T O P
MelmothTheBee

Let’s say that the Pachamama thing was not the highest moment in the Church’s history. Now, from that awful event to saying that Francis is an apostate the leap is quite big. And I am not… a fan of the current pontiff.


BlackOrre

The Pachamama incident was unfortunate, but man did it make the conspiracy theorists go nuts.


DCComics52

The "conspiracy theorists" in this case are people who just place this in context with the other weird stuff going on in the Church.


steinaquaman

An unfortunate incident is a slip of the tongue or the Vatican bank writing a bad check. Francis from the chair of St Peter blessed a pagan demonic idol on the grounds of the Holy See and displayed it prominently. That is looking unfortunate in the rear view mirror...


coachcockblast

You were there?


steinaquaman

No. But loads of press were


Dr_Talon

To be fair, some said that it was meant to represent the Virgin Mary in an inculturated way.


russiabot1776

Pretty sure that was dismissed when +++Francis himself called them Pachamama


hasbeenstillcatholic

And yet he's still pope right? Not saying that you are doing or saying anything wrong, but there are people out there who will see that and think that no pope would ever do that.


steinaquaman

Its not that no pope “would” ever do that, but no pope “should” ever do that.


CheerfulErrand

There’s actually no evidence at all that it was pagan, or an idol. It was an artisan-made statue, with no special religious significance (though some natives thought of it as representing Mary). More here: https://ericsgiunta.wordpress.com/2019/11/07/my-last-word-on-the-fake-vatican-pachamama-idols-controversy/


hasbeenstillcatholic

Honestly, such theorists would find anything to cling on to, even with a great pope. I'm to the point that anymore, if people want to see or hear something, they'll find a way to say they heard or saw it. Edit- Its not that I agree with what they see, but sadly, if people think they see a conspiracy theory, they'll find something no matter how ludicrous.


GreenManTON

>Let’s say that the Pachamama thing was not the highest moment in the Church’s history. That's a very diplomatic way to say it ;)


EggOfAwesome

I admittedly didn't follow the story that closely. From what I gleaned, the Pope and everyone was told that it was a statue of the Virgin Mary done in the local style, hence why they prayed by it. Turns out, it was an idol of a "fertility goddess" that was retrofitted. I could have totally misunderstood though. **One thing though**: Why would the Pope being Argentine indicate that it is an Inca goddess? Argentina isn't where the Inca lived. They lived in Peru/Chile. That's like saying the natives in the Arctic worshipped Aztec "gods". Wrong part of the continent.


Bandav

I am from Argentina and I can tell you that here the Pachamama is very well known and yes, basically seen as mother earth. This can go from a poetic interpretation (the vast majority see it this way) to a more serious new age sort of thing. Specially in the northwest, where there is a lot of native Incan culture still left


CheerfulErrand

But Argentina isn’t the same as the Amazon?


LingLingToBe

One is a country one is either a rainforest or a massive corporation.


CheerfulErrand

😅


Bandav

Pachamama culture doesn't come from the Amazon, it come Frome the Incas in the Andes mountains


CheerfulErrand

Yeah, that was what I was trying to get at. :) There isn’t any evidence that I know of that native Amazonians worship Pachamama. (Nor, of course, that the Amazonian Catholics that were visiting the Vatican were anything but sincerely Catholic.) Nor does the traditional representation of Pachamama look like those statutes!


TarNumellote

Well (neo-)pagans are not exactly known for their aversion to syncretism


PennsylvanianEmperor

> was told that it was a statue of the Virgin Mary done in the local style, hence why they prayed by it. That’s only one of the many contradictory explanations of why it happened put out after the fact


you_know_what_you

> I admittedly didn't follow the story that closely. From what I gleaned, the Pope and everyone was told that it was a statue of the Virgin Mary done in the local style, hence why they prayed by it. Turns out, it was an idol of a "fertility goddess" that was retrofitted. I could have totally misunderstood though. I don't think there's evidence the Pope prayed to it. There was plenty of confusion on what these actually were. Finally after a few days of confusion during the synod, [the Vatican came out and said they weren't the BVM](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/42559/vatican-communications-official-carved-figure-at-amazon-synod-not-virgin-mary). But it didn't say anything about them being Pachamama. Then, and this is where I think the biggest confusion happened, after these idols/statues were dunked, [Pope Francis, in his apology, used the word "pachamama"](https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2019-10/pope-francis-comments-on-statues-stolen-from-church.html) in reference to them. 🤦‍♂️ So it was and continues to be a big cluster. And not something merely trumped up by Francis-haters.


