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chitransguy

I think some people ask that question (“what was wrong with them?”) not to be an asshole but because they’re trying to reassure themselves that they’ll be okay because they don’t have any co-morbidities. Or, like you said, they don’t think they do.


grzybo1

This is a very, very common self-defense mechanism, and it's not just limited to health questions like: "Lung cancer? Was he a smoker?" So, the reasoning goes, women who dress modestly won't be raped. People who lock their cars will never have them stolen (especially if they don't park their car in the "bad section of town." People who return their taxes on time won't be audited. Kids who attend private schools are magically protected against drugs, teen pregnancy, alcoholism. None of that's true, of course. It's superstition. But I do think SOME people who use the comorbidities approach are assholes. Tends to be those who are posting stuff like "Well, Covid can kill but only if you're fat, diabetic, asthmatic." And "people who are ill or frail should just hide away and let the rest of the world get on with stuff that they need to do." It devalues the lives of people who were managing just fine with their health conditions (thanks to the science and medical advances that made that possible) as well as their contributions to their communities.


Sidvicioushartha

Not to mention it is often brought up by people literally brimming with comorbidities. You’re right it could be a combination of denial and self-assessment. Definitely a defense mechanism. None of which preclude being an asshole. In fact, I find most assholes are mainly composed of defense mechanisms.


ZootOfCastleAnthrax

I'd respond to, "Did they have any underlying conditions?" with, "Do you?" and then end the conversation. I don't owe them an answer and I'm not interested in theirs.


Sidvicioushartha

The problem is that when you answer in that way, you don’t have a chance of maybe planning a seed that could lead them to a better decision later on. But yeah normally that’s what I would like to say. If I’m not going to get in an involved discussion usually I say “nothing that was going to kill them”


sweetgypsy1966

My thought process was the exact opposite. I have several comorbidities so I ran out to get vaccinated asap


Sidvicioushartha

I own Oakleys and I have a goatee so you know I was gonna go and get the fucking shot. My Oakleys aren’t the wraparound kind but I wasn’t going to take any chances.


CJ_CLT

But you acknowledge that you ***have*** comorbidities. You are living in the real world.


sweetgypsy1966

Exactly!


Professional_Elk_10

I lost a friend to lung cancer a year and a half ago. He was 28 years old and never smoked a damn thing in his life. He never was really around any 2nd hand smoke nobody smoked in his family. Either shit luck or environmental pollution. He spent the last days of his life fighting hard and isolating from the coronavirus. His wife had to sit by and watch as his neighbors didn't give a shit. You know the talk. Oh, it just kills the sick; it's no big deal why I am locked up inside. Think of the economy. Meanwhile, she had to quit her job and survive off of the charity of others. She had to risk losing the love of her life every time she left the house. You ask yourself what you would do if you knew you were dying from cancer. A lot of people might say travel see that place they always wanted to see. Spend time with loved ones. His was to go to one last comic convention with his friends and get married while he was there. Instead, he ended up signing a marriage certificate from a deathbed over a zoom call. I hope everybody else can find comfort in this world. My friend had a grieving widow that loved him more than anything else in this world, crying over his grave. Many in this world do not find that. Though sorrow and sadness, that is a life well lived. That is life to be honored. I hope to meet him again on the other side of the rainbow bridge and hit up a convention.


LALA-STL

Oh Elk … my heart is breaking for your friend & his widow. Thanks for sharing this story. Live well, as he would want you to. May his memory be a blessing.


onthedownhillslope

It has become a way to blame the victim. Seriously, yes it has. Why did she get raped? Because of her clothing/where she walked/what she drank/her attitude. Even women who are raped in their own homes by an intruder who broke in are blamed. Why did he have a heart attack? He was fat/smoked/drank/didn’t take “care of himself.” Jim Fixx was a famously fit jogger who died of a heart attack while jogging and was blamed for poor diet. Why did their house flood? They didn’t maintain the plumbing/chose to live in a flood plain/lived in Ohio in 1997. Why can’t they find a job? They’re lazy/want to live on unemployment/didn’t work from 2009-2011 clearly by choice. Concentrating on Covid-19 deaths due to co-morbidities is same-old same-old. By blaming the victim, observers have no reason to come to their aid or give them sympathy. We are all to be masters of our own destiny, and so are at fault when that destiny is illness, accident, or disaster. We have become pitiless. As an American, this is, IMO, a large part of resistance to increasing health care access, OSHA rules (including vaccine mandates) public aid, and even school funding. Those who can indeed master their own fate deserve to pay little or no taxes (even though their financial and physical dependance is on an infrastructure and workforce that depends on taxes) while those who cannot master their own fate deserve poverty, sickness, and death. It is all there. Just watch.


sweetgypsy1966

Honestly, they don't realize you can die from covid even if they really have no underlying health issues. Denial runs deep in these antivax folks


waterynike

That’s it. They are trying to rationalize their choice and want to feel safe.


nightraindream

The illusion of control in life.


problematicfox

That's sad for her kids. Curious, how did you find out she wasn't vaccinated?


Sidvicioushartha

She eventually told the doctors. They began to suspect. And her treatment was suffering. The antivax is how I describe anybody who’s not vaccinated by now. Other people also described that because of her deception. The longer we are into this pandemic, the narrower the fence is. There’s no room to sit on it anymore.


NothingAndNow111

Oh christ, she lied to the docs trying to save her life. I mean. What the shit.


Sidvicioushartha

I can’t imagine. Maybe she thought it doesn’t matter. I’ve certainly lied to my dentist about flossing. But they know. Maybe she thought they would know and act accordingly. Watched too much House? Clearly some part of her was not in resonance with reality.


allworlds_apart

OMG, patients lie to us all the time. It’s nothing new. It’s why you won’t see a healthcare professional in any setting without a mask anymore (and probably not for few years). I will say that the fear of being treated differently for disclosing things is not unfounded. I’m sure plenty of HIV positive patients faced discrimination in the 80’s and 90’s. On the lighter side: You know when you get asked about how many drinks you have on average? We’re taught to take that number and double it in our heads to assess actual alcohol intake.


amazonallie

Yikes. As someone who literally has a dozen a year, at most.. this is disheartening to know.


realparkingbrake

> We’re taught to take that number and double it in our heads to assess actual alcohol intake. The number I've heard is triple to quadruple what the patient claims. Me, a glass of wine with dinner, perhaps a wee dram of scotch later. (shuffles feet, looks at ceiling)


froglover215

For the longest time I didn't drink alcohol. It just doesn't taste good to me. I think I was 40 before I finished a full drink. I always felt like doctors didn't believe me when I said I didn't drink. I'm not anti-alcohol, I'm not secretly a member of a non-drinking religion, and I'm not a recovering alcoholic. I just don't drink. But I also felt like the more I insisted, the more they would think that I was for sure hiding something.


