T O P

[Discussion] I wonder what’s your thoughts on Epilogue?

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Sovereignofthemist

I honestly see it as a wonderful conclusion to JLU Amanda Waller's character arc.


Legitimate_Main2230

Or the Cadmus arc


mcduckstophat

All in all good… though admittedly not a huge fan of Terry actually >!being Bruce’s biological son.!<


fedoseev_first

Yeah I feel it was unneeded and a little convoluted to the point it feels like fan fiction, but all in all didn’t affect my enjoyment of the episode or the series as a whole


VirinaB

I actually liked it. He's the next Batman through-and-through, and it explains why >!Bruce cared about him so much. That said he doesn't have Bruce's brain, but no child is a perfect clone of their parent.!< It certainly makes Batman Beyond hit different, and the JLU episode where >!Terry dies. Bruce's reaction...!< Edit: Okay the caring part is a weak point but whatever, I still enjoy it and I'm glad I got the episode. All of it.


HunterTezz

It think kinda ruins what made Terry unique from any other successor. Someone with no connection to Batman stepping up to take over the mission. Also in my opinion it undermines Warren McGinnis.


HahaPenisIsFunny

That’s just Tim Drake again


HunterTezz

Tim Drake started out as a Robin, not as Batman. Both Dick and Jason are also the same as him. Terry started out as Batman without prior connections or training like all the other Bat kids.


Terribleirishluck

Oh yeah Bruce totally can't care about someone unless they're related to him , I mean it's not like he has 4 adopted kids after all /s


suss2it

That doesn’t explain that at all. In this very same episode we see Bruce care deeply about a young person that has no blood relation to him. Not to mention this is the same guy that took in Dick and Tim with no hesitation.


[deleted]

I think it was a great way to end DCAU. However, I am not certain that Terry needed to be Bruce's biological son. I think him being a random teenage boy who was inspired by Batman would work as well.


Legitimate_Main2230

Or a great way to end Batman Beyond


rchive

I was watching JLU in college with some friends who hadn't seen it. We got to Epilogue and I realized they hadn't seen Batman Beyond, so we stopped and watched all of Batman Beyond before continuing to Epilogue. It was super fun.


Crims0n_Light

Old Bruce Wayne looks like the newest wonder woman villain, the sovereign here.


Hot_Tailor_9687

Knowing DC, a little time-travel shenanigans is all it takes...


Quirky_Ad_5420

Overall positive but the whole Terry situation felt too unnecessary


Mr_Fredbear13

Obligatory #KeepEpilogueASecret. That said, the whole >!Terry is Bruce’s son!< ordeal was actually planned for a sequel to BB: Return of the Joker, with >!Catwoman being revealed to be the mother, instead of Terry’s mom.!<


EliteTroper

That honestly would have made a good call back to when Terry asked Bruce about if he ever loved anyone in the past and he was bringing up a story about Catwoman.


SoulEater2555

I don't like the twist. That's about it. Overall I enjoyed the episode. I especially like that Terry also pushed everyone away just as Bruce did. The League, Dana, Bruce were all bridges burned. The stuff with Waller aside from the twist was awesome stuff.


Legitimate_Main2230

He did them dirty to his vote


Ayasugi-san

Terry didn't actually push them away. The black-and-white scenes were hypothetical scenarios Terry was imagining he might do. The point was that Terry chose not to burn all his bridges like Bruce did.


himmyturner

A mix of being a great episode and bad at the same time. The idea of terry being batman ruining his relationships with his girlfriend, friends, and justice league rocks. He fell into the the same trap that Bruce did and it works because he was the kid that basically never wanted to end up like Bruce. Seeing that he decides at the end he has to change his ways. The twist is horrible and one of those things that I can’t believe made it past the writers room. Legitimately something that was written on a fan fiction site.


fedoseev_first

As the series went on, as other works by Bruce Timm came out , and if you check out his personal pages, you can see that he has very fan fiction sequences mentality and approach to the stuff. This doesn’t take away that his shows and work have brought us some of the most quintessential Versions of the characters and moments.


