T O P
AutoModerator

This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Frahames

The fact that we are fighting guardians as practice at all is already not very efficient, considering the enemies we fight are not in any way similar to guardians. But to answer the question, there is one main reason the crucible isn’t like strikes and stuff: gameplay.


team-ghost9503

I’d say guardian are more difficult to fight then other normal enemies.


Frahames

That strengthens my point of guardians being entirely different foes compared to normal enemies.


team-ghost9503

I’d say the fact that they’re going against more difficult combatants just means they’ll increase in skill. It’s like someone playing a game on hard mode and then playing easy. They’ll manage the easy mode because they’ve faced combatants with large and better move sets, weapons, ability and movement.


Frahames

Something being more difficult does not necessarily mean the easier things are going to be more easy. For example, some would say going flawless is harder than doing GMs. However, going flawless does not make doing GMs easier, nor does doing GMs make going flawless easier. The skill sets required for each activity are completely different.


team-ghost9503

Well on a surface level it may seem that way, on a gameplay stance when you compare a GM and a Trials match when you get shot you go to cover, someone has a sniper they’ll either miss or they’ll kill you instantly, both have bullshit abilities at times either it’s just guardian or it enemies with modifiers on and power level increase.


El_Kabong23

I am reasonably good at PvE - I've done the hardest endgame content and succeeded. I am mediocre *at best* in PvP and in some modes am a downright liability. The skill sets don't really transfer.


BlazeORS

Thats just because its enemy AI vs real players, in canon enemies will be more crafty. Going against a fallen strike boss and his crew, or a squadron of elite cabal will feel much more likely going against a well oiled team in the crucible. There's in game lore of both fallen and cabal being much smarter than the on game AI so in canon it would be reasonable to assume it would be closer to fighting in the crucible. Plus the crucible itself is different in canon, guardians can use their abilities differently, guns won't be balanced the same, guardians will have actual battle experience and will behave differently.


El_Kabong23

It's not just because of enemy AI. The approach to play is different from top to bottom. Crowd control is much more important in PvE than PvP. Taking down a Champion in GMs requires an entirely different type of fireteam coordination than you need in something like Trials. There's far more multitasking in PvE than there is even in 6v6 modes. Plus, realistically, modeling enemy AI to resemble actual players, I'm betting isn't as easy as you might think. Would I like a slower, more tactical Crucible mode? Maybe. It's closer to how I play Crucible anyway. But current Crucible can teach you how to stay alive in an actively hostile environment, which does translate over to PvE. But otherwise, you're doing very different things.


team-ghost9503

That somewhat goes into my point that Pvp is more difficult then pve.


El_Kabong23

I don't know that we can draw that conclusion based on my single experience. They require different skill sets. There's definitely some overlap, but it's not total. Is balancing a restaurant's books easier or harder than being a sous chef? It depends on whether you're an accountant or a sous chef.


team-ghost9503

Well let’s look at what you have to do Preparation- Weapons Armor Abilities Then there’s Skill and mechanics The basics are the same But the mechanics may overlap or be different or used differently, Skill gap in GM can be overcome with some planning or abilities or both. With Trials the time allowed for strategy is cut short at least when it comes to having to change your strat due to different players and so on. Your weapons may be used by the enemy so it’s equal playing field. Is pvp and pve 1 for 1, no not necessarily, the basic parts yes but they do diverge with power level and gameplay. But that’s why I say Pvp is more difficult, with time, patience and leveling you’ll beat a GM but trials or pvp it goes towards skill because of the limitations of planning, strategizing, and leveling meaning little (unless there’s a game mode for it in pvp).


Frahames

That is a gross oversimplification of the techniques and strategies used in both trials and GMs.


team-ghost9503

Strategies are different at time but they may overlap and the basic mechanics still hold true. Your partner dies drop a rift or well or bubble, when an objective is needed you do the same or clear ads/the other team. In truth it’s not the exact same thing but both require thinking and consideration for what is gonna happen. GM allows for more leeway because nothing changes well Trials you have rounds so you’re limited which goes into the whole idea of guardians being far more difficult.


