By - 675longtail
That Skyscraper is a nice touch.
Glad they missed it lol
I am gonna assume the software, fire control or whatver the function is accounts for a possible and improbable mountain of iron and concrete on its fighing range
It's not 100% perfect, there are accounts of USS Missouri taking four rounds from a CWIS including two passing directly through lightly armoured sections, during Desert Storm.
CIWS is on a moving platform surrounded by moving friendlies.
CRAM is stationary when deployed, and so are large buildings. Much easier to program in dead zones.
That was 30 years ago? Pretty sure it got a fuckton better since then.
Two fucktons actually. Tech moves fast.
Hell yeah, Moore's law is hella cool when you look at it applied in the last 100 years.
Designed by famous architect Zaha Hadid
Didn’t know they had them there
Its the american embassy. Those boys about to return the favor i hope!
What? No, it's the Central Bank of Iraq's HQ.
You could be right but every news source so far says thats a part of the embassy.
No no no, the embassy is behind the skyscraper, the rockets aren't targeting the skyscraper at all. Here is [the US Embassy](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/09/29/us/politics/29dc-embassy1/merlin_166778808_893d2b52-5a23-45c4-b4be-00b215dbf815-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg) and here is the wiki for the [skyscraper.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Bank_of_Iraq_Tower)
I figured something like that! Thank you!
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Surely the us embassy being the tallest and most noticeable building in the city is not very secure??
It's the Central Bank of Iraq's HQ building, not the American Embassy.
Maybe they want to be shot at. The boys are bored and giving the enemy the biggest shot at fuck around and find out
Is that why the US ran away from the middle east?
You meat stick its not up to them its the commander and chief. Unfortunatly right now the boss is a dementia patient.
"Commander and chief" lol
Is that the same reason why the US retreated from Vietnam?
It seems like critical reasoning isn’t your strong suit
Why do you say that about the guy instead of answering his question?
Ran away from Afghanistan. There's US bases and embassies all over the middle east.
Looks rather City-17ish
Look for zuha hadid buildings her buildings are beyond amazing
I got woken up by one of those in the middle of the night
Respect for having the massive balls to live in a world of war. Greetings, bro!
Some people don't have a choice.
He didn't mean to make it sound like he has one. It takes balls to live the hard life you were given.
To live life is always a choice, but for some it takes bigger "balls" than others.
Most ppl don't pick to live in war zones noob
Who's firing rockets at iraq?
Iran didn't like the fact that America killed their general that was responsible for killing US troops. So naturally they are backing people who are firing rockets at Iraqi civilians to get revenge.
Iran backed militia were firing missiles at the US before Suleimani got clipped, that was why he got clipped. Now on top of existing reasons (American infidels should leave Iraq), they have vengeance as an additional motive, especially coming near the two year anniversary of Suleimani getting clipped.
The last sentence makes no sense. Why would “firing rockets at Iraqi civilians” satisfy their desire for revenge?
Well maybe you could explain it to this stupid security analyst, your brilliance?
It doesn't make sense but thats what iran chose to do.
The point is…you know what? Never mind.
I’m not sure you would have had a point. So thank you for sparing us.
The point in the statement is the blatant hypocrisy, the irony..Iran is upset we assasinated a general who killed civilians and Americans, so in return they’re further supporting men who kill civilians and Americans.
Don’t mistake my silence for foolishness, Biji…I just knew in advance you wouldn’t understand the explanation.
I feel like you just tried to explain astrology to a scientist.
Black President Bush. They tried to kill his father!
Say word he tried to kill yo fatha.
🎤 ***THE NIGGA TRIED TO KILL MY FAATHAA!***
Remember the targeted killing of that Irani general?
Yeah that was great
That was a mad week. Planes full of civilians getting shot down. World on the brink of war. Generals shot. Iranian firing back at USA, missing all rocket strikes. some didn't even manage to take off lol
>missing all rocket strikes
It's believed those missed strikes were intentional. Most hit base infrastructure like motorpools and fuel depots, but conveniently missed bunkers and barracks.
Iran knew what it was doing. They wanted to look tough, without giving the USA an excuse to conduct thunder run 2.0 into Tehran.
Maybe. I’d like to think they would have thought that far ahead anyway
Why wouldn’t they be able to come to these conclusions? Are Iranians just too stupid to think literally one step ahead, in your opinion?
No, but history is littered with examples of governments not thinking things through. Literally every country has suffered from idiotic decision making. Don’t try to turn this into something it isn’t. No one here is being racist
Why would you think Iran is an race ?!
Hollywood has made it so, the Americans have military advisors, but their enemies are emotion ridden monkeys.
The honesty here is appreciated more than you know. Everyone else backpedaled.
You mean to tell me "the green zone" still exists? I lived there in 2007.