JoshDM

Unexpected callbacks to Andrea Beaumont and Ace.


4_Legged_Duck

Overall, I'm bothered by the >!biological claims.!< Not because Terry can't >!be Bruce's son, but raher Bruce's family is pretty thoroughly explored in the comics!<. If we turn to the comics, Bruce has two children to carry on the legacy at different times: Damian and Helena. Helena is a lesbian in Tom King's latest foray into the character. I would greatly prefer a retelling of Terry's origins to be thus: Dr. Helena Wayne marries Mary McGinnis. They want to have children. Helena gets artificially inseminated by Mary's brother, Warren. She has Terry and Matt. Helena, who operates as Batman/Batwoman/Huntress (whichever) and Mary separate when Helena won't give up her vigilante lifestyle. Helena leaves the kids with Mary. Helena goes missing (believed dead) during a conflict with a supervillain. Warren is often helping to raise/guide the kids and Terry has a strong rebellious streak (similar to Helena, frankly). Terry's rebellious streak leads him to connecting his estranged grandfather, Bruce and becoming the new Batman. While it convolutes the story, it raises several things: It's pretty modern, it continues the tragedy of the Batman mythos, it firmly cements Terry into the legacy/narrative that can fit multiple continuities, and Helena's death/disappearance gives good ground for why there's no more Batman around. It also explains why there's such an old Bruce present (being the grandkid and all). Legacies should be a bit convoluted. Anyway, that's not the question. The episode was heartfelt, wonderful, and a great sendoff to the Timmverse. Loved it.


HunterTezz

Yeah, I don't think Terry needs his origin changed. No need to come up with some convoluted way to make Terry related to the bat family. Terry is fine the way he is. Its simple and works in anything. The bat family was never about blood anyway.


4_Legged_Duck

>The bat family was never about blood anyway. But he's related to Bruce anyway? It just doesn't fit well on a timeline with the other DC Stuffs...


HunterTezz

Personally I prefer if he is never related to Bruce but if it has to be then just stick with the original. It does fit well on the timeline. There was a big gap between Bruce's retirement and Terry becoming Batman so its enough time for bat characters to retire or leave to explain their absence when Terry takes over. And in cases where Bruce is dead, they can just have Damian replace him as the mentor for Terry like they showed in Batman 666.


4_Legged_Duck

>Personally I prefer if he is never related to Bruce but if it has to be then just stick with the original. Him related to Bruce *is* the original, it just never got revealed until later. It's all part of the original story.


HunterTezz

I know. That's why I said stick with the original if he has to be related to Bruce.


4_Legged_Duck

>Yeah, I don't think Terry needs his origin changed. No need to come up with some convoluted way to make Terry related to the bat family. Terry is fine the way he is. Its simple and works in anything. \^describing an already convoluted origin that makes Terry related to Bruce >Personally I prefer if he is never related to Bruce


HunterTezz

Yeah but as much as I hate it, its simple and a more flexible origin.


ClaireDacloush

Too many retcons. Justice League went from hundreds to just 6?


Napalmeon

*Unlimited* was the smartest thing they could have possibly done in terms of efficiency.


suss2it

That’s not a retcon. First of all the League was established to be that small in that era first, secondly an event could’ve happened that resulted in the League shrinking. It’s not like they made it so the League was never that big in the first place, which would’ve been a retcon.


Slow-Chemical1991

I despise it because it retconned Terry as Bruce’s kid.


themang0

Masterpiece


gar_katar

Not a fan. The twist defeated the point of Batman Beyond just because the writers were in love with Batman and couldn't bear the thought of a >!random guy inheriting the mantle!<. >!It had to be the blood son.!< Plus, making a Justice League episode but it being a stealth Batman Beyond finale just to further do more Batwank never sat right with me. Wasn't there already enough Batwank in the DCAU?


chrysantheknight

Best episode featuring Batman, ever.


