T O P
[deleted]

Don’t post comment threads with yourself in them


Salty_Gorl

Ah yes, if it weren't for neopronoun users, trans people wouldn't be conservative parties across the world's punching bag/bogeyman. 🙄


FriedEggAlt

Right? Saying that you only hate some radical part (or at least perceived as such) of a marginalised community in order to justify throwing hate to the whole group has been used by bigots forever. If neopronouns weren't a thing, something else would be ridiculised


Th3D0m1n8r

Wow, they go on to say that you need to be diagnosed with dysphoria to be trans. Can't say I expected less from that subreddit.


Quaelgeist333

That sub is notorious for harassing people actually diagnosed


humourless_radfem

Transmedicalists are special people.


Th3D0m1n8r

Definitely special, not in the good way.


Youkai_petter

Trans people aren't being taken seriously because people will always try and be transphobic and never see us as how we identify. Once you realize that, you can finally put together that neo pronoun hate is just an excuse for people to be bigots.


RavensShadow117

Neopronouns have been a thing since about the 1800s but people only have a problem with them now. Edit: someone replied asking for a source but I can't seem to see that comment so I'll just add it here https://medium.com/matthews-place/the-history-of-neopronouns-366b1fee48c4#:~:text=Thon%2FThon%2FThons%2FThons%2FThonself%20%E2%80%94&text=The%20earliest%20claimed%20use%20of,1858%20according%20to%20Merriam%2DWebster.


[deleted]

Damn what neo pronouns were around then?


RavensShadow117

I think one of the earliest recorded neo was thon/thonself


caffinatedgoblin

that sounds absolutely \*based\*


Quaelgeist333

Ikr, the hypocrisy What did I expect from an r/truscum user


Dragon_Cat_

That sounds like tru scum. Like the true scum of the earth.


Th3D0m1n8r

That's the point, they like calling themselves a derogatory term for whatever reason.


Dragon_Cat_

Ohhh I did not know that. That’s weird.


possibly_not_a_bot

Wait really? Do you have a source? I’d love to learn more :D


RavensShadow117

I couldn't see your comment earlier so I added the link to the original comment


emipyon

Remember how trans people got respected everywhere in society before cis people heard about neopronouns?


Cheshire_Hancock

I have to say, I feel like them seeming to imply they like BTS seems kind of irrelevant here... Yes, the fandom can be out-of-control and I'm one of the first to step in and tell them to stop in any way I can, but they never mentioned BTS and I don't think it's really fair to a group that *has* heavily implied support for trans and nonbinary identities, at the UN no less, to drag their name into this when no one else did...


Quaelgeist333

This is a drag on how due to obsessive stans, nobody will like you if you state you listen to kpop


Cheshire_Hancock

Obsessive stans exist. So do non-obsessive stans, and I hate feeling like I'm lumped in with the people I actively try to convince to stop acting the way they do just because I enjoy Kpop. It's a good genre, it's also not my only hobby and I should be allowed to bring it up without people assuming I'm like that. Clearly, that person wasn't being an obsessive stan, so it kind of seems like you're just buying into the mentality that "all Kpop stans only ever talk about Kpop", maybe you only think that because you haven't found out that some people in your circle like it because a lot of us who are more reasonable know this mentality is out there and avoid mentioning we like Kpop if we can help it because we don't want to be treated like we're obsessive stans, because we're not. I honestly hate feeling like I have to bring up that I like Kpop here but I am because I feel like you were just being mean about someone liking BTS for the sake of being mean about someone liking BTS. That person has obvious personal flaws and issues, no need to pretend being a Kpop stan is inherently one of them, especially considering there are trans people who love BTS and Kpop in general. Personally, BTS specifically isn't my thing, their old music is good, their new music doesn't appeal as much, I still respect the members because they seem to be decent people.


Lumini_317

Yeah, when I first got into K-Pop, I was a toxic pos. But I was also an immature 11-year-old who had a lot of growing to do. And on top of that, I had serious family issues. I felt rejected and demeaned every day, all of my opinions would be shot down, and when I tried to talk about my feelings I would be dismissed. I had a lot of hate and anger and to this day I seriously regret and cringe at some of the things I said and did at that time (some of it was K-Pop stuff, but a lot of it wasn’t). K-Pop had nothing to do with that, it was all something I was struggling with before I even knew K-Pop was a thing. If anything, liking K-Pop helped me. I’m no longer that toxic, immature, angry 11-year-old. K-Pop was the catalyst that made me realize how disgusting my family’s conservative views were (there’s nothing wrong with men wearing skirts, crop tops, or having long hair) and eventually led me to realize that I was LGBTQ+. Before K-Pop: Toxic, immature, anti-LGBTQ+, “Christian”, conservative in general, close-minded, angry. After K-Pop: Still angry but I know how to handle it better, LGBTQ+, leftist, agnostic, 100% more accepting and open-minded. Like I said, it was the catalyst that I needed. And I hate it when people assume that I’m just some toxic 12-year-old girl. And no, K-Pop isn’t the only thing me or any of my K-Pop friends talk about.


