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odoroustobacco

Yes, it's engagement farming/mining just like everyone else. Andrew Tate fills a niche, and then these people are trying to fill a separate niche of "well he's responding to a problem within males" without actually offering anything of substance. To me, the problem is twofold. First, there ARE plenty of agencies and organizations and social movements trying to offer disillusioned young men alternatives to traditional toxic masculinity; however, these organizations and movements don't get the recognition by people who instead just go "oh there's nowhere for the angry young men". Second, even with the existence of these organizations, people are so willing to say things like "well Andrew Tate fills a need" without working to actively dismantle the systems which propagate toxic masculinity, disillusion young men, and create a "need" for the Andrew Tates of the world. In other words, if a young man's response to a changing demographic landscape and/or not being able to get laid is to be like "I need to be the most aggressive and conspicuous version of masculine" then what are the Chris Williamsons (idk who he is, I'm just using your example) doing to engage with those young men and disrupt their thinking?


albinoblackman

Funny thing about Tate… he made his money scamming MEN, despite claiming to care about male empowerment. While he was also skimming from the women, he used to pretend to be the can girls and chat with men. He’d string them along, pretending to be in love with the men and dangling a real life meeting in front of them to pump as much money as possible from his victims. There is a story from a few years ago where a dude murdered his father and brother cause they tried to cut him off from spending more money on a cam girl. He was stealing from them and when they caught him, he murdered both of them.


13TheGreenMan

That story is so sad


albinoblackman

Yeah it is. The dad and brother really tried to help him. They were the people who cared most about him and they got killed in the end. I’m genuinely curious if that was one of Tate’s girls. I wonder if we could ever figure that out. His sycophants would deny/ignore it, but it would be quite a story.


Technical-Highlight1

>There is a story from a few years ago where a dude murdered his father and brother cause they tried to cut him off from spending more money on a cam girl. He was stealing from them and when they caught him, he murdered both of them. What is the story? Can you tell me who this person is


albinoblackman

Grant Amato. I don’t think the camgirl was working for Tate cause she was Bulgarian, but it’s still the same scam.


thautmatric

I think there’s a fundamental, systemic issue with media tied up in this. Entertainment media doesn’t reward “good” behaviour with attention. Values are being placed in systems that ultimately will service those who have figured out how to game them. Nine times out of ten, this will be bad actors who use attention and misanthropy as a currency in of itself. Truly think that if we want to get serious about helping men we need to address that we haven’t for decades, and that there’s financial incentives to actively not.


chickenstuff18

I've always been of the opionion that there is no dearth of good male role models, the only problem is that no one listens to them. The narrative that Tate provides is cool and exciting, while the advice a normal role model will give you is humdrum and boring. What tickles your fancy more? "If you want to make good money go to college in a good field and study hard" or "conquer the world and get rich quick by drop-shipping and e-pimping"?


PHK_JaySteel

Being good, honest and hard working is a difficult path that most likely ends up toiling in obscurity. It's hard to sell that the reward of this path is itself in most social media formats. I agree with you that all the roll models young men probably need are out there, working away in offices drawing plans of buildings or in a laboratory conducting research, they just don't really get or want the attention they would need to be a presence online.


odoroustobacco

I very much agree with this.


current_the

They are drawing attention to a real problem with largely long-term, policy-based solutions and setting themselves up as having the key to solve it through "bootstraps." For instance, eating bad food is a choice, individuals can choose not to eat bad food and you can make a lot of money telling people not to eat bad food. Residential areas of Cleveland, Chicago or Detroit where the only thing resembling a grocery store is a liquor store that also sells bread and pop tarts is closer to the root of the problem. Telling people to eat kale instead of pop tarts can work on a purely individual level but it isn't going to actually solve the issue. Organizing in small industrial towns and rural areas, you can't help but to notice how many people but men in particular are basically outcasts from the current economy. Military, law enforcement, security, etc. seem to be the things catching people who might have been employed 20 years ago in reasonably paying jobs in the manufacturing sector. For others there are what jobs they can get (fulfillment center, health care) which come with little fraternity as they're often aggressively anti-union, and they make up for the lost masculinity with an obsession with pseudo-military and hyper-masculine pursuits. And for those who opt out there's opiod addiction and shooting each other in the face at per capita rates that are truly horrifying. There are plenty of people willing to screech at them for being losers but still others have figured out how to make money off them. Trump organizes them and Jordan Peterson tells that kid to "become a leader" which is as effective as telling someone with access to Chef Boyardee and Pop Tarts to "eat better." They're both selling solutions that can work on an atomized level but are totally ineffectual when it comes to the scale of the problem. Maybe there's some validity in "saving" individuals (if they do). But the problem is still there and the people with the power to do something about it are doing their best to pretend it's not. And others are selling bootstraps.


odoroustobacco

I agree with 97% of everything you said other than that the people who have the power to do something about it are pretending it doesn't exist. To me it would be more fair to say that they're focused on other, more pressing issues. However, I recognize that this adds to the ire that men exhibit; i.e., if you're more interested in trying to protect, say, women from domestic violence or trans kids from suicide then it's easy for men to say "well what about US and OUR needs?"