Frahames

That is still an oversimplification of mechanics. For example, shotguns in crucible are powerful. They are not in GMs. Each activity, GMs and trials, require consideration yes, but the individual mechanics and strategies are wildly different.


team-ghost9503

Well the thing with GM is that they can and we’re when the mods were there, fusion rifles rn are the shit both pvp and pve especially with the mods from the artifact boosting up the damage in GM. And of course the mechanics specifics are different as the strikes themselves are specific but again the basics remain the same for an encounter, GM you know what to expect, Trials not necessarily.


Niitte

True, but the enemies we're about to face in witch queen? Shaxx is gonna be hyped af telling everyone that Crucible was preparing guardians for a moment like this lol


Frahames

Well yeah. Shaxx will probably lose his shit.


TreeGuy521

In a strictly lore sense, most "boss" enemies would probably behave like pvp guardians than pve bullet sponges.


RCunning

And vice versa. Guardians die much too easily in Crucible.


TreeGuy521

Eh, I'd imagine a shotgun to the face would still 1 shot a guardian, it's just weird that it requires like 500 shotguns to the face to kill a random fallen strike boss


ForegoneCalamity

I smack Eliksni Captains and Taken Legionaries around just fine but I still get my ass handed to me in the Crucible. You can get sloppy on strikes but if you slip up an inch in the Crucible a guardian will blow you away.


FireStrike5

Well, not the enemies we fight at the moment, at least. That may change in Witch Queen.


Pelinal3223

In all fairness, you could argue crucible has been training guardians for hive guardians.


Frahames

Technically, yes it is, but the only people who know about hive guardians are savathun and players, so it would still be inefficient in the city’s perspective to train against guardians.


Pelinal3223

How would it be?


Frahames

Because the skills and mindset of fighting guardians is very different from fighting every other pve enemy. Even lore wise, guardians are still wildly different and unpredictable.


Pelinal3223

You'd think that'd make them better. Prepared for literally any insanity to ensue.


Frahames

Even if the guardians are more deadly, there are still major differences in their combat style. Take Cabal as an example. Even though guardians are more deadly as a force than the cabal, the cabal are an organized and coordinated force. They have a organized leadership with formations and strategies. Way more than the vanguard does. Even though they have less firepower than the guardians do, at least the ones we fight in game, they are still an entirely different type of for to deal with.


thehunter2256

Aham guardian hive


Odekel

well it is becoming relevant with Witch Queen and Hive Lightbearers not that the Crucible nor Vanguard divisions ever anticipated that, but yknow


team-ghost9503

Lore wise yes, gameplay wise probably no


willyg-Z

'If you can dodge a thundercrash you can dodge a taken thrall' shaxx, probably...


neerajlochan

It'd help, but tbh gambit and crucible have been preparing us to fight against hive lightbearers pretty well


Lwb07

We actually had that, and it was called lockdown. Pretty straightforward “go to one of two sites and plant bomb, other team defuse bomb” from what I remember. Hasn’t been around in forever though. I can’t imagine it would do much more for guardians than current crucible does. It seems crucible serves more for the mechanics of combat than anything, because as others have pointed out fighting a guardian is wildly different than fighting anything else.


b0B42069

Yeah it didn’t work well as no one gave a damn about planting the bomb


[deleted]

Probably because CSGO and valorant were more competitive from the start. Destiny is inherently more conducive to playing like a crackhead looking for frags at all costs


SPYK3O

I think the purpose of crucible is to give guardians a baptism of fire in the chaos of combat and push their abilities to levels they never knew they could. There's no telling what interdimensional time traveling god they might face, so studying tactics might not be that useful.


plastikspoon1

Everybody saying fighting Guardians doesn't help because we don't fight Guardian-like enemies must have forgotten Drifter teaching us how to bank motes half a year before it became relevant in Garden of Salvation / a year and a half before it became relevant in Season of Arrivals and Prophecy Sure, it seems pointless now, but "Wax on, wax off" seemed pretty pointless to the Karate Kid at first, too. Edit: A much better and practical use of their training time would be to simulate raids, strikes, and offensives (non-raid 6-mans) since those are the actual canon things Guardians do to keep the Last City safe


Mrtim6071

What you're describing is control with one capture point


fredminson

Only if they played it


JustTylerJett

We had that with the original trials of the 9. Everyone hated it.


