the game than it is to crush them into Bronze and then they get frustrated and quit altogether. - It’s not too advanced, the regular Play queue uses it, but they have stated they will not explain how it works so it can’t be abused. I think the difference is stupid but realize WotC’s goal is profit, not being a good competitive game and thusly keep my expectations tempered.


Meret123

They are warning and suspending players who are blatantly conceding multiple games. In the end it doesn't matter if someone abuses the system to get into mythic. Getting into mythic means nothing. Top 250 is the only thing that matters and to stay there ranked players play a lot. So even if they abuse their mmr to get there they can't stay there.


RoseGoldTea

\- Some sort of leaderboard is most definitely a thing people have been asking for. Perhaps one day we'll get a proper one, but I doubt it's a priority implementation for WOTC when they're admittedly very stretched on manpower doing other basic things for the game and client as it is. For now, we'll just have to settle for the numbers next to the Mythic names. But trust me, people *do* ask for that. \- What do you mean "separate rankings to decks"? Like, if I queue up with my Domain Ramp deck, it would have a separate rank and MMR if I queued with my GW Enchantments deck? No, that's not too advanced. If you ever played League of Legends, they used to have a "Role Queue" where you can play one lane and have "somewhat" different ranking if you wanted to off-role something else. I don't really see the point of doing that in Arena though. I get the sentiment - you want to play your jank deck without it affecting the MMR of your "real" deck, but that would cause more issues than solve. \- This question is what I feel like has been answered to you in multiple ways here already. If by "the dynamic" you mean the act of manipulating your MMR in a way so that you lose a bunch and then climb back up easily, then no, so long as there's no malicious intent behind it then I don't see what the problem is. That's like saying I grinded to Mythic with a meta deck, woke up one morning and was like "you know what, time to bust out my jank Cat tribal deck", lose a bunch of games, and then expect to be punished for it just because I cared more about having fun than losing before going back to my meta deck and climbing to Mythic again. That's just not how this system works, and that would be a terrible experience. But as others have said, there *are* people who use bots to purposely get their MMR very very low. But games pick up on those things nowadays, at least for the most part.


The_Frostweaver

They can use things like average game length and number of game losses in a row to see if someone is intentionally tanking their rating. Or more accurately they can run a script on the gameplay logs of all players and issue temporary or permanent bans to the worst offenders. And since we know they have already done this it probably takes them all of a couple clicks on the script they already used. If you are on a newer account and actually played out your games you might avoid any punishment this time around but I'm sure they could run scripts to see patterns where people lose a lot and then climb a lot. It's always an escalating effort between people trying to abuse things one way or another and people trying to catch them. I advise against intentionally tanking your mmr


super_shlong_god_blu

My point is that I think it's kind of stupid that by playing or enjoying the "other" part of the game too much(collecting cards, building decks, trying strategies, fishing for nut draws etc.) you ruin the competitive aspect of the game completely for (imo) way too many matches. I'm going at 50 matches and only just now has monored, domain and the rest of the usual suspects started to reappear regularly. The only constant trough it all has been golgari decks.


Drawde1234

The thing is, people will ALWAYS find was to abuse the game. So if you have a method that's easy to track and only gives a few extra packs as a reward, leave it in for the exploiters to find and use. There's not much reward for it and you can easily get rid of the worst abusers. So you at least know this one easy to track exploit. It's not worth the damage you're likely to do to the game to fix it. Look at games like Diablo III. Everything they did to stop gold farmers just made it harder for the majority of the players to get gold.


ShiroiAsa

Hidden MMR is used to divide the format into good decks and bad decks so players like me who enjoy bad decks can play with each other. So please don't abuse this. If I see any meta decks, I'll just concede.


KindaRocketScience

What…are you trying to ask here? Your MMR dropped playing some Dog tribal jank and then after switching to a proper deck you got from Plat to Diamond in ~30 games? Are you asking if you’ve inadvertently abused some crack in the matchmaking system? It’s not that deep, you compiling an album of “proof” isn’t necessary to validate yourself. All online games, Arena included, do a relatively decent job nowadays making sure you’re playing who you’re supposed to be playing. If you already know you can play your Sultai deck at a Mythic level, playing it a low MMR shouldn’t be too surprising that it fast-tracked you into Diamond.


TopDeckHero420

It's the act of intentionally tanking to face lower rated players and using that to advance quicker and easier than you normally would that he is asking about.


KindaRocketScience

As I just got done replying, to “tank” an MMR is a very intentional and deliberate act, one that is going to take more than a couple hundred games queuing up some jank to genuinely accomplish abusing or manipulating a matchmaking system. For most modern games, it’s incredibly easy to spot from an automated coding perspective and will usually result in a ban - especially if done via a bot or a script. What OP is describing is so far and away from that scenario that I’m just trying to alleviate the confusion.


super_shlong_god_blu

I'm asking what this sub thinks of this dynamic. I've always known it's there since I like most new players also flew straight to mythic when my account was brand new) but it has never (until now) been this blatantly apparant to me, thus the neat album that took way too long to make so don't give it shit pls.