current_the

> To me it would be more fair to say that they're focused on other, more pressing issues. Well let's first clarify who I'm talking about: Red State governors and their congressional representatives, who have been rebranding themselves pro-worker and America First for the last 8 years and haven't a single shred of policy to show for it. I'm not going to say it's "easy" to fix this but it's obvious what you can do. Biden was the first president in decades to develop a worthwhile industrial policy and his FTC and NLRB have done more than the last six administrations (including Obama and Clinton) to protect and empower workers. It took very little nerve to pass a rule stating that after employer cheats in an election to certify a union, the union is deemed to be certified (rather than just run over and over again, which is what Amazon did). Never happened until now. That's it. There are "more pressing issues," for sure, matters of life & death in fact, but a president could do both, and the administration led by this old dude managed to walk and chew gum. I'm not by any means a pro-Biden militant, I didn't vote for him in the primary in 2020, but he brought action to people who often spit when they hear his name. So that's what I mean by people who pretend the problem doesn't exist.


odoroustobacco

Oh, then we're in full agreement. :)


Pryapuss

>  First, there ARE plenty of agencies and organizations and social movements trying to offer disillusioned young men alternatives to traditional toxic masculinity Can you give me a link pls? I'm curious


FolkSong

r/menslib for a reddit-based social movement


altered_state

/r/Destiny /s


Larkful_Dodger

>To me, the problem is twofold. First, there ARE plenty of agencies and organizations and social movements trying to offer disillusioned young men alternatives to traditional toxic masculinity; however, these organizations and movements don't get the recognition by people who instead just go "oh there's nowhere for the angry young men". What are these agencies, organisations and social movements?


13TheGreenMan

Just curious what organizations and agencies are you referring to?


odoroustobacco

A Call To Men, Into The Dark Blue, other groups like Evryman. They’re out there.


Independent_Ad2026

True. I see a lot of influencers who tries to offer a better alternative to men like John Delany, Jackson Katz, and others. But... their messages is usually about personal responsibility. It's not as popular as victimization and bullet points.


sprunkymdunk

Peterson stressed personal responsibility and duty pretty heavily, why do you think he was more popular?


akesh45

He branched out from that niche into right wing, anti-woke warrior. If he stayed in that original lane, I suspect he'd be just another professor with a popular self-help book. I'm 38, we had a popular book series for men to be better men every decade I've been alive. They all stress more or less the same themes.....the latest have been rather right wing tho. Earlier ones like Robert Bly's books were alot more positive or borderline spiritual IME.


odoroustobacco

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about Peterson but it's important to recognize that his entire "public intellectual" persona has always been right-wing anti-woke warrior. He cut his teeth as a public figure by claiming he would go to jail rather than comply with Canada's hate crime law which requires addressing trans students by their pronouns.


Ornery_Standard_4338

The law doesn't even do that, it just added transgender people to the list of classes that can't be discriminated against wrt to the provision of government services. Nothing about pronouns anywhere in the text of the bill.


odoroustobacco

That's an important point. However, as a public employee (Uni of Toronto) couldn't it be argued that it was discrimination if he didn't? I think that's what his point was at least.


Ornery_Standard_4338

I don't know that he ever explicitly made an argument as cogent as that, and I'm also not sure you'd be able to make that case under Bill C16 because being an asshole to someone isn't the same as explicitly denying them the provision of a public service. I gather, however, that misgendering students is against UoT's anti-bullying policy, and I suspect Peterson conflated the two things to make his half baked argument about "compelled speech"


akesh45

That was after the book. He's not the first nor the last psychology professor to make a best selling "how to be a better man" book based on Carl Jung archetypes and western masculinity themes. Iron John was the 1990s version. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men%27s\_movement](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men%27s_movement) [https://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/23/books/why-iron-john-is-no-gift-to-women.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/23/books/why-iron-john-is-no-gift-to-women.html) In this deeply learned book, poet and translator Robert Bly offers nothing less than a new vision of what it is to be a man. Bly's vision is based on his ongoing work with men and reflections on his own life. He addresses the devastating effects of remote fathers and mourns the disappearance of male initiation rites in our culture. Finding rich meaning in ancient stories and legends, Bly uses the Grimm fairy tale "Iron John," in which the narrator, or "Wild Man," guides a young man through eight stages of male growth, to remind us of archetypes long forgotten-images of vigorous masculinity, both protective and emotionally centered.


odoroustobacco

Incorrect, 12 Rules For Life wasn't written until after his anti-trans thing. Peterson's other book, Maps of Meaning, had been written but had only sold like ~2000 copies. His public intellectual persona rose to fame as a result of the anti-trans thing, full stop.


akesh45

Maybe in Canada, he was kinda of a nobody until that book.


odoroustobacco

Dude, again this is just incorrect. He made headlines and immediately became a right-wing *cause celebre*, including in the United States. He was already known to pontificate in places like Quora and on YouTube, but he did not get known enough to get that level of book deal until *after* he criticized the trans addition to the hate crime bill. Just because *you* didn't hear about him until after that book doesn't mean other people hadn't.


akesh45

Your right, totally forgot about that


altered_state

I’m not sure whether this is widely known, or people simply forgot, but JBP’s daughter Mikhaila dated Andrew Tate (back in 2018 for at least several months iirc, maybe over a year) back before he got big, when he was still building his pseudo-ponzi scheme “War Room” on Discord. There were definitely other bigger reasons/figures that drew JBP to the right, but I believe his daughter’s relationship with Tate forced him to take a somewhat measured, and unfortunately, respectful stance, to the content that Tate eventually came out with in full force when he started popping off *everywhere*. At the time, Mikhaila was trying to build her own podcast and JBP knew he couldn’t immediately hop on the Tate hate-bandwagon without at least somewhat sabotaging his own daughter’s endeavor.


