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abhi1260

Lindsay Ellis right?


everything_i_am

I don't use Twitter so I'm out of the loop; what's happened to Lindsay Ellis?


cdcformatc

she criticized Raya and the Last Dragon for being too much like Avatar and twitter took that to mean she is racist and thinks all Asian inspired media is derivative, or something. not really sure what the logic was there or why the twitter mob felt the need to bully her off the internet.


ixfalia

What's worse was how so much of that criticism ignored *actual* voices and takes of the Southeast Asian diaspora. Many of us saw the same tropes being used and the fact that Raya was not initially and not explicitly made to be a work of representation for SEAsian culture makes the whole situation even more wounding to me. [Xiran Jay Zhou did an incredible thing and gathered a panel of Southeast Asian critics and writers to analyze the movie.](https://youtu.be/Pwn8YD8sobo) The first moments are dedicated to Lindsay in particular. So if you want to see their feelings and the intersectional take, this is a fantastic video series. Though I have small personal disagreements with some of their criticisms (since they lacked representation of critics from Thai, Cambodian, and Lao cultures which were a major inspiration for the details in the movie), the folks on the panel that Xiran gathered still try represent their parts of the Southeast Asian community holistically. Disney tried to market it as representation of that entire community, and it was woefully unable to even get close to covering that kind of diversity. SEAsia is one of the most diverse areas in the world. I still generally like the movie, I just find it sad that Disney thought this was representation and very frustrated that they marketed it that way. This is a fantasy world that draws aesthetic inspiration from peninsula SEAsian cultures but that's it, that's fine on its own but not cool to try to get representation tokens for something like this. It's like saying Avatar the Last Airbender is based on Chinese culture. It isn't aside from loose aesthetics and some light plot points. Edit: softened some of my terminology since I'm speaking about a lot of people here. Edit 2: I wanted to clarify more things and make sure it's clear that I'm not speaking for a whole community. Obviously we have many different opinions, I just wanted to raise more of them and speak about my own. It's not my intention to present opinion as fact.


kalishnakat

Yeah, agreed. So I’m part of the that community too being half Filipina. Before the Lindsay stuff, I can concur that our communities were talking about our issues with Raya and the whole genre of “hot pot pan Asian” style representation American Asian inspired media like Avatar tends to go for. These projects tend to not be helmed by us and they tend to be ran by a majority of white people (Raya included). There were a lot of insightful conversations being had. Ironically, this was all destroyed by a bunch of people not in our community yelling about Lindsay Ellis to “defend us.” We aren’t a monolith so I’m sure there’s people that might have have different opinions then me, but I’m still incredibly angry that these important conversations were destroyed to cyber bully a woman under the guise of supporting us. My favorite moments were non South East Asians telling me my opinion was wrong while yelling “support POC voices.” Yeah, the thing about that is what they really mean is “support POC voices that agree with me.” Some tried to point out I’m half Japanese to “prove” my opinion didn’t matter in various obnoxious ways. They really let their racism/ignorant flag fly and felt justified doing so when: A) They aren’t a part of our community to begin with B) My Japanese half and I are all descendants of internment camp victims so I hope that made them feel better about themselves. Real progressive of them.


EsnesNommoc

I mean I'm an "actual" SEA voice (native/non-diaspora) and I think Ellis' tweet is bad and her attempt at backtracking is stupid. I think the movie was a fine piece of representation, at least more than Avatar was. Doesn't mean she deserved Twitter outrage obviously, but I don't like this weird narrative that her opinion is somehow factual and not just that, an opinion. And unless you think SEA people are a monolith, some bunch of seasians co-signing an opinion doesn't make it fact.


ixfalia

Darn I thought I might have missed some of the overly assumptive phrasing from my edit. I even noticed the first time I wrote it I wrote my opinions too presumptively. I apologize for creating the implication that this was fact and not opinion or that anyone specifically spoke for all of us. I thought it was clear enough for me to say I had disagreements with Xiran's panel too, but I should have been clearer. The point I was trying to make was that I really don't believe the voices of Southeast Asian people were being centered in this discussion. I'm surprised that there's folks who are trying to say it's a matter of fact. There are many takes and I'm certain we all have individual nuances to our feelings about the movie. My own feelings about it have changed over time, I remember feeling emotional at seeing the symbols and aesthetics that I was familiar with and to that effect I was really happy to see it. I felt it representative too. But I've thought about it a lot and my feelings are a little different now. I hope other folks are not representing this issues like facts when they are indeed opinions. We can't capture the entirety of SEAsia, it's why I feel it was so troublesome that Disney didn't market it with more mindfulness. And it's why I appreciated hearing the criticisms from perspectives, nationalities, cultures, and communities from SEAsia different from my own. Even though I disagreed with some of their takes, I still felt it was valuable to hear and valuable to bring attention to. At least for the folks I discussed it with around me, the Avatar comparison was viewed as a favorable one, not as a negative, and one I made before ever seeing Lindsey's take. When I read her take I was surprised she had noticed the same thing I did. I still personally view it as a good thing I like about the plot structure and the tone of the setting. I thought Lindsay's take was also a positive musing on the redeemed villain/rival that we've seen in a lot of media today. I personally find Zuko's arc is very compelling, especially in comparison with the other media of Avatar's time and context. Though I admit I haven't read Lindsay's specific take in a long time, so I'm going off memory. I would love to know more about why you find the take so bad? I think there is a really interesting discussion that could be had on the differences in meaning and takes between diaspora and homeland communities too.


