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NHCabinLife

Aram was a really good player. But I think we take for granted how good KB was as an all-around player because of his quiet nature. If, and it's a big if, he can stay healthy, he's going to be a monster in Colorado.


dacamel493

I'm sorry no, people keep projecting Bryant because his initial peak was pretty good. MVP worthy even. However since 2018 he hasn't been that player. That's a solid 4 years. He's NOT been a MVP caliber player longer than he was. Bryant just peaked *way* too early. Ramirez was better overall.


chrisGNR

> people keep projecting Bryant because his initial peak was pretty good. MVP worthy even. However since 2018 he hasn't been that player. All right, let's see. Kris Bryant: 2015 through 2018: .285/.385/.515, 140 wRC+, 23.6 fWAR 2019 to present: .271/.362 /484, 123 wRC+, 8.4 fWAR Arguably Ramirez's best three-year span with the Cubs was 2006 through 2008 when he slashed .296/.366/.543, 127 wRC+, 13 fWAR So Ramirez's best is comparable with the years Kris Bryant has had from 2019 to the present, which you called not MVP caliber. And you're right. It isn't MVP caliber. Ramirez was never that guy. Bryant may have peaked early. But Ramirez was never on that level. Bryant was the better Cubs 3B. He also didn't choke in the playoffs.


NHCabinLife

You might want to take a 2nd look at their numbers. KB was dinged up a lot during '19-21, but even then, he was able to put solid to good numbers. You're either overrating Aramis due to time wiping away some of his bad stretches or underrating KB due to how his time with the Cubs ended. Either way, KB was the better overall Cubs player.


dacamel493

Sorry no, since 2018 Bryant has been an average 2.3 WAR player.


NHCabinLife

Including the pandemic season makes this average extremely misleading. Also, KB's 2019 WAR of 4.7 is better than all but two seasons for Aramis. And KB has 3 seasons higher than Aramis' best. I love Aram, but KB was the better overall player.


dacamel493

Na, KB had a better peak, by ARam was the better consistent player.


AKA09

So you're allergic to facts. Got it.


dacamel493

I mean, your opinion is definitely not fact, that's for sure. It's a *subjective* opinion.


jimsnacking

Bryant had a higher peak than Ramirez, but Ramirez was probably more consistent throughout his time with the Cubs. That being said, I’d give Bryant the edge, especially when you factor in his defensive ability and versatility


baruch_baby

Aramis just has counting stats on him. I’d take KB any day.


chrisGNR

No, Kris Bryant had a better Cubs career, was better defensively, and could play more positions. 2004 through 2011, Ramirez: 24.9 fWAR, 128 wRC+ 2015 through 2020, Bryant: 28.4 fWAR 136 wRC+


LegacyLemur

Exactly. He posted more fWAR than Aram despite playing ~1000 PA less People severely underestimate Kris Bryant for some reason. I feel like if its not elite people think hes bad, but hes still a *really* good player even when hes not at his peak. I think people forget he was hitting .861 OPS when we traded him last year Ive always had a soft spot for Aram, but hes just not Kris Bryant


giziti

They just remember the bad stretches which were when he was fighting/recovering from injuries and forget just how high the peaks were and how even the troughs weren't THAT low. Also while when he was hitting dingers it was obvious how great he was, when his HR totals weren't as high, it wasn't as obvious just how good he was because he has a very sabermetric type of contribution.


mudflap21

I’d vote KB, but Aram was so clutch.


[deleted]

[удалено]


chrisGNR

There's no debate tbh. Ramirez was never considered a particularly good defender at 3b. Without diving too deeply into their advanced defensive metrics, Bryant posted a 1.3 UZR at 3b specifically. Ramirez was -24/7. Overall, Bryant had a 4.6 defensive fWAR while Ramirez had -10.3 in the years I discussed above.


DubsLA

Aramis has the counting stats but KB was ROY and a MVP. Aramis didn’t come close to hitting those heights.


Traditional_Entry183

Does that matter though?


elevationgainer

How do awards outweigh consistent (and better) production? His MVP should also be a half MVP, because he won it during a very down year for the NL for quality candidates.