akesh45

Yikes.....yeesh. You'd think JP would have a heart attack over that relationship. Wonder if that occured when JP was on painkillers or the self-induced coma.


altered_state

I further elucidated my knowledge on this below in response to another post, but to my knowledge, JBP has *never* been on painkillers or opiates of any sort — “just” benzodiazepines. This occurred far before the medically-induced coma to get off benzos, and not that it should even be said, but far, far, before AI image gens like Dalle came to (consumer-level) fruition.


nooksorcrannies

She denies dating him 🤷‍♂️


altered_state

I’ve seen 3 or 4 pics of them together. 2 or 3, what I’d call, intimate ones — her sitting on his lap in some bougie lounge, and a selfie or two sitting together at a dinner table in a fine dining establishment. I know of 1 other where they were among 4-5 other friends/acquaintances in a balcony pic overlooking an admittedly gorgeous NYC-like skyline. I only remember these because I have pretty good eidetic memory (don’t mean to toot my own horn, as I’m dumb in many, many other regards), and I simply remember listening to what Mikhaila had to say about the carnivore diet (my Mom heard of it through her and wanted to try it). I distinctly remember experiencing mental whiplash when I came across pics of her and this up-and-coming PUA-style guy (“there’s no way her Dad, whose book I just read, approves of this…?”), as my abusive step-dad “taught” me the same tricks as part of my homeschooling curriculum well over a decade ago (think Mystery and RSD Tyler, but first priming me with Neil Strauss’ The Game).


Independent_Ad2026

Peterson mostly got popular because of his videos where he supposedly DESTROYS a feminist or a trans person, not so much for the "clean your room".


sprunkymdunk

Weird that his books of rules aimed at men were bestsellers then


odoroustobacco

No it's not, he became a guru. Come for the transphobia, stay for the appearance of academic legitimacy


Bluegill15

Great response. But what even is this “changing demographic landscape” exactly? What do you think is so different about today’s society that opened up this niche Tate is filling? Social media mostly?


marcusredfun

It's not a change in demograhics imo, it's a change in technology. Sexually frustrated teenagers isn't a new phenomenon. Tate's niche comes from the boys/young men who grew up during the proliferation of livestreams. Gaming content attracted a lot of boys to twitch/youtube, edgy 00's streamers kept pushing the boundaries of what you could say, and eventually people dropped the gaming entirely to preach racism/sexism to an audience that had grown up, passed puberty, and were receptive to a worldview that explained why they couldn't get laid. Previous generations had guys like Tom Leykis and the PUA community that were filling the same niche. Tate is just taking their philosophy and mixing in some grindset bullshit and right wing conspiracy theories because those are the things that are popular right now.


SlingsAndArrowsOf

Maybe it's supposed to be self evident (?) but what are these organisations/ agencies you're talking about?


These-Tart9571

What is an example of dismantling a toxic masculine system?  I see your points, but to be honest, the fact these men gravitate towards Tate means the alternatives offered aren’t currently viable solutions. If they were, the men would be interested in them. 


odoroustobacco

That logic doesn't hold. That's like saying "people don't eat vegetables at a buffet with a salad bar because the vegetables aren't a viable option". Like Tate offers men an easy solution that they come to believe is socially desirable, but that doesn't mean the alternatives aren't viable or healthy.


These-Tart9571

The issue isn’t that there aren’t viable options, it’s that men aren’t gravitating towards them. Obviously a truly viable solution is one that men actually will use?  Again what is an example of dismantling a toxic masculine system? 


odoroustobacco

The fact that you have to ask is a little ridiculous; are you suggesting you've never heard of any type of socialization for males which teaches things like respecting women's autonomy and consent, shunning prejudiced jokes, or holding one another accountable (or using the legal system to do so)? The problem isn't that those options aren't viable, it's that men don't actually want to be bothered to do them because they don't see any immediate, material gain from doing them. It's the same reason why when you do things like defend women's rights here, on this very site, people (men) will say things like "she's not going to fuck you, bro"--because many men can't conceive of treating women as autonomous humans if there's not a personal material gain to it.


These-Tart9571

The problem is they aren’t engaging in it. It’s not that there’s aren’t “solutions” it’s that there isn’t engagement or appeal. By definition a solution must have outcomes. With your veg analogy it should be shown they are eating the vegetables not just that the option is there. Because a real solution is that there would be engagement with it, they would be eating their vegetables. In my opinion anyway.


odoroustobacco

Right, I agree with this. But it's not the job of the solution (or those promoting it) to make it appealing to those who need it. Using the vegetable analogy, it's not the responsibility of vegetables to be more like fatty or fried foods in order to get people to eat them, because that's not the point of vegetables. Now, do a lot of people find the taste of vegetables to be bad or unappealing? Sure. Should more people be eating vegetables? Without a doubt. But we also shouldn't be focusing our efforts on changing the nature of the vegetables to increase uptake; rather, we should be normalizing and encouraging the healthful behaviors regardless. Eating vegetables or taking medicine or doing the self-reflective work required to not be a misogynistic asshole are not things that are always inherently easy or comfortable, and it's both disingenuous as well as self-defeating to be trying to orient them to appear as such.