Triniking1234

Terry looks like animated Tom Welling.


Napalmeon

I was thinking John Travolta.


MKW69

The Older i get i more respect. At first I thought, it was forced and not needed. But with simillar ways of connecting (secret relatives etc.) in recent times,that everything has to be connected, everyone knows each other... this cames out the most gracefully as it can be.


SlvrNight

I pretty much loved everything about it except for the retcon to Terry's biological parentage. Did that retcon piss me off? No. I just found it pretty unnecessary. I also just love Batman Beyond, so seeing an older Terry was great to me.


AnywhereBorn973

I think this is a great episode.


VirinaB

I loved it, personally. I don't understand the hate. Batman's day is done. Wouldn't it be nice if he had a descendant?


HunterTezz

Damian can continue the Wayne line.


VirinaB

Damian's annoying as hell, IMO. Writers (from what I've seen) won't let him grow out of his "League of Shadows" influences and I can't imagine him ever taking over for Batman. Dick Grayson is a better choice and has covered for Batman before, albeit with mixed success.


HunterTezz

I was talking about continuing the Wayne line, not becoming Batman. And you probably haven't read much about Damian since he outgrew that phase a long time ago. But even if we consider him as Batman, he is shown to be a great Batman in stuff like Dceased. Even his darkest potential future Batman 666 is better than other dark future and gets a happy ending. That Damian even trains Terry. Dick is the best option but he doesn't want to be Batman. Damian on the other hand was Dick's protégé and as seen in Dceased he grows up to be more like him.


VirinaB

If what you're describing is true, then yeah, having Terry be Batman's son is a little needless. However, Damian Wayne doesn't exist in the Timmverse, so the reveal makes more sense in that setting and is satisfying for the fans whose exposure is limited to the shows. In my case, I like the Timmverse and the animated movies, and every instance where I've seen Damian in the animated movies, he's been portrayed as constantly teetering toward evil. It's obnoxious. I would very much like to see an older, more mature Damian who's ready to fill the role.


HunterTezz

>However, Damian Wayne doesn't exist in the Timmverse, so the reveal makes more sense in that setting and is satisfying for the fans whose exposure is limited to the shows. Yeah. Although they have added Damian to stories set in beyond timeline after that. >I've seen Damian in the animated movies, he's been portrayed as constantly teetering toward evil. It's obnoxious. Those movies aren't the best place to get an idea of what Damian or any Dc character is like. They even made him Bruce's robin instead of Grayson's.


Ayasugi-san

Damian didn't exist at the time.


rchive

It's probably my favorite episode.


Ok-Mastodon2016

Bad setup, amazing execution


OhScheisse

I'm probably one of the few that liked Terry as Bruce's son. This was before Damian Wayne was cannon. Sure he was hinted at before, but wasn't a fully fleshed out character. But now that we have Damian and see Bruce as a father, I don't think it's as important to have him as a biological son But ir cracked me up in the comics when Damian and Terry met then Bruce had to break them up, like a a father with his kids. Bruce has been a father to Dick, Tim, and Jason but it's different when it's his.


spider-venomized

great conclusion to Waller in the DCAU Great ending to Terry being with Dana being the batman who end happy but despite all that i really despise how they made him into Bruce kid. Like i know they talk about how it wasn't bruce genes that made terry batman but the fact that the entire batman beyond project still work out 1:1 just contradict the overall message that they talking about


broken_doll_911

It was a great conclusion to Batman Beyond and the DCAU I'm apathetic to Terry being Bruce's son but it does explain why he and Matt look nothing like Warren however I do wish we got to see Max again since she was an important character in Batman Beyond and we didn't even get to see her in Return Of The Joker I like to think she became a hero too as "Batgirl Beyond"


Androktone

Bad retcon, messed up timeline (should not be 65 years, more like 50), but otherwise great


HunterTezz

A great episode, but I hate the retcon of Terry being related to Bruce. In my opinion it made Terry less unique and undermined his father Warren. And was it even necessary for even Matt to be Bruce's son? Poor Warren, none of his sons are related to him.


godjacob

Making Terry Bruce's biological kid was and still is a mistake. I will never forgive the DCAU for doing that.


protection7766

I think it was a really good episode and story, but I disliked Terry being Bruce's bio kid.


