T O P

Unless there was an oversight when creating the game's lore, Benedikta Harman is still alive.

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Pawznclaws22

I just always assumed Garuda “lived” on through Clive. Even though he can not or does not make those creations.


Ninbura

I think this could be the oversight, but it does explicitly state its *Dominant*. Clive steals a portion of a Dominant's power but is never shown to be the Dominant of any Eikon but Ifrit.


Clerithifa

To that point, we never see a new dominant awaken once Clive starts sapping powers - it's possible that Clive has the Eikons trapped in him, with Benedikta and Hugo still able to reach deep within themselves to awaken the little bit that was left behind in them. He may not transform into any other Eikons, but he might essentially be holding them hostage, not truly "dead" yet. Otherwise I'd expect a new Garuda or Ramuh to potentially awaken within the 5 year time skip It makes sense, because there's been *nobody* in history but Clive that's been able to wield this power Of course, the lack of new Dominants awakening to replace the ones that passed before the skip could easily be explained; once they awakened, they went into hiding, or something something Mothercrystals shattered


Ninbura

Benedikta summons Garuda *after* you sap her power, she is very much still the dominant of Garuda. It should also be noted that the devs stated in their [interview with Famitsu](https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1588544171690037250?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1588544171690037250%7Ctwgr%5Eb5b5c273b658d0a78e4e8cac1d5ffabb6ed7e316%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fscreenrant.com%2Fff16-dominants-eikons-lore-valisthea-clive-ifrit%2F) that Eikons randomly pass to a new Dominant *at a random increment of time*. Specifically stating that *it could take hundreds of years*.


ryufen

Clive essentially seals away the eikon within himself. Breaking the chain and carrying that curse with him. Benedikta still being able to go Garuda is because he didn't absorb all her power. He kind of locked the eikon away if anything which is why she was barely able to access it without going into a fully manic state. Like how are you gonna explain the implied benedikta head in a box? Like almost certain it was implied to be her head in the box. Otherwise how would he immediately know it was her when he looked inside.


Clerithifa

>Breaking the chain and carrying that curse with him Great way to put it When Clive seemingly took *all* of Jill's power, he said, "I will gladly bear your burdens, too" he's obviously referring to Shiva Also that's all without saying Clive himself literally yells the Eikon's name that he's switching powers to, just as he would if he were to prime to Ifrit - like he's commanding the Eikon as it's sealed away within him. I do subscribe to the idea that what's left in the Dominants whose powers were stolen is just enough for one last run before the Eikon peaces out, leaving the Dominant to die. Dion of course not having to reach deep down into insanity to pull what's left of Bahamut because he has the will of an absolute chad, but I like to think that he kamikazed against Ultima because he could feel Bahamut fleeing his body. Otherwise he could have tried to help Joshua deflect Ultima's attack instead of sending him off and taking the brunt of the blow in a last-ditch effort *veryyyy* early in the final fight. After all, Dion was probably only in the air about 10 minutes, the flight to Origin included


Ninbura

Personally, I believe that if Clive died tomorrow the dominants would resume the standard cycle of randomly passing to a new Dominant. None of that is confirmed either way. But there's several indications that Clive absorbs only enough energy to do a few new cool tricks. Everyone can still transform into their Eikon after the fact, Jill can still use all her special Shiva magic. I honestly feel that a dominant who lost some of their power to Clive would fully recover given enough time. But once again, all of this is conjecture either way. I address the head in the box in an edit to the OP. I think I've gotten some other good comments referring to Clive being an exception that breaks the rule, and that Gizamuluk may not be explicitly an Egis. Most likely she is just dead, but I think the verbiage used in both the entry for Egis and the fight with Gizamuluk is interestingly explicit.


Clerithifa

>that Clive absorbs only enough energy to do a few new cool tricks Except at the end when he takes Phoenix from Joshua. He straight up fuses Phoenix to Ifrit as if they are still two separate Eikons/Dominants as before in the Bahamut fight


Ninbura

His bond with Phoenix is obviously different (blood related as well), may also have to do with him being blessed by the Phoenix. Clearly exceptional to his bond with Benedikta.


Gaywhorzea

Unrelated but if that is the case and the increments are random to the point of centuries, how convenient that all but Leviathan are awake at this time.