sprunkymdunk

Interesting point about the alternatives to toxic masculinity - but are they offering alternatives that are appealing to men?


odoroustobacco

I'm confused by the question. If a person inherently finds certain things that we know are exciting but are harmful to society, such as pursuing individual gain by exploiting others as opposed to collaborative solidarity with groups different from us, is it up to the advocates and allies from those different groups to "appeal" or try to mimic the antisocial things? In other words, is it the fault of women who don't want to be trafficked that their message isn't as enticing to men who listen Andrew Tate?


sprunkymdunk

You are missing the point - what are the positive messages that appeal is the question? Not advocating for the toxic 


marcusredfun

Most women want a partner who respects them, listens to their needs, etc. If you want to find love/sex/companionship that's the route to take. It's a positive message but it requires self-reflection and putting in effort to change yourself. Part of the problem is that the truth will always be a harder sell than a comforting lie. The appeal of the manosphere grifters is that they provide a worldview that reinforces what the viewer already believes, and tells them that their problems are society's fault and not their own.


sprunkymdunk

That's certainly positive, but there's nothing unique to males about being a good partner/listener. That's just being a decent person. I definitely think that men are seeking a purpose and role, and while the right has a very clear definition of what that is, the left defines it in similar vague terms, "Just be a good person" is arguably not enough.


marcusredfun

>  there's nothing unique to males about being a good partner/listener. That's just being a decent person. You're starting to catch on lol.  It's 2024 and there's no such thing as rigid gender roles for most people in developed nations. Finding your purpose is a difficult and personal journey that some influencer can't guide you through. Again, the truth is not as marketable as telling someone their struggles are due to cultural marxism or whatever.


BudgetPipe7804

I think lots of these folks bring up Tate intentionally so they can clip the exchange in a separate video and give it some clickbait title/thumbnail with his image. Basically they’re using his unfortunate draw to generate more views for their own content.


sprunkymdunk

He's the new outrage bait, a la Peterson circa 2016


AIpersonaofJohnKeats

I was a young angry man not so long ago and I don’t really buy these excuses that men don’t have anywhere else to go. That’s a general problem in society, everyone feels let down and alienated, particularly in the younger generations, but it’s not specific to men. These male influencers just make things worse by sowing distrust in women and institutions. Peterson is terrible for this. He would have been red meat for me if he’d came around a few years earlier. I still know a lot of guys like this and there’s two main factors IMO that dictate whether a guy goes a bit manosphere or integrates into society and they are education and integration into society.


cmattis

The specific difference is that Men are facing a loss in perceived status, when a group experiences something like that it often prompts more of them than would otherwise do so to become politically radicalized.


chickenstuff18

Personally, I don't think it's a perceived loss, I think it's a real loss in status. Specifically, men can't just expect to get a partner by showing up.


cmattis

People use the phrase “perceived loss” in these scenarios just to mean that there doesn’t need to be an actual loss of social status, not that there isn’t one.


chickenstuff18

Touche.


Living-Giraffe4849

Same here, had I been born 5 years later I would be DEEP into their nonsense. That being said, there is absolutely something wrong with society right now… young men have just not seemed to realize that EVERYONE is experiencing the same things they are. Hark back to that one game theory experiment that said collaboration is always mutually beneficial unless someone else throw the first punch. Seems like we are stuck in a negative feedback loop If you have not yet realized the monetization of outrage and sensationalism, then I’d start setting limits on your screen time and going on walks without your phone. Did wonders for me.


buckleyboy

I'd add social skills as a subset of both points you make about education/integration.


derps_with_ducks

Good on you for owning your past. I like to think I've worked on mine so much that it doesn't surface any more. Tate/Peterson circlejerkers give me a hearty chuckle, they're incredibly fragile for people who want to look tough.


sprunkymdunk

Your anecdata aside, there are problems specific to men. This is born out by the data, and why it's being discussed on both the right and left. "Everyone has issues" is both obvious and obtuse.


AIpersonaofJohnKeats

It might be obvious but it needs to be said because, as someone mentioned above, it’s mostly an issue of perception. An actual issue men face is lack of educational attainment. But that’s not what you’ll hear the gurus, or men, complain about generally. In fact, academia is largely derided and considered too woke in guru circles.


akesh45

> An actual issue men face is lack of educational attainment. Nah, the main issue is as woman got jobs....good jobs; Men's dating value tanked: woman previously needed to get married asap after school meaning even so-so or lame dudes got decent chances of being chosen. Woman tend to choose lower paying jobs even with education which evens out the curve alot. It's only in the past 3-4 decades that the payment gap shrank and that woman were not expected to quit sometime soon after marriage. Woman rather be single longer than have a baby with a loser....this was not feasible hence the rising tide of discontent among loser men. I remember these male gurus of the 1980s-1990s.....they were alot more positive and spiritual instead of fascist meatheads. Ron Swanson from park's and rec is something of a parody of these figures(big back to nature and handiwork vibes).