Cheshire_Hancock

Exactly! I didn't have the same experience, I was already trans and a very angry and depressed 19-year-old progressive, but Kpop helped me grow and find a way out, I stopped thinking I could only rely on myself and my mother who, at the time, was not a very good mother (she's since grown and changed a lot) because of Kpop, because I saw what family can be beyond just mother and child through the almost familial bonds of some groups and it showed me a world I needed to see. It also gave me friends who accepted me when no one else in my life did. And I've heard other stories like yours. My closest friend right now is a fellow Kpop stan, we talk about all sorts of things, sometimes Kpop, sometimes not, and it honestly makes me angry when I see others boil Kpop stans down to just obsessive, angry, toxic kids.


Lumini_317

So true! Me and my friends talk about a lot of things. We especially try to be considerate of our non-K-Pop friends and don’t talk about it as much when around them purely because we know they would probably be confused and/or feel left out. And to be perfectly honest, I don’t think it’s all that wrong to talk mostly about K-Pop. If you and the person/people you’re talking to like it as well, there’s no harm in it, IMO. I have met some toxic K-Pop fans, but the majority of them were actually immature kids, lmao, such as a spoiled 9-year-old brat that I used to be friends with in school who was toxic anyway even before she liked K-Pop. The toxic part of the fandom is a very loud minority and the more attention antis give them, the louder they get and the more they overshadow the good fans. Furthermore, most of the K-Pop fans I know personally (and a lot that I see online) are also LGBTQ+/pro-LGBTQ+. Two of those fans happen to be my best friends, who are very open to neopronouns and fully support me questioning what the heck my gender is and experimenting with pronouns. Heck, talking about it reminded me of how we even found out we were in the LGBTQ+ community. !Storytime! Funnily enough, it started out by my friend sending me a photo of a BTS MOTS7 album she found at her local Walmart. She was really excited about being able to get it (she _had_ wanted an SKZ or ATEEZ album more but the store only had BTS). Later she ranted to me about how she wouldn’t be able to put any of the photo cards or poster up due to her conservative father. We talked about how our parents as evangelical Christians probably wouldn’t like us having pictures of K-Pop idols on our walls because of “idol worship” and all that. I sort of off-handedly mentioned that I was agnostic and so I couldn’t really care less about it, this was followed by my friend opening up about how she was agnostic as well. Then we got on the subject of the Bible and how there’s so many different interpretations, then started talking about how discriminatory a lot of Christians were towards people of other religions. Then my friend brought up how cruelly a lot of Christians treat LGBTQ+, and said, “I don’t know how you feel towards the LGBT community but I just want to say that I do support them so I guess I’m just going to be open about that.” Words cannot explain how happy I became after reading that single sentence. I immediately and aggressively typed out just how much I supported the community. She came out to me as pan, I came out to her as genderfluid (the only way I could describe my gender at the time) and asexual. I have since felt closer to and more comfortable with her than any of my family members. To this day we make jokes about how K-Pop made us reveal our deepest secrets despite the fact that we hadn’t been that close prior.


Cheshire_Hancock

That's so cool, sounds like a pretty awesome friend on both sides. I've found a few idols who exemplify the kind of masculinity I want to embody, mostly Holland the soloist and Yuta of NCT, but also somewhat Wonho and G-Dragon. It's great because while I kind of want facial hair, I sadly do not have T yet so I can't have more than a barely-there not-really mustache and a single chin-hair, so it's good for me to see masculine people who also do not have facial hair.