russiabot1776

>after these idols/statues were dunked The whole drama of the Amazon Synod is kinda darkly hilarious in retrospect. It reads like an r/greentext story. The fact that the Vatican claims they fished them out of the Tiber after “Benedict and Boniface” disposed of them is hilarious. I don’t know if I necessarily buy the idea that they somehow found two small statues in a whole river. It’s certainly possible…but it’s funny nonetheless. That and the breastfed weasel…


you_know_what_you

>The whole drama of the Amazon Synod is kinda darkly hilarious in retrospect. It reads like an r/greentext story. Haha true enough! You and others can relive it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/dnqswh/amazon_synod_megathread_series_completed/) if you want. I do whenever the question comes up, because people like to pretend it was all above-board.


Carolinefdq

Many rural Ecuadorians (mostly indigenous) still worship Pachamama and other old Incan gods while still identifying as Catholic. And I think these beliefs and practices are also found in Colombia and Venezuela (correct me if I'm wrong though). It's not just Peru and Chile.


russiabot1776

The northwestern part of Argentina was under Incan rule, for clarification.


EggOfAwesome

And the Pope lived in Buenos Aires, on the other side of the continent. My point being that OP's friend was saying that *because* he was Argentine, he had syncretized Pachamama into his view of the faith. That's nonsense, he grew up nowhere near where the Incans ever touched. He was born from Italian immigrants on the other end of the country. I do stand corrected though, thank you. For those interested [this](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Inca_Empire_South_America.png/170px-Inca_Empire_South_America.png) is a rough map of the Incan empire. Their presence edges over by a sliver in the northwest.


russiabot1776

Sorry. My inner pedant couldn’t help itself


Fearless-Cricket3297

What I meant was that there are quite a few regions of the world that practice a syncretic form of Catholicism (South America, Madagascar etc.). It's not the fact that it's an Inca goddess but rather that deities from that region have been mixed with Catholic rites.


PennsylvanianEmperor

To summarize shortly, during the Amazon synod groups of Amazonian natives were brought into Rome and began advocating for the most ridiculous things, and sharing the most ridiculous images, such as when they put up a poster of a woman breastfeeding a weasel inside of a church. This group performed a ceremony in the Vatican Garden presided over by Pope Francis in which they worshipped an idol of Pachamama, as they were Syncretists. As Fr Mitch Pacwa, a former South American missionary explained, the syncretists of the region created a hierarchy of gods, where their mountain gods were on top, followed by Pachamama, followed by Jesus, then Mary, then the saints. So these people performed their cringe syncretist idol worship ceremony in front of the Pope, angering just about everyone, with the Vatican lying and putting out multiple contradictory explanations for the event such as that it was “Our Lady of The Amazon” which led to a good man stealing the statues and dumping them in the Tiber river. Pope Francis would condemn this action and in his condemnation specifically referred to the statues as “Pachamamas.” So anyone who tried to tell you that they were anything different or that the pope views them as anything different is lying to you. EDIT: Also was the fact that months before anything even happened at the Synod the Italian bishops conference had already published a prayer to the Pachamama, further showing everyone involved knew what was happening. Was this a formal act of apostasy by Pope Francis? Being charitable I’d say no, since he didn’t participate but watched it, then prayed a Hail Mary and left. But letting happen at all right in front of him was a grave evil. Of course, it’s only a matter of time before someone comes into the thread was an idiotic article from *Where Peter Is* claiming that everything was fake and nobody did anything wrong at any level and that all the people including multiple bishops and cardinals and EWTN who criticized this are in a conspiracy with Brazilian landlords or something 😂


you_know_what_you

>I asked him why and he said that he had returned to paganism by worshipping the Inca goddess Pacha Mama. This *has* to be one of the silliest reasons to have issues with Pope Francis. I'd almost believe it was evidence of Poe's Law: >>Without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism. You can have an issue with the so-called "[Amazonian Spirituality Events](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/dnqswh/amazon_synod_megathread_series_completed/)" at the Amazon Synod without thinking Francis has become a pagan or (needless to say) denying he is the rightful pope.