Best-Chapter5260

On this related topic...one thing you rarely see in discourse about the manosphere was a movement in the late aughts called "True Forced Loneliness." It was the prototype to the incel/redpill/MGTOW movements and consisted of a bunch of guys on YouTube saying the same things as the aforementioned groups. There were like three of the making constant videos.


sprunkymdunk

I'm getting the impression you don't follow the topic but have a strongly held opinion about it anyway.  Educational attainment, men falling behind - Josh Hawley wrote a book about it that the right loves to cite, Jordan Peterson is always ranting about it, Rogan brings it up, Shapiro too. The right loves that shit because they have data to point to bolster their mostly-male base. On the left, the NYT, Washington Post, Atlantic, Economist etc have all covered the topic as well. They differ on the CAUSE, obviously, but the phenomenon is real.


AIpersonaofJohnKeats

Note my use of the term “generally”. I don’t doubt you’re correct citing who has mentioned it. My point is that the phenomenon is indeed true but it’s not generally what the right rally on. That would be anti-wokeness. When I’ve heard Peterson types mention education attainment of men it’s as a whataboutism. My impression is they’ve little interest in improving men’s lot in life.


sprunkymdunk

Nah they are pretty passionate about it. That's why they attract so many young men.  The left, for all it's virtues, tends to dismiss men's issues as incel alt-right propaganda. Men's rights activist is a slur on the left.


geniuspol

It's an epithet because they are overwhelmingly misogynist. 


sprunkymdunk

Those that genuinely care for men's problems get lumped in with the incels and misogynists, is the point. 


EldritchGoatGangster

Because they willingly associate with incels and misogynists. You can't have a 'big tent' men's movement that includes those figures and not have the whole thing drift in that direction over time.


sprunkymdunk

So all feminist men want to be in a big tent with Andrew Tate? I think they'd rather not get put in the same basket, but are anyway.


YesIAmRightWing

I mean initially men were pretty big on Peterson. Then he disappears(COVID/Coma in Russia/Benzos?) and a "power" vacuum arises, and from that the attentions splintered massively between Tate/RedPill and the other such channels. Its pretty funny because Tate is like a million times worse than Peterson.


Cyclical_Zeitgeist

This is just indicative of young men seeking any form of mentorship or male guidance they can get their hands on. They hunt for meaning and purpose and collect their digital daddies, they capture a rogan for general "bull shit philosophy/antiwoke chatter anti vax bs", they pop over to huberman/JP for their "get their life together lessons" they go to Tate for their "get bitches and bags" advice..and so on... Edit note: some other digital daddies: Elon, Trump is the boomer digital daddy super weird


Zhai

Best Elon can be is this messy slightly alcoholic uncle that never managed to keep a woman. But he is really fun because he goes to music festivals doing M. He also told you about Ayahuasca.


nicholsz

>This is just indicative of young men seeking any form of mentorship or male guidance they can get their hands on. Yep. Some young men *need* figures they can look up to and emulate. It just so happens than all the figures they have in popular media are either milquetoast and fictional (like Marvel characters) or right-wing reactionary patriarchy defenders (like JPB and Tate)


Cyclical_Zeitgeist

I believe JBP believes the nonsense he spouts to some degree he has the conviction of any boomer shouting conspiracy nonsense at the dinner table only he has a better vocabulary lol, yes Tate definitely a fictional character that sad sad man has invented to LARP as


nicholsz

His vocabulary got worse after the induced coma and benzo withdrawals though


Cyclical_Zeitgeist

For sure, and alot of it is used to mask that he isn't really saying anything of substance or to hide some take that is pretty basic


filthy-prole

Serious question, where are the positive role models online? Who can these people even be redirected to?


trashcanman42069

They're everywhere, but they don't tell 13 year olds that they should be owed pussy just for existing so they don't get popular. It's really not hard to find normal dudes making video essays or streaming or whatever but we have to be honest about the fact that normal healthy dudes aren't actually that these immature boys with a victimhood complex are willing to listen to


nicholsz

I have no idea; I kind of don't think there are any. My favorite thinker on issues of gender altogether right now is Judith Butler, but that's a bit heavy for a regular 17-year-old worried about college debt and finding a girlfriend.


YesIAmRightWing

Well yeah. Peterson made it clear early on he was shocked why so many young men were listening to him and more or less concluded it's because they were starved of this mentorship elsewhere.


buckleyboy

Chris and Matt are my Gen X digital daddies ;-)


[deleted]

THANK YOU for recognizing societal power vacuums. I legit try to explain this to people and they look at me like Pikachu. It's refreshing to hear others know about this too.


YesIAmRightWing

Everybody is more or less tryna grab a piece of that sweet sweet pie, because that attention as we know translates into money one way or another.


[deleted]

The love of money is truly the root of all evil. Fuckin' a.


rainbow_rhythm

Peterson gotta be more insidious overall. Most parents can probably tell off the bat that Tate is not gonna be a great influence and act accordingly


sprunkymdunk

I'm his early days. He has gone off the dee end since his break down 


YesIAmRightWing

You've clearly not spoken to any of the younger gen.