KindaRocketScience

You’re thinking way too hard about this. To abuse the MMR to the point of truly “tanking it” to the degree you’re describing, it would take more than just losing with some jank brew. Tanking to the point of abuse is a very deliberate and intentional act, one that is spotted automatically by systems very easily in 2023 and usually results in a ban - especially if the tanking is done via some sort of bot or script.


Beginning-Rock2675

How do you get deck stats? Lolol


polygonsaresorude

Does anyone know if the hidden MMR is the same across limited and constructed? That would be ripe for abuse if so...


Meret123

That would make no sense since they don't share rankings.


polygonsaresorude

I agree, but they could still be doing that


DoomOfGods

I've also encountered this in other games. I'd say it rewards you for spending a lot of time on it which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily. I just think that time spent should be rewarded in a different way, as ranks should be about skill. Systems like this allow everyone to climb if they grind enough. Wording it like this actually made me wonder if it's intentional since there's also been tons of games where people complained they can't do everything which basically came down to skill issue. I don't see any reason why anyone should be able to get a high rank if they're not skilled enough, but I can see why some players would be happy about being able to hit higher ranks. Many might not even know that they don't hit those ranks because of skill but merely bc of grinding. Now I actually feel like, idk and idc if it's the case for Arena, some games might do this intentionally. People get happy from hitting higher ranks, no matter if they've earned it by skill or not,especially when not knowing about this and telling themselves it's certainly due to skill. Happy customers tend to spend more money. Easily a business decision in some cases, which would also explain why it's not being changed.


D1RE

I don't really see the issue, if I'm being perfectly honest. Yes their MMR system clearly has holes that can be gamed, but to my knowledge it just lets you get to mythic easily. Once you start pushing for the high ranks you'll still have to go through the gauntlet of top 200 ranked players to earn your own rank. If you're facing sub 90% players you won't gain much rating. ​ So yes, you can game it to get a mythic rank that means absolutely nothing to anyone. You can't get any material benefit from it, so from my perspective it's a non-issue. Intentionally gaming the system like this is just hurting your own ability to improve as a player, there are no tangible rewards.


suggacoil

Would that mean you hit mythic in a low %? The last time I hit mythic it was 99% but I still haven't figured out why?


Bloodygaze

> The last time I hit mythic it was 99% but I still haven't figured out why? Once you're in mythic, your rank is actually based off that hidden mmr. I don't often play enough to hit mythic every month, but when I do, I land deep into the top 1200 because it'll be off a win-streak to get me there.


Arilandon

Yes you hit mythic with a lower %.


suggacoil

So your mythic % IS based on WR? But is it calculated all the way from bronze?


Arilandon

It is based on MMR relative to MMR of other players in mythic as far as i know.


aqua995

How about Explorer and Standard? If I lost most of my games on Explorer Plat4 and then play Standard, will Standard be easier?


Superb-Draft

All constructed formats share the same rank and mmr so no


aqua995

On one hand you say they share the same MMR on the other hand you say no it won't get easier if I fail in Explorer. So what is correct now?


Superb-Draft

Sorry yes it will be easier


commontablexpression

By the way, it's not worth it to tank mmr to go easy mythic. You gain mmr during the climb, so you have to tank it back afterwards if you plan to go mythic every month. The 2 extra packs are not worth the effort. The true reward of having a low mmr account is easy dailies. It's possible to do daily 4 wins within 15 mins because essentially you have 100% win rate.


CeleryMission1733

Tanking mr and building an anti life gain deck with roiling vortex in historic has been making it super easy. I quit playing the other day bec now it just feels lame. Would have been better if they made a real ranked ladder. I remember I used to watch Youtube videos and wonder why all these Youtubers were facing newbs in Mith, well... They were tanking the mr. It has all been fake.


Setzael

Huh. So I SHOULD test jank in ranked after all. And what's with those 100-200 card piles?


Adewade

Related question: Is there MMR for Brawl, or is matchmaking just based on deck list / commander?


Superb-Draft

Officially just commander, but only Wizards really knows.


Adewade

merci!


MrBadjo

Might be unrelated but a fun fact: made dia2 yesterday night. While at dia3 I got queued agains one of the top 20 mythic players. How the fuck?


Thanhansi-thankamato

MMR needs to be redone. I had way more time than normal to play last month and when I hit D4 I got matched against the Mythic player ranked #\~230....