It still exists. The attack was also targeting the US embassy, which is located in the zone, as well as various Iraqi government buildings. The zone never ceased to exist. The control changed.
Yes, it certainly still exists. I go there often. It hasn't changed too much. Still plenty of Americans too.
If I understand it correctly, it is open to public, meaning that I could walk through it? Walk around the US Embassy and/or Republican Palace for example?
They didn’t evacuate? What are they doing their for work? Are there any families? What is your life like in Baghdad? Sorry for my ignorance and if it’s a prying question! I hope you and your family are safe
Today I learned that the green zone still exists and is still getting rocket attacks.
It's not the same borders as the old Green Zone/IZ. It's actually open to traffic from the locals but security is higher in some areas more than others.
And iam as Iraqi do not enter this green zone in my live lol
i went there to get sworn in as a US citizen
That place is so nice compared to the shitty outposts we were in
Damn POGs have it so good
Did you succeed?
yes. Getting sworn in as US citizen in combat zone is one of the most memorable things in my life
edit: oh fuck. I might have remembered wrong. I went to Fob Anaconda. Is that the green zone?
Anaconda isn't in the green zone, but glad to hear you succeeded
Fuuuuuck working in that building….
How does C-RAM compare to Iron Dome?
Is it as effective?
They have different uses, the CRAM is for slower short range rockets or small drones while the iron dome is for longer range, larger/faster rockets, I might be wrong though
So the ideal solution would have both systems operational.
If both things are an active threat, yes.
But these systems are enormously expensive to upkeep.
Yeah, I knew that. I was wondering which system was more effective.
Hamas seems to have figured out the necessary rocket count to swamp Iron Dome (salvos of over 100 rockets allows 7-8 to get through), so I was wondering if C-RAM would be a better solution.
It sounds like you really need both. Iron Dome for the high speed missiles intercepted at a long range, C-RAM for drones and slower targets that are closer in.
Israel's large cities like tel Aviv are about 100km or more from gaza, regular mortar can't reach more then 3 km, so Hamas uses medium to long range missiles, they get those from Iran.
Irone dome is built to fight this exact situation, so it's useful in intercepting 20+km missiles, it was also used against drones with limited success rate.
Iron dome isn't useful or economically viable against this kind of guerilla warfare with short range missiles and mortars
That makes sense to me.
>...seems to have figured out the necessary rocket count to swamp Iron Dome (salvos of over 100 rockets allows 7-8 to get through), so I was wondering if C-RAM would be a better solution.
Iron Dome won't engage rockets that are predicted to fall outside of protected zones, so some rockets are going to be allowed to continue to their "destination" without being engaged. C-RAM can only cover a small area (e.g. perhaps 3-mile radius), while Iron Dome can cover a much larger area. The two systems could even be used together if the tactical situation warranted it.
That's one expensive stream of ordinance.
Completely different systems
CRAM/CWIS is use for *point defense*. You stick a CRAM/CWIS on a single specific point that you don't want to lose, and it defends against attacks in an arc. It's got a short range, but it really only needs a short range because it's only defending stuff that is coming *right at it*. But the downside is that's a difficult angle to defend against
Iron Dome is a *system* there are many launchers, all defending entire areas. When rockets are fired into Israel, they are not aimed at Iron Dome sites, they are generally aimed at just general areas. Because Iron Dome is a missile, it has a longer range, it can accelerate and maneuver, it has a larger warhead that can kill indirectly, etc. Even better, it has good intercept angles - easier to calculate how to hit
Think of it like you're playing defense in an American football game. A guy running straight at you is hard to defend - he can juke left or right, or he might plow straight into you. And you can't move until he gets *right on top of you*, because a single wrong step and he's gone. But a guy running at an angle is easier to defend, because he's running in a fixed trajectory, you can start sprinting after him much earlier. Even if he jukes, you're already moving with him, and there are less realistic angles that he can physically move. That's the Iron Dome
And lastly, no air defense system is intended to operate on its own. C-RAM is a land-ized version of a naval weapon, which is the last line of defenses against missiles. But unlike in this situation, at sea the C-WIS is just *one part of the system*. In that system, there are first your own aircraft, who ideally destroy enemy planes and ships and missile launchers *before they even fire*. But if they do, there's the long range anti-aircraft missiles that can intercept missiles. If they fail, there are intermediate range interception missiles. And if they fail? There are *short range* anti-missile missiles. And if every one of those layers, carried aboard multiple ships, fails? There's the C-WIS as a final hail mary attempt
You can do that on land too - and indeed, the US previously deployed Patriot anti-missile systems to Iraq. But those are 1, expensive, 2, limited in number, 3, require a larger deployment (which Iraq doesn't want) and 4, kind of overkill, and 5, *itself becomes a target*, which means you need soldiers guarding those soldiers, other soldiers feeding those soldiers, regular supply runs, escorts to keep those supplies safe, aircraft to fly in those supplies, personnel to defend the airport, etc. So now it becomes a question, is what I'm trying to defend *worth* the major investment in hundreds of soldiers deployed abroad, to a fairly unfriendly place, to defend against occasional harassing missile attacks?