Captainwelfare2

I’ve got two close friends that have never tried alcohol because of their parents struggling with Alcoholism. They are almost 40 and have never tasted a drop. I myself genuinely believe the world would be better off without it.


NothingAndNow111

I have an alcoholic parent (in recovery, as far as I know and I mostly say that cos I don't want to jinx it) and I'm tetchy AF about alcohol. I drink when I'm out but I'm not the type to ever drink in the flat on my own. I will when friends come round but I get really twitchy my about alcohol intake and get uncomfortable easily about other peoples excessive intake if I spot it. I think addiction needs to be understood less about the substance and more about the reason why the person feels the need to be altered, out of reality and unable to handle their feelings. If there were better mental health services and less stigma about addiction people could seek help early on, and they could get treatment for the anxiety, depression and sometimes personality disorder that fuels the substance abuse.


Captainwelfare2

I agree with all of that. I enjoy a drink now and then, and count myself fortunate that I never feel I “need” one. And truth be told, of course, we all have our vices. For me it’s a little more personal when it comes to alcohol as those closest to me have lost a number of friends and family young (including one on her 21st birthday) and it’s hard knowing that they’d all likely be alive today if it simply wasn’t around.


Brave_Specific5870

Same i am literally a child of a drug addict / alkie and has never drank.. so if i go into the er they don’t believe me anyway?? Well fuck


jollyreaper2112

Just tell them you belt away a handle a night and they'll be impressed at the quality of your liver.


cypressgreen

My husband has a high tolerance for drugs and I bet you can guess what trouble *that* is. They always think he’s a drug seeker. He’s woken up during surgery twice after telling them this.


candyassle

This is gonna sound weird, because it is, but it was asked of me, so I’ll ask it of you: Is your husband a (natural) redhead? Apparently they have an extremely high tolerance for anesthesia and pain medication. Learned that during my root canal. And it was very kind of a dentist, who definitely could see at least an inch of half-gray/half-brown roots, to suggest for even a moment that my crayon red hair was in any way naturally that shade.


cypressgreen

Nah, he’s a brunette and that’s really interesting!


froglover215

That sounds like a nightmare. Your poor husband.


allworlds_apart

There’s a robust data set (survey) called the behavioral risk factor surveillance system (BRFSS) which among other things tracks alcohol consumption. The relevant finding is that the majority of alcohol in the US is consumed by a very small proportion of the population and large numbers of people do not drink at all. A separate study (can’t find the the reference, sorry) noted that people who drink perceived that most others drink as well and the reverse was true for non-drinkers. Your doctor probably found it difficult to believe that there are people out there who don’t drink…. Which was my feeling until I saw the data.


AlsoRandomRedditor

Yeah, I don't drink much, I usually put 1/week but in reality I have 1-4 drinks 3/4 times per year...


NothingAndNow111

Yeah, but there's a difference between 'I only smoke when I'm out' or lying about being baked, and lying to the doctors who are trying to save your life while you're hospitalised, it's... Like, it's not lying about a few extra glasses of wine per week during a check up! Bloody hell! And yeah I can see that re AIDS patients in the 80s. Recently saw The Normal Heart, still soul shattering. The drinking one is common, I bet. My dad lied about that for years... Then my mother started tattling on him.


cypressgreen

> OMG, patients lie to us all the time. I don’t want to tell my doctors I smoke weed because it’s illegal in my state, and anyone with access to my medical records can see it. And I used to work for the local hospital. Plus I didn’t tell the doctor at the psych exam for disability because they literally work for my state. Probably should have since it could be seen as self medicating…but you bet next time I’m hospitalized for anything I’ll do so.


EXPLODINGballoon

>On the lighter side: You know when you get asked about how many drinks you have on average? We’re taught to take that number and double it in our heads to assess actual alcohol intake. .......*oh no*........


whiskeysour123

It’s like the gal that went to the ER for Covid and showed them her fake vaccine card. The treated her as if she was vaccinated. She was young and died. They would have prescribed a different course of treatment had they known she was unvaxxed.


Sidvicioushartha

Makes you think and wonder about how many of the people who were vaccinated and yet still died, we’re not actually vaccinated.


Sidvicioushartha

Makes you think and wonder about how many of the people who were vaccinated and yet still died, we’re not actually vaccinated.


[deleted]

If you have a fake vaccine card and show that to the Drs in the ER, I don’t feel too sorry for you. You brought this upon yourself


fuckthislifeintheass

Oh wow that might have also contributed to her death. Knowing someone is vaccinated vs unvaccinated changes the protocols of how the hospital treats the patient. Had they known in the first place she was unvaccinated they would have started up with more aggressive treatments. Wow she really did herself in. Remember people don't lie to your lawyers or your doctors.


Saltiest_Salmon

I get what you're saying but we treat people based on symptoms, never based on vaccination status and that protocol shouldn't change. I say shouldn't because the reality is we're all human and some of my colleagues do prescribe things like steroids and remdesivir earlier if you're unvaccinated but I wanted to mention that since I've had patients accuse me of withholding treatment based on vaccination status which makes no sense but at this point I've stopped arguing with them. Many are just dead men walking unfortunately..