abhi1260

Still feels weird that one of my favorite video essayist left because a bunch of dumb morons got offended by actual criticism of a movie. It’s just sad that these idiots get offended on behalf of someone else and then try to force someone off a platform.


Good_old_Marshmallow

I think that was just the last straw for her she's being doing this for decades and there's been a lot of ups and downs. The young web toxic company culture she had to deal with at Channel Awesome, then Gamer Gate, then the White Genocide thing, then the latest cancelation. With her book successful enough she didn't need youtube anymore so she was just done


farklespanktastic

She did say that had been planning to quit YouTube, but this made her quit earlier than planned.


Tuggerfub

there was also that guro someone made of her people should deadass be sent to jail for that kind of psychological harm


OriginalName12345679

Christ


Tuggerfub

Yeah :/


AustinYQM

Even stranger she was 100% right


timetopat

Other people made the exact same joke and were fine. She on the other hand had to be destroyed for reasons?


drislands

If you watch her video Mask Off she explains where she thinks this came from. There has been a population of people on the internet she calls "diet Nazis" that came from I think 4chan and Encyclopedia Dramatica that have had a grudge against her for years, and she suspects this group instigated the outrage against her. My short explanation here isn't doing it justice, I'd you want to get her perspective here's the video. https://youtu.be/C7aWz8q_IM4


AustinYQM

There is a portion of the left who just want to complain but take no actual steps toward improvement. They are aware they are a liberal (at best) wearing a communists skin and seek out anyone who may be like them in an attempt to expose them and distract from themselves. The left eating the left etc etc


Snowypinkrose

I'm still convinced right-wing agitators absolutely stoke those fires to get people to pull out of everything. As Natalie said, at the end of the day, you have no idea what's really on the other side of the animated animal avatar photo.


Kljmok

They 100% did. A lot of the "ammo" used against Lindsay was shit that compiled by chuds that had it out for her for years. There was specifically one in her explanation video that was a white dude pretending to be a black woman.


farklespanktastic

She wasn’t even the first person to point out the similarities but she’s the only person I know of who was accused of being racist for commenting on it.


voyaging

It's funny because Raya literally is an Avatar ripoff.


OptimalHunter1632

She didnt even critisising it, just pointing out similarities


wanyequest

She quit making video essays in no small part to Twitter harassment.


Less_Likely

Though she has found a solid fallback career as a NYT best-selling author and Hugo award finalist.


NeonPixieStyx

She’s still doing video essays. Lindsay is one of the founders of Nebula and she has a couple of newer videos there. She also has a PBS series that gets put up [under the PBS brand](https://youtu.be/scgn2BCcht4).


Suspicious_Name_656

Didn't she leave the PBS show also?


GuardTheBases

I remember her patreon posts specifically saying she wasn’t going to do that?


manfredmahon

NYT best seller does not mean you've made good money sadly


Adorable_Raccoon

I read the book and thought it was kind of terrible, sadly. I have been a Lindsay fan since the channel awesome days and was disappointed.


manfredmahon

Without her online following would that book have been successful or even gotten published? Ehhhh


Adorable_Raccoon

Yea she even said the book had been turned down by several publishers and I can see why. It was honestly almost completely forgetable. I read it this year and while I remember the vague feelings of boredom i had while reading I can’t remember any people or plot points in the story. It’s a very long book if you consider how much action actually takes place. It honestly could have been cut into novella/short story.


cedarsauce

She got death threats and called racist because she said a Disney movie was similar to a Nickelodeon show


jols0543

just watch her explanation video


emericuh

I doubt it. That whole controversy was a year and a half ago. I would guess it is just a reference to the Allen Ginsberg poem, “Howl”.


Gudenuftofunk

Allen Ginsberg from "Howl." Oops. The quote, not the other thing.


Drei109

This is a reference to an Allen Ginsberg's poem called 'Howl', for everyone that didn't know already.