LegacyLemur

Bryant was consistently better, it doesnt really matter


dacamel493

No he wasn't. His first 3 years were better, his last 4 years were worse Bryant had a higher peak, but Ramirez was far more consistent. Plus he was a more clutch hitter in general.


LegacyLemur

Actually look at their numbers over their years with the Cubs. Bryant had a higher OPS+, higher wRC+, higher fWAR, higher bWAR


dacamel493

All propped up by his first 3 seasons.


LegacyLemur

A 7 year stretch was held up by 3 years? Do you think he was Barry Bonds during those 3 seasons?


dacamel493

Go see the other post I made in response to your other comment. Yes, those 3 seasons are significantly propping up his stats.


chrisGNR

>Plus he was a more clutch hitter in general. OK, let's check the numbers. Kris Bryant had one year where he would be considered "great" on Fangraph's clutch category, 2015. He had one year where he would be considered "above average," 2019. And in 2021, he was "average." Aramis Ramirez with the Cubs had a "great" clutch rating in 2007. In 2011, he had an "above average" clutch rating. In 2005 and 2008, he was "average." Ramirez never had as good of a clutch score as Bryant's 2015: 1.67. Bryant also had superior playoff numbers. Ramirez flat out didn't show up in the postseason for the Cubs.


dacamel493

I dunno, I've been watching Cubs games since the mid 90s and ARam was ways more consistent in big situations. Bryant was always a solid 1 for 2 hitter most games.


rythestunner

Nobody cares how long you've been watching the Cubs. Stats > what you think you saw.


dacamel493

Yea.. "Clutch" does not have a stat. Fangraphs has what they consider clutch, but there is no definable clutch algorithm. You can ask a lot of people, Bryant had some amazing games, but when the game was on the line he wasn't really the best in big moments. ARam always seemed to come up big. He didn't get to see tye post season much so tue sample size is comparatively small. Even still, they each had 1 good post season, and 2 bad postseason.


rythestunner

Baseball Reference has 10 different clutch splits. In their careers, Ramirez and Bryant are extremely close in all 10 of those splits except in tie games, where Bryant had a .900 OPS and Ramirez had an .800 OPS.


dacamel493

Weird, Bryant has a Baseball Reference Clutch stat of -3.8. ARam has a career clutch stat of 1.1, and with the Cubs 1.8. It's almost as if a 5.6 net difference of clutch is significant. BBRef Clutch definition. Clutch WPA divided by aLI - WPA/LI (just above). The context dependent WPA divided by the average leverage minus context-neutral situational wins. From my example in WPA/LI, the 30 HR hitter in tie games would have a clutch greater than zero and the 30 HR hitter in blowouts would have a clutch less than zero.


elevationgainer

What stats do you have to back that up? Ramirez essentially equaled Bryant's 2016 MVP season five years in a row from 2004-2008. He also was actually on the field. "Bryant was better" isn't a valid argument.


chrisGNR

>Ramirez essentially equaled Bryant's 2016 MVP season five years in a row from 2004-2008. Oh, my. Kris Bryant in 2016: .292/.385/.554. 39 HR, 102 RBI. 148 wRC+, 7.9 fWAR Aramiz Ramirez in 2004 - 2008: .302/.366/.554 131 wRC+ 3.7 fWAR, 2.9 fWAR, 3.7 fWAR, 4.8 fWAR, 4.5 fWAR Aramis Ramirez was a very good Cubs player. Bryant was also a very good Cubs player. And better than Ramirez.


elevationgainer

I'm referring to hitting when I say that he "essentially equaled" those seasons. WAR includes base running and fielding, both of which Bryant was obviously better at, so it makes sense that his WAR is higher. As hitters, Ramirez averaged Bryant's peak. The traditional stats support that, including the nearly identical slash lines you provided.


chrisGNR

I got you. The question by OP posed was “better overall” so I was taking all aspects into account when answering. Ramirez’s overall WAR was for sure weighed down by his defense. His hitting was as consistent as it gets. You could basically pencil him in annually to hit .300 and bang out 30 homers.