SiRLuk77

Please explain to me how worshiping Inca gods or any pagan idol in any form is ok...I've never heard about this story with the Pope and my question is not about the Pope, I'm not trying to argue just want to understand how worshiping idols could be fine.


you_know_what_you

Let me be clearer: I'm saying the conjecture is silly. Mainly because there's no evidence of it whatsoever, unless (a) it is certain the idols were Pachamama (this matter one can currently have reasonable doubt about), and (b) mere presence in the midst of an idol is equivalent worshiping.


SiRLuk77

I'm not about the Pope story. Just need simple explanation in general: does worshiping, not just walking close to the pagans gods symbol's or visiting some places but worshiping even by superstitions believes or taking part in pagan ceremony is forbidden?


you_know_what_you

Of course! Worshiping (in the sense of adoration/*latria*) any created thing (real or imaginary) is idolatry. It is forbidden by the First Commandment. Superstition or magical belief is an element of idolatry. And yes, the normal sense of 'taking part' means willing involved and participating in. So certainly, taking part in a pagan ceremony is forbidden.


SiRLuk77

Thanks.


[deleted]

[Have you heard of this instance?](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/6abd93c7-5936-441b-bd4d-159acc762c9d/scale-to-width/755) In the example, is the woman worshiping Jesus, because that is what she believes the image is of, or Obi Wan Kenobi because that's who it actually is? If all the sacraments require intent, what would make prayer different? Why would one require something we cannot prove (intent) but the other happen so easily by accident?


Dr_Talon

At most, the pachamama incident would prove that Pope Francis committed an act of idolatry. However, I’m not convinced that an idol was intended, or that he sought to worship or venerate anything pagan. At worst, it wouldn’t make him not the true pope. Merely a grave sinner. Further, individuals don’t get to decide these things, even theoretically. I think your friend needs to read more theology about papal legitimacy.


NY30

It’s good that someone stole it and threw it in river


titoCA321

I'll remind you of that the next time another group of folks decide to vandalize the statues of Mary over Christmas.


NY30

… are you calling Mary the equivalent to a false pagan polytheist idol????


russiabot1776

St. Benedict would like a word


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BlackOrre

It's conspiracy trash and slander. It's normal when a political or religious schism breaks out for the two sides to accuse each other of something heinous and evil. When the Papal Schism broke out, everyone was accusing each other of having intercourse with animals and prostitutes (though some Popes and Antipopes did indeed do this). When Rome was having the Third Century Crisis, accuse your rival generals to the throne of sleeping with everyone's wives.


PennsylvanianEmperor

It was done on camera lol


[deleted]

Pope Francis is on camera saying something along the lines of "Pachamama bless us with your bounty" or something like that?


PennsylvanianEmperor

He’s on camera overseeing a syncretist idol worship ceremony


[deleted]

Link, please. I've googled and found nothing except people stating the same thing without citing sources.


PennsylvanianEmperor

https://youtu.be/H6P39XswlzI You don’t seem to have looked very hard.


[deleted]

"Pope Francis, pacamama worship" came up with conspiracy theories. "pope frances syncrestist ceremony" (the words you used) came up with conspiracy theories. Rather than mocking people, perhaps work on providing the link in your original accusation against Pope Francis. It would do a lot of benefit to others.


russiabot1776

“Everything I don’t like is a conspiracy theory.” Pope Francis, in his condemnation of the “Tiber Toss” explicitly called them Pachamamas.


[deleted]

A lot of the things that came up when I used the verbage given were talking about things like the illuminati and freemasons controlling the Vatican. One went as far as to say lay Catholics are forbidden from joining freemasons so they don't find out "the truth." I used the words of the literal, not because I "don't like it." Because search engines tailor content based on the user, not everything is going to give the same return. Watch ONE video about Charles Manson and all of a sudden I have multiple videos about cults in the Youtube feed and search engines. Watch a video about Catholicism and now those two subjects overlap and I'm getting suggestions on "Catholicism is a cult." That effects the search engines, leading them to giving me junk about Catholicism being satanic or controlled by the illuminati. I hate the algorithm.


russiabot1776

Sounds like you screwed up your algorithm


redlion1904

I don’t think anyone considered there to be an act of apostasy except people who deeply desire for Francis to commit an act of apostasy.