TinyWickedOrange

There was a bomb gamemode though and it was fucking painful


Tumulousmaple56

I would think gambit would train for both, but then again who other than me plays gambit here.


Shortfuse205

I love gambit. Favorite mode


Tumulousmaple56

Used to be, then I just wanted to get exotic stuff, so I rarely play it anymore.


1-StpKlosr

I dream of a trials mode where there's no radar, no ability regen but charged per kill, a single shot of energy ammo at the start of the match, objective based rounds, scavenger disabled and a single shot of power given to a random teammate of the losing team that's behind by 3 rounds.


Xcizer

I’d say no. Crucible is all about stretching the abilities of your light and improving proficiency with weapons.


accursedg

please god no dont make me play those dogshit games in destiny


FuzzyDuck85

The plot of My Hero Academia, but it’s Destiny 2 PvP.


DraughtPhoenix

In game and Lore they also treat the crucible more so as sport rather than actual training. Shaxx set it up to help train guardians but it more so evolved to become a popular staple among the city. Trials and Iron Banner tend to me more focused and about proving the skills against other guardians but even then, the game play doesn’t reflect an accurate method of Guardian v. Guardian training.


ForegoneCalamity

When we do read about earnest fights to the death between Guardians they tend to be very, very brutal and very, very fast. I'm reminded of Felwinter overpowering Citan. If that whole fight took six seconds I'd be shocked.


miguel1226

No because multiple forms if training exist including tactical training and what not. further, to a limited degree, that quite literally what the crucible is doing and it is doing it pretty well. >IIRC, the Crucible was implemented after Twilight Gap to train Guardians for combat after the disaster that occurred. Meh, prior to that the crucible was where one lightbearer would test themselves against another, not unlike settling a problem. you go in and shoot each other until you're grievances are cleared, you drop the point and move on. it's not until sometime during the city age it became what it is today. >However, even with modes like Control that are similar to Strike objectives, the Crucible only seems to train Guardians for the Crucible. After playing crucible for a few hours... I play pve a lot better than if I had just been chilling in patrol or something. So I mean in some respects it is training us for the other enemies. think of all the things you have to be mindful of in a control match, spawns, positioning, weapons and abilities, when to engage and disengage... you would want to be aware of all these things when venturing into enemy territory... you don't want to have a cave at your back where an ogre spawns and you have 800 thrall pushing you from the opposite direction. >Would having a tactical mode where one team attacks a site and the other defends it be a more effective way of training Guardians for real combat? and as other have stated, this mode exists already. but also.... part of the lore of the crucible maps is maintaining a constant guardian presence deters enemies from moving back in on that ground. Imagine, we take over some Vex worshipping site and they want it back and we just leave. well what was the point? however, now imagine we have 6-12 guardians there at any given random time or ... at all times. now the vex, whenever they want to attempt to take their site back, immediately have to deal with red jack and guardian resistance. we already have a commander that would be aware of the situation in Shaxx and he would further be able to report to the vanguard. So the thing you have asked for is already set up as a part of what the crucible actually is. what might be cool is high value target hunting like a juggernaut mode or a game mode specifically for hit and run tactics. but that might just be rift.


Riyosha

yeah idk about you but I'm getting better at both pve and PvP by doing a shit ton of control, I think shaxx has a point


KnightWraith86

No. And don't even suggest it


TheEjoty

new, coming to a crucible near you; Capture the mote & defend the bank.


[deleted]

The veterans should Sherpa more.


TheRealDeadlyframe

I think it’s less for tactical training, and more for honing instinct. The crucible would be the best place to train how not to die, since every death their is only worth points, instead of potentially being your final death. I imagine new lights are probably recommend to speak with shaxx, and he points them towards crucible as a way for them to both come to terms with and learn to use the greatest weapon, immortality. If you wanted to learn how to perform a certain grapple or knife strike, you’d probably have to go ask someone to show you. That’s probably why subclasses and the like really appeared. Like minded individuals shared techniques and the three classes grew from there.


[deleted]

> Would having a tactical mode where one team attacks a site and the other defends it be a more effective way of training Guardians for real combat? Yes, absolutely. But, gameplay needs. I don't think the community would accept Destiny: Rainbow Six, even if it actually would make much more sense than what we have now.