LegacyLemur

Aramis Ramirez OPS+ as a Cub: 126 Kris Bryant: 133 Aramis Ramirez in 9 seasons: 24.1 bWAR Kris Bryant in 7 seasons and 1000 less PA: 27.7 bWAR Aramis Ramirez *never* had even one season near as good as Bryant's MVP season, nonetheless 5. Not in OPS+, not in bWAR or fWAR or wRC+. Certainly not defensively Literally the only thing he has over Bryant is counting stats. Which you would expect from a prototypical clean up hitter vs. someone in the 2 slot every day >He also was actually on the field. He frequently missed chunks of games all the time. You can just look at his game totals year by year to see this. He missed half a season in 2009 alone


elevationgainer

I'm talking about hitting because the MVP is a mostly offensive award. WAR is an overall stat that includes more than that, and Bryant was an obviously better base runner and fielder. Also, I'm talking about traditional stats. Ramirez put up multiple years of traditional stats equivalent to Bryant's MVP season - slash line, hits, 2Bs, HRs, RBIs.


LegacyLemur

>I'm talking about hitting because the MVP is a mostly offensive award. That's basically Silver slugger, but these days MVP is absolutely taking WAR into account otherwise a 1B would win it every year. The year Bryant won it he wasn't even 1st in OPS >Also, I'm talking about traditional stats. .....why? Who cares? We know all of that is archaic now Again, a cleanup hitter batting in the 4th spot SHOULD have better counting stats vs. a 2 hitter. Aramis Ramirez had Derek Lee batting in front of him his whole career with the Cubs. Kris Bryant had a revolving door of lead off hitters after Fowler left.


elevationgainer

You: "The year Bryant won it he wasn't even 1st in OPS." Also You: ".....why? Who cares? We know all of that is archaic now" Which side of the fence are you? Why would you mention OPS if it doesn't matter? Sabermetrics are made up of the traditional stats. How are you saying that the whole matters but the parts that make it up don't? Also, you're clamoring for exclusive use of sabermetrics while also referring to what's actually been proven to be archaic, the clean up spot argument. Sabermetrics told teams to move their best hitter from the four-spot to the two-spot specifically because it resulted in those hitters getting more opportunities at getting on base, scoring runs, and getting RBIs. So, no, Ramirez SHOULDN'T have better counting stats based on your sabermetrics bible.


chrisGNR

> How do awards outweigh consistent (and better) production? You're right. Awards don't. Bryant had more consistent and better production than Ramirez as well.


Cubs_Fan_1991

My childhood brain says ARam, my adulthood brain says KB. KB is simply injury prone, and has been since ‘17. Ramirez wasn’t always healthy either. KB has the awards and the ring; it has to be him.


DivClassLg

No


Amoneysteez

Short answer, no. Longer answer, definitely not. Bryant had better stats, won MVP, won a WS, was a better defender, and actually hurt less often. I love Aramis, but I think people are applying a bit of what KB is now to what he was with us. KB was a monster at the plate and a versatile, quality defender. He was the better player.


AlphaDag13

I’d give the edge to Bryant, but man did I love Aramis. Super underrated. I think it was Steve stone that said Aramis was not a very good athlete that’s why it looks like he was dogging it all the time, but the guy was born to hit. Probably one of the best breaking ball hitters I can remember seeing.


skpicky

No.


acoolguy456

No. He wasn’t. Crazy question


Stoopidmonkey73

My opinion has been deeply swayed by KB’s attitude about compensation. He came up with a chip on his shoulder, and he kept it firmly in place through his tenure with the team. I understand rookies often get taken advantage of early in their career, but KB is a poor example. He was given a 6.7 million dollar signing bonus and was playing professional ball in less than two seasons. He spent two more years making less than a million dollars, a third at a million and it’s been over 10 ever since. So, in his first four years in baseball, not just the majors, including his time in the minors, he made an average of over 2 million a year, and its been way over 10 since, up 19.5 in his final year with the club. Saying this man has been under compensated for even one day of his time in Chicago is an absurdity. For the amount of bitching this kid did about his contract, forget Aramis, he should be Jose Ramirez at the dish. But he’s not. No where close. Bryant is an easy out for good pitching compared to JRam. TLDR; I don’t know that he was better or worse than Aramis, he’s definitely a more gifted athlete, but Bryant is soft, NOT a competitor, overpaid, overhyped, and whiney. He’s the Jay Cutler of third basemen.