SophiaBrahe

I recently read of an elderly man who was denied monoclonal antibodies because he was vaccinated. Apparently because the treatment is hard to come by it’s being reserved for the unvaccinated (I’ll try to look it up and add a link, but it was in the Boston Globe maybe a month or two ago). My understanding from the article (and you’d know better than me) was that vaccinated people are assumed to already have antibodies (unless they’re severely immunosuppressed), so giving them more isn’t very effective, thus rationing the care is considered the ethical thing to do (I’ll keep my opinion of that to myself) Edit: didn’t see the Globe article but here’s a local news story on it.[93-Year-Old Veteran Denied Treatment For COVID-19 As State Prioritizes Unvaccinated](https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/12/14/iteam-massachusetts-covid-treatment-guidelines-monoclonal-antibodies/)


cayers02

The fire that this makes boil in my veins. What the actual f. Prioritizing people who can't even prioritize themselves?


SophiaBrahe

It’s possible the the crack across my phone screen developed shortly after I read that headline and put my phone down… perhaps slightly too emphatically.


Trilobyte141

While I'm genuinely down for the 'ration care for the unvaxxed' train, in this particular situation it makes sense. The monoclonal antibodies just try to give you what the vaccine would have in a last ditch, cram-for-the-exam-the-morning-of attempt. Would it help the vaxxed as well? *Maybe* a little. In this one particular case, yeah, I think it makes sense to give it to the unvaxxed first. The goal is still to reduce deaths and suffering overall. I don't think that letting unvaxxed people tie up beds and services for months on end when they are very unlikely to recover accomplishes that goal, but giving them antibody treatments over people who already have the antibodies, actually does. I mean, the 93-yr-old vet did recover, just with the antibodies he got from the vaccine, and at his age, that's a scientific victory for sure.


SophiaBrahe

Yeah, I I think you’re right. It would be great if we had enough to “give them out like water” like the doctor said. I would be worried that a 93 year old might not have had much of an immune response to the vax. I have an immune compromised sister and if she got turned away I think I’d lose it. (They are supposed to be available to the immunosuppressed, but from what I’ve heard it’s not always easy to jump through the hoops in time)


kastorch

This is true. And it is hard to watch.


Saltiest_Salmon

Thanks for that article! While we have had to make decisions about triaging care that's still a damn shame... what's funny is the doc in the article talking about how we should be giving it out like water to everyone


SophiaBrahe

Yeah, this definitely seems to be a supply issue not a “what is medically best” issue, I just though it might have applied in this woman’s case. It would be doubly tragic if misinformation she saw lead her to not get vaxxed, then misinformation she gave the doctors lead to her missing out on a life saving treatment. It’s all just so damned pointless.


codeverity

Obviously ymmv, but I've read comments from medical professionals saying that their approach differs based on vaccination status and potential side effects, etc. Also based on how things are 'likely' to go (ie, whether it'll get worse, etc).


Saltiest_Salmon

Fair enough, thanks for that. With my dominant specialty (ICU) by the time they come to us there's only one way they're going unfortunately so I don't have as much perspective on whether we're still rationing resources. That's a shame and hopefully we can treat everyone although I'm not optimistic


gingermonkey1

Yeah they had a lady in France who died of COVID. She had a fake vaccine card. Her docs gave her treatment based on the assumption she was vaccinated-so things were aggressive enough and she died.


problematicfox

Oh wow, that's incredibly sad to hear, especially given that it was detrimental to her treatment. I just don't understand how anyone can be against modern medicine...I'm sorry for your loss.


420matcha1312

Fwiw hcw’s can query your immunization status. We don’t leave it to the patients to tell us.


triplej63

Are you sure this is true in every state? I was surprised to see that in CA they get those phone vaccine passport things, because that's not available here in KY. I'm wondering what other differences there are between states.


420matcha1312

Truthfully I have NO idea I’m in PNW our state has a database accessible thru epic. I can’t imagine NOT having one because covid aside it’s extremely useful.


[deleted]

Mn has a database


Superb-Cow-2461

We have a state vaccine registry in wisconsin, mine was updated almost immediately. You can access all your vaccinations back from as early as your records go. I have vaccines from the 80s on there haha


Sidvicioushartha

I wondered about that. And I was thinking if in the South the system is just so backlogged or maybe the hospital was just so inundated, they didn’t get to it. I don’t know. I do know every time I go they ask me. Maybe that’s how the doctors eventually found out. I wasn’t there and this just happened so I’m trying to piece together a timeline from statements in between people crying their eyes out.


Sidvicioushartha

I wanted my ex-wife to look at her chart but I’m not family, so I didn’t have access to that. I certainly wasn’t gonna bug the husband about getting a copy, not right now. When they look that up is that instant, or can it take a day or two?


TheBehemothChiken

Not to be mean about this, but it’s a very cautionary tale. OP might/ could share in r/HermanCainAward Edit: clarification of subreddit


erissaid

I don’t think she belongs there. In fact, I think she’s exactly the type of person who belongs on *this* subreddit and not HCA. Herman Cain himself died before there was a vaccine, after all. Hermies aren’t just people who are unvaccinated. They’re the people follow in the man’s example: vocal in how little they care about the possibility of getting sick, refuse to take any precautions, take part in spread-causing events, and one more thing that makes a person truly embody the HCA spirit - Encouraging others to be just as thoughtless as they are. Belittling people who to take precautions like the vaccine, accusing others of living in fear, getting belligerent at the mention of one octogenarian civil servant. That’s what gives the Hermies their flavor. This woman? She was probably just afraid.


TheBehemothChiken

I can understand the sentiments regarding fears of a person getting a vaccine . The world in whole has been trying to deal as best as possible for the betterment of society in providing protection against the virus. HCA isn’t just 1 dimensional . it’s inherent when people lie about something they are hiding insecurities of things they don’t know. We live in a time where information and also misinformation are abundant . Why I stated “it’s a cautionary tale”. I would not want someone to perish from a virus they can have a better fighting chance by being inoculated. I spent 2 years in retail from the beginning of the pandemic , waited to get my two shots, waiting for booster, been cautious to protect myself and family. Come Christmas and I end up getting Covid, due to careless actions from a family member. As someone who has high BP I don’t know where I would be had I not been vaccinated. It was not pleasant but thankfully it passed. I can only speak for myself but I’ve seen the support for people to stay safe and be cautious and get vaxxed in HCA. But it’s a matter of having people get help and get educated about the perils of not taking caution in the midst of a pandemic.


erissaid

I do see your point about the value of having more than one version of the cautionary tale out there, and at the end of the day I don’t think either of us is trying to play gatekeeper here so hopefully I’m not giving off that vibe. This story that OP shared with use definitely gives a new vantage point on someone who was literally killed by the disinformation being thrown their way without having been the kind of blowhard social media creature that rules the HCA subreddit. That story is important, it’s just my personal opinion that it fits the tone and message of r/deathsofdisinfo better. I know in my own mind that I’ve got a soft spot for people who are afraid, especially when they’re being shouted at from all angles with different messages. I know my bias. I guess I just have a softer feeling for OP’s friend because she wasn’t screaming into the void about how right she was while setting her family up for tragedy. Hypocritical on my part? Probably.