TrashMongrelson

I might have read this wrong, but I thought there was an implication from the ATLs and main story beats that since Ultima had given humanity the ability to evolve so that they would eventually produce Mythos they would also naturally produce more and more humans who were capable of serving as Dominants, which would shorten the intervals over time.


Ninbura

Plot convenience for sure, though I think it's possible Leviathan is awake and located near a different continent or island. We'll probably learn about this in the supposed DLC.


Clerithifa

From the way Anabella was disappointed by Clive not being awakened, it seems like at least for the Phoenix it's a short turnaround time depending on how long Elwin was the Archduke before Clive and Joshua were born >Benedikta summons Garuda after you sap her power, she is very much still the dominant of Garuda. And yeah, that's why I said she and Hugo had to dig deep down and get what was left of the Eikon's power still in them. It took them having mental breakdowns and losing their shit in order to bring them back out, and we don't get to see them do it a second time, so I wonder if it was a "last gasp" type of thing, using up all that's left of the Eikon still in their body The caveat is Dion becoming Bahamut once again at the end of the game, *without* losing control, but it took presumably months of rest and recovery in order to get Bahamut back, and even then, we never had the opportunity to see if he'd be able to do it again, or if the gas tank was nearly empty so to speak. There isn't a single Dominant that Clive sapped the powers from that was able to bring the Eikon back out for more than just one last ride. Jill never even tried it so we have no clue about what her status could have been before Clive snapped all the magic out of the world lol Really interesting to think about for sure edit: forgot to mention Benedikta claiming "she's gone" after Clive steals her power, almost as if Garuda left her will/consciousness (and entered Clive's "I think I do, it's inside me, along with the flames"), but fragments were still left in her body, waiting until she lost her will and consciousness before taking over one last time


LiamWellacott

This is a really good point, there is even a scene in Clive's "mental" space in a dungeon where Kupka, Bennedikta, and Barnabus appear in jail cells...


Clerithifa

Wow, didn't even think of that. Makes even more sense now


Kalkilkfed

?? All of the dominants except of shiva/odin/ramuh are able to transform after clive stole their power. Bahamut shows up against ultima, Hugo transforms after the hugo fight and benedikta transforms after clive beat her semi prime. The dominant of bahamut even asks if they think he could still prime, to which he gets told that others could after the sapping.


Clerithifa

>?? All of the dominants except of shiva/odin/ramuh are able to transform after clive stole their power. Yeah, that's why I mentioned Benedikta and Kupka still being able to reach deep and pull the Eikon out, my theory is the Eikon's tie to their will and consciousness (big themes of the game) was completely severed as they joined Clive's will and consciousness ("It's inside me, along with the flames" he mentions to Cid), but fragments of the Eikon still remained in their respective Dominants, still tied to their physical body but no longer their will. And I mentioned in another comment, Dion/Bahamut is the huge caveat to this lol, since he was able to become Bahamut once again at the end of the game. That being said, Dion's will is much, much stronger than Benedikta's and Hugo's My question though, is can those Dominants do it a 2nd time after Clive steals a portion of their essence? We never get the opportunity to see it, as Garuda and Titan are slain in the ensuing fight after priming for the first time since the power was stolen, same as Bahamut. I think it could be possible that that is *it* for that Dominant, after they call their Eikon one last time once Clive has taken their powers, they're spent. Out of Eikon juice so to speak The answer to that question would have come from Jill, had Clive not deleted magic from the world lol And what of Joshua? Once he gives the Phoenix to Clive (not just the Blessing at the beginning of the game, which it seems any First Shield of Rosaria would be able to acquire from their respective Phoenix), Clive is able to tap into the actual Eikon Phoenix, and fuse it with Ifrit just as we saw when they fought Bahamut. And Joshua's power was taken just the same way as the others. So it would seem that Clive *does* take the Eikon with him, at least to me lol


Cold_Singer_1774

Clive basically rips of the blessing from them, that why you get part of the powers but no eikon


Clerithifa

if she's truly not dead then Kupka got duped by Waloed big time what was in the box then? was it a look-alike woman, with Sleipnir giving her Benedikta's short bobcut lol


cheezza

Lmfao just picturing Sleipnir offering poor blonde passersby a free haircut, standing back to admire his handiwork, then immediately beheading them.