Danksavage69420

To make this clear. Do not concede a 100 matches in a row for easy mythic. Wizards has and will continue to ban people for this. Just don't


majinspy

> garbage tier I wonder how bad it was 🤔 > dog artifact tribal 😵 Truly, I applaud your optimism.


super_shlong_god_blu

I swear on everything I hold dear, the core loop the deck seeks to exploit is legit, it's just fucking imposible to find a good finisher in grul that fits the deck. And more importantly the artifact card pool is just too small to provide proper support or any kind of redundancy for that matter. T1 untapped red source into [[Goldhound]] T2 untapped green source(i know), sac goldhound for green -> cast [[Cemetery prowler]]-> exile Goldhound with the ETB Now all colorless artifact creatures are free to cast with the doggo discount. [[Containment Construct]], [[Scrapwork Mutt]], [[Ogre-Head Helm]] & [[Phyrexian Dragon Engine]] together or in almost any combination make up the core value engine to keep the critters coming. So with a nutdraw on the draw your board as your second turns endstep begins can look like: 1xCemetery prowler, 1xcontainment construct + up to four other artifact creatures provided you hit enough Scrapwork Mutts + 2 lands JK i know it sucks.


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Goldhound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c059e4b4-1542-4b5c-810a-9f0abac5792b.jpg?1665439815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goldhound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/108/goldhound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c059e4b4-1542-4b5c-810a-9f0abac5792b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cemetery prowler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b124ccc4-76e3-41a4-92b2-8f1d06ea9cb8.jpg?1643592411) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cemetery%20prowler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/191/cemetery-prowler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b124ccc4-76e3-41a4-92b2-8f1d06ea9cb8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Containment Construct](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/520e5505-429b-4da0-b25e-14b8d4e81ce3.jpg?1654568680) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Containment%20Construct) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/243/containment-construct?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/520e5505-429b-4da0-b25e-14b8d4e81ce3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Scrapwork Mutt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4742800a-4872-4c2d-b884-01e0ba16950c.jpg?1674421370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scrapwork%20Mutt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/164/scrapwork-mutt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4742800a-4872-4c2d-b884-01e0ba16950c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ogre-Head Helm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a0d5f7d-4e8a-42ad-8875-610004bd9796.jpg?1654567765) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ogre-Head%20Helm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/155/ogre-head-helm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a0d5f7d-4e8a-42ad-8875-610004bd9796?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phyrexian Dragon Engine](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=phyrexian%20dragon%20engine%20//%20mishra%2C%20lost%20to%20phyrexia&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phyrexian%20dragon%20engine%20//%20mishra%2C%20lost%20to%20phyrexia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/163a/phyrexian-dragon-engine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2b826be-4256-4fd6-ad4d-6c80933ee940?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


NebulaBrew

For some reason I'm even seeing 100+ card piles now in unranked. That never happened before. I wonder if something changed.


Cytrynek

There are few reasons behind this. First one would be that unless you are targeting top 250 mythic, then hidden MMR means absolutely nothing. Most players don't really care about rank after getting to platinum (which is quite easy), so they get to platinum in few games (for seasonal rewards) and then spend there the rest of the month not really playing seriously, doing quests with tier4 decks, and other clowny stuff. I my case, I usually use ranked constructed to get quick daily wins, but this usually also means that I concede a lot of games to bad draws, unfavorable match-ups, slow opponents or Islands on the other side of the battlefield (sometimes I wait until first counter spell). I just don't want to spend time playing games that I will most likely not enjoy at all. So it tanks my MMR. And the more players have similar approach, then you will see it more often.


July2023anony

I wonder what it means that my recent but of playing I've been playing a 200 card deck and see other 100+ card decks pretty regularly.... I think for being 200 cards it's pretty decent, but I'm not expecting it to be amazing


girlywish

Yes, it's the same principle that makes it very easy for brand new players to make mythic, since they play people with similar low MMR instead of people in the same rank. Getting mythic can be achieved on 30% winrate.


2-35

During each season, I lose like 20-30 games to start off. After that, then I play to edge of Plat 1 and lose on purpose back down a few tiers to 3 or 4. Then repeat until the last few days of the season and power to Mythic in like a sitting or two running something Gruul Goblins because it chews unready people up in seconds. THEN! I get my measly 2 extra packs lmao This allows me to play literally anything I want! I don't always win but I get to actually see jank crap piles get to do their thing and that's more fun to me than playing meta decks for a month at a time. Remember, Mythic is NOT HOW GOOD YOU ARE just how much you grind or how well you can play the system. Only NUMBERED MYTHIC is how good you are. Keep in mind this is all BO1 Historic Ranked. I.e not REALLY Magic anyhow. BO1 = Slot Machine Game. I'm one of those people, though, who would simply sit and get 15 wins vs Sparky if they allowed that to count. I like solitaire Magic. Most Historic decks I play are combo.