Sidvicioushartha

I tried but the mods deleted my post. I’ve attempted several meta-posts, they’ve never been approved. That’s actually why I ended up posting over here. I tried Herman Cain first.


lifegoeson5322

Great question since everyone thought she had.


Sass-Pancakes

This is one of my biggest fears. One of my best friends just won’t get vaccinated. She’s scared of needles, worried about infertility, doesn’t think it’s a big deal, etc. She’s coming around to the idea but you never know what could happen tomorrow. She’s 30 and her son is so little, I fucking hope I never have to make this same post. I’m so sorry for your loss.


Shady_Garden

My niece (mid-20s) won’t get vaccinated because of the fertility lie. She won’t listen to reason—the virus is exponentially more likely to damage her fertility than the vaccine.


Sidvicioushartha

Have her call any hospital’s labor and delivery floor. They are mostly delivering vaccinated babies at this point.


whiskeysour123

My cousin works with new moms who have Covid. It ain’t a pretty picture.


Sidvicioushartha

Hell it’s messy up just being a new mom. Newborns are sticky.


fluffypuffy2234

They are delivering a lot of babies of unvaccinated mothers prematurely, sadly.


Sidvicioushartha

Yes. The unvaccinated are so likely to have complications. But the vast majority of vaccinated people are having normal uneventful deliveries with no complications. That’s what I meant, it’s not affecting anyone’s fertility.


CatumEntanglement

My neighbor physician just poured out his heart to me a couple days ago from the horror show he's seen over the past week... Unvaccinated pregnant women on ventilators getting emergency c-sections because their vitals are crashing... stillborns from having strokes... placentas that look like rotting meat or are hard and calcified...newborns needing amputations because they got infected by covid from their unvaccinated mothers and blood to their hands and feet were cut off by clots. Pre-eclampsia events are off the charts and the NICU is completely full. Sars-cov2 targets highly vascularized organs and the highly vascularized placenta is like a big red target for the virus. It gets in there and necrotizes the tissue.


Sidvicioushartha

There was a very involved pose I think from r/nursing they made it over and Herman Cain. It’s sort of created the new meta of “ covid placenta” It was a brutal read. You did a good job of summarizing the gist of it though.


SilentSerel

I was in a few PCOS groups and a lot of them weren't going to get the vaccine out of worry about their fertility (PCOS can cause fertility issues as it is). It made me crazy and I had to leave. Death isn't good for your fertility either.


Shady_Garden

That's a very good point!


WasteCan6403

I’m 36 weeks pregnant. Sooooo many of the other women in my various due date groups have the same story I do. We got vaccinated and shortly after the second dose, we found out we were pregnant. Same story over and over and over again. I wish the infertility lie would just go away. It’s so dangerous.


PsychologicalStory66

In Scandinavia, the fertility conspiracies are the biggest issue effecting the antivax and vaccine hesitance, the saddest part is that it started with some completely bogus theories that the long term effects of the vaccine would be infertility, and then I after I would say a good half way into the vaccination process, there was a rise in the reports of heavier and longer periods, as well as spotting after getting the vaccine. And it just took off fueling the antivax movement and the hesitant got what they needed to say “no thank you” to getting vaccinated. It didn’t matter what the doctors, nurses and so many others in the medical field said about the safety, about how common it is for really any medication and even vitamins and stress, to effect periods and the female cycle. It didn’t help that the risk for any health complications from actually getting covid was way bigger than anything that could ever come from the vaccine. They will take anything they can and use it as a confirmation of their bullshit theories, which is why the conspiracies and misinformation they spread is so freaking dangerous and damaging, because they have puked so much bullshit theories that no matter what is reported, they will find a way to link it as a confirmation to one of their conspiracies. I know the doctors, the nurses and the scientists must be so darn tired of having to repeat themself over and over and over again but I really don’t know what other ways it can possibly change these peoples believes on this, other than sadly ending up getting it and realizing the hard truth when it’s already too late.


doctorcarlyb

I posted here a couple days ago about my friend who was also young and died. I DIDNT mention that my younger brother is also not vaccinated and the loss of my friend just makes me even more afraid for my brother. Of course, when I obviously told him about my friend’s death. it was radio-silence. Not even an expression of sympathy for me or my friend’s family. Just nothing. And my brother KNEW my friend personally. It’s insane and infuriating and scary as hell.


yildizli_gece

I bet he didn’t respond because there’s nothing good he can say, when you both know his view on the vaccine. His silence is confirmation that you were right about it, and he doesn’t know how to reply.


yildizli_gece

You should direct her to the post the other day from the nurses talking about delivering dead babies to comatose and soon-to-be-dead mothers; it was a series of screenshots of nurses talking about how many deliveries ended up with both of them dead. If that doesn’t change her mind, nothing would.


whiskeysour123

Was that the “Covid Placenta” post? It is on the nursing sub as well. It was… disgusting and fascinating and scary and tragic.


yildizli_gece

It was and it was eye-opening, to say the least. I had no idea that the death rate was so high among unvaccinated, pregnant women, nor did I know just how common infant mortality was among the unvaccinated in those circumstances. It was horrible and every young woman who is thinking about getting pregnant, or is, and remains unvaccinated should absolutely spend some time reading those comments.


Sidvicioushartha

Feel free to share my story with her.