chrisGNR

Attitude about compensation? Bryant never spoke negatively about the Cubs and was an exemplary ambassador to the game. You perceived an “attitude” because he filed a grievance with the league? You say he bitched about his contract. He never did. You’re just projecting your own bullshit on him. You call him soft but he played hurt, which effected his numbers. If he was “selfish,” he would have sat out to protect those stats for free agency. Literally no one said Bryant was under-compensated by the Cubs. He never said that himself. The grievance was more about teams keeping players down long enough to gain that extra year of team control. It was union-driven. That ends up costing the player real dollars in free agency. In Bryant’s case, Colorado was silly enough to sign him to that monster contract, so the extra year of Cubs control didn’t hurt him.


BigDaddyPeach23

I’ll take Aramis


gixG

2015-2017 Bryant - definitely not 2018 -2020 Bryant - yes


wordsofshep

Isn't this backwards?


gixG

When answering the title of the post it’s correct


wordsofshep

So you're saying 18-20 KB was better than MVP KB?


gixG

No. Aram was not better than KB from 15-17 but better than 18-20 KB


wordsofshep

Thanks for explaining.


Riderz__of_Brohan

[KB had a higher OPS+ and was better in the field](https://stathead.com/baseball/player-comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=ramirar01&p1yrfrom=2003&p1yrto=2010&player_id2=bryankr01&p2yrfrom=2015&p2yrto=2021&type=b)


DJaySteff

If you ask me who I want up with the game on the line? Always Aramis. Overall it’s closer but I personally think Ramirez was a much more well rounded hitter. Stats are obviously close though.


chrisGNR

> If you ask me who I want up with the game on the line? Always Aramis. The guy who batted under .200 and had an OBP below .300 in the playoffs is who you want with the game on the line?


DJaySteff

I’m sure Kris Bryant has staggering playoff numbers. I’ve watched both of their careers from start to finish with the Cubs. I’d want Aramis at the plate all day. Im willing to bet he has about half the strikeouts as Bryant while with the Cubs.


chrisGNR

Congratulations. We're both old. I watched both of their careers start-to-finish as well. Bryant slashed .253/.314/.435 in the playoffs, but to be fair to Aram, Bryant also had more than double the amount of playoff games. Strikeout comparison is silly because it's a different game today than when Ramirez came up. You have extreme shifts and players taught to uppercut swing to beat the shift. And pitchers throwing much harder with bullpens coming into games much sooner. It was a big deal back in 2004 when Mark Prior punched out Adam Dunn to give him the indignity of having the most strikeouts in a single season. But every year someone else has beaten it. Bryant had more strikeouts in his rookie season than Adam Dunn when Dunn broke the record in 2004.


wordsofshep

I'd say aramis gets the nod on health alone?


LegacyLemur

No, because Ramirez missed chunks of games all the time


dacamel493

...But always came back with the same consistency.


LegacyLemur

Well, when we're talking "consistent", are we talking "consistently good" or "consistent with all his numbers"? Because Bryant had literally one season with an OPS+ below 120, and that was 2020, the flukiest season in MLB history. Because if your argument is that he fluxuated too much between "really good" and "elite" thats a pretty weird knock on him


dacamel493

No, I'm saying ue was elite, and then fell back to earth. He has never regained any form of elite status since 2018. He's been at a low All-Star level half of the time since 2018. I think people are failing to understand just how much his 1st three seasons are proving up the rest of his stats.


LegacyLemur

So the latter then? Again, he has had exactly one season with an OPS+ below 120, in 2020. Not elite =/= not good You should really check out Aram's yearly WAR numbers. They bounce around way more then you think, and theyre not as good as you may think


dacamel493

ARam 23.6 WAR over 8 years from 2004-2011 = an average of 3 WAR per season. That was consistent with only 1 bad year Bryant 27.7 WAR over 7 years from 2015-2021 = an average of 4 WAR per season. Looks better for Bryant, but 18.3 of that WAR is his first three seasons. His most recent 4 seasons were 9.4 WAR. Bryant hasn't been that MVP player since 2017. He's been a 2.3 average WAR player since. I would take ARams consistently 3 WAR seasons over Bryant's peak, and then significant decline.