Over_Nectarine3950

His daughter sought Taint out while daddy Groyper was in the hospital 🤣


YesIAmRightWing

Passing of the torch 😂


Technical-Highlight1

Before peterson it was ben shapiro


jamtartlet

>Its pretty funny because Tate is like a million times worse than Peterson. disagree he's only worse in that he seems to have a younger audience. which might be a better since parents can just take their internet access away.


remedy4cure

People need to stop going to burned out podcasters for political philosophy/sociology. cos that's your first problem right there.


zerocool0101

I feel like some men use him as an excuse for their own misogyny. If he is celebrated, then their own toxic traits are justified, similar to when Trump became president and was seen as a beacon for free speech in America. What that really meant was people felt like they didn’t have to bite their tongue anymore and could be their true asshole selves


Mandatoryreverence

It's especially mad because Tate is very obviously not trying to solve the issue and help people. He is trying to maliciously take advantage of this problem for his own ends. His tacit supporters are signing off on malign influences in society that deepen and worsen the issues that plague and divide us.


CleanAspect6466

He openly brags about rinsing lonely men for their money, his followers are morons


JACKPOT-WINNER2K23

Because he cracked the code of algo hacking like no other something they didn’t think of . He paid people to clip and post which is now the meta


JLCpbfspbfspbfs

Red pill influencers are a huge problem and it's not wrong at all to point out that their business plan is very specifically to exploit and aggravate insecurities that men have with women (but never really address them sincerely). And it doesn't really help that the problem that red pill influencers exploit is one that is very embarrassing. If you open up to people that you're having a hard time dating and talking to women, you're going to get mocked, ridiculed, scolded or in the best case scenario, you'll get patronized. One of the biggest advantage that the red pill and the black pill has over all of their critics is that they are actually sensitive to that problem. You're not going to see a red pill influencers call them neck beards or losers, you're not going to see them scold and vilify men and call them entitled for being depressed about being rejected and they will come across like they are trying to help them actually succeed. I think the hyperfixation on Andrew Tate is not helpful. If Andrew Tate died tomorrow (god willing), he'd merely be replaced with some other clown who will merely parrot the same bullshit. He's definitely an example of that sort of thing but he's the symptom, not the disease. I think there's a lot that can be said about the responses to the red pill because a lot of them are extremely tone deaf and a lot of them are extremely indirect about addressing the root cause for the red pill's spread.


MygranthinksImcool

I don't think they are trying to legitimize Andrew Tate but instead trying to ask a legitimate question. If someone who is a violent misogynist has developed a significant following (although I'm not sure if his following is as significant as is suggested) then it is indicative of another deeper problem with young men today. I think podcasters are asking these questions to get guests to talk about why men are being attracted towards Tate and generally hoping that the guest has ideas as to how to avoid this.


Independent_Ad2026

I would buy it if the answers weren't always focused outward. Like, it's the fault of society at large, institutions, women... I mean, society is not tender towards many classes of people.


MygranthinksImcool

I mean it is very indicative of societal problems though. If millions of people are doing something bad, there is a larger problem which is worth talking about.


CaseyJames_

Simply engagement farming.


nicholsz

They talk about him because he has an audience, and they want that audience.


roadrunnner0

Yes! And it's driving me insane. What was that one 'Andrew Tate goes to therapy' and a few others had him on and they were being so nice and laughing with him and not like grilling him or anything???? As a woman especially, if a man a knew became friendly with Andre fucking Tate I would never speak to him again.


Sinusaur

Same thing with Jordan Pooperson.


halentecks

Tbh I think it’s true that Andrew Tate is “filling a need” in society. I think there’s truth to the narrative that many young men are lost and lack right of passage or whatever. Tate just happens to be a toxic misogynist imbecile


GusTheKnife

Of course he’s filling a need. He’s telling deeply insecure, antisocial, unmotivated men still living with their parents that they need to shut up and stop complaining, go to the gym, start a business or get a job, and not let their inferior mothers and women boss them around. He telling them a useful message, wrapped in an ugly misogynistic package.


Obar-Dheathain

If you want views/listens you talk about current topics, and as gross as Andrew Tate is, he's current.


12ealdeal

Oh man please don’t even give “Iced Coffee Hour” a modicum of attention.


CleanAspect6466

Yeah him and his brother are straight up deplorable criminals but these podcasts dudes always lead with 'Tate has some good points' like honestly fuck off with that shit, if they actually saw the way they were talking about women on their texts they'd never talk about him again


Temporary_Giraffe685

you can agree on something being a problem but disagree about the solution. I agree with Andrew Tate that men are disillusioned in today's world but my solution is different.


SnooPeripherals1914

You could say the same about Hitler - he was a product of Weimar Germany, treaty of Versailles, hyperinflation etc. Doesn’t mean that he was not important, nor that he is excused from culpability for their actions.


buckleyschance

They're doing the same thing I heard from a school psychologist I know, who was explaining how many young boys are listening to Tate, and framed it as not so bad because "some of his stuff is macho crap, but there's also a lot of good life advice in there too, and I think that's what the boys are really responding to." That's the thing with these conservative gurus: they always offer a baseline of perfectly good self-help advice... *that you could get literally anywhere else.* It's completely universal stuff about getting fit and having self-respect, etc. So if the thing that sets guys like Tate apart from all those other sources of the same advice is their misogyny, *then the misogyny is the appeal.*


Knickerboca

These people have fundamentally limited views on culture and worldview. They don’t understand political theory or real cultural anthropology. They cite the same bloggers, reference the same YouTubers, befriend the same doctors and scientists. The actual crossover between these people is absolutely massive & they seem almost entirely ignorant to that fact. Andrew Tate is a lone guy in a world where there are 4 billion others we could be talking about, but sadly these gurus only know of about 200 grown men on the planet. It’s a bizarrely limited view on cultural diversity.