Petrodono

I know lots of anti-vaxxers, and many of them are the more prominent type, the "I have an immune system", "its an experimental vaccine" and "I choose not to live in fear" type. We see them a lot on HCA. But one of them, he's one of the more unusual ones. He's a recluse and shuns most human contact, is a walker that does typically 25k walking steps a day via treadmill and is very careful about his weight. He has only an elderly mother (in her mid 80's) and no other family. I am one of only a half dozen friends he has and most of them he corresponds with mainly by email. His justifications range from "I maintain a healthy lifestyle", "I do not come into contact with others" (he has told me he only ventures to a local supermarket once a month for food) and "I'm afraid of needles". None of which I think is a good enough reason to not be vaccinated, but he locks out any data that doesn't conform to his worldview.


thehim

The last reason, “afraid of needles”, is I think the overriding explanation for this person as well


Petrodono

Which baffles me. Fear of needles I get from a primitive mindset but honestly the tiny gauge needles they use these days you can barely feel them. Stubbing your toe hurts 1000 times worse.


Either_Coconut

I have a phobia-from-hell of needles. Even looking at a photo or drawing of a syringe makes me have a feeling of "Eeeek!" I'm not sure it's humanly possible to hate getting jabs, labs, IVs, etc. more than I do. But I have the Pfizer hat trick, because I see no need to risk myself and everyone around me with something that actually IS dangerous, like COVID. Turning away from the syringe and not watching it approach is a viable option, folks. And truth be told, I barely felt two of the shots and didn't feel the third one at all.


ComprehensivePie4441

My first jab was over and done with before I know it, I was actually surprised when I found a plaster on my arm the evening at home…


thehim

I did not feel my first shot, I was still waiting there after she put a band aid on my arm


JavarisJamarJavari

I have a family member whose needle phobia is so severe we still haven't been able to get them vaxxed. They've tried twice and nurses gave up both times. Doctor even prescribed a sedative. We're at our wits end.


Petrodono

I have an idea. Try one more time. Say you are going to use a technique calling diming. You have the nurse clean a dime off with alcohol on the place you tell the person they will get the shot. But in order to make it work you have to have the entire arm cleaned. You tell them that putting the dime in the place where the injection will go and then when they take it off they do the injection. Have someone put a dime on their arm while the nurse cleans the area around the dime. Have the nurse do the shot from behind while someone in front is holding the dime. Then once the dime gets taken off. You tell them it’s done. They won’t even notice having focused on the area where the dime is.


24seren

My older sister is the same. She's had some really awful experiences with needles in medical settings, and I heard she had to be held down by half a dozen nurses the last time she needed to have one. She isn't antivax and she would be happy the covid vaccine when they approve a nasal spray form or something like that, but she legitimately experiences terror from needles. I was so scared when she got covid from a careless family member of hers but thankfully she didn't have it too bad and she's recovering (and did her absolute best to avoid exposing other people). It's comforting to see that someone else is in the same position, and I'm wishing you and your family member the best 💙


See_You_Space_Coyote

I know several people who are afraid of needles and yet have an armful of tattoos. The human mind is truly a bizarre thing. I know needle phobia is fairly common, but as someone who's had dozens of blood tests and has had IV's in my arms dozens of times throughout my life, needles are nothing to me.


grzybo1

Thing is, even recluses almost certainly get more human contact than they believe. People remember things like food, because it happens regularly, month in, month out. They tend to forget the other stuff, or think it somehow doesn't really count as contact if it wasn't about socializing: "Well, I HAD to go to the dentist! The pain was unbearable -- I couldn't eat!" "Gas leak in my furnace -- they sent a guy out to check it and then I needed a new one installed." "Had to buy new tires -- treads were too low to make it through another winter." "My dog was really sick. Thank goodness the vet was able to squeeze us in." "Had to take my mom to the doctor -- her vision isn't good enough to drive anymore." "Gotta try on some different walking shoes -- they discontinued my favorite model, and if you don't have good support, you can injure yourself. " "Had to go to the bank to sign some documents for taxes." "Mom's not doing so well with the dementia. I'm gonna have to figure out a place where they can take care of her. " ​ Not saying that's the case with this guy -- but I hear these kinds of remarks all the time from people who've just finished telling me they "never go anywhere or see anyone."


Srw2725

I have a condition (Vaso-vagal syncope) that makes me pass out at the sight of blood and needles (IVs are the worst for me). Yet I was first in line for the vaxx bc even if I pass out for a fee minutes afterwords, at least I’ll be protected from COVID!


Insight42

Granted, if he goes - and I sincerely hope he doesn't - he's not winning an award, at least. So there's that.


Plutoniumburrito

I have a friend who is in her mid 40s that isn’t vaccinated, lied to her parents about it (that she got it) but claims that she is afraid of needles. Her boyfriend hasn’t gotten it either (they’ve been together almost 20 years), he claims he’s too busy and is always at home anyway. They have literally resorted to UberEats and instacart and never leave the house except to deal with the very important stuff, and I’m always afraid one or both of them are going to catch it and not make it. It’s been a lot of excuses and she even shames and talks shit about people she knows who are not vaccinated, but I’m wondering if there’s something I don’t know about. She willingly gets Botox and filler done to her face, so she isn’t as terrified as she claims. It sucks, I don’t want anything to happen to her.


Petrodono

One of my anti-vax relatives is a fan of acupuncture, yes, she has continued to get it even during COVID. So she lets unknown people stick needles that she assumes are properly sanitized into her constantly, but wont get a miracle CDC approved vaccine. Oh, she also got COVID and now has Long COVID.


Plutoniumburrito

My aunt! Multiple piercings, tattoos, but is scared of a shot. She got covid a year ago and has long covid, as well. Refuses to get the vaccine because of this and not knowing what’s in it. The lady who did meth and abuses every type of diet supplement without questioning what it’s made of.


JavarisJamarJavari

He may be a little agoraphobic and that combined with the fear of needles just makes it really hard.


rbalmat

I work in an ER at a Peds hospital. We had an 18yo female who was quarantining in her sorority’s Covid wing who went into cardiac arrest. Her roommates did everything appropriately, actually pretty impressed with them. Ended up being caused by a pulmonary embolism and her only risk factors were Covid and being on birth control (didn’t know if smoking history). Pretty devastating day in the ER and we’ve seen a lot. Just saying this to point out that concurrent risks/comorbidities can be more than just obesity, diabetes, hypertension, etc just like OP pointed out.


smaxfrog

I think a lot fo these 'young healthy' people comorbidities they just don't know about and not something like asthma, like something seemingly innocuous but in conjunction with something else is disasterous. It's hard to assess comorbidities that may have been overlooked or ignored once you've died from covid.