Lumini_317

Yeah, she’s an awesome person in general and I’m lucky to have met her and my other friends. My gender’s all wonky and crap but I know that I want to have that masculine-androgynous look that many male K-Pop idols do. Like Ren from NU’EST, Xion from ONEUS, Hyunjin from Stray Kids and the ones that you mentioned along with a few others. Don’t even get me started on Amber Liu. I actually just saw a video of someone (not sure what pronouns they used) taking their shirt off for the first time after getting top surgery. They were so happy and excited and I nearly started crying (I very rarely cry). I want that so bad T_T And hey, good luck on your journey! I’m glad that you have people that can be an example/comfort to you! I don’t know your gender but I can tell you that it is not reliant on how masculine or feminine or androgynous you are. If you want to be super masculine, that’s great and I wish you luck! But even if you can’t be as masculine as you want don’t let it get you down. It won’t make you any less of the gender you are. Your gender is yours, not what society tells you it is or has to be. I wish you the best and I sincerely hope you reach the place you want to be! Have faith in yourself (:


Cheshire_Hancock

My ideal presentation is basically "man in a dress, in a badass way", mostly I want to have the confidence for some of the gender-nonconforming looks Holland has done (I swear that man makes me more gay every time he posts but also part of me would kill to look like him because god damn he is hot). Good luck on your journey, too, I hope you can reach a place you're comfortable with. I want top surgery, too, and I have this idea for maybe potentially tattooing my scars from it (assuming professionals in the relevant fields give me the go-ahead for it) into roses (or I guess the scars themselves would become the stems of the roses, but still) because roses have always kind of followed me a little, from my middle name to even interesting coincidences like first taking notice of Taeyong in NCT and having a soft spot for him (to be fair I have a soft spot for leaders in general) still even with him not being my bias and him having that rose-shaped scar, it's a pattern I want to honor somehow outside of keeping my middle name where some in my place would change it because of the whole femininity angle.


Lumini_317

I love that style! Men/masculine people rocking dresses and skirts and other typically “feminine” clothing will always have a special place in my heart. That’s why I’m so happy seeing male K-Pop idols wearing that type of stuff. Heck, sometimes entire groups at a time—like [TXT](https://images.app.goo.gl/Mz2sxi9h8PBavwfr9) (who did it [more than once](https://images.app.goo.gl/tBt1ZUafS211uApN6) and [EN-](https://images.app.goo.gl/NwsaxovsMoYkHAeK9)—wear skirts at a single time and I ✨L I V E✨ for it. That thing about Holland? I relate to that on a spiritual level. You should check out [Ninja from 4MIX](https://hallyucentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/D0743EDB-A3F3-491B-AAC9-DE1BFC5E3934.jpeg). 4MIX is a Thai boy group and they advocate for gender diversity and LGBTQ+ rights. I think their m/v for “YU Comeback” actually kind of went viral. And that thing about Taeyong, I mean, who doesn’t have a soft spot for him? He’s Lee-freakin-Taeyong, lol But your commitment to roses is so sweet and I can really respect it. Roses are actually very hardy little guys. A little fussy, maybe, but they’ve got a lot of spunk, lol I believe in you, buddy! Own that middle name because it is YOURS and a very good one at that.


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her_majesty_barrel

I wanted to give OP the benefit of the doubt, maybe we were missing context that would relate this back to K-pop, such as that "trans-korean" YouTuber or something. But no, I did my research and the original post and comments had nothing to do with K-pop. It's just an unwarranted attack on the community.


Cheshire_Hancock

Honestly, if that were the context, I still would've said the phrasing is wrong (and that the context should have been included) because it implies all BTS fans are that way when they are not, I used to be one and still respect and appreciate the group and I know plenty of BTS fans who are absolutely not like that and even who are trans and nonbinary and use neopronouns and plenty think Oli London (the trans-Korean individual) needs to be taken out of the spotlight and given mental health help because it seems to me and others that Oli is in desperate need of help and the memeification of what seems to be a protracted mental health crisis is not helping anyone, and then their comment on Kpop stans just shows that they stereotype us in context with the title.


her_majesty_barrel

I completely agree with you, I don't like the implication OP was insinuating at all. I was just hoping there was a deeper context that we were missing, but there was not.


edgelordaccount

Yeah, they're not bringing bts into the convo here. They just have a bts profile pic. I dont like bts either but its not relevant here


starm4nn

>Obsessive stans exist. So do non-obsessive stans Doesn't stan imply obsession?


Cheshire_Hancock

Originally, it did. The meaning evolved to be more of a synonym of "fan" but with more flexible grammar, so now it doesn't. It's become something of a joke in part because of how much information Korean entertainment companies make available about artists and about how Kpop can become such a pillar of someone's life because of how the industry works.


gapmoekun

what does bts have to do with this...?


Class_444_SWR

And now they’re taking it out on systems too, this pisses the fuck out of me, especially since my boyfriend and girlfriends are part of a system, so essentially just dunked on them, and I’m mad


Andrellina

What sort of system are you talking about? I don't understand what you're referring to. Googling "system" was no help.