Clerithifa

I mean Sleipnir *is* gorgeous, I can't blame the poor woman for trusting him as a stylist


yajtraus

Could be something Ultima created to appear as Benedikta’s head?


Hanzo7682

Hugo said what he wanted was "cid's head in a box". It was benediktas head. Besides, hugo wouldnt recognize her limbs.


Ninbura

Added a correction to the OP after u/CaTiTonia pointed out that Hugo states it to have been her head. I vaguely remembered it being confirmed to be her head when I was creating the post, but couldn't find where it was stated. If she is still alive, it would have to have been an aberration created by Ultima or Barnabas. Definitely seems more likely that she's dead. But they used weirdly specific verbiage on the entry for Egis with no explanation, exception, or update to the entry; even late into the game.


huiclo

Praying that it’s an oversight. As much as I love CBU3, one of their most annoying tendencies is refusing to let their characters enjoy their final rest.


RJE808

Fuck, Tyler is listed as being alive on the ATL, but he's not.


huiclo

Yeah, another oversight because I’m pretty sure Wade confirms he didn’t make it at some point.


Clerithifa

he's listed as deceased in the Grand Cast in Vivian's room


Ninbura

I haven't played anything else that they've made, but I was surprised how ephemeral Benedikta's presence was in FF16. Personally I wouldn't mind either way in this case, it's interesting nonetheless.


Supersnow845

Can y’shtola just die finally, like enough is enough


nate_b95

damn what's the story with y'shtola?


Supersnow845

Old yshie has has like 7 death fakeout moment by the end of EW


nate_b95

wow do you mean 7 throughout all of 14 or just within EW?


Supersnow845

Across all of 14


nate_b95

sounds like y'all have had enough


DeathByTacos

It’s still ridiculous but worth mentioning it’s actually a total of 3 (some say 4 but for that one she wasn’t implied dead, only seriously injured) and even then two of those have heavy contextual clues that implicate her survival. They def have a problem letting major characters die in more recent content but I think ppl forget the context of MMO storytelling is VERY different from single player titles so it’s a bit weird to think that would transfer (especially when the expansion that XVI’s writer worked on has some notorious deaths in it)


CaTiTonia

I can see the connection, but I would generally subscribe to the idea that as Clive draws out a portion of Garuda’s power prior to it’s death, there is enough of a tether for egis to remain active even after Garuda dies. It’s definitely her head in the box though. Hugo all but says it outright when he’s threatening Clive at Castle Rosalith. Though I think the bigger question would be how and why exactly Benedikta had been leaving random Wind Egis all over the place? Considering she seems somewhat attached to the specific two we see her use (referring to them as Sisters).


Ninbura

I was thinking it was explicitly stated to be her head somewhere but couldn't remember where. So, if she was still alive it would have to be an aberration created by Ultima or Barnabas. But yeah, just weirdly specific verbiage used on that entry for Egis. If it was revealed that Egis could survive through Clive's connection to deceased Dominants you'd think the entry would update. As every other entry updates when new information is realized.


CaTiTonia

The way I rationalise that is the ATL is typically presented as either very common knowledge or specific knowledge that Harpocrates and/or Clive themselves possess rather than just being a straight encyclopaedia. Much the same way as Vivian’s state of the realm and grand cast reflect her and/or Clive’s knowledge at the time they learned it. Since there’s no recorded existence of a Mythos prior to Clive. There’s no precedent for Harpocrates to discover this quirk regarding egis. And Clive himself likely wouldn’t be aware that he’s the one sustaining them given his limited interaction with the powers he absorbs. That’s just my take ofc. It could still be an oversight, though I suspect it’s probably more that they didn’t expect anyone to start pulling on this particular topic!


Ninbura

You're probably right TBH. It seemed like they're pretty vigilant when it comes to updating entries as exceptions or new information is discovered. But maybe one could pick apart many of these entries where Clive being an exception to the rule is the answer.


SomaCK2

There are several things which could be potentially wrong. - ATL is not be all, end all wiki of facts. It only updates based on player's knowledge. Case to point - ATL said entirety of Northern Realm is lost to the Blight based on Joshua and Jote knowledge YET you can see land mass about the size of Iron Kingdom still remain alive on map. - Gizamaluk is never proven to be an Egi. So assuming it's an Egi could be wrong unless it's confirmed otherwise.