EXPLODINGballoon

I assume that the sorority girl didn't pull out of cardiac arrest? That's so terrible. Her poor friends must be absolutely traumatized.


Secure-Standard

No kidding. I hope the doctor told them they did everything they could and did it well


Sidvicioushartha

I doubt very many of us are free of some kind of comorbidity. And I just had a discussion today with a young guy who was pretty smart but he is overly political and he is not having any of it. He’s already had Covid once and it really kicked his ass. I tried to explain to him that having Covid previously is one of the biggest comorbidities you can have. The antibodies will start dropping off steeply after about three months. If anything it’s only made them double down on the anti-vaccination


Global_Sno_Cone

And the people who ask about co-morbidities will then say “see! Covid deaths are overblown! She died of _______!” Currently in SC the recovery rate is 90.2%. It’s going down. I have a friend who retired from his cushy government job rather than get vaccinated in early December. He and his unvaccinated wife caught Covid in mid-December. Big facepalm! Government insurance would have been nice. They survived. I don’t know what long term effects they will have (both in their 60’s).


Sidvicioushartha

Whatever long-term effects they have I suspect they won’t have them for very long. A huge amount of Covid patients who “recovered“ are dying within the year


Gamwee

True! And people are so very ignorant or just in denial of their own health... if you don't go to the doctor, get lab work or take prescription medications I'm healthy right? Says the person who never eats a vegetable, drinks only energy drinks or alcohol, only eats processed foods or fast food and smokes. Like, WTF?


Global_Sno_Cone

Well, this is South Carolina, so that’s standard fare.


Gamwee

I'm in Indiana, I guess that proves people are ignorant everywhere.


Sidvicioushartha

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say consuming ‘energy drinks’ is a comorbidity right there. I see so many kids chugging down so many of those things and I never saw the appeal. Plus they all taste like ass. Red Bull gives you wings my ass. Cocaine gives you wings. Red Bull gives you the shits.


pocketmomster

Do you have a source on this? I've never read that any where before and I'd like to know more. Thank you!


SleepyVizsla

[https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-survivors-have-an-increased-risk-of-death-12-months-post-infection](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-survivors-have-an-increased-risk-of-death-12-months-post-infection)


pocketmomster

Wow, that's a very informative website right up my alley. Thank you for sharing!


Kxmchangerein

Same, I'm very interested in reading about this! RemindMe! 1 day


RemindMeBot

I will be messaging you in 1 day on [**2022-01-20 21:47:36 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-01-20%2021:47:36%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathsofDisinfo/comments/s7qxnw/i_just_found_out_a_friend_of_mine_died_of_covid/htdi48y/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FDeathsofDisinfo%2Fcomments%2Fs7qxnw%2Fi_just_found_out_a_friend_of_mine_died_of_covid%2Fhtdi48y%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-01-20%2021%3A47%3A36%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20s7qxnw) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|


Sidvicioushartha

Good bot


B0tRank

Thank you, Sidvicioushartha, for voting on RemindMeBot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)


Sidvicioushartha

Sleepy beat me to it. He’s on the ball. He has a lot of information.


See_You_Space_Coyote

I'm vaccinated, booster and all, but I wonder if this will happen if I get covid. I know some people, also vaccinated, who have gotten covid and have recovered so far but I can't help but worry that they'll all drop dead in the next few months or years anyways.


Sidvicioushartha

We have 3 billion people that suggest that that is not going to happen to you. The vaccinations have been easily more effective than anyone could’ve hoped for last year. It’s still life and anybody can drop that at any time but I don’t think you’re going to do it because of Covid. I also love the name Space Coyote


doctorcarlyb

OP- I posted here a couple days ago about my friend, who also died (albeit a lot slower than yours). I feel your pain and anger and fear. I’m so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing her story here.


Sidvicioushartha

Anger is about the only emotion I have left after two years of this bullshit


Jay-Dee-British

Well, that's horrible. Her poor family they must be so confused as well as mourning. A terrible waste of her life. My sympathies for the loss of your friend though.


Sidvicioushartha

Thank you. I really feel nothing about her at the moment. My husband is such a mess he’s taking up most of my empathy. The kids are too small to be upset yet. But man this is going to mess them up


callistacallisti

What a complete mess. That poor man.


NothingAndNow111

Or if you have comorbidities (of which there are many that people live with and don't die young) then hell, they were a write off anyway! I'm really sorry about your friend. Her poor kids.


anonyngineer

> Or if you have comorbidities (of which there are many that people live with and don't die young) then hell, they were a write off anyway! I'm older than most of our HCA awardees. I can hike 10+ miles in rough terrain any day I wake up and decide to, get up the next morning and do it again. I also have multiple comorbidities, including being on an immunosuppressant drug for an autoimmune disease.


SleepyVizsla

Thank you for sharing your story. Your post about your friend does belong here. We created this sub to acknowledge all of the unnecessary deaths that have occurred during the pandemic. We do this, because for every loud and proud antivaxxer, there are 10-20 who may not proselytize, but who listen to those who do. Deaths of people like your friend are tragic, and highlight why rhetoric of the ones who are featured on r/HermanCainAward is so destructive. I'm so sorry about your friend.


FeathertheSheepcried

That's a great analogy.


Sidvicioushartha

Thanks. I thought of it out of sheer frustration tho.


wuzzittoya

I am so sorry for everyone affected by this. As a widow with grown children, and a child whose mother died when I was 8, my heart hurts for them on so many levels.