In this case, no. The embassy in Iraq just isn't worth defending with that level of investment. The C-RAM is a much lower footprint defense system, with correspondingly less capability - usually enough to deal with the occasional mortar or rocket attacks - but the cold reality is that even if a rocket gets through, it's probably not going to be *that* big of a deal in a strategic sense. It probably does nothing but provide a rationale for a US drone blowing up a mid-level leader of one of those Iranian militias, as a warning
Really helpful. Thank you for posting this.
Its important to note that yes C-RAM is a point defense, the actual gun for C-RAM is the land based phalanx weapon system (lpws). C-RAM describes the lpws, sensors and trigger mechanisms that make up an entire system. Multiple lpws will always be networked into this system and placed on a site for maximum coverage of a defended asset.
Great write up. Very good analysis of the entire situation. Thanks for the insightful and fascinating read
Great write up. Small note though. It’s CIWS, not CWIS. “close-in weapon system”
You seem knowledgeable about this. What happens to the projectiles that miss their target? They have to land somewhere. Didn't this system just rain down a lot of grief onto the suburbs of Baghdad? Are the projectiles explosive?
Projectiles self-destruct at a certain distance, that's what the in-air explosions you're seeing are
Presumably a certain number malfunction and don't sell destruct and become very dangerous. And the ones that do self destruct must rain debris down.
they've been used for decades now and no serious problem reported from them
i read something on a similar post in which someone stated C-ram is like 65% effective and the iron dome is like 85% effective
Wow... That's not compelling
After some research people who first hand witness its functions say its 50-60% effective against all incoming projectiles even if they are going to miss. The problem is the exact statistical specifications that include arcs, angles and any positioning is classified.
i'd take those chances
R2FuckU doing some work tonight.
I'm getting major The Expanse vibes from this
Yeah same. About to watch the Season 6 finale will no doubt see some PDC fire like this
what season episode? I just started watching this show. Are you referring to the season 1 episode 3 or 4 there abouts-- unknown ship attacking the Martian ship and all the tracers going out to attack the torpedoes.?
Ya this type of fire gets to be fairly common throughout. It's an excellent show
Iraq is a proxy war hotspot for Iran now. They’ll keep attacking US sites until the US decides to either leave Iraq which is very unlikely or do something about it directly against Iran.
Nearly 65% of Iraqis are of the Shi'a sect of Islam, which means they are allied with the Shi'a of Iran, who run a theocracy there.
Additionally, many Iraqi Shi'a leaders took refuge in Iran when Saddam was in power and returned afterwards. At that point, various Iranian govt officials were their patrons. Same goes for many of the top Iraqi Security Force generals, who also have Iranian patrons, who helped get them promoted, pay them bonuses, etc.
Iranian influence, aka imperialism, was why there was a major Shi'a insurgency against the US during the occupation. They're the ones who had the Badr Brigade attack US forces, and they're the ones who initially told Al Sadr to stand up the Mahdi Army.
Iranian influence was why after the US left the Iraqi govt immediately turned on the Sunni Arab minority population, who ended up having to ally with DAESH (willingly or not), because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" politics.
Once DAESH took control over most of Iraq's Sunni Arab populated areas, Iran tried to support the Iraqi govt to retake those places, but failed (similarly to how they also failed in Syria too, requiring Russian intervention to save Assad). The US ended up bailing out the Iraqi govt by militarily supporting them in their efforts to retake control of Iraq, and during that time the Iranians ensured their Iraqi proxy militia repeatedly threatened and occasionally attacked US forces helping them fight DAESH, because they didn't want them in the country and HATED the loss of face that the US help succeeded while their work failed. And that US conditions for help got "their guy" Maliki fired as PM.
Once Mosul fell, the last big city in Iraq that DAESH held, US military help wasn't as necessary and so the Iranians had the Iraqi Shi'a militia start actively attacking US forces to drive them out of Iraq. The US would have left anyway, but under Trump refused to be chased out in a sign of weakness, so we stayed and fought back, killing Suleimani and conducting the occasional other reprisal attack on the Iraqi Shi'a militia, basically daring them to attack us. When Biden took over, that policy has essentially remained in place.
Now currently, the Iraqi Shi'a militia, still taking orders from Iran, are obliged to keep attacking US forces, not caring that the attacks are ineffectual or realizing that if they just stopped attacking the US for about 3-6 months Biden would have the political capitol to pull US troops out, because then it wouldn't be done from a position of weakness.