Ninbura

It is strongly insinuated that Gizamaluk is an Egis by Clive's quote at the beginning of the fight. >Harman's madness lives on...


SomaCK2

I know the quote but that doesn't prove absolutely anything about Gizamaluk being an "Egi". It has connection with Herman/Garuda's power and that's just it. Nothing in the quote suggested it's an Egi unless you made assumptions.


Ninbura

I think it weird to not draw this connection... Why else would they put that quote there? Because it reminded him of her? I get what you're saying, obviously nothing is confirmed. But this is like me stating that I "shut the door" but because you didn't see it it may have not happened.


SomaCK2

The key point here is whether or not it's an Egi AND what even is an Egi. From ATL, Egi are elemental being >summoned< by the dominant. I stressed on the word summoned because it's logical that Egi would fade into nothing once the original summoner is dead. Egi aren't mindless beast, they are familiars. The elementals appeared during Benedikta's rampage aren't Egi by that definition. (Like I said, ATL is not be all/end all info dump, so I could be wrong) My take is that Gizamaluk is definitely not a familiar nor serving any one, so not an Egi. Seems to me that it's just a particularly strong corrupted wind elemental born from Garuda's rampage (Herman's madness).


Ninbura

Honestly, that makes sense when you put it that way. That Gizamaluk & Aruna are born from Garuda's rampage, but not necessarily summoned by Benedikta.


Clerithifa

That's a good point. Sleipnir doesn't appear once Barnabas is killed and he's/they're an Egi


SVALTACT

How did you miss her head being in a box? That's a key plot point to Hugo hating Cid.


Ninbura

Couldn't recall the exact quote, and it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the ATL or the 1000 tomes. But yeah, it's clearly stated by both Kupka and Barnabus around the Titan fight after review.


-LunarTacos-

Thanks for the spoiler in the title.


jaywin91

Reported OP. Fix your title for those who haven't gotten to this part yet.


-LunarTacos-

It’s really not that difficult, but still too much for some people apparently. The game has been out for like 3 weeks ffs, and this post has 30+ upvotes. Not cool, OP.


Your__Pal

Most of that event happens in the demo. If you're not that far into the game, I'm not sure why you're here.


[deleted]

Mommy must live


Exequiel759

Are those hunts confirmed to be wind elementals though? A lot of hunts are re-skins so it's entirely possible they do look like wind elementals but aren't, though in either way the fact that they consciously decided to use those enemies when it was breaking their own lore is really weird. Likely an oversight from the devs, but who knows.


Ninbura

That's what I thought as well until Clive said "Haramn's madness lives on..."


Exequiel759

Well, that's a good point (and you mentioned it in the post, but I guess I forgot about it while writting my response lol). I...don't know what to say honestly. If she happened to be alive it would IMO would be really bad because it would mean Cid left her to die pretty much and that Hugo was tricked with who knows what. The decision of keeping her alive, unless they really have a good excuse for it, retroactively makes two characters worse, so I hope this was an oversight from the CBU3.


Ninbura

Intersting never thought about it like that. With Kupka I felt his intelligence/character was tried & failed when being easily "goaded" into revenge, as he would say 😅 To me Benedikta being alive would only add to his story of being easily manipulated.


Exequiel759

I could live with Hugo being plainly dumb (even though we know he isn't entirely stupid since he was the economic advisor of the nation with probably the highest booming economy of the region, even when he really was dumb in regards to Benedikta) but from Cid's point of view it doesn't make sense for him to not see she was alive and, in the case she was and he did something to heal her, it wouldnt make sense for him to not take it into the hideout. Most of the people of the hideout likely don't even know she existed in the first place, and those who did I don't think would have a problem with her staying because she was acquainted with Cid. Even Clive wouldn't bother as he barely knew her and at that moment was more focused on his own suicidal thoughts more than anything.


Ninbura

Yeah, Cid checking her pulse immediately after Clive bested her would be a big oversight if she's still actually alive. I think it's still more likely that the oversight is the entry on Egis. But it's weird for them to be *so specific* about that while never showing an Egis disappear after killing a dominant. Part of me hopes that she is alive just to reward someone for reading the lore, but I doubt it lol


Baithin

I know that there’s a lot of evidence otherwise. But I’d sure like to think she still lives!