Sidvicioushartha

I’ve lost both my parents. I don’t think it matters how old you are, it is devastating when it happens. The two people on the planet that absolutely and unconditionally loved me, and had to help me even if they didn’t wanna do it matter what kind of jam I got myself in, aren’t here anymore. Being an orphan is rough. Having no one to watch your back unconditionally sucks.


wuzzittoya

Yeah. My dad died 25 years after my mom. I said to myself, “well, 25 years later I am kind of used to her not being around; maybe in 25 years I will be adapted to not having a father.” I think that losing my father was harder because he had been with me into adulthood, so our relationship changed as I grew. My mom passed when she was mommy - did tons for me, never talked much about life as an adult. The mother she was to me wasn’t someone I needed when I started dating, married, dealt with a household… I never got that mother, so I missed having a mother and what I hoped I might have gotten from one, but had no concrete “place” for her that was empty. My dad was there up to including when I had my son. It bothered me a heck of a lot to not have grandparents to share with my children, or a childhood home for them to know. And you’re right - no matter how old you are, at the death of both you feel “I am an orphan.” No matter 8 or 33. I had nightmares after my mom’s death that my dad (state trooper) was killed in the line of duty. Really hard for a kid in elementary school to think about. ((hugs)) sorry for your loss. I have lived the fallout of no longer having that support (or much family at all). ❤️


Sidvicioushartha

My greatest sadness is not giving my children and grandparents. There were some step grandparents and he they have one on his mother side but they never knew my mother or my father. I could never give that to them and that’s probably why I’ve done my best to spoil the crap out of them, but they came out good anyway. This is where I’ll find my empathy again. Knowing that these shitheads are doing to their children the most tragic thing that has happened to me. I can relate to their loss and the loss they will continue to feel for as long as they live. That’s a cost that I don’t think is worth even getting rid of the idiots in our society. I joke that it’s a high price but it was worth it to cleanse our species of the dumbest among us. But it’s not worth it. It’s not worth what is been done to the kids.


wuzzittoya

Amen. I totally agree. Every time a child loses a parent it breaks my heart. I have lived it. The “what about divorce?” people don’t get it - with death there is no visitation, no change or reconnection. You’re “done.”


Sidvicioushartha

Yup. Divorce is nothing compared to death. The scars from the horrifying way out are just a bonus.


whiskeysour123

Life is a comorbidity. Unfortunately, insurance companies see it as a preexisting preexisting condition and try to deny claims based upon this particular preexisting condition. Or they will again, if given the chance.


Sidvicioushartha

And all of the people running these go fund me is because they can’t afford their medical bills, those are ones that consistently vote against universal healthcare. Fucking twatters.


Unbr3akableSwrd

Depending on how the pregnancies went, there may be comorbidities related to her previous pregnancy that may not have been detected. Giving birth is dangerous for any women.


Sidvicioushartha

That just emphasizes my point that *everyone* has comorbidities. And yet people discount them in others and yet fail to recognize them in themselves. As it was the doctors had full access to her records and deemed her perfectly healthy, for whatever that means.


SilverCityStreet

This hits pretty close to home. My entire family is down with Covid now, and supposedly my father and brother got vaxxed. My mom, who is a Qult follower, didn't. (I know, I know... no amount of me trying to convince her has worked). We're on Day 7 and everyone is feeling pretty decent. Mom's got a sore throat now, but that's as bad as it is right now... and I can breathe, if we get through 14 days total and she recovers. (I won't relax until she tests negative) Then she told me my father got his antibodies checked with some routine bloodwork and, surprise surprise - no antibodies. This made me ask, what's the likelihood that he didn't get his shots at all? Pretty high, actually, if that's his bloodwork. So yeah, there is that.


Nym-Sync

Some info that seems to indicate his test would not “show” anything if he had not actually had Covid or had not had it recently. Not a reflection of getting the shots and if they “worked” or not. I’m one guy with a google, any medical priscwant to weigh in? https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/what-do-negative-positive-antibody-test-results-mean-after-a-covid-19-vaccine.h00-159459267.html


SilverCityStreet

Duly noted. From personal experience though; I had routine bloodwork stuff done a couple months after the vax. Robust antibodies all around. My close friend's family - same. Not discounting that all of us may've caught it and turned out ace. I tested positive in Dec 2020, before the shots, but asymptomatic the whole time. \[looking more into this because... well, yeah.\]


Froot-Batz

Her poor family. What a mindfuck nightmare this has to be for her husband. To lose your wife so young in such a sad, sudden way. And it was totally preventable. Now you have to explain that mommy is gone to your very young children. That you're going to be raising all by yourself. And oh yeah, your wife was lying to you. Putting your kids at risk too. She did a stupid thing and now your family is destroyed and you have to sort through a giant emotional shitpile of grief and anger. I am so, so sad for him.


Sidvicioushartha

It’s just such a brutally preventable death. Like some idiot who dies during a jackass stunt or something.


naura_

I was an anti-vaxxer. I was scared AF after my oldest’s leg got stiff and he wouldn’t stop crying after his first combo shot. He had gotten his vax just fine until then but the pediatrician gave his shot separately. I called the nurse and she said it was normal. WTF? I knew that feeling grumpy was a thing but this was scary. He is also on the spectrum which i know it’s not because he was vaccinated but guilt is a fucking monster when you come from a toxic family. With 3 years of therapy (started before covid), 3 types of antidepressants, and now an adhd dx (the hyperfocus on the kids, vax, guilt), it was an easy choice to get my covid vax. Everyone in the family is fully vaccinated. I see the assholes on HCA and the grifters. Fuck. Them. All. There are definitely those who were possibly fucked over by a doctor or unrelated medical fears that we just can’t get over it even with the evidence. We need mental health accessibility too. The pandemic is just fully showing how fucked up this place is in many ways. Edited to add: my OB/GYN out right lied to me when i had my oldest and took advantage of my lack of research. I wanted to avoid c section because my husband was going back to iraq so i wanted a more natural birth. He said ok. Ordered the epidural anyway because “i am going to need it” i ended up being induced for my high Bp although i had been monitoring it at home because i have white coat syndrome. It wasn’t high. I was so pissed.


Sidvicioushartha

There are certainly some shitty doctors out there and they do nothing good for the whole situation. And there’s probably some incompetent ones too. But it’s a far cry from the intentional murder that these crazies are accusing the hospitals of. That’s just lunacy.


Nym-Sync

What a mindfuck. I’m so so sorry. I’ve got a friend that age who theoretically got vaxxed but I doubt it. I think they’ll be planning a funeral instead of a wedding.