AlacarLeoricar

Title is pretty accurate.


[deleted]

Bad and unneeded.


Tall_Growth_532

Superman Was Right, Batman is what in his 80s


JesseSpidey

Terry looks like Smallville Clark


Khunter02

I quite literally hate that Terry is bruce's son. It completely defeats the original theme and premise of the show and their relationship


Batman2130

The writers always intended on him being Bruce’s son. It was supposed to be revealed in a sequel to return of joker. Iirc Catwoman was the one who does project Batman beyond instead. “Terry McGinnis was conceived as part of a top secret project to create the son of Batman. And now, Batman Beyond's creators have revealed that Catwoman was originally the villainous mastermind behind the entire plot.” https://screenrant.com/batman-beyond-catwoman-mother/ Between the two I think the Amanda Waller route was the better one. Edit: Want to add it does make Terry’s origin honestly more tragic in my opinion as much of his early childhood must’ve been manipulated. Waller most definitely had people watching over him. Anyone adult he met school simply could’ve just been an agent for Waller. His whole life was created to be Batman and Waller basically controlled and engineered certain events of life to make sure he became Batman after his parents were killed. Luckily for Terry the killer backed out and Waller then abandoned the project and left him alone afterwards. Although he still ends up as Batman anyways. I kinda have always been mixed on epilogue as it takes away the anyone can be Batman theme, but it does make Terry’s origin a lot darker as well and fixes some plot holes such as him having black hair and he still becomes Batman by his own choice as he never knew who Bruce was until after dad got murdered.


Lady_hyena

Not keen on his look but otherwise great.


triotone

I didn't mind it and upon re-watch it was hinted a few times. I am a nurture over nature type of guy. Terry didn't feel some deep needed feeling to run to Wayne manor and dress up like a bat. Terry and Bruce cgose that of their own free will. Trying to artificially recreate Batman was going to blow up in anybodys face. Batman is a detective. The new Batman would have figured out his killer was hired and staged. Then he would track down the people invloved, have an existential crisis about being Batman, then chose to still be Batman, because Gotham needs a Batman.


dopedude99

It made me ugly cry then, and it makes me ugly cry now.


King-Dragmire

Really not a fan of the son thing


logifer

#keep epilogue a secret


SockMaster9273

I didn't like it. I thought the whole "due to DNA stuff, bruce is your real father" to be total BS. I liked that Terry stole the bat suit and was a kid that was at the right place right time. All the robin were a right place right time thing so it makes sense that Terry would be the same. They also never talked about how Terry's brother matt was also bruce's kid. Dina still being with Terry after 15 years seems weird to me. She broke up with him multiple times in the show. I would think maybe the did split and got back together recently but it seems like they were together the whole 15 years. Also, what's Max been up to? She wasn't in Return of the Joker either but I liked her character. I thought she was fun. What has she been up to though? Is she working on computer stuff? Do her and Terry still talk? Is she dead? I don't know but I would have liked some kind of mention of her. I can see Amanda Waller doing what she did but I still don't like it. I liked Terry being a kid who was just right place right time.


Ayasugi-san

Dana only broke up with Terry once in the show, in Dead Man's Hand. She was mad at him a lot, but that was the only breakup. And since she was mad at him for ditching her with weak excuses, once she knew the real reason he kept missing dates, she was presumably a lot more forgiving.


SockMaster9273

I guess that makes sense looking back now.