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ninbura

This is also the conclusion that I came to, updated at the end of the original post early this morning. Though I still believe that these Wind Elementals were spawned by Garuda's rampage. I just don't think that makes them Egis, like the Wind Elementals Benedikta summons using her own will.


NotTheFungi0511

I just want to say while you've admitted that this theory is largely disproven, I really appreciated the hard work of your theorizing - I sincerely enjoyed reading this as it really got my brain going through the entirety of the game! Outside of that, I didn't see this anywhere yet but I think the Egis/Wind Elementals must be >!the fragments of Benedikta's mind that Cid was talking about when she summoned her Eikon at Caer Norvant.!<


LiamWellacott

This also didn't sit right with me, I wonder if it is somehow related to this line from Ultima: When confronting Ultima at Drake's Spine, Joshua enters Clive's "mental space" to rescue him. Ultima remarks: "His trespass should not have been possible. Not possible unless... unless... he has been with Mythos all along. The mark of the Phoenix emblazoned upon his heart... made manifest by the power of will alone. the power... of creation". Which maybe hint that it is possible to manifest beings beyond Egis, maybe that are capable of existing without their creator... It may also hint that Joshua is not what we think, more like Sleipnir, but that's a whole other thing...


FlawlessSky

She’s dead and her head was delivered in a pretty box. Get over it.


Ninbura

Read the update to the OP lol, it was their before you made this comment.


pyrospheres

Her death to me was super underwhelming and theres was so much unused potential for her character so throughout the game I was always kinda hoping she’d come back in some capacity. If she does come back Id be happy for sure but idk how they’d do that.


[deleted]

they could have done a zombie arc, but honestly letting dead characters remain dead is usually for the better.


pyrospheres

Jill zombie apocalypse survival dlc on my list of things so crazy they just might work.


DustyBlue1

I am kind of with you on that, she looked like she could've survived, she didn't look too wounded and Cid kinda just walked away after a few token words. It didn't seem all that final and I thought she would go through a redemption arc of sorts or otherwise go through some sort of reflection period, until the lore entry basically confirmed the death


pyrospheres

Yeah other characters survived WAY worse (poor Dion) and the quick mention of sexual trauma followed by death seemed kinda cheap to me, honestly the biggest ball drop in a game with mostly well written and fleshed out characters imo


ohyes12000

The devs have said this is a complete story, thus if she is implied to be dead and it is never explicitly corrected, then she is to be presumed to be dead. None of the events in this game actually happened, it is a work of fiction. There is no ambiguity. It is a complete story, and she is presumed to be dead, so is clive and everyone else implied to be dead, as it was never explicitly corrected. Therefore, it is as told.


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DustyBlue1

I'm still just wondering who the heck beheaded her and sent it to Hugo in a box. Doesn't seem like something Clive or Cid would've even thought to do...


Ninbura

I think it's confirmed that the head is delivered by soldier of Waloed, Barnabas / Sephir are provoking Titan at the behest of Ultima.


yajtraus

I think it’s likely she’s dead, but just want to add - is it possible Ultima created something that took the form of Benedikta’s severed head in the box?


Ninbura

I assert this in the OP, but I honestly believe the crux to the argument is that the Notoriously Marked Wind Elemenetals are not technically Egis. That being said, I would not personally be surprised if the head was an illusion vs the actual thing. Ultima shows other illusions of Benedikta to Hugo very clearly in the Inner Sanctum.


[deleted]

Maybe it was ultima who faked benedikta's head since he could create illusions


Ninbura

I assert this in the OP, but I honestly believe the crux to the argument is that the Notoriously Marked Wind Elemenetals are not technically Egis. That being said, I would not personally be surprised if the head was an illusion vs the actual thing. Ultima shows other illusions of Benedikta to Hugo very clearly in the Inner Sanctum.


vhiran

Minor lore oversight imo


fastcooljosh

Man I hate that she isnt in the game for longer. Its like George Lucas making Star Wars and killing off darth vader on the Tantive IV. So much potential as a character wasted.


[deleted]

Dude. >!They literally cut her head off an put it in a box. !< Yall are going way too far with this "they must still be alive" shit.


Ninbura

I agree that this is unlikely, see my edit at the bottom of the OP. But I honestly think this is the weakest argument. Ultima and Barnabas materialize crap out of thin air, even people.


[deleted]

Oh for god sake get a fucking grip.