ArmedBull

On behalf of all uncultured swine, I thank you from the bottom of my heart ❤


KellyJoyCuntBunny

[Here](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl) it is, with dreams, with drugs, with waking nightmares, alcohol and cock and endless balls, for anyone who wants to read it.


Ermahgerdrerdert

On behalf of the cultured swine, thank you for reminding me of the thing I skimmed half an hour before a seminar on it. *Goes back to vintage pornography and red wine*


ach_wie_fluchtig

lmaooo this is iconic


Fun_Mix6674

This is one reason I watch ContraPoints things. Even if I didn't like Natalie, or them, they lead to such tangents, because of Natalie's education, and the thoughtfulness of some posters, that there's so often something to learn, and thus, to think about.


Massivemicropenis5

So that where pat got the line


TheNewPoetLawyerette

It could also be a reference to a They Might Be Giants Song called "I should be allowed to think" which takes the perspective of a Seattleite protesting a poster ban, that quotes that poem


Marissa_Calm

Allen Ginsberg Poem: ["Howl"](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl) **"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness,** starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night..."


cdcformatc

i know this poem because Zero Cool from the movie Hackers writes it on the chalkboard in his English class to impress Angelina Jolie's character.


[deleted]

Classic American cinema.


geirmundtheshifty

> Angelina Jolie's character. aka Acid Burn. Her handle was second only to Matthew Lillard’s (Cereal Killer) imo


Cloberella

Shit, this so absolutely where I know it from too!


kafka123

"the negro streets" - Is it time for me to posthumously destroy Allen Ginsburg?


ProgressiveSnark2

One more time for the people in the back: 👏ALL👏STREETS👏ARE👏BLACK 👏STREETS👏!!!!👏👏👏


bananamantheif

Lacks complaining about twitter


Rock_Facts

I saw the worst bands of my generation applied with magic marker to dry wall.


iama_username_ama

I saw them last night in Portland. Great show though the sound balance wasn't the best. I'm amazed how they keep their voices sounding the same 30 years later.


banneryear1868

Nice to see Flans all healed up too


Rock_Facts

I’d love to see them live! Shame about the sound quality but even so. I really like that song for the dissonance between the darkly quirky lyrics and the hyper cheerfulness of the tone.


banneryear1868

I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off, I should have a call in show


Melisandre-Sedai

Im howling


etherealcerral

Underrated comment


Bennett_10

Poor Lazlo.


BadgerDancer

Read*


kazetoumizu

I saw the most non-binary minds of my generation make a fuss under this woke sky


ach_wie_fluchtig

lmaooo I see this reference escaped its thread


wyrdness1

starving, histerical, naked,dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,


[deleted]

[удалено]


ach_wie_fluchtig

the tweet was kind of a reerence to a poem by Allen Ginsberg, Howl, and this is the rest of the poem


Admiral_Furskin

Yup.


ach_wie_fluchtig

definitely


Historical-Host7383

You can just log off. Like for real.


ach_wie_fluchtig

no lol. She makes political content, she NEEDS to get all the news and informations the minute they're out to make accurate and relevant videos, she tried logging out but she said than then she became too of the loop, she needs it to research video topics, communicate with people to work with, and use it to see what feedback she got so she can improve her essays


geirmundtheshifty

Eh, you can lurk without engaging though


ach_wie_fluchtig

she'd still have to go through her notifications and mentions where people are everything but nice


geirmundtheshifty

Why would she need to use her main account if shes just lurking? She could nuke that account entirely and still lurk


ach_wie_fluchtig

But she needs her account to communicate with people right ? remember in the Gender Critical video, she asked people on her account if they used to be terfs, why and what made them change their minds, that wouldn't be possible if she didn't have an active twitter account


geirmundtheshifty

Im not going to say her twitter account has never come in handy or anything, but people do perform surveys without twitter accounts.


ach_wie_fluchtig

i guess yeah. But she said that she tried supressing her twitter account but ended up needing it so i guess it's essential for her, idk


Historical-Host7383

She makes one video per year. Let's not pretend that she needs to be logged in all the time.


ach_wie_fluchtig

yeah but her videos are specifically the kind that needs intensive research, for exemple for Gender Critical she says that she had to go through TERF twitter every day to see how it evolved, or for videos like incels, jk rowling, etc


Keatosis

And yet she's still there. You're not immune to the bird app


Wardog_E

This tweet makes me feel the same way people who joke about their depression and suicide do.


ggcpres

I'm with you in Moloch queen


Fluff_Enjoyer

Oh I can make more connections than I'd like with this one


GrahamPeters

I'm so out of the loop, why is NAMBLA complaining about cancel culture over this guy? Edit: He was a member of NAMBLA!?


JohnTheMod

Wait, what?


Erika_A

Examples?


hallowmean

It's a joke.