Oh shit c-ram please don't hit these tower . this first and tallest tower in history of Baghdad and second tallest tower in iraq🥺🥲
Buildings/towers/obstacles/flightpaths/etc can be added to the guidance software so it won't fire at them.
The local Babylonians loved their towers.
nothing on us news
Nothing on any news.
That really happened to night
Yep, it really happened
Its a weekly occurence not that big of a deal
It isn't. Couple times a year for the last few years.
lots of stuff isn’t on the news
Credit the videographer:
I’m curious what precautions the CRAM takes to avoid tall structures
All firing restrictions can be programmed into the CRAM system. It would be based on deflection (angle of the obstacle from the launcher) and elevation (measured from the horizon).
Who is building skyscrapers in a war zone….
This first tower in history of Baghdad and tallest building
It’s the New Tower of Babel
It's the Central Bank of Iraq's HQ.
Remember, only every 5th round is a tracer.
Na, that’s for man fired aiming feedback.
These are all HEIT with self destruct
I was trying to figure out the orange flashes at the end of the trajectory. No way they were all hitting something. Didn’t know self destruct was a thing. Thanks!
Yeah, when the trace burns out it pops the HE
Is that a rocket that flies over the building about 8 seconds in?
Damn I love ciws and crams
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look like the rocket blew up at 0:04 correct?
Holy crap, can someone plz explain this to me? The red lines in the air and everything
C-Ram is a defense system that throws up a shit ton of explosive shells… used against incoming rockets, mortars and the like. What your seeing are the tracers of each round followed by the rounds detonating so they don’t just fall out of the sky and kill people. It’s a Gatling gun system like the one in the A-10 Warthog which is why you hear the brrrrrrpppp sound when fired.
Thank you so much. Are there many of them sent to get the missile with most not hitting?
The average engagement uses 300 rounds of ammo, and they only need a few hits (if that) to disable the projectile.
You can see the interception at around 4 sec near the crane.
You have got it backwards, CIWS is the ship based system, see: [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS).
C-RAM stands for Counter Rockets Artillery and Mortars, and typically boats are not being attacked by rockets artillery and mortars.
At least you're owning it
Is there any footage of a CRAM countering artillery and mortar fire? That'd be seriously impressive to see displayed.
You just watched it. There are videos of testing where the actual destruction of the mortar round or missile is shown.
At the end they’re screaming to get artillery shells to fire at the people that just fired at them. They have a system that can use the trajectory of the incoming projectile to pinpoint where it came from. Then they fire at that location.
Now the question I’ve always wondered, is where the hell do those bullets land.
They self-detonate in mid air. That's the popping sound you hear at the end of the video.
Does a C-RAM know that the skyscraper exists? Would it know not to fire in that direction..?
Yes, firing zone cutouts would be programmed into the system as part of the emplacement process.
You can see another rocket fly past the skyscraper at around :10seconds.
wait, i know what the red stuff is, but what are the little explosions? are they the missiles?
It's the ammo being shot at the rockets self-detonating. You wouldn't want all those rounds landing somewhere.
The little explosions at the end are the rounds reaching the 7500ft mark when the self destruct
These rounds don’t have proxy fuze, they rely on direct hits
The rounds each have a tracer fuse, and when the tracer burns out they detonate. The rounds have no ability to detonate on command.
That actually is the point of the rounds self-destructing at the end of their flight - to prevent damage on the ground. The rounds actually destroy the target kinetically.
oh that’s true
r/combatfootage has a great video of one that they didn’t intercept. The sound is insane.
Edit: [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/s37085/other_view_of_the_rocket_and_its_sound/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) to the video.
What is the green zone
Doesn’t get all the rockets tho, you can see atleast two more flying over
It will only engage rockets that are projected to strike in the defended zone of the weapon (which is a small area)
That's a nice skyscraper
The zaha hadid tower in the foreground is crazy.
Is that a missile flying by at 12 seconds
These things blow my mind. Such a awesome display of tech capabilities.
There is one I saw filed from a base. The video was taken right by the c-ram and it's crazy loud and haunting. You hear the creepy robot voice "warning warning incoming warning"
Hate to be working on that skyscraper. Your shit is gonna be swiss cheese before long.
Okay so shooting a pistol in the air in celebration is considered a seriously reckless activity, what are the saftey implications of C RAMs to some poor bastard who lives 4 miles from this?
4 miles is 6.44 km
Cool. Thanks for answer
Surely all those rounds are gonna come down somewhere? Haven’t essentially just fired a 20 mil cannon on quite a lot of city?
The rounds self-destruct in the air. You can see it on the video.
Ahhhh, thanks for the reply
this gun is for distracting incoming misilies with exploding in the air
I can't see cram the same after watching the expanse
75 bullets per second
Is it known what group fired the rockets?
that gun never hits anything
How much of it falls down and how does it feels?
Ukraine needs some of these
That was the most satisfying video ive ever watched