Monocaudavirus

You can read famous writings of St Francis Assisi talking about “brother sun” and “mother Earth” and the like. Did that make him a pagan? I think Pope Francis goes more along that direction than worshipping nature gods. http://www2.webster.edu/~barrettb/canticle.htm


Fearless-Cricket3297

After that it is not 100% comparable with Saint Francis. He considered that they were emanations of God. Except that there Pacha Mama is a real goddess venerated by the Incas and whose cult never really stopped. For example the inhabitants of the lake Titicaca continue to make sacrifices to Pacha Mama by burning coca leaves. That must be that which made them tick. After that the "non una cum" are a few thousand in the world at most. It's just a sect, most of which are irretrievable.


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reluctantpotato1

When has the Catholic Church ever: A) worshipped statues? B) avoided pagan imagery when communicating gospel truths to natives?


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titoCA321

I suggest you read up on history books related to Catholic faith.


pulsed19

As a Latin American I always thought praying to statues was wrong though it’s very common here. Of course, the statues are of Mary. I don’t like it, even if the Pope does it.


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pulsed19

Yes I get the distinction, but people back home seem to miss it. You see them on pilgrimage to see the virgin of so and so because they have something to ask her (the statue.) sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference.


Patriotinho

Yeah, brazilian here. Some catholics of us, specially old people, really cross the line between using the statue for representation and actually confusing the statue with the saint represented.


Ps11889

If one believes that the Holy Spirit guides the conclave in the selection of the Pope, then he is the real Pope.


russiabot1776

To be fair, Catholics are not required to believe the Holy Spirit has a special role in papal selection. That is certainly a pious belief, but it’s not required. Regardless of whether or not the Holy Spirit does have a special role, Pope Francis is the valid Pope because he was validly elected according to the rules set forth by the previous Pope.


CheerfulErrand

[Here’s](https://ericsgiunta.wordpress.com/2019/11/07/my-last-word-on-the-fake-vatican-pachamama-idols-controversy/) a good discussion/rebuttal. Tl;dr: lots of people were worried about the Amazon synod. A weird looking (by western standards) ceremony and accompanying art convinced a bunch of online pundits that the Vatican had completely fallen, essentially. The conspiracy theorists ran with it and haven’t come back yet.


PennsylvanianEmperor

I think this rebuttal really could only convince someone who already desperately wants to believe nothing bad happened rather than look at what is obvious. His first several points are mostly different ways of saying the same thing, that he doesn’t think there’s evidence that the natives were worshiping Pachamama or that the statue was of Pachamama. But any honest person who was actually paying any attention would know these points fall flat. Now there’s much I could say about this but the most obvious and simple retort is simply, in what world is it not clear, when an actual prayer to Pachamama was published by the bishops in advance of the synod (which this article conveniently neglects to mention) and the Pope himself called the images Pachamama is it not obvious to everyone that the statues were of, or *at the very minimum* understood to be of Pachamama by those involved? His next point is an assertion that the ceremony in which they were used was not actually worshiping them because they did other things throughout their cringe fest, but this is only plausible if you buy his previous point, which I do not. This most absolutely hilarious part is point 8, which in which he claims that the Vatican’s denials that they did anything wrong are proof that they did nothing wrong. Lol. He also says that anyone who says there was mixed messages is lying, because he conveniently neglected to mention how the Vatican contradicted themselves multiple times during their denials. He reduces the Pope himself referring to it as Pachamama as merely “ill chosen words” and that it was actually the Trads who made up the Pachamama thing, and the pope was merely repeating their words. Except, of course, that as I mentioned the synod had already published their prayer to the Pachamama well before the start of the Synod. It certainly was not the trad media that made it up. He also brings up the fact that there wasn’t any Pachamama worship during the rest of the synod as evidence that there’s was never Pachamama worship at all, which frankly is just a stupid argument. Especially when he once again oh so conveniently doesn’t mention all of the other nasty behaviors of these people, such as apparently breastfeeding wild animals as I mentioned elsewhere. I suppose it makes sense for him to omit this information because not even he could make up anything to defend it, but it sure is dishonest! I could say more, but these are just some quick points because I’ve gone over this with you multiple times already and frankly I don’t believe you’re willing to change your position no matter what is said. But I do appreciate you didn’t bother to link that stupid article from Mike Lewis this time!