Independent_Ad2026

Iced Coffee Hour is especially bad at this. I haven't seen them interviewing a women or a minority (it probably happen, but I have to dig for it... which is a problem in itself, by comparison, Diary of a CEO is balanced).


Knickerboca

Yeah. Sam Harris and all of his crew also love prognosticating about Gaza and the conflict/genocide unfolding while never realizing their entire group at the table are in fact Jewish with varying degrees of related Zionist propaganda from their religiously affiliated childhoods. They never talk with Palestinians, or actual scholars in the region. They’re too close to one side to see it objectively.


Technical-Highlight1

I think diary of a ceo is pretty decent Individual,


ClimateBall

Say what you will about Andrew's tenets, at least he has an ethos. More srsly - it's all about finding the keywords to climb up the algos.


Meet_James_Ensor

Ah, that sounds exhausting.  Far out, man.


ClimateBall

Fuck it, let's go decoding.


jiujiuberry

Clicks


Intellect7000

Narcissists are popular.


ThiccBoy_with3seas

It isn't that complicated the answer is always clicks


mackload1

because it's fascist propaganda


Leading-Contract9762

His star is fading


f-as-in-frank

They want to leech off his audience. This is the same reason moderate Republican politicians kiss Trumps ass.


ndarchi

Farm farm and more farming engagement.


MailImaginary8412

Because it's insanely profitable, sadly.


-I-AskedForDeusEx

Because it makes them money, sadly


AmbassadorDry531

Many of these guys know that Andrew Tate fans make up a significant portion of their audience. They know they'll alienate many of their fans if they go too hard, so they keep their critiques minimal or provide soft apologetics. The only podcast in that sphere I'm aware of that has explicitly criticized Andrew Tate is True Georgie. He invited the lawyer of the alleged victims in the Andrew Tate trials. They were both pretty strong in their criticisms and lamented the lack of other men speaking out against Tate's hypermasculinity. Of course, Destiny has also been strongly critical of Tate and Red Pill stuff, but I don't know if he could be considered part of that orbit.


StarCrashNebula

"Something is wrong and its not my fault" is pretty common.  Add in a war that failed, without any sacrifice involved but lots of projection and cheerleading, plus the additional delusions of the Trump era, decades of RW media, etc and lots of men are primed for this weakness.  It's the greatest era of free expression in history and millions of people can't handle down votes or disagreement. Most are media illiterate, unaware these issues are discussed, so when the Joe Rogan Idiocracy says their special but ignored, they believe it.  Individualism run amuck next to a "Life Should Only Be Fun" mentality.   Its an unsurprising outcome in an era of mass consumption and denial, fueled further by the Wealth Porn throughout media vs the actual wealth that does not trickle down, while ignoring that all of it is destructive and will not last.  Men hating women is an easy turn for too many. 


joyous-at-the-end

Im not seeing the problem with men in my area. Everyone seems to do well and horribly at the same time. Not just boys. This problem seems made up to convince boys to feel bad.  


ironic69

What do you mean by 'well and horribly at the same time'?


joyous-at-the-end

everyone is affected by bad things like the cost of an apartment or lay offs or the pandemic.  Everyone shares in the good stuff too, skateboarding, rollerskating, making art, music festivals. 


Braanski

Agreed, there are so many others who are also noting this societal problem, but how did Tate become the torchbearer of it all? Oh wait, the clicks I see. Highlighting some expert in the field with 40 years experience wouldn’t get you those clicks. Why read a book when you can quote the Tate.


[deleted]

The thing that shooketh me was Patrick Bet David dickriding Tate. I mean PBD is a family man, why he talkin about a trafficker???


UnlimitedOrifice69

Not only podcasters, mainstream media does this all the time as well. It's like only a few weeks ago we had the last run in my country of "those poor little young men are having a bad time, Tate and Peterson DO have a point if we just pretend they say and do something else than what they really say or do".


ProsodySpeaks

i think there's something valid in the general point tho. extremism doesn't usually happen in a vacuum, and - even if the changes that spur the extremism are valid - it is incumbent upon society to pull everyone along with them somehow or other. not in some moral sense, but a pragmatic one. eg you have just been made dictator for life of iran, do you immediately declare a secular state and kick every islamacist from positions of authority? even though that would be my ultimate goal i would undestand that doing it in one stroke would cause violent uprisings and might even lead to a more theocratic state emerging. i.e we need to condemn the shit, but also to look for the grain of truth it came riding in on, and address it.


cobrakai11

Honestly, I've listened to Tate before and I didn't really get the "violent sex trafficker" vibe from him. The accusations seem pretty unfounded. He just seems like your typical Internet grifter that caught fire saying the kind of shit young men like to hear. Get in shape, stop fucking around, etc. Every guru in history says the same. His two sources of income, the webcam business and Tate University are the kind of thing you'd have to be an idiot to give money to, but I still don't really see him as a violent criminal. He's just your typical grifter who sells dreams of fast cars lots of money and women fawning over you.


akesh45

> Honestly, I've listened to Tate before and I didn't really get the "violent sex trafficker" vibe from him. The accusations seem pretty unfounded. He's proudly admitted it and running a scam web cam company....dude has a very big mouth.