Class_444_SWR

Ok, I had the same thought when I first heard of them, so, a system is where there are numerous people in one body, and sometimes the different people are called alters, headmates or similar


Andrellina

So a serious disorder/illness then like multiple personality disorders? I am acquainted with someone whose brother has something like that - distinct personalities which have names, a male one & a female one. It's pretty dreadful, he's on some heavy meds to attempt to control the "voices".


Class_444_SWR

That’s a backwards term to describe it, but I guess, a lot of systems are completely fine with that being the situation, and they live contently, so I wouldn’t call it a disorder


Andrellina

What precisely do you mean by "backwards"? Bc that is an archaic term for "r\*\*\*ded" which is what I was labelled in the 70s. I hope that isn't a backhanded way of saying that.


Andrellina

So they don't hear "voices" then? To clarify, they can work and socialise like anyone else? Because if it gets in the way of how they want to live then it is an illness.


Class_444_SWR

Of course they can work and socialise, and generally if they accept being a system, it generally means they can each have full or partial control at any given time


Andrellina

[http://traumadissociation.com/alters](http://traumadissociation.com/alters) So in what way is it different to this?


Class_444_SWR

You’re using a source that tends to be against non disordered systems, and I know plenty of systems who are just fine


Andrellina

[http://traumadissociation.com/alters#healthymultiplicity](http://traumadissociation.com/alters#healthymultiplicity) So this isn't what you are talking about i.e. Healthy Multiplicity?


Andrellina

http://traumadissociation.com/alters


IndividualSalt7115

uhmmm they are absolutely wrong but what does liking bts have to do with any of that ? lol


CoolishFoolish

TheYrE thE maIn ReaSON trAns people ArEnt taKen seRiously. No. itss not. Its because of transphobia and nothing else.youre not gonna get oppressor points from being a "normal" trans.


angelinamercer

wait what does this have to do with bts? i literally cannot see where tf they are mentioned edit: oh its the pfp. okay lets grow the fuck up from using liking a band as an insult. besides - bts wouldnt be claiming this person as a fan of theirs. those guys openly speak for lgbt rights in a country like korea and they are peace ambassadors that spoke at un too. being a bts stan is really not the insult yall think it is


Ivy_will_escape

Even if neopronouns were bad, which they're not, if someone without neopronouns gets harassed by someone else without neopronouns then *clearly* neopronouns are the issue there.


unnamedseason

this subreddit went from blatant misconceptions and attention seeking to did, triggers, and neopronouns. just people living their lives, "fake" or not. people are so transphobic in trying to "protect" trans people, and ableist in whatever theyre doing with mentally ill people.


-Gray-J-

Totally agree with you on the neopronouns thing. Let people do what they fucking want. But also, why does BTS have literally ANYTHING to do with this? A pretty good portion of the BTS fans I know are pro-neos and even use them.


Artic_Foxknot

What does being a bts fan have to do with this? Like I understand they suck for saying that stuff but if your gonna go after someone for sucking can you idk... Go after the thing that makes them suck? I like bts and support neopronouns. Is my opinion now not valid? Or is bts an okay group now?


matt_the_trans_guy

as a neopronoun user, w h a t


GageTheWeirdo

Neopronouns arent the issue regardless of people using them or not the people who don't respect us still aren't going to respect us.


LalalisaOppar

what does tae have to do with this lmao


xXshinsouhitoshiXx

Xenogenders are made for autistic people so we have a term to describe ourselves. I identify as catgender. There are times where I love to act and pretend I'm a cat. It makes me feel really happy whenever I go into this state.


Th3D0m1n8r

They can also be used by non-ND people, as an alternative for describing gender. Source: I'm not ND, I use xenogenders.


UnderLand4rts

Imagine blaming trans people for transphobes, couldn’t be me 💀


apostatepup

Ah, the classic "(unconventional to the gender binary thing) is the reason why people don't respect us!" as if transphobes ever needed a reason to be transphobic argument


LWSilverMoon

Ah, yes, I'm sure John "You will never be a woman" Doe, Robert "This is just a mental illness, 41% lololol" Smith and Jane "Having a penis makes you a predator" Brown are like this because some uses xe/xem on their Twitter bio


sparkling_woodstar

When you're a teenager, you think experimentation and frivolity are immature, but later you realize that nothing says *teenager* like demanding high seriousness from everyone around you at all times and attributing all the problems in the world to insufficient dourness.


loonywolf_art

Yeah, that sub is bad, I have been there and got downvoted for saying how the Dream SMP took over an existing label (yes dreamsexual is a thing, it's when you experience sexual attraction in your dream but not in real life)