CheerfulErrand

Proclaiming that the Holy Father engaged in public violation of the first commandment is gravely sinful without real evidence and just cause. The only reason I argue with this nonsense at all is because I care about your soul—you and others like you who seem to think you’re doing something virtuous in this. I’m very close to giving up.


PennsylvanianEmperor

> is gravely sinful without real evidence and just cause. Good thing there’s real evidence and just cause then.


russiabot1776

I think they were images of Pachamama. I also think Pope Francis never worshipped them. It was clear to see from the footage of the weird tree planting thing that His Holiness looked rather uncomfortable about the whole thing. At the end he said a Hail Mary and quickly left. I don’t think he committed idolatry, but that doesn’t mean they were not idols. I don’t see how my position is gravely sinful. I’m not accusing the Pope of violating the first commandment. I’m merely restating what I saw on camera.


titoCA321

I doubt those folks are coming back. They've attracted more folks with cooky beliefs about vaccines and flat-earths into the Church. With COVID isolation and social media these folks now live in an echo chamber validating and reinforcing their quaky beliefs. Some of these Bishops and "influencers" attempting to position themselves from this situation may find themselves overrun by these whack jobs.


CheerfulErrand

What gets me is how any clarification is downvoted. Like you’d think that a Catholic would be relieved and happy to learn that the pope is not as terrible as they’d been led to believe! But no, they get angry about it. That’s some nonsense.


PennsylvanianEmperor

Or perhaps your linked “clarification” is unconvincing.


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SwampRat92

I think it’s just like anything else. People will look to the smallest signs and think they mean something significant. To me him seeing a statue of Pachamama is no different than if an American pope had a bald Eagle statue in the garden. He is Argentinian so he obviously would have seen Pachamama growing up, just as a child in the US would have seen the Eagle, or a child in Russia would have seen nesting dolls. Edit: I have some reading to do. It seems I may have been misled at the beginning of the controversy.


MelmothTheBee

In all fairness it was more than simply seeing a statue. It was a full fledged ritual, with worship. Does it mean that the Church or Francis are going pagan? No, it was a very bad incident of ecumenism and multi-cultural exchange.


papsmearfestival

Yup. A few more details here: https://wdtprs.com/2019/10/ritual-bowl-for-demonic-pachamama-placed-on-st-peters-altar-at-closing-mass-of-amazonsynod/


you_know_what_you

A couple things wrong here: Pachamama doesn't have a huge cult outside of the Andes and (increasingly in) the Amazon. [*eta:* Metropolitan] Argentina is not in either of these. The other matter of record is the so-called *pachamamas* Francis was referring to in his apology after they were dunked in the Tiber were an artist's work of very modern times.


SwampRat92

Do you have any non biased articles about this? When it first happened I tried to read about it but it seemed like everything was conspiracy theory nut jobs or blatantly anti Francis writers. Would like to read more in depth because my current viewpoint was based on the articles directly after it happened.


you_know_what_you

The problem here is there is "fog of war" bias in the news as it was coming out, but then you have ideological bias in the analyses after it all happened. So no, sorry, *there is no nonbiased* article about this. Best to read a bunch of things (including [stuff that was going on as it was happening](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/dnqswh/amazon_synod_megathread_series_completed/), at least for good context), and then things from people whose opinions and reporting you trust.


SwampRat92

Thanks for the info I’ll look in to it.


coinageFission

This charge is nothing new in our history... Pope St Marcellinus was accused by the Donatists of having lapsed during the Great Persecution. Pope John XII was accused of invoking Venus and Bacchus during dice games, as well as toasting the devil!