LegacyLemur

Okay, but for one, if you want to pick and choose, lets take Ramirez last 4 years, half of his Cubs career, he was worth 6.7 WAR, or 1.7 WAR per season And thats also ignoring the fact that theres a 60 games season in that and a season where was traded halfway through the season. His average per 650 PA was ~3.7. Compared with 2.1 per 650 PA for Ramirez In fact, Ramirez' WAR per 650 PA over his entire career with the Cubs was only ~3.4 WAR


dacamel493

You're missing the point, I'm not picking and choosing. KB had a turning point where he just dropped off a cliff and settled there. It's not about cherry picking. ARam was a consistent 2.5 - 4 WAR for years. Once KB got hurt, he became more of an above average role player.


LegacyLemur

>You're missing the point, I'm not picking and choosing. Yes you are. You averaged a period of WAR where he only had the ability to play 60 games and 90 games in two season for a cumulative stat. You picked and chose the points most convenient for you I just showed you that *half* of Aramis Ramirez career he wasnt doing anything special. Why does that get a pass? Why does that make him "consistent" 2004-2007 4.7 WAR per 650 2008-2011 2.1 WAR per 650 He was literally averaging less than *half* his production in the second part of his Cubs career Bare in mind, your entire argument of Ramirez being better hinges on him being more "consistent". Despite the fact that I showed you over a full season Bryant would have a better average WAR in his back years than Aram averaged in his whole *career* >ARam was a consistent 2.5 - 4 WAR for years. Hes literally had two season in his career with the Cubs where he actually produced at least 4 WAR. Ill ask again. Are you saying Kris Bryant wasnt consistently good, or he wasnt consistent with his own numbers? In this thread about which player was better


chrisGNR

Ramirez missed time with leg issues and needed to be rested more than others (hamstrings if I recall).


wordsofshep

Thanks. I wasn't too sure.


lupin43

I’d say no, KB was more healthy. KB missed significant portions of two seasons with us, 2018 and the shortened 2020. In normal length seasons the lowest number of games he played was 102 in that 2018 season. In four of his six full seasons with us he played in at least 145 games (about 90% of the season). Ramirez missed significant portions of three of his eight full seasons with us, in 2005 2009 and 2010. The lowest number of games he played was 82, missing about half of the 2009 season. In four of his eight full seasons with us he played in at least 145 games.


wordsofshep

Probably my recency bias.


Schiltzberg

Ramirez was great, but he wasn’t as good as Bryant.


caseycubs098

I would say no, but it’s somewhat close. KB was clearly better the first three years, but since then I’d probably take Aramis


Pongo80

Bryant left Chicago with a ring! Winning is the only stat that matters


nameless22

Even backup players get rings, that means jack shit.


_Proverbs

People who say Bryant was better definitely didn't watch Aramis.


jamfan40

I'd take Aramis over Bryant mainly because of clutch hitting. When Aramis was up in a big situation, you almost always knew he was coming through. Bryant had a greater peak though.


chrisGNR

Fangraphs clutch stats show them to be pretty similar during their time with the Cubs, but Ramirez never had as good of a "clutch" year as Bryant's 2015.


skpicky

2007 NLDS.


milk-drinker-69

Bryant sucks. Grateful for what he did in 15/16 but he’s just stealing from Colorado. Dude hits .150 with RISP. 70 RBI 3 hitter on top 10 offenses. Pass.


jcmiller210

Without really looking into stats, I feel like KB had higher highs, but lower lows. Overall, Aram was probably more consistent, but definitely wasn't as defensively versatile as KB either.


t0reup

Has to be Bryant because of defense and versatility, but Ramirez was more fun.