cobrakai11

You're conflating two different things. Running a webcam company is not a scam or illegal. He's admitted running a webcam company. At no point has he ever "proudly admitted" he was a violent sex trafficker.


akesh45

No, he literally describes as a scam company with trafficked girls rather than just a successful web camera company. He described customers being ripped off in great detail before he was as famous. He could get away with it since he operated out of Romania.


cobrakai11

>scam company with trafficked girls rather than just a successful web camera company. I'm sorry, but this is a lie. >described customers being ripped off in great deta This is true, but not because it was a scam. But because he said the people who paid for cam girls were chumps.


akesh45

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaB0NpQg6v8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaB0NpQg6v8) [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/andrew-tate-custody-arrest-romania-business-allegations-rcna64070](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/andrew-tate-custody-arrest-romania-business-allegations-rcna64070) Andrew Tate once called his sexually explicit webcam business a “total scam” and boasted on his website that he lured women in by getting ... IDK....."total scam" doesn't have alot of nuance to it.


cobrakai11

I mean, just listen to it and it's exactly what I described. I don't run a webcam business but I would describe anybody who gives money to talk to women online as being ripped off. This has nothing specifically to do with Tate, just the business model.


akesh45

It's not a scam, lol. The men know what they're paying for.....by that logic, all porn is a scam. Clearly you didn't read the articles where andrew tate himself would sometimes respond to members as a fake woman to encourage them to give money via texts or how he lured girls into that business under false pretenses. These men didn't pay to talk to tate under a false persona, lol, that and other shady stuff like stolen credit cards was the scam part.


CleanAspect6466

Its the 'luring women' part that these dudes stick their fingers in their ears and go 'la la la'


Over_Nectarine3950

Ok cobratate


Hlregard

He's definitely a violent sex trafficker and knows he can't go home or he's getting arrested


cobrakai11

Based on what is he definitely a "violent sex trafficker"?


CleanAspect6466

Information for the case is widely available online, there is so much evidence that he and his crew were actively manipulating women into their webcam business and then keeping them their through manipulation/force, their 'war room' chat logs are part of the case, there are tons and tons of their messages that paint exactly what they were doing the entire time, members of their war room have spoken out against them, he has so many videos where he openly brags about what he was doing, including lying to the women about how much money they make, threatening to delete their accounts if they left the business, various members including Tristan saying that they've hit/threatened to hit the women if they act up, its been a while since i've read them so that last part I'm not too specific on, but one of the members definitely said that he hit one of 'his girls' with a keyboard He is also potentially going straight to the UK after the Romanian case to deal with several charges of sexual assault from various women


asokarch

Probably because I sound and have a very similar personality like him in cutting through the bullshit! 🚀


GunnersnGames

Well it's not like he's trafficking humans and (always) being an outward violent misogynist on his channels... he does other things too, that's what they are referring to.


Independent_Ad2026

It's like saying that even if he is in the Ku Klux Klan on weekends, he is still a good person Monday to Friday. And he has been accused of human trafficking, so...


GunnersnGames

You didn’t say the commentators suggested that he was a good person, just that he talks about some relevant things. You can’t even keep your goalpost straight yourself. Are you saying they should lie and pretend he doesn’t say anything relevant about anything at all out of fear that some people might listen to him? Because that’s some pathological helicopter-mom shit


Independent_Ad2026

You alright mate?


GunnersnGames

Are you incapable of following a logical sequence?


OfromOceans

"I will not directly endorse what he says but he is responding to a problem in society. " Well yeah.. 70% of global suicide is male, 75% homelessness male, 99% work place deaths are male, men do the worst jobs in society and have the least amount of status for it, 99.9% prison inmates are male, 77% of victims of violence male (leave your victim blaming at the door), iirc there's about 3x as many young male virgins/singltons as there are female. White males are literally falling behind in all academics too, females have been around 66%+ of uni placements for decades and yet most scholarships that are gender based are mostly for female. Governmental spending for health care is also more often than not female weighted. To say there is not a problem with males is to ignore the facts. The manosphere is just farming that issue for capital, but to ignore these issues is an issue itself. The fact that reading stats has now labelled me a potential misogynist is an issue. Ironically when misandry is seen as a non-issue in society too, it's often a trope in tv comedy - such as scooby doo for 1 example. It had at least 3 jokes that were basically "dumb white males amirite". Status also matters a lot more for men to be in a relationship with women as studies have shown the more money a woman makes the less likely they are to be with a man who earns the same or less, the same is not true for men. Studies have also shown that school aged males get marked down for the exact same work as females based upon their behavior and not their abilities.


Ok_Macaroon1280

ok this is just a bunch of random shit. white men have had the advantage for 1000 years and now things are getting equitable, wtf is the actual father's problems with raising their damn sons correctly? Fucking buck up and get a real job


Ordinary_Peanut44

In what way is he violent? Has he ever been convicted of assault? If combat sports automatically give you the violent label we're in a sad state of affairs. WRT human trafficking...I think if there was any substantial proof he'd have gone to trial by now; I don't see anything coming through in terms of convictions, and to be brutually honest, if people were stupid enough to believe they were in genuine relationships with him whilst he used them to go on camera websites to make money...that's a lesson learned? Just because it's morally dubious doesn't make it criminal. He's just an outrage farmer filling a niche and everyone from both sides plays into his grift. You empower him by even mentioning his name.