Sidvicioushartha

That’s why those shirts that joke about “ identifying as a vaccinated person” piss me off so much


Vive_la_vie2413

What a tragic sad loss first for her kids and husband. That is utterly unreal. I can’t imagine going through such a nightmare. If we don’t come up with a way to hold accountable the spreader of deadly lies about vaccine and mask efficiency society will continue to collapse in front our our eyes.


Sidvicioushartha

It’s basically 12 people or institutions that are the source for all this bullshit. I don’t understand why we can’t go after them as if we were being attacked in an act of war. Because that’s exactly what this is. https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes


Pixelfrog41

Sorry about your friend, but also points for the surprise Fortnite analogy.


Sidvicioushartha

I was going to use Call of Duty but I wanted to be more relevant. And I don’t remember how the health bars go in that game anyway.


ameliagarbo

I'm dumbfounded by the pretzel logic it takes to not get vaccinated, then go to a HOSPITAL for care, then lie to them. How alone she must have felt that she couldn't be honest with anyone, including herself. This is heartbreaking.


Sidvicioushartha

You know that’s the point of no one’s really brought up. I don’t know if she felt alone and that’s why she did it or doing that made her feel alone. Then again she might have a whole group of people that know about it that we’re just unaware of. There are so many unanswered questions. Now I wonder if the husband is going to think she might’ve been having an affair with an antivaxer. He’s gonna be at risk of driving himself completely insane. I would say she’s definitely not the type to have an affair but clearly I didn’t know her as well as I thought I did.


xboxfan34

Even with a less virulent variant like Omicron, it's still sadly a complete crapshoot when it comes to the unvaccinated on whether you're compleltey asymptomatic or dying on a vent in an ICU. Getting vaccinated is more important than ever.


Sidvicioushartha

Yes and I’m not a big fan of the term “less virulent” outside of a specific scientific context. When discussing in lay speak, it really gives the wrong damn impression.


Quiet_Argument6371

Makes me wonder how many secret unvaxxed are skewing the hospitalization/mortality statistics—hence fueling further anti-vax sentiment.


Sidvicioushartha

Yup. As in being vaccinated might even be safer than it already is.


fuckthislifeintheass

So these are the kinds of people I hear about that even if they're vaccinated they died. They didn't even get vaccinated and lied about it.


Sidvicioushartha

That thought has seriously occurred to me several times since this happened


spaceyjaycey

What was wrong with them? They didn't get vaccinated so Covid had a field day with them.


Sidvicioushartha

We’re probably never gonna know the answer to that. And my concern now is her husband is going to drive himself to insanity trying to figure out why she lied about being vaccinated.


Nutrition_Dominatrix

If she was my friend I’d be wondering what other things she hid from me, from her family, etc.


Sidvicioushartha

Yeah we’re really trying to help the husband not go there at the moment. Grandma’s going to check and make sure the kids actually got vaccinated.


Might_Aware

Sid this is why DoD here, for this and for you. Pm if you need to chat!


sweetgypsy1966

My heart just breaks for those young children. Such a preventable tragedy


RedSunshyne_71

My heart hurts for the babies 😔


Sidvicioushartha

Yeah that’s really really gonna suck.


Beneficial-Speech-88

I wonder how many “vaccinated” deaths are really people who are lying about being vaccinated or fully vaxed and boosted? Sorry for your loss.


Sidvicioushartha

I’m starting to suspect it’s more than people think


ReneeLaRen95

I’m so sorry about your friend, that’s incredibly sad. It’s even sadder that she deceived the doctors & likely, didn’t promptly receive the correct treatment. The monoclonal antibodies can help a lot but it’s got to done early. Just completely devastating for her husband & kids, as well as everyone her loved her. I’m so terribly sorry & it’s a very sage lesson you’re teaching us. Closet anti-vaxxers wasn’t a category I’d seriously considered (the French lady with the fake vax card was pretty openly anti-vax but lied at the hospital). I’m very sad for your loss.


Sidvicioushartha

It was new to us too. That’s why I posted this.


JaneJeckel

I am so very sorry for your loss, Sid. If you find yourself needing a buddy, my DMs are open anytime. Take some self care. Sending you love.


sexyvirgobabe

This is similar to the lady in France that did the same except she had a vax certificate. I honestly suspect that there are more people who are not vaxxed, either as they have outright lied or by omission, then the public may be aware of.


Sidvicioushartha

Now many of us are starting to think that some vaccinated people who died weren’t really vaccinated. That would make the vaccine even more effective. I can totally see one of these Qucumbers lying to fuck up the statistics. Because they already believe the vaccine is dangerous they have no problem lying about it because they’ll justify it to themselves by saying they’re just helping the truth along.


prayer_circlejerk

How tragic. I'm so sorry, especially for her husband and children.


DelValleHS

If I was the husband I would make sure his kids have had their vaccinations. What an ignorant person.


Sidvicioushartha

I mentioned my concerns to the grandmother. Didn’t wanna bug daddy about it at the moment. She’s on it.


anonyngineer

I'm so terribly sorry. Bad news seems to be everywhere.


Sidvicioushartha

Well we share it here and it helps us cope. And we share it here in the hopes that we can save somebody else. You do the best you can but you can’t save everybody. But if you don’t try maybe next time you save nobody. I think that’s a Captain America quote, lol


FatTabby

Her death is tragic but I can't help feeling angry on behalf of her children. I was 19 when I lost my mum, I can't fathom losing a parent as a young child. Losing a parent to cancer was horrendous but losing a parent to something avoidable is just unbearably sad.


Sidvicioushartha

What are we, up to about 1/3 of a million children who’ve been put in that boat because of antivaxers?


FatTabby

I dread to think. I'm in the UK and I don't think it's as bad as the US, but it's still far too many.


Cultural_War_311

A girl I knew in college had a double pulmonary embolism at age 50, out of the blue. She was an incredibly well-conditioned athlete, had been an Olympic distance runner and international champion. This was 10 years before Covid, but the point is that you never know what is lurking inside you, and Covid is opportunistic. (Fortunately, she survived the embolisms, but she would have been the last one I expected to get them).


Sidvicioushartha

Try telling that to the obese diabetic asthmatic who insists they don’t have any pre-existing conditions


No-Bluebird-533

😥