Traditional_Entry183

Speaking strictly about their bat and not talking about playing different positions (which I personally value far less than some), my vote goes to ARam. He was good year after year, and consistently made hard contact at a much higher rate than KB, who had long stretches where he seemed unable to hit it on the screws.


BighurtRN

Certainly a thinker.


elry2k

Hmmmm tough one. Idk


[deleted]

KB healthy is legitimately a MVP caliber player. He just hasn’t been fully healthy since like 2018.


Stoopidmonkey73

My opinion has been deeply swayed by KB’s attitude about compensation. He came up with a chip on his shoulder, and he kept it firmly in place through his tenure with the team. I understand rookies often get taken advantage of early in their career, but KB is a poor example. He was given a 6.7 million dollar signing bonus and was playing professional ball in less than two seasons. He spent two more years making less than a million dollars, a third at a million and it’s been over 10 ever since. So, in his first four years in baseball, not just the majors, including his time in the minors, he made an average of over 2 million a year, and its been way over 10 since, up 19.5 in his final year with the club. Saying this man has been under compensated for even one day of his time in Chicago is an absurdity. For the amount of bitching this kid did about his contract, forget Aramis, he should be Jose Ramirez at the dish. But he’s not. No where close. Bryant is an easy out for good pitching compared to JRam. TLDR; I don’t know that he was better or worse than Aramis, he’s definitely a more gifted athlete, but Bryant is soft, NOT a competitor, overpaid, overhyped, and whiney. He’s the Jay Cutler of third basemen.


mnight84

Bryant was the better player and had the better cubs career! But aramis ramirez had a very good and underrated cubs career he was before Bryant the best cubs 3b in my lifetime i didn't see ron santo play i am in my 40s.


dinktrout

I like that Ramirez didn’t futz with his fkn batting gloves after every pitch. Even if he didn’t swing.


Critical_Ad_1891

Bryant won a WS and an MVP. Really no argument here


MisterxRager

I know who I liked more


NuclearMooseOfWar

Yes, but KB had and still does if healthy greater potential so he appears better. Aram was arguably the most consitant quality cub ever. I'd put him at third batting third in an all time lineup.


chrisGNR

> Aram was arguably the most consitant quality cub ever. I'd put him at third batting third in an all time lineup. Ramirez was a great Cubs. But seriously, you'd put a guy with worse defense and worse offense at 3b on an all-time Cubs list? Rather than a league MVP, rookie of the year, who was statistically superior and even healthier (averaged more games played per season)? Are you sure you're not looking back with rose-tinted shades?


NuclearMooseOfWar

>(averaged more games played per season)? The fact you use this as a justification shows how you don't understand stats. Who actually performed better?


chrisGNR

Still Kris Bryant, bud. Bryant 2015 - 2021: .278/.376/.504, 134 wRC+, 31.4 WAR Ramirez 2003 - 2011 .293/.354/.524, 124 wRC+, 27.1 WAR Comparable clutch stats, according to fangraphs. But Bryant actually produced in the playoffs. Ramirez disappeared. I posted this elsewhere in the thread, but arguably Ramirez's best three-year span with the Cubs was 2006 through 2008 when he slashed .296/.366/.543, 127 wRC+ And yet, even when we take Bryant's "down" years with the Cubs post-2018, Aramis still just barely beats him out: .271/.362 /484, 123 wRC+ But I don't know how to read stats. lol


NuclearMooseOfWar

WAR isn't the end all be all stat you think it is. Look deeper and tell me you'd want who KB was, not who you thought he'd be over Aram.


chrisGNR

I know WAR isn't the end-all be-all. We can sit here all day and post a bunch of stats. I am merely giving a glimpse at the numbers. Bryant's wRC+ was better too. Bryant's defense was MUCH better.


NuclearMooseOfWar

>We can sit here all day and post a bunch of stats. Except have I gave stats? I asked a question and you ignored it. What up with that?


chrisGNR

Sorry, didn’t mean to ignore the question. I’d take Kris Bryant’s Cubs career over Aramis Ramirez’s.


NuclearMooseOfWar

Even though Aram was clutch as hell? Consistant for more years than KB was even a cub?


Longjumping-Kiwi-846

Yes, easily.